Please reopen my thread

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
She expresses an honest opinion, and is now the enemy, and one of the underlings (read:nurses)...

Sure there are some rogue (read:hungover:isagrees w/ you) nurses here, but most are just defending their turf...

how's that arm after casting stones?

. . . and yet again, another nurse, another jab. This one labels herself "premed" in her profile.

But don't respond anyone, lest every thread get shut down.

Members don't see this ad.
 
I don't understand why people who are not, and will never be, interns insist on posting on the threads in the "internship" forum.

It's an internship forum. Nobody kicked you off of SDN, just this particular forum. I don't see how that's terribly inappropriate, seeing as how you're not, and never will be, an intern.

Maybe I'm just missing something.

If the things were reversed - if you were venting on the Pharm forums, and doc02 was posting there and telling you how you should "feel" and "react" as a pharmacist....would you think it would be inappropriate for doc02 to get barred from the pharm forums? Seeing as how he's not a pharmacist, that would make sense to me too. Wouldn't it make sense to you?

Sorry! Lee requested i leave via pm - I chose not to - wonder why!

No - he wouldn' get barred - we coverese with many physician and welcome their input.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
When Lee said that SDN is intended for docs and pre-docs, who he was referring to is health care providers in doctoral level fields and students pursuing those fields. He was not restricting SDN's mission to physicians. The terms "physician" and "doctor" are often used interchangeably, but not in this case. That couldn't be further from the truth.

The following doctoral level health care fields are represented on SDN:
Medicine (MD/DO), Dentistry, Podiatric Medicine, Pharmacy, Veterinary Medicine, Audiology, Psychology, Optometry, Physical Therapy, and Occupational Therapy. Students in these fields are STUDENT DOCTORS. Practitioners in these fields are DOCTORS of _______________.

SDN does and will continue to represent the spectrum of doctoral level health care professions. Our upper management team includes members from fields other than medicine. Our moderator and advisor staff is pulled from all the represented professions. This diversity helps us ensure that SDN remains a vibrant, inter-disciplinary health care community. We value the input and contributions of ALL of our members.

Thanks for all the feedback.

I guess that lets Old Timer out - he's a BS Pharmacist.....see the differerence?
 
I don't understand why people who are not, and will never be, interns insist on posting on the threads in the "internship" forum.

It's an internship forum. Nobody kicked you off of SDN, just this particular forum. I don't see how that's terribly inappropriate, seeing as how you're not, and never will be, an intern.

Maybe I'm just missing something.

If the things were reversed - if you were venting on the Pharm forums, and doc02 was posting there and telling you how you should "feel" and "react" as a pharmacist....would you think it would be inappropriate for doc02 to get barred from the pharm forums? Seeing as how he's not a pharmacist, that would make sense to me too. Wouldn't it make sense to you?

Guess what! I haven't been "kicked off" any forum......even this one..

What do i do with interns? Well, for about 6 weeks, I keep their *ss out of a sling by not ordering medications or doses which don't make any sense. We do this respectfully & dont tell anyone - we let the intern correct it so it"appears" he/she learned from his mistake & corrected it.

I also help these new physicians get the paperwork & regulations in compliance. It makes no sense to them, but is a huge deal when we get accreditated ........ long after you're gone.

doc02 is welcome to contribute on any forum he/she may want. We'd welcome doc02.
 
Do we need any more evidence that this forum needs to either be restricted to MDs, or else the rules about "incivility" done away with?

We experience internship, we tell stories about it, then we are subjected to endless second-guessing from self-righteous non-doctors who have never and will never possess the slightest understanding of what we do and what we go through to do it.

Seriously mods, how could anyone in the thick of internship not respond to this crap? But we're supposed to just sit and take it, otherwise all our threads get shut down.

I wouldn't be expected to take this pompous preaching from a pharmacist on the wards, why do I have to take it here, from one who's already been run out the Anesthesia forum by a different set of docs?

Nope - wasn't run out of anesthesia. In fact, actually invited back by Noyac & Jet.

Only you & a few other rebellious & from my narrow persepctive, insecure physicians get threatened by a pharmacist in the OR.

Please..................get back to reality!
 
Really?

You haven't shown it...

Not that you have to, but you sure spend a lot of energy selling your superiority...

We're not worthy...

I'm sure you don't realize how badly you misunderstand what I say.

I respect nurses who do their job and know what their job is. That doesn't include telling physicians what medications to prescribe or what medical interventions to take, where they are allowed to sit, telling them to answer the phone, or harrassing people in order to "show them our power."

The fact that you consider those things acceptable -- you must, if you are angered by me complaining about it -- means you're just another crazy "I support nurses no matter what they say or do" person. I don't know why nurses don't just come to work, do their job, and go home. Novel idea!!!
 
doc02 is welcome to contribute on any forum he/she may want. We'd welcome doc02.

Thanks, but I don't think you realize how little I care about what Pharmacists talk about. I'm not saying it's not important TO YOU, I'm just saying it's not important TO ME. That's why we're all a little puzzled why you care so much about what we talk about.
 
Thanks, but I don't think you realize how little I care about what Pharmacists talk about. I'm not saying it's not important TO YOU, I'm just saying it's not important TO ME. That's why we're all a little puzzled why you care so much about what we talk about.

I'm a prolific writer, so I can understand why my words might have gotten lost in paragraphs which you get lost in reading. So, in an attempt to curb my writing, I'll get it down to the bare bones:

1. I work in a hospital - specifically the ICU/OR, but I do rotate thru many services. One of my jobs is to orient interns in hospital medication usage.

2. Reading threads on interns is a good way to understand where an intern is coming from - both in understanding hospital policy as it relates to medications and the specifics of where is it, can I order it, how long does it take, what is the process?

3. I do provide an orientation to interns on how/when/where etc the pharmacy service functions. If you don't pay attention well - you get hung up on ordering something not on formulary (I give you quick ways around this if its a valid need), not being able to order a discharge, just messy paperwork - but time consuming for you and oh.....so very, very time consuming for me. By reading on here, I have changed how I approach some issues with medication & include or take out other information.

4. My hospital gets accredited every 3 years. OR/ICU is lumped with the ER when that happens. If you cause a mess that I need to fix, particularly if you are here during an accreditation year, I won't be happy - nor will my dop (Director of Pharmacy) who will get the Chiefs of Service, the CEO & the hospital accreditation nazi on my case. I try to avoid these circumstances - by teaching you how its done here, rather than having to make excuses later - or god forbid, having the issue caught by an inspector.

5. Now we come down to doing it our way. Yes....you'd like medicine to be done "your" way, but frankly, you work in an institution which has its own policies & procedures. There are many, many valid ways to get things done medically & yours, where you trained, I'm sure is valid - its just not the only way. But, when you come to my hospital, you do things the way my hospital has decided (not MY way - the hospital's way). I know that & I, as someone who helps to orient you, need to get you to know that. It doesn't make one better nor worse than another - its just different. And - these P&P have been decided on by many committees - for medications, often the P&T which have respresentatives from every medical service we have.

6. Getting you used to our system fast gets patient care accomlished smoother. We don't want you to continue to order Amikacin in October when we told you in July what the formulary aminoglycosides are.

7. Finally, altho I live & breathe this stuff daily, I know my hospital, altho large, is not like every other hospital. I read at these times for purely selfish reasons. My daughter will be applying to the match in one year. It is interesting to read how other institutions deal with their interns. Although I discuss it with my colleagues during our annual or state conventions, its easier just to read here.

So....does that help explain why I often will read & sometimes contribute here? Yep - I do read & contribute in anesthesiology, but about drugs used. They are complex, interesting & often I bring the chemical issues into the discussion. Anesthesiologists are also my colleagues I work with dailyl.

But, I rarely will go into forums I know nothing about - OB for example. Other than being a mother, I don't work on the OB service & have nothing to contributem, and nothing in common.

I just do work with interns A lOT, help to orient them & certainly help to address the confusion which usually arises regarding medication and all the issues which surround that.

I hope that clarifies.
 
Nope - wasn't run out of anesthesia. In fact, actually invited back by Noyac & Jet.

Only you & a few other rebellious & from my narrow persepctive, insecure physicians get threatened by a pharmacist in the OR.

Please..................get back to reality!

I suppose if that's how you want to see your history in that forum, that's your perogative. But I've been reading those threads for years, and while the two used-to-be-mods may have wanted your input, they were clearly in the minority.

Nobody is threatened by your presence here, but many of us are confused by your need to feel important and welcomed amongst a group of interns you clearly lack respect for. We know what you do in the hospitals, we just don't care in the context of these threads.
 
Another nurse story:

A nurse comes up to me and tells me that she wants me to evaluate a patient. It's not my patient, which I tell her; we were just a consult. She goes, "I tried to get in touch with the primary team and they won't answer and I'm going off shift." That's not a great reason to get me involved, so I just repeat that she needed to contact the primary team. So she leaves.

Maybe twenty seconds later, she rushes up to me and yells (not like she was shouting, but she was acting excited and her voice was raised), "the patient is unstable!!!" So I drop everything and rush to the room. The patient looks at me and I look at her. Her vitals on the monitor are stable. I leave the room and find that the nurse had left and she wrote that "Dr. [my name] informed and is assessing the patient."

She's another one of those "been here 20 years" nurses and apparently she's played that trick on people before because the next nurse on shift was unsurprised. I was seriously considering following her to the parking lot and giving her a roundhouse kick to the face.
 
That's completely inappropriate behavior. I'd consider writing that person up.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
I prefer the roundhouse kick method.
 
no...trying not to further hijack the forum, so it was said in private...

yet you feel the need to add another obnoxious post. just so eeeeveryone knows you put this arrogant doc in his place. PM means private. nobody cares if you send a PM. chill out.
 
something funny to share

MD = Make Decisions
RN = Read Notes
SW = So What
 
Most nurses don't read notes. That's why it's so irritating when they page you to ask you about "something I saw in the note." It's like a lot of things, they do it if they want to and don't do it if they don't want to. Either way, you have to accept it as the resident. For example, if you tell them that the answer is also in the chart and they should read it, then they'll just act like it's "not their job" to read the chart. If you don't tell them the answer, then they act like it IS their job to "know what's in the chart in order to do our job" (but they still won't read it, just demand that you summarize). And if you write something in a note that you want a nurse to do to do, there is a 100% chance it won't get done because they don't consider the chart "doctor to nurse communication."

This is why I say that this is unprofessional behavior. Acting professionally means that it either is or is not your job. If it is not your job, then I really shouldn't have to help you do it or care if you want to know. If it is your job, then you should do it or know it as a requirement (i.e., I could expect you to know everything in the chart, at least generally). Nurses will probably disagree with this and say that courtesy dictates that I answer their questions about the chart, whether it is their job or not, but I don't see them paging attendings at night to ask about a random note on a patient.

Again, if we're talking about "basic courtesy," then the issue arises as before that nurses demand courtesy and act extremely rudely. What I mean is that residents are on call for 24 hours or more at a time. If you add onto their work for no reason or wake them up -- knowing that you work far fewer hours than them -- that is rude. To then demand that they act courteously in return is the height of rudeness. It is just like when a nurse kicks you out of her chair "because it's rude to sit in 'my' seat." She rudely demands courtesy (it's not even courtesy, actually; it's just "do things my way" masked as courtesy).

As usual, if you are a nurse and don't participate in such behaviors, then this post does not apply to you. If you do participate in such behaviors, then it does. This should be understood, but I guess I have to state it explicitly.
 
Most nurses don't read notes. That's why it's so irritating when they page you to ask you about "something I saw in the note." It's like a lot of things, they do it if they want to and don't do it if they don't want to. Either way, you have to accept it as the resident. For example, if you tell them that the answer is also in the chart and they should read it, then they'll just act like it's "not their job" to read the chart. If you don't tell them the answer, then they act like it IS their job to "know what's in the chart in order to do our job" (but they still won't read it, just demand that you summarize). And if you write something in a note that you want a nurse to do to do, there is a 100% chance it won't get done because they don't consider the chart "doctor to nurse communication."

This is why I say that this is unprofessional behavior. Acting professionally means that it either is or is not your job. If it is not your job, then I really shouldn't have to help you do it or care if you want to know. If it is your job, then you should do it or know it as a requirement (i.e., I could expect you to know everything in the chart, at least generally). Nurses will probably disagree with this and say that courtesy dictates that I answer their questions about the chart, whether it is their job or not, but I don't see them paging attendings at night to ask about a random note on a patient.

Again, if we're talking about "basic courtesy," then the issue arises as before that nurses demand courtesy and act extremely rudely. What I mean is that residents are on call for 24 hours or more at a time. If you add onto their work for no reason or wake them up -- knowing that you work far fewer hours than them -- that is rude. To then demand that they act courteously in return is the height of rudeness. It is just like when a nurse kicks you out of her chair "because it's rude to sit in 'my' seat." She rudely demands courtesy (it's not even courtesy, actually; it's just "do things my way" masked as courtesy).

As usual, if you are a nurse and don't participate in such behaviors, then this post does not apply to you. If you do participate in such behaviors, then it does. This should be understood, but I guess I have to state it explicitly.

what doc02 points out here seems to be true in many hospitals, and true for many interns/residents. it seems appropariate to be able to discuss these things amongst family (i.e. interns and residents) without distant family or outsiders (i.e. everyone else) coming in and not allowing us to vent.

will venting be the same thing over and over again? perhaps. being able to vent can be cathartic., as tired pointed out. being able to see that other interns and residents go through some of the same things can be comforting in the fact that you know you're not going it alone. it may also allow for other interns/residents to see a different way to approach an issue.
 
what doc02 points out here seems to be true in many hospitals, and true for many interns/residents. it seems appropariate to be able to discuss these things amongst family (i.e. interns and residents) without distant family or outsiders (i.e. everyone else) coming in and not allowing us to vent.

will venting be the same thing over and over again? perhaps. being able to vent can be cathartic., as tired pointed out. being able to see that other interns and residents go through some of the same things can be comforting in the fact that you know you're not going it alone. it may also allow for other interns/residents to see a different way to approach an issue.

A cathartic release is one thing, but to degrade an entire gender while doing so it another entirely. [See original thread for details.]
 
A cathartic release is one thing, but to degrade an entire gender while doing so it another entirely. [See original thread for details.]

How did I degrade an entire gender? Trust me, if I want to degrade a gender, I'll do it in a direct and explicit manner. I have no problem busting on women, but my original thread had nothing to do with women other than the fact that the heifer who was acting inappropriately was a female. If it was a male nurse (murse), I'd have owned him just as well.
 
A cathartic release is one thing, but to degrade an entire gender while doing so it another entirely. [See original thread for details.]

i saw the original thread, and was actually a part of it (i think i was the first one to respond to it).

i don't take everyone's comments on this board so seriously, especially in a venting thread. perhaps we need to lighten up a little.

i agree with tired and doc02, in that the thread seemed not to be a problem until a few certain individuals got involved.
 
A cathartic release is one thing, but to degrade an entire gender while doing so it another entirely. [See original thread for details.]

Why are you assuming Doc02 is male? Sounds like you have a little ingrained prejudice there yourself.
 
Why are you assuming Doc02 is male? Sounds like you have a little ingrained prejudice there yourself.

I did not state that Doc02 is or is not a male. Doc02 wrote, "They're completely unprofessional and a lot of that is because, frankly, they're female." Be Doc02 male, female, or both, that is derogatory towards women.
 
May I weigh in on this discussion (a situation of which I admittedly have no first-hand knowledge)? While I may have issues with some of the physician comments, I have even more issues with the non-physician comments. In the business world, there is NO WAY that anything the nurse said or did in the OP's story (in the original thread) could be construed as anything but completely and utterly unprofessional. In fact, in most businesses, that could be considered a firing offense. Why then should her actions/words be considered understandable, laudable even, in the medical world? Take away from the story any gender reference and refer to the two as Person A and Person B. Take away any reference to a medical setting, making it a generic business setting. Even take away any possible inference of inequality in position or rank. What you have left is Person B being rude, hostile, and unprofessional to Person A. What is understandable or laudable about that?

My understanding (which may be flawed, so please correct me if I'm wrong) of the way hospitals work, or perhaps are SUPPOSED to work, is similar to the military in that the nurses and ancillary staff are the non-coms and the physicians are the commissioned officers. While a seasoned, perhaps even highly decorated, master sergeant with 30 years under his belt may be far more experienced and knowledgeble than some wet-behind-the-ears lieutenant who barely knows one end of a rifle from another, there is no way that Master Sergeant will order the Lieutenant to do anything unless he is looking to get charged with gross insubordination. He may suggest or request, but never order. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the nurse ordered the intern. Whether the nurse was correct or not in what she thought the doctor needed to do doesn't come into play. Neither do her greater years of experience. She's going the wrong direction in the chain of command.

As for my own experiences with hospital nurses, they've all been positive, with one notable exception. As a volunteer in a large and busy ED, I spend almost all my time with the patients and their families. I try to do as much non-medical (since I have no training or certifications) stuff for the patients as I can. This includes things that the nurses end up having to do like fetch blankets and pillows, food and drink (when allowed), etc. I also take questions and concerns of the patients to the doctors/nurses since it's easier for me to find the proper person than it would be for the families. Every nurse but one has been gracious in their help to me and grateful that I wanted to lighten their load. The one who stood out was the one who was rude and wanted nothing to do with me. If it hadn't been for the fact that my first and only concern was the patients and their families, I would have avoided her entirely.
 
I did not state that Doc02 is or is not a male. Doc02 wrote, "They're completely unprofessional and a lot of that is because, frankly, they're female." Be Doc02 male, female, or both, that is derogatory towards women.

Thanks for taking me completely out of context. I believe I explained what I meant by that. Where I work, there are a number of male nurses (murses). While they have their own issues, I have never seen them act like the female nurses. The female nurses are the ones who, immediately when they meet you, form an opinion of you based on whether you meet their arcane code of politeness.

Some female nurses get angry if you introduce you as "Doctor So-and-so" because it's condescending. Others get angry if you introduce yourself with just your first name (this happened to me) for some unknown reason. I don't introduce myself at all any more, I just say "Surgery." They don't seem to mind that and neither do I. They ALL get angry if you sit in "their" seat even if they haven't been sitting in it for 30 minutes. You have to ask about their family and their children or care about how they woke up late that day, as if you're their stand-in husband at work. They all gossip about everyone. I could go on and on.

If you want to act like women don't act a certain way, fine with me.
 
The other night I was called by some nurse and she told me that there was "a new policy" where I had to do some administrative B.S. I told her I never heard of this. There's this long pause and she then goes, "...oh, it's a new policy." So at this point I'm extremely suspicious and I tell her that I never received any notice of this new policy. I ask her when it was put into place. She goes, "um, just this month." Oh, I've been here all month and I haven't been doing this. Now, what follows actually happened. She then says, "oh, I mean it's just been around for the past week." OK, but I was here for the past week, too. "No, it was started today." OHHH, just "started" today, huh? Wow, what a coincidence! I think you mean, "just started five seconds ago." Turns out SHE decided it would be a good policy and so she just decided to call me and see if I would buy her lame lie.

This is another example of nurses making up "hospital rules." It's great because they think they're so tricky and nobody knows they do it. Like if a nurse comes on shift and decides she doesn't want to place a Foley, she'll call someone and say, "oh, no, the RULE is that we place Foleys in women, but not men." (One nurse actually tried that on me. She placed the Foley, but I ended up having to change the dressing on her face from the beatdown I gave her. It was sort of a lose-lose.)
 
This is another example of nurses making up "hospital rules." It's great because they think they're so tricky and nobody knows they do it.

And don't forget that no one seems to know where the Policies & Procedures Manual is for every floor in the hospital. And if you ask to see the policy in writing, you're just being difficult.
 
Yeah, once I asked to see the written rule and the nurse said, "I don't know where the rulebook is." And then she just stood there. And we both knew she was lying, but she was seeing how I would play it. Would I just go along with her anyways because it was easier, like most people? Or would I fight it and be the guy everyone lectures to "pick your battles" (translation: don't ever have any battles because it's never the right time)?

That's the thing, nurses are deliberately being a$$holes and playing this stupid game. Apparently, they have nothing better to do other than be angry that they're nurses and other people are doctors, so they try to equalize their position by making doctors do what they want. Then they get mad when they find any resistance to their lame game and then -- this is the best part -- weak-headed people act like the person who is not cooperating with their stupidity is the problem, not them.So I ended up paging the nurse supervisor for the floor. She said it was also "the rule." So I paged the nurse adminstrator at her home at night and she laid down the smack on both of them because she didn't like that. That's right, rather than do something that took five seconds, I hasseled two other people at home and aggravated them. Now they know how it feels. Winner = me.
 
Most nurses don't read notes.

If you don't mind a quick question, how do the nurses at your institution get orders, ensure the patients are recieving the correct treatment (meds, diet, et cet) and likewise? Are they all electronic or set up so that orders are separate from general progress notes? At my place they're just "progress notes" and all orders, plans, consults, whatever are written there. From there, the nurses and secretaries take the carbon copies and enter the information into the computer.

At my place it would be impossible to not look at the notes and still do your job, so how do they manage it?
 
If you don't mind a quick question, how do the nurses at your institution get orders, ensure the patients are recieving the correct treatment (meds, diet, et cet) and likewise?

Oh, man, don't EVEN get me started on that. You put orders into a computer. But here's the thing: the nurses don't check the orders more than twice a day or so. (They're supposed to do it "routinely," but that equals once at the beginning of their shift and once a few hours before it ends.) So if you put in a new order, you literally have to find the nurse and tell her you put the order in, unless it's something that you want to gamble she'll see. (And you'd probably lose that wager.) I got majorly burned by that because I put in for stat labs once and figured the nurses would see it because they're on the computers all day. Turns out they're not charting, they're looking up recipies or booking hotels for their vacations online. I waited for an hour thinking the labs were being processed. Turns out the nurse didn't even know the order was in.
 
I got stuck with a nurse who was absolutely clueless. So she decided to act like I was the one who didn't know what I was doing. What do I mean? Well, she basically called me for EVERYTHING and kept asking me if "I was sure I wanted to do something" or "did I want to do something" or "what do you think about this" and so on. Once I decided to play a game with her.

So she calls me and is like, "OMG, the ALT is high!! It's 32!!" And so I go, "OK, that's fine." So she goes, "no, it's NOT fine, the computer says it's high!! Aren't you going to correct it?" So I go, "no, it's fine. Trust me." So she goes, "I'm concerned that you're ignoring it." So I decide to play this game with her. I go, "hm, you know, on second thought, I guess you're right. What should we do?" And she gets really offended and is like, "YOU'RE the doctor, don't you know?"

That's the best part. As a nurse, you can just shoot your mouth off about anything. You never have to have the answer, but you can question anything. And any time you question someone, they have to justify themselves to you. And it doesn't matter if they're right, they have to CONVINCE you that they're right. Somehow the person who is absolutely ignorant has turned into the ultimate authority; you're wrong unless SHE says you're right. So you sit there trying to convince her you're right so that she'll go, "OK, I guess I'll let this slide this time." Isn't that great? How much sense does that make?

And it's even better because she'll go to the other nurses and go, "he didn't even know how to correct the ALT! He asked ME how to do it! And that was after he was going to ignore it!" And they'll be like, "wow, he asked YOU how to do it? Good thing you were watching over him, sounds like he doesn't know what he's doing. Good job!" And then they'll consume a lot of doughnuts and pastries.
 
If you don't mind a quick question, how do the nurses at your institution get orders, ensure the patients are recieving the correct treatment (meds, diet, et cet) and likewise? Are they all electronic or set up so that orders are separate from general progress notes? At my place they're just "progress notes" and all orders, plans, consults, whatever are written there. From there, the nurses and secretaries take the carbon copies and enter the information into the computer.

At my place it would be impossible to not look at the notes and still do your job, so how do they manage it?

Depends on the hospital.

One, a smaller community hospital I used to moonlight at, had written orders in triplicate in the chart which also contained the progress notes, nursing notes, etc. The chart was placed in the rack on the ward secretary's desk and she/he took the orders off and placed them in the computer which presumably "tasked" the nurse, the pharmacy, etc. Like doc2 I've been burned so all stat orders need to be communicated with the patient's nurse because you never know when something will be taken off, if the chart gets removed by another physician before the order is taken off, or if the nurse even sees the order in a timely fashion.

In my residency and fellowship hospitals, all orders were placed in an EMR...the residency program was fairly modern and most orders got done quickly ( at least much more so than in the past when the ward clerk would take orders off every 4 hrs or so); the fellowship hospital's system was quite antiquated but you still had to rely on orders being seen after being taken off. None of these were tied to progress notes which were still being written on paper in the hard chart, so it is entirely possible for nursing not to see your notes because they were kept in a completely different chart than their notes or the orders, results, etc.

Finally, at the VA, everything is electronic..notes, orders, results, etc. but trying to get a VA nurse to do anything takes an act of congress!
 
doc02....I PM'd you with a question/comments.
 
I had to do a bedside I & D of an abscess. I walk into the room to do it and the nurse is there. She goes, "what are you about to do?" An I & D. She goes, "no, you're not." Uh, what? "Yeah, it's shift change, you're going to have to wait for thirty minutes." See, in the hospital, it's funny. All day, you get B.S. thrown at you by nurses "because they care so much about the patient." They use that excuse for everything because it's like the medical version of "for the chiiiildren!" Who's gonna say no? And yet, when it comes time for them to punch out, the entire hospital has to stop. Patients are frantically ringing call bells and they're like, "ah, shaddup, loser, you can wait!" (Not literally, mind you, but that's essentially what they are saying.) So I waited until she left to give sign-out and did the I & D. Then I later get a page from the next nurse who demands to know why I haven't come around to do the I & D yet and that "the patient can't wait all day for it to be convenient for you. We're here for the patients!!" I almost stabbed myself in the head, but then I decided to stab her in the head instead.
 
Tell the truth...It wasn't an I&D...it was an IJ that was placed at the bedside at 0700, right when I was supposed to get off shift, and I was suckered into helping you.
Even though the only Central lines that can be placed at bedside are PICC's and femorals, I walked in and you were in the the middle of the procedure, and I had no choice but to help out...after all, somebody had to grab the guy's arms to keep the field sterile...and to keep him from pulling it out at the wrong moment and turning the room into a scene from Carrie.
For the most part...I do like the residents I work with...but I really would like to hang this one upside down from the flag pole by his toes...
Before you start poking holes in someone jugular vein...fully assess pt for orientation, anxiety, ability to cooperate. And then make sure you tell the nurse ahead of time...so she can give the valium or ativan before the procedure, instead having to lay on the pt to restrain him during the procedure.
 
why can't they place IJ/subclavian's at bedside? i've seen a number of femoral artery pseudoaneurysms. usually when it's a fatty and you have to stick a number of times. any central line can have complications. sounds like another dumb rule by the administrators...use an ultrasound for the IJ and you'll have a lot fewer complications than blinding sticking somebody's groin.

the resident probably didn't bother you about the central line because we're so used to doing them without help! (taping the pannus before we start, taping the unsterile lidocaine to the IV pole, snapping the neck of our gowns before putting our arms through, making our flushes, double gloving so if we contaminte ourselves, we can take off the dirty glove- it's not like someone's going to be there to open another pair)

so yes, that sucks that you had to stay late. and most people wouldn't have bothered. but you're a good nurse!!!! we need more like you.
 
Tell the truth...It wasn't an I&D...it was an IJ that was placed at the bedside at 0700, right when I was supposed to get off shift, and I was suckered into helping you.

Um, no, I'm pretty sure that pus doesn't come out of a vein. Not that I haven't had the same situation with central line placements where the nurses want me to "come back later" so I just ignore them or send them out the nearest window. Have I had people start thrashing their arms and contaminate a sterile field? Absolutely. Does that indicate that I was doing the procedure incorrectly? Not as far as I know. A patient can turn their head during an IJ placement, too. I've never given someone ativan for a central line placement and I've never seen any other resident do that, either. If that would make you want to hang me upside down if you met me, that's fine with me.

By that same logic, I suppose that if any patient has ever moved while labs were being drawn, then I should have sedated them all as a routine.
 
i tend to sedate people now. it seems to cut down on "are you almost finished?" before you've even started sticking them. i'll set everything up and then use a 4x4 (to stay sterile) to put them in trendelenburg, and then prep and drape. it minimizes the time they are lying flat with the drape over their face. you have to watch out because ever tiny combinations of morphine and ativan can be considered 'conscious sedation.' meaning you can't do it on the floor b/c they need to be monitored.
 
and if i sedate, i restrain. they're out of it and can contaminate the field.
 
I put them in with 2 mL of 1% lidocaine. That's pretty much it. So far, I've had one person who said it was painful and he confessed that he was a pansy about needles. Most people just dislike having their face covered, but I'm not going to sedate them for that. Those people crack me up because I'm like, "so, what, if you were at home sleeping and your bedsheet fell on top of your face you'd start hyperventilating and yelling about how you can't breathe?" It's pretty pathetic because people make things into a bigger deal than they actually are. If someone was totally out of it and thrashing around, I'd probably sedate them, but that's about it.
 
if they do complain, it's during dilation. maybe i'm not infiltrating deeply enough with lido?
 
Likely you're not making your skin incision wide enough. I did that a few times and the people were extremely uncomfortable. It's sort of like if you just tried to ram a pencil through someone's arm.
 
i'll try that. thanks.
 
why can't they place IJ/subclavian's at bedside? i've seen a number of femoral artery pseudoaneurysms. usually when it's a fatty and you have to stick a number of times. any central line can have complications. sounds like another dumb rule by the administrators...use an ultrasound for the IJ and you'll have a lot fewer complications than blinding sticking somebody's groin.

the resident probably didn't bother you about the central line because we're so used to doing them without help! (taping the pannus before we start, taping the unsterile lidocaine to the IV pole, snapping the neck of our gowns before putting our arms through, making our flushes, double gloving so if we contaminte ourselves, we can take off the dirty glove- it's not like someone's going to be there to open another pair)

so yes, that sucks that you had to stay late. and most people wouldn't have bothered. but you're a good nurse!!!! we need more like you.

I'm not sure really sure why...but even the resident admitted later "thanks..I'm really not supposed to do IJ's at the bedside", and I'm left thinking great...if my boss finds out I helped you.

The biggest problem is, this pt was NOT oriented...and if you actually woke him up and spoke to him, you would have realized that. (consent was signed the day before by POA) Also the fact he is on scheduled xanax, prn clonazepam, may have been a clue he has some anxiety issues.

So after I walked in, and resident definitely needed help...I suggested valium or ativan, he went for ativan 0.5mg, reminded him pt was on scheduled and prn benzos. he went for 1 mg, and bring another 1mg in case.

I run to pyxis, grab the vial and syringe, pt has 24g (which is why he needed a central line, his team wasn't happy with baby size IV's, and lab wasn't able to draw at all) push the ativan, and lay across pt, till it works, mostly because he's coming out of bed, and resident has already did the cut down...

I'm not a rabid frothing at the mouth nurse who throws a fit if a resident does a procedure on my pt and I find out later... I honestly don't mind being asked if I can help. If I'm truly busy, I will flat out tell you, "i need to do something for a different pt, give me 10-15 minutes, and I'll meet you in the room".

In retrospect...I think the resident was from a different service a not so familiar with the pt...so for all I know, maybe he got dumped on by the team taking care of the pt. "hey, can you put in a IJ on one of our pts, consent is signed and in the chart." It's the first of the month...so the teams and residents changed, so I have to learn faces and names all over again. Some I docs I recognize from the past, some I don't.
 
It helps to use lidocaine and numb up the tract that your needle is going to follow - i.e down to the clavicle, if you can reach it. What hurts is when the large-bore needle hits the clavicle and goes under it, so numbing the periosteum can help a lot.

There's a great thread on central line gems in the Surgery forum, IIRC.
 
Yeah, but we're talking about IJs, not subclavians. For subclavians I'm more generous with local because, as you said, you have to numb up the periosteum. But with those, too, I'm not giving someone morphine and ativan and/or slapping on restraints to insert it.
 
Top