PM News Annual Survey Net Income

[king22]

Has anyone seen the recent PM News Annual survey's median net income number for solo practitioners? It's a $106,000.

I don't know anyone in solo practice that is making that little unless they opened up less than year ago. Where do they get this number from?

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[dtrack22]

Has anyone seen the recent PM News Annual survey's median net income number for solo practitioners? It's a $106,000.

I don't know anyone in solo practice that is making that little unless they opened up less than year ago. Where do they get this number from?

Not surprising.

A) it’s PMnews which means the dregs of the profession are primarily the ones responding.

B) “net income” probably doesn’t include a decent chunk of actual income as the aforementioned dregs are excluding real income was written off. We get it Dr. Goldmann, you are able to write off $100k of your income as business expenses to show the IRS you only netted $106k. It’s technically true, but it isn’t an accurate representation of what they are bringing home.

C) maybe their intentions are even more nefarious and they artificially deflate net income numbers when filling out the salary to keep the gravy train rolling, in terms of convincing hundred of residency grads every year that $100k salary is average and acceptable. Generous even.

The median patient volume was 80 something per week. Not busy, but not dead either. Seems reasonable. What they should ask is “what were your gross collections.” I can’t imagine the median would only be $200-250k which is all it would take for a $106k net income (assuming we are leaving accounting tricks out of the reported income number). It would give you a better idea of how these respondents are really doing and how much income they are actually taking home. ie if median collections was $400k (not hard at all), and the median net income was $106k then you’d know the income numbers are a load of crap and artificially low. Or I guess PMnews could poll people who don’t read or subscribe to PMnews and get numbers that are closer to MGMA data than income of a public school teacher. Seriously, pay scale in our school district tops out at $103k per year for a teacher.

 

[JewOnThis]

106k year is believable. I’ve been in private practice for many years and I am not surprised at all.

 

[G0dFather]

Has anyone seen the recent PM News Annual survey's median net income number for solo practitioners? It's a $106,000.

I don't know anyone in solo practice that is making that little unless they opened up less than year ago. Where do they get this number from?

Yeah this stuff isnt clear ... its the 106k NET income from the business then they will get taxed on it on the 1040 ... or is that 106k the real net after going through the 1040 ??


and yes 80 pts a week over a 5-6 day week ( which is a chill office) at 100 bucks pp is about 400k a year ... even running the business recklessly you would next at least net 170k from business at end of year

 

[G0dFather]

106k year is believable. I’ve been in private practice for many years and I am not surprised at all.

come on man ... there are absentee run businesses that net you 100k and you dont have to step foot into the place .... this is some wild *** profession

 

[dtrack22]

106k year is believable. I’ve been in private practice for many years and I am not surprised at all.

Show us on the doll where the podiatrist (and orthopedist apparently) touched you

 

[JewOnThis]

The income for podiatrists are all over the place. And I believe it when pods tell me they make 106k a year. My ex partner had to sell his practice for this reason. Don’t get me wrong, there are some really successful podiatrists out there like Kevin Lam.

 

[Feli]

Lol. Podiatry Management is a joke and always has been. There is a reason the pub is free (to say they have "largest readership"). It is a simple glossy mag made to sell ads for vitamins, prefabs, wound wizard grafts, balance braces, etc. It is mostly "educational" for chiropodists who did 12 and 24mo or 0mo PPMR "residency" and can't pass boards. It might have some usable info from time to time, but for any legit scientific value or ideas, it is basically a joke since the majority of the readership (and many of the "expert authors" writing content) are not even board certified. It is best viewed as entertainment only. I don't even like it when many DPMs call it "throwaway journal" since it is not good info or a journal in any form. It sorta makes me dumber when I even read it

All of the income surveys are just that: surveys. PM was probably an email or something. There is no fact checking. Anyone can lie. Anyone can inflate the numbers. Anyone can say they are solo or ortho group or whatever they want.

You will get somewhat better results from APMA and ACFAS income surveys generally... or MGMA data. Still, none of them ultimately mean anything to you personally. What matters is the area you work, what you make, how happy you are day to day, and what your overhead (owner) or COL (employed) is. You will see the whole $$$ range... you don't get what you deserve, you get what you negiotiate.

 

[DYK343]

I would trust nothing about anything in PMNews.

It is true some associates get really poor positions directly out of residency that pay this income. That's a stain on our profession.

But once you move on from those starter positions if you're not making 200k+ a year in your office you're either not seeing patients or you're billing practices are subpar.

Just as much as its illegal to overbill its also illegal to underbill!

As Dtrack said tax sheltering may make it seem 100k. But in reality its more than that.

Those PMNewsers are just trying to convince associates their horrible starting salaries offered in the classifieds are justified.

 

[NobodyDPM]

Funny how everyone rags on the numbers PMNews comes out with, but when 100 Pods say they make over $300K and it's published by ACFAS, everyone is on board and no one questions it.

Surveys tend to attract those that like to answer surveys. And they tend to be on both ends of the bell curve. Most don't have the time or inclination to answer those damn things. I don't spend anytime answering anything like that unless I'm paid to do so. You want information about me and me spending my time answering something? You better pay me. Free information from no one you know is not of any value to anyone.

 

[DYK343]

Funny how everyone rags on the numbers PMNews comes out with, but when 100 Pods say they make over $300K and it's published by ACFAS, everyone is on board and no one questions it.

Surveys tend to attract those that like to answer surveys. And they tend to be on both ends of the bell curve. Most don't have the time or inclination to answer those damn things. I don't spend anytime answering anything like that unless I'm paid to do so. You want information about me and me spending my time answering something? You better pay me. Free information from no one you know is not of any value to anyone.

Thats why for hospital/msg we should all be using MGMA to argue our salaries. Its actually verified based on W2 statement. There is no fudging a W2 number. There is fudging with the self reported PMNews salary. Its not a reliable source of information.

But as you said MGMA is still only those who take the time to report their salary and could still have some bias. I reported mine this year in exchange for a free copy of the data. My Salary is based on MGMA and I get bonuses on top of it.

 

[619]

100 Pods say they make over $300K

Half of them are here on this forum and the other half are giving lectures at acfas.

 

[GreenHousePub]

"As you can see the practice is only netting 100 a year. Therefore you need to pay me to work here" - Sometime in the near future

 

[JewOnThis]

Funny how everyone rags on the numbers PMNews comes out with, but when 100 Pods say they make over $300K and it's published by ACFAS, everyone is on board and no one questions it.

Surveys tend to attract those that like to answer surveys. And they tend to be on both ends of the bell curve. Most don't have the time or inclination to answer those damn things. I don't spend anytime answering anything like that unless I'm paid to do so. You want information about me and me spending my time answering something? You better pay me. Free information from no one you know is not of any value to anyone.

I have only seen 1 position that advertised for 375K in the Midwest which was like 3 years ago. That was filled by a former resident of UMPC. I still believe the average salary is much less than 300k. I would say the average is above 100k for sure, but not more than 150k. I have seen quite a few contracts/offers from the formers residents I have worked with. I would say the worst offers are usually from cities like Miami and surrounding areas.

 

[Shiyuan]

For anyone looking, there are a couple of rural hospitals in eastern Ohio hiring through WVU. Hospital based.

 

[PeaJay]

I have only seen 1 position that advertised for 375K in the Midwest which was like 3 years ago. That was filled by a former resident of UMPC. I still believe the average salary is much less than 300k. I would say the average is above 100k for sure, but not more than 150k. I have seen quite a few contracts/offers from the formers residents I have worked with. I would say the worst offers are usually from cities like Miami and surrounding areas.

In my area of the Midwest things start at about 200k and go up from there based off skillset/productivity. For all the coasties it is rural (metro areas of 120k with main city of 60-70k). The cities have everything you could need/want but only one of everything. So if you don’t like the one Indian or Thai restaurant you are sol.

 

[Feli]

I have only seen 1 position that advertised for 375K in the Midwest which was like 3 years ago. That was filled by a former resident of UMPC. I still believe the average salary is much less than 300k. I would say the average is above 100k for sure, but not more than 150k. I have seen quite a few contracts/offers from the formers residents I have worked with. I would say the worst offers are usually from cities like Miami and surrounding areas.

It is impossible to know. MGMA is probably the best (as I and DYK said above).

There is a big difference between employed and owners, hospital employ versus PP employed, well-run PP versus poorly run with low patient volume and few income stream options.

Mean and median are different things. I know at least a few DPMs making way over 1M annually (but they can put that back into the biz and shelter it) since they work part-time and do mainly admin to shave productivity off a dozen or more employed associate docs - as well as have the real estate and alternative investments going. They will drive the mean way up for the rest of their career... but won't affect the median much. We obviously all know associates making 100k and not hitting any bonus... they drag both stat figures downward, but hopefully they will get out to a better setup. The largest group is docs are ones who don't respond to the surveys or make them a joke and put in bogus figures. So, we don't know much. We do know that board cert and group practice and more years in practice increases income; those results are constant in nearly all surveys.

So, in the end, the only thing that matters is how much each DPM negotiates, how they produce toward bonus, and what their savings % is. For owners, it is how well they can run the biz.

 

[Startingover123]

In my area of the Midwest things start at about 200k and go up from there based off skillset/productivity. For all the coasties it is rural (metro areas of 120k with main city of 60-70k). The cities have everything you could need/want but only one of everything. So if you don’t like the one Indian or Thai restaurant you are sol.

Are these numbers for pp associate jobs?

 

[PeaJay]

Are these numbers for pp associate jobs?

PP is limited in most of the upper Midwest there are large health systems and MSGs. This is for the systems and MSGs, however the pp associates that I know of in the region hit 200k and beyond.

 

[ExperiencedDPM]

The income for podiatrists are all over the place. And I believe it when pods tell me they make 106k a year. My ex partner had to sell his practice for this reason. Don’t get me wrong, there are some really successful podiatrists out there like Kevin Lam.

Kevin Lam……ugh.

 

[JewOnThis]

PP is limited in most of the upper Midwest there are large health systems and MSGs. This is for the systems and MSGs, however the pp associates that I know of in the region hit 200k and beyond.

I have to call BS on pp associates hitting 200k and beyond. I haven’t never seen or heard of one. I see offers and contracts annually since I’m involved in a residency program.

 

[PeaJay]

I have to call BS on pp associates hitting 200k and beyond. I haven’t never seen or heard of one. I see offers and contracts annually since I’m involved in a residency program.

Maybe it’s the Midwest nice aspect of our culture here. We generally treat each other with respect socially and in business. I am involved in a residency and converse with residents on prospects also.

 

[king22]

I have to call BS on pp associates hitting 200k and beyond. I haven’t never seen or heard of one. I see offers and contracts annually since I’m involved in a residency program.

Well you've heard of one now (me). And I'm in the NYC metro area.

 

[josebiwasabi]

I have to call BS on pp associates hitting 200k and beyond. I haven’t never seen or heard of one. I see offers and contracts annually since I’m involved in a residency program.

Both me and my co associate in upstate NY took home over 200k per year. Small pp group.

 

[GreenHousePub]

Small pp group.

Sounds like a personal problem. How'd you all find eachother?

 

[JewOnThis]

Maybe it’s the Midwest nice aspect of our culture here. We generally treat each other with respect socially and in business. I am involved in a residency and converse with residents on prospects also.

Most of the residents from my program end up in MSG, hospItal, or ortho groups. With that being said, I still see offers from PP literally from just about every geographic location. The highest recent PP offer I have seen is 150K base and that’s in Georgia.

 

[Feli]

Most of the residents from my program end up in MSG, hospItal, or ortho groups. With that being said, I still see offers from PP literally from just about every geographic location. The highest recent PP offer I have seen is 150K base and that’s in Georgia.

There's a chance your residency is not a strong one if you consider 150k base amazing or 200k total compensation out of reach. Those are very average income numbers, even for associates.

My base (and I'd assume most/all in my group with about a dozen offices - even new residency grads) is over that... and the base honestly only really matters for the first few months. The docs, esp anyone with exp like me, should be hitting incentive bonus to make over base in all months except maybe months I take a long vaca. It's hard in my setup to not hit bonus unless you were taking a whole lot of days off, extremely inefficient in office (less than 10-15pts/day), not utilizing the many revenue tools provided, not doing much/any surgery, not understanding CPT coding and office procedures/DME/etc, or some other significant malfunction (all of which the ownership would likely coach the doc on how to improve their collections). In various states and setups (pod or MSG).

While I had some low base salary marks on my early jobs (probably my fault for staying in a saturated metro), I've never worked in a PP job where 200k total comp was completely out of reach (although hard during first year in many setups since collections are almost nothing for first couple months... or hard to get high overall w2 income with poor payers or a very low bonus %).

 

[JewOnThis]

There's a chance your residency is not a strong one if you consider 150k base amazing or 200k total compensation out of reach. Those are very average income numbers, even for associates.

My base (and I'd assume most/all in my group with about a dozen offices - even new residency grads) is over that... and the base honestly only really matters for the first few months. The docs, esp anyone with exp like me, should be hitting incentive bonus to make over base in all months except maybe months I take a long vaca. It's hard in my setup to not hit bonus unless you were taking a whole lot of days off, extremely inefficient in office (less than 10-15pts/day), not utilizing the many revenue tools provided, not doing much/any surgery, not understanding CPT coding and office procedures/DME/etc, or some other significant malfunction (all of which the ownership would likely coach the doc on how to improve their collections). In various states and setups (pod or MSG).

While I had some low base salary marks on my early jobs (probably my fault for staying in a saturated metro), I've never worked in a PP job where 200k total comp was completely out of reach (although hard during first year in many setups since collections are almost nothing for first couple months... or hard to get high overall w2 income with poor payers or a very low bonus %).

It’s not a bad program, but it was better when Dr. Wuhick was here. He offered an outstanding fellowship for our residents. He is now at UT southwestern doing his thing.