Podiatrists in orthopedic groups - unfair treatment

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JewOnThis

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One of our residents is joining an orthopedic group, and she just so happened to put me down as a reference. After further research, I found out that this orthopedic group does not allow podiatrists to be partners.

A friend of mine is also in an orthopedic group, but gets treated like a second class citizen. His name is listed at the bottom of the faulty roster, while the orthopedics are listed in alphabetical order.

How do you guys feel about this?

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Not shocked.

In my opinion, it’s regional. Around me, ortho and pod get along very well. Big ortho group in area only has podiatrists for their lower extremity section.
 
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Not shocked.

In my opinion, it’s regional. Around me, ortho and pod get along very well. Big ortho group in area only has podiatrists for their lower extremity section.

I am not sure if it’s entirely regional. It seems to happen to a lot of podiatrists in ortho groups. There was a podiatrist that was hired on to assist in surgeries and see post op patients in a well known ortho group. His name wasn’t even listed on their website.
 
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I am not sure if it’s entirely regional. It seems to happen to a lot of podiatrists in ortho groups. There was a podiatrist that was hired on to assist in surgeries and see post op patients in a well known ortho group. His name wasn’t even listed on their website.
NY State does not allow MDs/DOs to partner with non MDs/DOs. I don't know how other states work. If the state allows md/dpm partnerships and the group doesn't then that is messed up.
 
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His name wasn’t even listed on their website.
Ouch....
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I just imagine orthopedic surgeons bring a lot more to the table money-wise. Unless they have a surgery center and the podiatrist is powering through surgeries there...

I'm sure there are exceptions but that's probably the trend they have seen in their practice--so making them a partner and sharing profits when they aren't pulling their weight (relatively speaking)...doesn't make as much business sense; really depends on a lot of things, including the regional atmosphere as stated above.
 
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One of our residents is joining an orthopedic group, and she just so happened to put me down as a reference. After further research, I found out that this orthopedic group does not allow podiatrists to be partners.

A friend of mine is also in an orthopedic group, but gets treated like a second class citizen. His name is listed at the bottom of the faulty roster, while the orthopedics are listed in alphabetical order.

How do you guys feel about this?
This is not shocking. I definitely believe its regional although I am sure it could happen in any orthopedic group in any state.

The question is if the money makes sense to the podiatrist in the group. If they are never able to partner and not get an equal share of profits that they are contributing to with DME, PT referrals, imaging then they need to ask themselves do they want to move on from that opportunity and jump into the job market which is absolutely terrible for podiatrists right now?

Most will just stick it out. Job market is terrible for podiatry. Every hospital job gets 400 applications. People can still get jobs but it is through word of mouth but those are few and far between.

It is just damn tough trying to find work that really pays you like he doctor you were trained to be.
 
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Your friend should shake those orthos hands and thank God every day for the opportunity to not be in a podiatry group.

Trying to work on our insurance contracts. Universal answer is suck it. If the future is for everything to pay 100% of Medicare or less there's no reason to do surgery at all. Control expenses and overhead. Cultivate a handful of decent plans and cut everything else.
 
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There was a podiatrist that was hired on to assist in surgeries and see post op patients in a well known ortho group. His name wasn’t even listed on their website.
This "no name Podiatrist" is still making more base salary than any podiatry associate in a pod group. Once you can pay your bills, student loans, nice house, and have enough to enjoy life then I don't care about my name listed on any website. Those Podiatrists with beautiful pictures in white coat (and a stethoscope lol) on Podiatry websites are making less than $100k base (WITHOUT basic benefits like health insurance) and lucky to be clearing more than $150k a year. While a podiatry in an ortho group even not doing surgery probably has a base of $200k with full benefits (health insurance, 401k etc).
 
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The world outside of residency just ain’t fair. I’m very fortunate to be in an area where pods and ortho get along relatively well, but there are a few bad eggs, as anywhere else be. In my prior job, ortho and pod got along very well and ortho would have no problem helping us in a case (Supra malleolar osteotomies alignment, harvest iliac graft, etc). They only cared that I did good work, brought in ethical business and got along with everyone.

But as HeyBrother mentioned, these gigs are for sure damn better than a soul sucking PP job (majority but not all). I’ve had numerous current residents and fellows reaching out asking for job leads and a few were disappointed they didn’t get a job they interviewed for because they thought their fellowship would give them the edge. Nah bro.
 
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This "no name Podiatrist" is still making more base salary than any podiatry associate in a pod group. Once you can pay your bills, student loans, nice house, and have enough to enjoy life then I don't care about my name listed on any website. Those Podiatrists with beautiful pictures in white coat (and a stethoscope lol) on Podiatry websites are making less than $100k base (WITHOUT basic benefits like health insurance) and lucky to be clearing more than $150k a year. While a podiatry in an ortho group even not doing surgery probably has a base of $200k with full benefits (health insurance, 401k etc).

You make a good point. My colleague is the director of a large MSG, and he tells me his non surgical podiatrist pulled in an average of 330K for the last 5 years.
 
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As my late residency director would say:
"If you are just after the money, drop out after your first year of residency, take your certificate, and go cut toenails at nursing homes."

If you want to do rewarding work, work hard and pay attention to get a lot of skills to help your patients. In practice, you will always see or read or hear of DPMs who make more than you. You will have many chances to do services or dispense stuff that patients don't need... or to "up-code" or choose the blacker side of gray areas every day also. Life is full of choices.

...as for the ortho groups, it is all situational. There is the whole spectrum in terms of scope, pay, respect, etc. There are two main types, though:
1 - A lot of ortho groups or hospitals like having a DPM to do just injects and orthotics/DME and various derm/nail/wound non-op stuff. They may or may not have them doing forefoot surgery or I&D/amp stuff, but they will tend to advertise what they expect. They don't lie, and they have no shortage of applicants (even many fellowship-trained, lol). A lot of those minimal/no surgery pods in these ortho situations are still very high earners (for the group or hospital, not necessarily for their own W2) since they generate a lot of RVUs while also funneling a lot of surgery to the F&A ortho or other group orthos. They function somewhat similar to PM&R docs, sports med FP docs, PAs, or PTs, etc in the ortho group or hospital employ... basically funnel cases to the orthos and make the orthos able to do more operating by taking care of many of the non-op and pre/post-op visits.

2 - Other ortho groups (large or very small, rural or uban) have the DPM function as basically F&A ortho if they have the training - except not able to take gen ortho call, of course... and probably still doing at least a bit of derm/nail/wound stuff that real F&A orthos tend to duck and dodge. This DPM as big shot ortho group surgeon can even happen in a big metro, but those groups tend to have ortho F&A(s) and no DPM - or just the former minimal/non op type. The" super surgeon" DPM hospital or ortho group setup can be fair to good for the DPM, depending on how much volume the group can get the DPM and how the contract is structured, if partner in group/rad/surg/etc centers is offered, etc. Those are generally good job quality and the most competitive DPM jobs since they have good variety, typically quality staffing/office, prestige, many cases to at least good to get board cert and pay some loans out of training.
Some have high burnout or I suppose a few DPMs might feel like the "low man on the totem pole" since they're not MD/DO even if they are doing a lot of cases and making good money... but the doc can always go solo or to another job later on if the compensation isn't very good or the hours are too rough. As waka said above, you typically won't hear the horror stories as you will from DPM grads who sign a $100k or lower podiatry PP job contract.

^^A fair amount of alumuni from my program and ones I've worked with do this (be the F&A surgeon for ortho group or function as big F&A surgeon for hospital, sometimes replacing an outgoing F&A ortho). I notice it tends to work and last awhile for the more rural and suburban setups (usually small/medium size group/hospital)... bigger urban and metro ones seem to have less longevity for the DPM being there if you check back after awhile. I would imagine the politics and the hours grind you down even in some "dream" jobs. Dunno.
 
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Not shocked.

In my opinion, it’s regional. Around me, ortho and pod get along very well. Big ortho group in area only has podiatrists for their lower extremity section.
Around here DPMs work for the main ortho group and I personally have no issues with ortho.

It is regional with exceptions here and there.

I've said it before. Most of the Northeast and some states in the south tend to have a malignant relationship.

Seattle is not great either.
 
Its all cool with small Ortho groups and a pod until a young F&A from their program reaches out ....seen it not experienced it.
 
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Its all cool with small Ortho groups and a pod until a young F&A from their program reaches out ....seen it not experienced it.
I should have put an asterik on my comment above. If a F&A ortho wants in or wants your competition they will always chose their own.
 
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I should have put an asterik on my comment above. If a F&A ortho wants in or wants your competition they will always chose their own.
Yup. I (think) I am fortunate enough that there is not truly enough for them to be happy without having to do diabetic **** which they won't. And then they would cannibalize my partners too much. I think we bring in a spine guy eventually that will also cover general Ortho call.

But it's hard to explain to my wife and others how fragile it is. F &A comes in and I have to move if I want to keep making decent money. Not room for the both of us.
 
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Business wise, a "professional association" started by MD/DOs will only allow shareholders to be MD/DOs. I explain this to our residents who are getting offers from Ortho groups.

Also, a "Fellowship trained Foot and Ankle Surgeon" that is a Podiatrist will be paid less by an Orthopedic Group than a "Fellowship trained Foot and Ankle Surgeon" that is an Orthopedist. Mostly because an Orthopedist can still take general Ortho call, whereas a Podiatrist can't. So who would you hire?

This is all well known. But hey, you make more money, so it's all good, right? Until you don't because the Ortho group you work for gets bought out, the Old guy in the group that really liked you retires, and the new guy wants to hire a younger doc, etc, etc. Then you are out on your ass, clueless about how to run a practice, not willing to cut nails anymore because you WERE a big shot surgical Podiatrist, and too old to be of use to someone in PP trying to find a young dupe out of residency to hire. And abuse. Good times.
 
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I always laugh when podiatrists say “orthos are cool with us”. I have never met an ortho who really liked podiatry. They will tolerate us and that’s probably it. I use to have quarterly meetings with a few pods and foot ankle orthopods to discuss politics before COVID. Trust me when I say they do not us operating at all.
 
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Yup. I (think) I am fortunate enough that there is not truly enough for them to be happy without having to do diabetic **** which they won't. And then they would cannibalize my partners too much. I think we bring in a spine guy eventually that will also cover general Ortho call.

But it's hard to explain to my wife and others how fragile it is. F &A comes in and I have to move if I want to keep making decent money. Not room for the both of us.
Unless you stop doing surgeries and start grinding nails like the rest of us.
 
I always laugh when podiatrists say “orthos are cool with us”. I have never met an ortho who really liked podiatry. They will tolerate us and that’s probably it.

My ortho partners were the ones who initially approached hospital admin about hiring me to the group. I guess they might not “really like” me, but what does that actually mean?

A lot of orthos are probably (and rightfully) skeptical of podiatry. But I’m sure there are plenty who are very appreciative of a good podiatrist once they work with one. Less so in bigger metros maybe
 
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What it really boils down to is foot surgery does not really pay that well in comparison to hips, knees, etc.

Many (most?) general orthos do not want to treat the foot. They want the ankle fxs but not foot fxs and especially no elective foot surgery.

Orthos are starting to hire DPMs because there are very few F&A orthos out there. Its better to hire a DPM than refer everything out.

As long as no F&A ortho is in town who wants that job podiatry is not an enemy to the majority of orthos. That has been my experience at least and of course exceptions here and there.
 
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I think the actual truth would surprise you...
Tell me the truth, then. Can we take ortho call? Do our surgeries reimburse as much as their surgeries do? Do we make as much per patient in the clinic as they can?
 
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My ortho partners were the ones who initially approached hospital admin about hiring me to the group. I guess they might not “really like” me, but what does that actually mean?

A lot of orthos are probably (and rightfully) skeptical of podiatry. But I’m sure there are plenty who are very appreciative of a good podiatrist once they work with one. Less so in bigger metros maybe

I have never seen an ortho who refers to podiatry for anything that’s ankle related unless you are at a VA hospital. They almost always refer to their colleagues over podiatry if they have a choice.
 
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My ortho partners were the ones who initially approached hospital admin about hiring me to the group. I guess they might not “really like” me, but what does that actually mean?

A lot of orthos are probably (and rightfully) skeptical of podiatry. But I’m sure there are plenty who are very appreciative of a good podiatrist once they work with one. Less so in bigger metros maybe

They might like you personally, and know that you provide a service they can use and pay you less than if they hired an Orthopedic colleague.

I have yet to meet one Ortho who was "appreciative" about Podiatry. More indifferent or hostile. You may be the exception. Which is fantastic for you.
 
I have never seen an ortho who refers to podiatry for anything that’s ankle related unless you are at a VA hospital. They almost always refer to their colleagues over podiatry if they have a choice.
Or do it themselves, despite no expertise, rather than refer to a Podiatrist. Then get pissed when a Podiatrist fixes their work, and they hear about it. And not just ankle. All sorts of forefoot debauchery.
 
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They might like you personally, and know that you provide a service they can use and pay you less than if they hired an Orthopedic colleague.

I have yet to meet one Ortho who was "appreciative" about Podiatry. More indifferent or hostile. You may be the exception. Which is fantastic for you.
Dtrack and I are both rural so our setups are different than metro areas. My ortho partners do ankle fx (I don't, they do a very good job and no reason to rock the boat. Might inject an ankle here or there but if it is a foot or anything else ankle related they send to me. Infection, ankle arthritis, trauma (calc fx, achilles rupture) doesn't matter. This is my specialyy and interest and they focus on theirs. They have gotten old privileges updated for me, and they have my back if anyone questions anything. I am lucky and I know it. I do a good job, make people happy, make their patients happy, make their lives easier, and keep people from traveling 3 hours to other cities to see someone else and potentially losing other business to them. Win win.
 
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Dtrack and I are both rural so our setups are different than metro areas. My ortho partners do ankle fx (I don't, they do a very good job and no reason to rock the boat. Might inject an ankle here or there but if it is a foot or anything else ankle related they send to me. Infection, ankle arthritis, trauma (calc fx, achilles rupture) doesn't matter. This is my specialyy and interest and they focus on theirs. They have gotten old privileges updated for me, and they have my back if anyone questions anything. I am lucky and I know it. I do a good job, make people happy, make their patients happy, make their lives easier, and keep people from traveling 3 hours to other cities to see someone else and potentially losing other business to them. Win win.

Sounds like a great gig. As you pointed out, you are one of the lucky few. Enjoy it.
 
They might like you personally, and know that you provide a service they can use and pay you less than if they hired an Orthopedic colleague.

I have yet to meet one Ortho who was "appreciative" about Podiatry. More indifferent or hostile. You may be the exception. Which is fantastic for you.

The hospital writes our paychecks so there is no financial incentive for the Orthopedists. At first I’m sure it was offloading pus, some trauma they didn’t like and some recon stuff they weren’t comfortable with. All of which they would reluctantly do or send out of town but liked the idea of allowing people to get care locally.

They pretty regularly refer patients to me. Ortho did a Tib ant rupture repair and some issues cause by equinus after she healed the repair itself were sent to me to take over. I get ankle fractures. They send me poor foot and ankle trauma outcomes that need salvage. But like airbud said, I’m rural. They get paid for the work they do and my productivity doesn’t affect them positively or negatively from a financial standpoint. We hunt and ski and hang out after hours together. I think “like” and “appreciative” are accurate, but sure, if they had a F/A ortho applicant who was ok with doing mostly non-F/A stuff (there isn’t enough of it here to have a purely MSK practice) they would rather have that person only because it decreases their call load. All I can do is answer my phone when they ask me to fix something they don’t feel like fixing while on call.
 
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My ortho partners were the ones who initially approached hospital admin about hiring me to the group. I guess they might not “really like” me, but what does that actually mean?

A lot of orthos are probably (and rightfully) skeptical of podiatry. But I’m sure there are plenty who are very appreciative of a good podiatrist once they work with one. Less so in bigger metros maybe
You practice in the middle of nowhere. Just like air bud. Totally different situations compared to most DPMs who practice in more populated areas. Try practicing in areas of the country where ortho "tolerates" podiatry.

I think everyone has hit on some truth with our relationship with ortho. Ortho only referred me the 400 lb dislocated ankle fracture, diabetic ankle fractures. I've seen a TON of terrible OIFs done by ortho when it comes to ankle fractures. Only for them to hold on to the patient forever when the patient is complaining rather than refer to me. Then these patients leave the practice and go elsewhere when I could have helped.

I've tried to have an open mind but ortho doesn't like us and I don't really like them.
 
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Let's all tell each other where we practice and how many ortho friends we all have.

Seems like that will save some time and bickering. Ha.
 
Let's all tell each other where we practice and how many ortho friends we all have.

Seems like that will save some time and bickering. Ha.
My main office is located at the corner of Park Ave and 5th in NYC. I have many Ortho friends you may have read about in the United Airlines magazine.
 
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You practice in the middle of nowhere. Just like air bud. Totally different situations compared to most DPMs who practice in more populated areas.

That’s what we said. And there are people practicing in more rural areas all over the country. The moral of the story is that if you are determined to work with/for ortho and want to have a good relationship with them you can’t practice in the Northeast, or Dallas city limits, or Austin, or places with F/A fellowships like Boise or Seattle.

Or just don’t care at all about ortho and still make hundreds of thousands of dollars every year as a podiatrist without doing any ankle trauma or complex ankle reconstruction/salvage. Then you can live basically anywhere you want as long as you aren’t working for another podiatrist…
 
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That’s what we said. And there are people practicing in more rural areas all over the country. The moral of the story is that if you are determined to work with/for ortho and want to have a good relationship with them you can’t practice in the Northeast, or Dallas city limits, or Austin, or places with F/A fellowships like Boise or Seattle.

Or just don’t care at all about ortho and still make hundreds of thousands of dollars every year as a podiatrist without doing any ankle trauma or complex ankle reconstruction/salvage. Then you can live basically anywhere you want as long as you aren’t working for another podiatrist…

George Liu seems to be doing well at UT Southwestern (?) and ortho residents rotate with him. I would guess ortho leans more towards liking/respecting him overall
 
George Liu seems to be doing well at UT Southwestern (?) and ortho residents rotate with him. I would guess ortho leans more towards liking/respecting him overall

He and Van Pelt would be the exception to the Dallas rule I guess. But they are at an academic center and yes, knowing them both and some of the ortho attendings there, I would assume they respect those guys. They let them teach the ortho residents. Go ahead and apply for privileges at big Baylor in Dallas or Medical City and tell those orthos you’d like to do anything related to an ankle…lol

Baylor Scott and White is awful throughout TX though. Austin, Houston, San Antonio, College Station, Dallas. Fort Worth is about the only metro in TX where ortho doesn’t **** all over podiatry. The only F/A ortho in Fort Worth proper (and a good chunk of the rest of the orthos) are old JPS grads who were trained with podiatry. One Duke F/A grad in the suburbs north of Fort Worth but no idea if he’s a dick to DPMs or not.
 
He and Van Pelt would be the exception to the Dallas rule I guess. But they are at an academic center and yes, knowing them both and some of the ortho attendings there, I would assume they respect those guys. They let them teach the ortho residents. Go ahead and apply for privileges at big Baylor in Dallas or Medical City and tell those orthos you’d like to do anything related to an ankle…lol

Baylor Scott and White is awful throughout TX though. Austin, Houston, San Antonio, College Station, Dallas. Fort Worth is about the only metro in TX where ortho doesn’t **** all over podiatry. The only F/A ortho in Fort Worth proper (and a good chunk of the rest of the orthos) are old JPS grads who were trained with podiatry. One Duke F/A grad in the suburbs north of Fort Worth but no idea if he’s a dick to DPMs or not.

One of the UT southwestern podiatrists trained at my program. You want to talk about ego? You should meet Liu and Van Pelt. Again, you know these podiatrists are t-bagging these orthos weekly.

You are absolutely right about how awful it is in Texas. Orthos hate podiatry. Fort Worth for podiatry is as good as it gets.
 
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Christ, is everyone on this board in Texas?
 
Christ, is everyone on this board in Texas?
There is Texas and not Texas....

Wife is from there. Now that we don't live there, she is constantly seeing stores/restaurants in other locales and saying "wait they have those here I thought that was a Texas thing..."
 
George Liu seems to be doing well at UT Southwestern (?) and ortho residents rotate with him. I would guess ortho leans more towards liking/respecting him overall

Ha! I went to school with Tye. Good guy. Very smart. Glad he is doing well for himself. He deserves it.
 
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You should meet Liu and Van Pelt. Again, you know these podiatrists are t-bagging these orthos weekly.
Agreed. There are other podiatrists I could rattle off that work in large academic or level 1 trauma centers that train ortho residents but they also kiss ortho's you know what. They have their "respect" but they also would never dare become confrontational or actually stand up for themselves/rock the boat. That is just reality. Whoever says otherwise is a liar.
 
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Not shocked.

In my opinion, it’s regional. Around me, ortho and pod get along very well. Big ortho group in area only has podiatrists for their lower extremity section.
I wanted to know what state you practice in because some states are worse than others. Let me know if you can, thanks.
 
I wanted to know what state you practice in because some states are worse than others. Let me know if you can, thanks.
It's more the saturation than the state/region.

The places with a lot of ortho training programs or teaching hospitals can be tougher (New England, TX, NC, etc), but it still mainly comes down to saturation.

It's main the metros, competitive areas, good payer areas, etc that'll often try to elbow DPMs out (unless they employ them). Most rural just want whoever shows up and does the work well. :thumbup:
 
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