Physician Salaries - below 100K

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All this drama about doctor salaries make me glad I am going into military medicine. We may make less than our civilian counter parts, (at least specialists do) but we are paid primarily as officers with medical bonuses added on, so our pay isn't likely to drop no matter what happens to medicare re-imbursment rates.

Add to this the added benefits of being debt free, a sweet pension plan, and that our salaries start at about $115K after residencies, (71K during residency) and go up to $200K after 30 years and we seem to have it very sweet indeed.

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All this drama about doctor salaries make me glad I am going into military medicine. We may make less than our civilian counter parts, (at least specialists do) but we are paid primarily as officers with medical bonuses added on, so our pay isn't likely to drop no matter what happens to medicare re-imbursment rates.

Add to this the added benefits of being debt free, a sweet pension plan, and that our salaries start at about $115K after residencies, (71K during residency) and go up to $200K after 30 years and we seem to have it very sweet indeed.

The "drama about doctor salaries" is because people don't want compensation in civilian medicine to go down to military medicine levels. There are plenty of good things and plenty of bad things about military medicine. The salary isn't really one of the good things. It's ok, particularly when compared against people that aren't doctors, but it isn't exactly a major selling point.
 
Nope, never going to happen. It will stay as six-digit salary. Don't worry.

I know a lot of very good docs that took academic jobs after residency where their starting salary was less than 100K.
 
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I haven't read every post in this thread, but I get the gist, and I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.

1. I don't think that the cynicism towards the government is helpful. I'm not saying it's not well founded (it is), but the government is going to be there controlling things. We need to talk about what they need to do to fix the problem, not that "they are sh** and shouldn't be involved in anything ever!"

2. I also believe this needs to be done. I believe a form of universal healthcare is necessary and I think Obama is getting the picture with the letter's he's getting in the mail. As it's been said before, we are paying for the uninsured... everytime they go to the ER. And, by the way, if healthcare is a privilege, then why can't docs turn away patients in the ER? Healthcare is a right in this country, the question is how we're gonna pay for it. Basically, the reason that private insurance companies don't allow pre-existing conditions is the same reason the gov't is hemorrhaging money everytime an uninsured person enters the ER. So, either we can continue hemorrhaging money and "covering" these people, or we can force them to join in and pay a part of the pot.

3. As far as salaries, I'll take what I can get, but I didn't get into this for the money (by this I mean I got into it 25% for the money and 75% other reasons). Yes, if it was below a cut-off (for me around 50k), I wouldn't go to med school, but anything over (100k (+ inflation)) is bonus to me. I think everyone has their own personal range of "comfortable" salary, but I'm a pretty low maintenance person (basically if I have a computer and internet, I'm happy:)). Anyway, good luck to everyone, and I hope you learn to have faith in our government, hopefully through this reform going better than you expect. :)
 
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So, either we can continue to hemorrhaging money and "covering" these people, or we can force them to join in and pay a part of the pot.

huh?? How does providing universal coverage force those that today are uninsured and can't pay for their own care to "pay a part of the pot?"
 
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Remarks-by-the-President-to-a-Joint-Session-of-Congress-on-Health-Care/

I'll look for a better one, but this was the first one that came up.

Excerpt from Obama
"Now, even if we provide these affordable options, there may be those -- especially the young and the healthy -- who still want to take the risk and go without coverage. There may still be companies that refuse to do right by their workers by giving them coverage. The problem is, such irresponsible behavior costs all the rest of us money. If there are affordable options and people still don't sign up for health insurance, it means we pay for these people's expensive emergency room visits. If some businesses don't provide workers health care, it forces the rest of us to pick up the tab when their workers get sick, and gives those businesses an unfair advantage over their competitors. And unless everybody does their part, many of the insurance reforms we seek -- especially requiring insurance companies to cover preexisting conditions -- just can't be achieved.
And that's why under my plan, individuals will be required to carry basic health insurance -- just as most states require you to carry auto insurance. (Applause.) Likewise -- likewise, businesses will be required to either offer their workers health care, or chip in to help cover the cost of their workers. There will be a hardship waiver for those individuals who still can't afford coverage, and 95 percent of all small businesses, because of their size and narrow profit margin, would be exempt from these requirements. (Applause.) But we can't have large businesses and individuals who can afford coverage game the system by avoiding responsibility to themselves or their employees. Improving our health care system only works if everybody does their part."
 
There will be a hardship waiver for those individuals who still can't afford coverage, and 95 percent of all small businesses, because of their size and narrow profit margin, would be exempt from these requirements. (Applause.)

Bingo! The people that are using the ED as a primary care office are the very same people that will qualify for the hardship waiver. Thus, they won't be paying anything, but everyone else will be forced to buy into a bloated government system.

I'm glad to see that this kind of extremist reform is not going to make it through both houses of Congress.
 
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Remarks-by-the-President-to-a-Joint-Session-of-Congress-on-Health-Care/

I'll look for a better one, but this was the first one that came up.

Excerpt from Obama
"Now, even if we provide these affordable options, there may be those -- especially the young and the healthy -- who still want to take the risk and go without coverage. There may still be companies that refuse to do right by their workers by giving them coverage. The problem is, such irresponsible behavior costs all the rest of us money. If there are affordable options and people still don't sign up for health insurance, it means we pay for these people's expensive emergency room visits. If some businesses don't provide workers health care, it forces the rest of us to pick up the tab when their workers get sick, and gives those businesses an unfair advantage over their competitors. And unless everybody does their part, many of the insurance reforms we seek -- especially requiring insurance companies to cover preexisting conditions -- just can't be achieved.
And that's why under my plan, individuals will be required to carry basic health insurance -- just as most states require you to carry auto insurance. (Applause.) Likewise -- likewise, businesses will be required to either offer their workers health care, or chip in to help cover the cost of their workers. There will be a hardship waiver for those individuals who still can't afford coverage, and 95 percent of all small businesses, because of their size and narrow profit margin, would be exempt from these requirements. (Applause.) But we can't have large businesses and individuals who can afford coverage game the system by avoiding responsibility to themselves or their employees. Improving our health care system only works if everybody does their part."

Yes that is the appropriate quote, but those people will be paying for the insurance with subsidies from taxes on those who make more money. IE docs :)

(I think technically right now in the house bill it is on families that make more than 1 million so not a lot of docs but still humorous to think about.)

Doctors pay taxes, so their patients can buy health care and come see them with low government reimbursement rates... Beautiful cycle...
 
Oh, and by the way, states don't require you carry auto insurance if you don't own a car.

Since when did the U.S. government gain the authority to tell me that I have to purchase something? Thankfully, we have a Supreme Court that is charged with making sure the government stays within its authorized powers: those powers granted it by the Constitution.
 
Bingo! The people that are using the ED as a primary care office are the very same people that will qualify for the hardship waiver. Thus, they won't be paying anything, but everyone else will be forced to buy into a bloated government system.

I'm glad to see that this kind of extremist reform is not going to make it through both houses of Congress.

1. You bring up a good point, but I think it's hard to tell the exact effect of the hardship waiver, because exact numbers (cutoffs) haven't been addressed, (or I don't know them, if someone does, let me know).

2. http://opinion.latimes.com/opinionla/2009/09/healthcare-cost-shifting.html
(I think this ER doc more poignantly addresses the point I'm dancing around)

Oh, and by the way, states don't require you carry auto insurance if you don't own a car.

Since when did the U.S. government gain the authority to tell me that I have to purchase something? Thankfully, we have a Supreme Court that is charged with making sure the government stays within its authorized powers: those powers granted it by the Constitution.

Yes, but, you do own a "car," or in this case a body, that can get sick. So you must get insurance. That analogy still works.
 
1. You bring up a good point, but I think it's hard to tell the exact effect of the hardship waiver, because exact numbers (cutoffs) haven't been addressed, (or I don't know them, if someone does, let me know).

2. http://opinion.latimes.com/opinionla/2009/09/healthcare-cost-shifting.html
(I think this ER doc more poignantly addresses the point I'm dancing around)



Yes, but, you do own a "car," or in this case a body, that can get sick. So you must get insurance. That analogy still works.

No, it doesn't. I can decide whether or not I want to purchase car, and thus, secure insurance. My point still stands that the government does not have a Constitutional right to order me to purchase insurance. And boy am I glad for that; I enjoy being a free man.
 
How will the new bill affect psychiatrists' salaries? Considering they already make the lowest salaries of all doctors, will their salaries decrease even further?
 
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No, it doesn't. I can decide whether or not I want to purchase car, and thus, secure insurance. My point still stands that the government does not have a Constitutional right to order me to purchase insurance. And boy am I glad for that; I enjoy being a free man.

You are only fooling yourself. As long as public hospitals are required (by law) to treat anyone who walks into the door, the tax payers (through their elected representatives) can require (by law) that those people be required to get insurance.

Chimp, I don't know if you're republican or what your stances on other issues are but I find it funny how other republicans can cite 'the will of the people' when they refer to gay marriage (something that has absolutely no impact on others) but drum up 'constitutional rights' when all they are being asked to do is be responsible for their own fiscal liabilities and not be a burden to the state.
 
You are only fooling yourself. As long as public hospitals are required (by law) to treat anyone who walks into the door, the tax payers (through their elected representatives) can require (by law) that those people be required to get insurance.

Chimp, I don't know if you're republican or what your stances on other issues are but I find it funny how other republicans can cite 'the will of the people' when they refer to gay marriage (something that has absolutely no impact on others) but drum up 'constitutional rights' when all they are being asked to do is be responsible for their own fiscal liabilities and not be a burden to the state.

As I said before, those are the very people who are going to qualify for the hardship waivers. There's already a system in place for people who come through the door who don't have insurance - bill them directly. Problem is that those people are too poor to pay those bills, so it's irrelevant. Forcing people to buy insurance wouldn't change that one iota.

I'm neither Republican nor Democrat. I am in support of personal responsibility, and I think that policymakers in this country are doing nothing to encourage it (which is no surprise, since they can't seem to exercise personal responsibility themselves). I do think that it's a travesty that people are denied insurance because of pre-existing conditions and that we do need some kind of universal coverage. What we need is some sort of catastrophic coverage, not what's being posited now, so when someone does face a life threatening illness for which no insurance company will provide coverage, they're not left out to urinate in the wind.

I'm worried about our government's involvement in everything, and how policy seems to be subsidizing all sorts of unwise risk taking, be it personal, in the form of not purchasing insurance when one can afford it, or at the corporate level, where we're subsidizing losses of a bunch of companies that made unwise decisions. If we don't let people/companies realize there are consequences to actions, how will we ever incentivize prudent behaviour?

And I think the government has no business legislating one segment of the population's brand of morality. There is no good reason why it's 2009 and gay marriage is still illegal.
 
And I think the government has no business legislating one segment of the population's brand of morality. There is no good reason why it's 2009 and gay marriage is still illegal.

Of course there is, Marriage is defined as being between a woman and man. There fore two Men, or two woman can NOT by definition meet that. Therefore, they can't get married.

Should they have the same legal rights, for taxes, etc. etc. etc. Sure, who cares...

Anyway, I think you Chimp are technically a libertarian. Agree with your views on personal responsibility. If the government just instituted mandatory HSA's, making people responsible for saving for their healthcare yet covering catastrophic incidences that would be the best way to go.

Here's hoping that we can get out of medical school and pay off student loans before physician's salaries drop too much more...
 
I haven't read every post in this thread, but I get the gist, and I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.

1. I don't think that the cynicism towards the government is helpful. I'm not saying it's not well founded (it is), but the government is going to be there controlling things. We need to talk about what they need to do to fix the problem, not that "they are sh** and shouldn't be involved in anything ever!"

2. I also believe this needs to be done. I believe a form of universal healthcare is necessary and I think Obama is getting the picture with the letter's he's getting in the mail. As it's been said before, we are paying for the uninsured... everytime they go to the ER. And, by the way, if healthcare is a privilege, then why can't docs turn away patients in the ER? Healthcare is a right in this country, the question is how we're gonna pay for it. Basically, the reason that private insurance companies don't allow pre-existing conditions is the same reason the gov't is hemorrhaging money everytime an uninsured person enters the ER. So, either we can continue hemorrhaging money and "covering" these people, or we can force them to join in and pay a part of the pot.

3. As far as salaries, I'll take what I can get, but I didn't get into this for the money (by this I mean I got into it 25% for the money and 75% other reasons). Yes, if it was below a cut-off (for me around 50k), I wouldn't go to med school, but anything over (100k (+ inflation)) is bonus to me. I think everyone has their own personal range of "comfortable" salary, but I'm a pretty low maintenance person (basically if I have a computer and internet, I'm happy:)). Anyway, good luck to everyone, and I hope you learn to have faith in our government, hopefully through this reform going better than you expect. :)

As long as the computer is a Mac:D No PC bull**** for me! I didn't go to med school and become a doctor just to end up with a Dell!:D
 
If the government just instituted mandatory HSA's, making people responsible for saving for their healthcare yet covering catastrophic incidences that would be the best way to go.

THIS! Problem solved.
 
Chimp, I don't know if you're republican or what your stances on other issues are but I find it funny how other republicans can cite 'the will of the people' when they refer to gay marriage (something that has absolutely no impact on others) but drum up 'constitutional rights' when all they are being asked to do is be responsible for their own fiscal liabilities and not be a burden to the state.

There is no good reason why it's 2009 and gay marriage is still illegal.
There is no constitutional right for anyone to get married; the constitution makes no mention of marriage. Therefore, it is entirely a states' issue. While I personally believe that anyone should be able to do just about whatever they want, banning gay marriage is not unconstitutional and is dependent on the will of the people (however wrong those people may be in my or your opinion).
 
Sorry, but if you have a loan debt of 200,000 that accrues at 6.8%, 50,000 pre tax salary is extremely low.

If you spread the payments over 30 years, you would have to pay, roughly 30,000 of pre tax money towards your loan debt. That means that you would have 20,000 (gross) on which to live on.

I haven't posted in a long time but came across this forum. What this person says is indisputable. I consider myself going into medicine for reasons other than just money, BUT the bottom line is that doctors ought to be compensated well for this very reason. And by well I mean a six-figure salary. For 90% of all med students living on loans is necessary, and most people in this country wouldn't dream of paying off a loan balance of this amount over a lifetime in addition to a home mortgage. If the government subsidized our tuition and expenses while we are in med school, then of course I'd have a different opinion.

Someone with a huge student loan balance who says they would be willing to work for a low salary (50K-80K) and in addition accept lowered reimbursements from the government for their services is, IMO, someone who doesn't mind being financially taken advantage of.
 
I am a Med Peds and going to Cardiology fellowship. I consulted other fellows and they said they are making 120 k with moonlighting in their final and 2nd years. before my fellowship decision, Now I interviwed with this multispec group and single specialty grp. In suburbs of chicago single spec group offers 120 k. In Northeast one multi specialty group offered 140k for a 50 hour workweek. I asked them how many med peds they hired in last 4 yrs, they were honest 11 and ultimately 3 stayed. All the 3 did have some issues moving from area bcos of family issues. Also Multispec you have to cover their 40000 active pts every 3rd day! You have to see these guys physicans like us work 60 hrs and maintain the "Healthcare" managers (Practice administrators, chief pt compliance officer, chief pt safety officer, chief OO and CEO and chief what not!) These so called managers make 300 k while paying physicians 120 k!. Bottomline is that we work hard to contribute to their 300 k to 500k pensions for these good for nothing healthcare mangers(its easy to identify them you go to a Multispecialty group and then you see these armani suit clad men/women they will be having a laptop or file with them always and most impersonable people)
 
Sorry, but if you have a loan debt of 200,000 that accrues at 6.8%, 50,000 pre tax salary is extremely low.

If you spread the payments over 30 years, you would have to pay, roughly 30,000 of pre tax money towards your loan debt. That means that you would have 20,000 (gross) on which to live on.


" Yes, if it was below a cut-off (for me around 50k), "

I didn't say that it would be pretty, but I would still do it. I realize, however, that these are hypotheticals and it probably (hopefully) won't get this low, but if someone said to me, you can be a doctor for 50k, or find another job, I would hafta say I'll be the doctor. This might change if I decide I want to raise a family and such. This was just my personal bare minimum taking care of myself. I would feel comfortable with a higher salary (100k and above) however, just like everyone else.
 
So I guess you will be doing doctors without borders after you finish residency? and not worry about paying off your loan or living comfortably?

If someone said I could be a doctor for 50k a year and putting a large portion of that 50k towards what turns out to be a lifetime debt. You can be sure I would tell them to go eat feces.

By the time most of us finish medical school and residency we will be thinking about a family. So when you say "this might change" you really mean... "this will change even before I finish my residency." So either you never plan on having a family... or you have seriously miscalculated your future.

Why exactly do you even want to be a physician? From what it sounds like you're trying to make it sound like you just want to help people.

The new loan repayment laws limit the amount of money that can be taken off your income... but still why would anyone work so hard to get paid so little? If you were really the selfless person you are trying to make yourself out to be. You would not be going to medical school in the US, you would be doing volunteer work in refugee camps or African villages.

You're not fooling anyone.

Everyone wants to get paid for how hard they work. You can be sure that 99.99% of people would not be going to medical school if that means they would have to live off 50k the rest of their lives with a mountain of debt hanging over their head.

A couple of things....

1. I'm not trying to start a fight... so please calm down.
2. I am not saying that it's wrong to want to be compensated as a doctor.
3. I'm not lying.
4. I'm not lying to "seem selfless." I don't really understand this logic because this is an anonymous forum, so what benefit do i get for seeming selfless?
4. Why do I want to be a doctor? I do want to help people. That's one of many reasons. I don't feel like reiterating my personal statement, but it's more than just wanting to help people.

Look, maybe it'll explain much more if I tell you that a lot of my friends from back home are in families living below that $20,000 per year (and they don't have health insurance, so I might be a little biased about this reform bill;)). I'm not saying this to make anyone feel bad or anything, and I totally understand that different people expect different salaries (and also, I want to add that I don't hope for, or expect, a salary of $50,000), but personally, I could deal with earning $20,000 a year on my own (again, this would change if I decide I want to raise a family as the primary bread-winner). As for the doctors without borders thing, that is something I really am interested in, although I don't know if I will end up doing it. I will try to make this my last post on this thread so i don't feed a possible troll (or become labeled as one :scared:).
 
A couple of things....

1. I'm not trying to start a fight... so please calm down.
2. I am not saying that it's wrong to want to be compensated as a doctor.
3. I'm not lying.
4. I'm not lying to "seem selfless." I don't really understand this logic because this is an anonymous forum, so what benefit do i get for seeming selfless?
4. Why do I want to be a doctor? I do want to help people. That's one of many reasons. I don't feel like reiterating my personal statement, but it's more than just wanting to help people.

Look, maybe it'll explain much more if I tell you that a lot of my friends from back home are in families living below that $20,000 per year (and they don't have health insurance, so I might be a little biased about this reform bill;)). I'm not saying this to make anyone feel bad or anything, and I totally understand that different people expect different salaries (and also, I want to add that I don't hope for, or expect, a salary of $50,000), but personally, I could deal with earning $20,000 a year on my own (again, this would change if I decide I want to raise a family as the primary bread-winner). As for the doctors without borders thing, that is something I really am interested in, although I don't know if I will end up doing it. I will try to make this my last post on this thread so i don't feed a possible troll (or become labeled as one :scared:).
Families that make less than 20000 per year should qualify for medicaid. So they should have insurance. Therefore, the health bills in congress likely won't affect these families, except for maybe decreased access from reimbursement cuts.
 
Not according to the sources I posted above (guess you missed those huh?). Not according to Salary.com. Not according to jobs listed on career finder sites. Not according to the pay scale here at my facility. Not according to any of the NPs I asked.


I would love it if NPs made what you are quoting but the truth is that they don't. Just like RNs (and especially not RN-ADNs) don't usually average 80K. I would love to make 80K. I would also love to make 80K-110K if I were an NP. So would all my colleagues.

Source 1
Source 2
Source 3
The percentages in bold below are based on 6,162 responses...."9. If full time, what is your current annual salary (including bonuses and call pay, but not including nonmonetary benefits) as paid by your primary employer? $81,397 average - the low end of what you have quoted.
Source 4



.....if you want more, google it yourself.


This is interesting. And how accurate do you think reports on Doctors salaries are? I have been reading them for 25 years now, I am a physician, and I employ physicians, nurses, and a lot of other folks employed in the healthcare spectrum. Nurse Practitioners make 80-110K and sometimes more. Salary.com isn't at all vaild as a data repository.

I am glad you can google though. That will be useful I am sure. When you have some of your own hiring experiences to share and have firsthand knowledge of nurse pracitioner salaries, feel free to share that.
 
Noirukiddingme,

I would not label you a troll; rather, I believe that your idealism is merely a function of your stage in the game / life. There's nothing wrong with that per se, but it would behoove you to give a modicum of consideration to the opinions of those who are further along in the game than yourself, identify their biases, and make a logical conclusion (hopefully based on factual data supported by historical precedent rather than the knee jerk "I think" or some emotionally driven response). If you do this, you should come to a very similar conclusion that many of us have -- increased federal involvement will be detrimental to the providers of any service, medicine included; the end game of such a system will be ultimately detrimental to all impacted by the system. Remove autonomy and incentive without addressing the negatives and there will be consequences.
 
This is interesting. And how accurate do you think reports on Doctors salaries are? I have been reading them for 25 years now, I am a physician, and I employ physicians, nurses, and a lot of other folks employed in the healthcare spectrum. Nurse Practitioners make 80-110K and sometimes more. Salary.com isn't at all vaild as a data repository.

I am glad you can google though. That will be useful I am sure. When you have some of your own hiring experiences to share and have firsthand knowledge of nurse pracitioner salaries, feel free to share that.

Ditto the above. Salary surveys are notoriously erroneous; even the MGMA is suspect -- and I believe that they have arguably the best data for larger institutions. Every established NP that I personally know in the field of dermatology, at least, makes north of 100k. Starting salaries ranged from 75-90k for 4.5d/week, with an incentive structure based upon production above that.
 
I get very insulted and angry when people say that if I am concerned about physician salaries dropping I got into this for the wrong reasons. I have to just guess that a large percentage of these people have either (a) never been to medical school or (b) went to medical school but are already rich.

Listen, I want to be a doctor. I want to practice medicine and help patients and have every day be new and different and exciting, and all that good stuff, but medical school/internship/residency is extremely tough and taxing. Its an investment of not only years of my life, stress, and effort, but an invesment of loads of money on tuition/books/medical supplies/etc. Not to mention the expense of the doctors visits I have because I think I have leukemia because I have a slight fever (medical student syndrome).

I NEED to know that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. I need the motivation that when I'm done here and I'm a practicing doctor, these financial stresses of living meagerly and not making any large purchases will no longer be there. I need to know that I will be able to achieve my dream of practicing medicine and working hard every day while also living a very comfortable lifestyle. And for anybody to degrade a medical student/doctor for that is an ignorant and pretentious way to be.
 
Ditto the above. Salary surveys are notoriously erroneous; even the MGMA is suspect -- and I believe that they have arguably the best data for larger institutions. Every established NP that I personally know in the field of dermatology, at least, makes north of 100k. Starting salaries ranged from 75-90k for 4.5d/week, with an incentive structure based upon production above that.

I find it very interesting that salary surveys for NPs are underestimated and the salary surveys for doctors are overestimated. Do we have a user error? An interpretation error? A bias error? Or maybe the government is in on this too? I would appreciate if anyone could explain this discrepancy. If the salaries are underestimated for NPs, those same surveys should also be underestimated for doctors. Ergo doctors should be making more money than reported and the numerous comments on these forums about the inflated values of those salaries must be conveniently biased.
 
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There should be a new thread with a new rule: if you are going to ridicule someone's plan, either offer your own plan or be quiet altogether. I am not partisan, but republicans are definitely in the "no-plan" zone. Recently, after years of pure accusations and no plan, they seem to have put up some sort of plan-like skeleton on their website where some of the ideas are fine, but it seems that we are far from a cooperation. The only republican solution is "cut taxes." Bush did it for the last decade. I guess that's why the apotheosis of our economy is so orgasmic now that we can't even afford to have a healthcare plan. Don't even think about bringing up the expenses of these damn wars as an excuse.

I don't know what the issue is. Right now there are a lot of people who have no insurance. They wait until their condition is very exacerbated and then walk into the ER. The law says they must be treated and they usually are. The hospital ends up with a large bill that the patient isn't going to be able to pay. So, is this the cost effective way to handle the issue? The fact is that we are already paying for those who can't afford to pay. What the government is trying to do is introduce a standardized way of handling this problem so that maybe at least the cost of the cure will be less than if the same uninsured person had to wait until she's near-death to go to the ER, which is extremely expensive. Is the government's plan the best? I don't know. I don't think this has been analyzed enough. But it is very clear that something must be done. Just because we are trying to pass a bill doesn't mean that the medical field isn't already affected by those who can't afford to pay. Sometimes I think of this bill as a major transition where instead of the private industry it will be the taxpayer that will pay for the medical services of the uninsured. And since the government will be paying, it might have to look at cutting costs and this is where the doctors might see decreased reimbursements. Therein lies the problem. Maybe a more manageable solution would be to create an oversight agency over the insurance companies that will keep their premiums medically sound and at the same time instead of offering insurance to everyone, the government only allows those with certain income cutoff level to take advantage of lower premiums. In other words, probably the most painless solution is to extend the medicaid program rather than offer medicare to everyone.
 
I find it very interesting that salary surveys for NPs are underestimated and the salaries for doctors are overestimated. Do we have a user error? An interpretation error? A bias error? Or maybe the government is in on this too? I would appreciate if anyone could explain this discrepancy. If the salaries are underestimated for NPs, those same surveys should also be underestimated for doctors. Ergo doctors should be making more money than reported and the numerous comments on these forums about the inflated values of those salaries must be conveniently biased.


The first thing that you have to look at is the methodology of the survey and the how "income" is defined. If you were to do that what you would find is that "income" is not uniformly defined and that the methodologies employed are somewhat lacking. Some use recruiting offers. Some use self reported income. Some use practice manager data. Some include retirement and all MD related expenses, others do not. This is why you see such wide variance across survey platforms for like specialties.

The same may be true for NP/PA's, I don't know. I have never looked into it that closely. What I can tell you is this -- final take home pay varies widely within specialties, across specialties, and by setting due more to individual practice characteristics than specialty selection. These surveys do often over state income across the board as they do not standardize for work hours, do not account for the large number of part time providers, and tend to report the median rather than a true statistical analysis of the data. I can say this with a degree of confidence because for the better part of two decades I have been a serious student of physician compensation structures, trends, and statistics. NP/PA data, in theory, should be more reliable as their data should be more tightly grouped with an expected smaller standard deviation.
 
There should be a new thread with a new rule: if you are going to ridicule someone's plan, either offer your own plan or be quiet altogether. I am not partisan, but republicans are definitely in the "no-plan" zone. ....

This one may take a beer... or three, but what the hell -- I need to keep the Miller bottlers employed.....

First question -- "Do we have a healthcare crisis?"

Next question -- "What are the elements of the crisis?"

Next question -- "What are the specific causative factors?"

Next question -- "What can we do to address these identified factors?"

It has to flow in that order. We cannot "generate" a crisis just to "generate" a need for change to fix it. We did that with the creation and adoption of Medicare, and look at how well that has worked out. Most agree that we have a problem, and a rather significant one at that. The primary party in "crisis", however, is the government payors and those who, for whatever reason, have inadequate insurance.

Assuming that we agree that there indeed are problems tantamount to a crisis, the base problems are twofold: access and cost. It is my contention that these are not mutually exclusive issues; gaining a handle on costs will improve access MUCH more than the other way around. This is where the Dems get it wrong -- assuming their goal ever was to address the actual problems in healthcare delivery, an assumption that is suspect at best. One can be "insured" and lack access -- ask any Medicaid patient in states with poor Medicaid fee schedules if their "access" is adequate -- so "insurance" alone does not equate "access". "Cost" is an even bigger problem; the reasons for this are legion, but in order to discuss this one must understand (and acknowledge) that all of healthcare operates in an environment of relative price fixing -- with the price fixing apparatus being Medicare itself. You can think of this conceptually (rather simply) as this: Medicare sets the bar for pricing. For MC patients, this is fixed and non-negotiable. While it is true that private insurers negotiate payment rates, MC is used as the benchmark. The degree of variance from MC should be thought of as elastic bands attached to the MC bar, and is relative to the insurer and provider market in any given locale. The greater the competition on the provider side, the less the elasticity to the (+)MC fees, the greater the insurance competition the greater the elasticity to the (+)MC fee potential, and so on for the various competitive environments. Regardless, the price remains relatively fixed across the board, with the variances in the private sector being a game of minimal percentages.

As an aside, at this point I would like to point out this: in a fixed price environment, service / good consumption assumes an equal role in determining total expenditures. This is why some form of rationing must take place....

If we were able to control costs and consumption, out of pocket pay would be more affordable, insurance premiums should be more affordable, etc, but how do we get there? The degree to which savings can be realized through pricing pressures is finite; prices can only go down to the level of costs, so the savings there are inadequate to make a significant dent in the overall expenditure trends. Further, we are restricted in our capacity for increased productivity to offset price declines in medicine due to the relative inability to automate many of the necessary processes. The only way to effectively "bend the cost curve" is to restrict the volume of services. That's it. Free market forces could drive down specific sector costs quite likely, but even that will not address the structural problem that we have; our problem has not been one of price escalation, it has been one of increased utilization.

My solution would be based on two principles predominantly:

-allow the market to determine appropriate pricing levels
-acknowledge and accept that some degree of rationing is necessary, the degree to which will be determined by available funding and whatever list of services the risk carrying entity chooses to cover

The government really has no justifiable role in determining either of these issues.
 
I am a Med Peds and going to Cardiology fellowship. I consulted other fellows and they said they are making 120 k with moonlighting in their final and 2nd years. before my fellowship decision, Now I interviwed with this multispec group and single specialty grp. In suburbs of chicago single spec group offers 120 k. In Northeast one multi specialty group offered 140k for a 50 hour workweek. I asked them how many med peds they hired in last 4 yrs, they were honest 11 and ultimately 3 stayed. All the 3 did have some issues moving from area bcos of family issues. Also Multispec you have to cover their 40000 active pts every 3rd day! You have to see these guys physicans like us work 60 hrs and maintain the "Healthcare" managers (Practice administrators, chief pt compliance officer, chief pt safety officer, chief OO and CEO and chief what not!) These so called managers make 300 k while paying physicians 120 k!. Bottomline is that we work hard to contribute to their 300 k to 500k pensions for these good for nothing healthcare mangers(its easy to identify them you go to a Multispecialty group and then you see these armani suit clad men/women they will be having a laptop or file with them always and most impersonable people)

Oh, My god, how dare they offer this little peanuts!!!!The 120K is a shamful,shamful peanuts, I wuld rather stay home and enjoy my life. 120K is even less than a pharmacist's pay or a NP or PA pay. Just tell them go to hell.
 
haha, that is crazy, but depends on the area I guess. Urban area (ie Chicago, blah, blah) saturated by docs. Our HMO offers 180K for FPs straight out of residency, but then again living situation is awful, so you make your choice.
 
Oh, My god, how dare they offer this little peanuts!!!!The 120K is a shamful,shamful peanuts, I wuld rather stay home and enjoy my life. 120K is even less than a pharmacist's pay or a NP or PA pay. Just tell them go to hell.

It IS a NP's pay. Most NPs in that position work standard business hours (9-5ish) and make around 75k for their 40 hours. Basic math will tell you if you're then working 60 hours to make 120k...
 
There should be a new thread with a new rule: if you are going to ridicule someone's plan, either offer your own plan or be quiet altogether. I am not partisan, but republicans are definitely in the "no-plan" zone. Recently, after years of pure accusations and no plan, they seem to have put up some sort of plan-like skeleton on their website where some of the ideas are fine, but it seems that we are far from a cooperation. The only republican solution is "cut taxes." Bush did it for the last decade. I guess that's why the apotheosis of our economy is so orgasmic now that we can't even afford to have a healthcare plan. Don't even think about bringing up the expenses of these damn wars as an excuse.

This outlook is both justified and dangerous. Its 100% true that people who think there is a problem (which should be damn near everyone) should have some sort of idea on what could help solve that problem. So simply shooting down other people's ideas isn't a legitimate basis of reform. HOWEVER, many many people (especially the leftists) have capitalized on this outlook to espouse the healthcare bills as godsends because the government is finally "doing something."

This attitude of better doing something than nothing (because doing nothing-->certain collapse) has a critical flaw: it assumes that our healthcare system can't get any worse. The opposite is true--it can get worse. Thats why rushing reform through everything for self-imposed deadlines/election reasons is about as bad as a basis for sound reform as we can get. So before hating on Republicans for being the party of "no," understand that they are filling a crucial role in stopping the dems from destroying healthcare by forcing compromise.

So be aware that reform/=better. It could easily get much worse. Just ask anyone in California/the UC system a few months from now if he/she thought it could become any crappier of a state....
 
My solution would be based on two principles predominantly:

-allow the market to determine appropriate pricing levels
-acknowledge and accept that some degree of rationing is necessary, the degree to which will be determined by available funding and whatever list of services the risk carrying entity chooses to cover

The government really has no justifiable role in determining either of these issues.

The post that accompanied this conclusion is possibly the most convoluted economic thinking I have ever read. That is saying a lot, since armchair economics has become a popular pastime lately when talking about health care. My favorite line:

The only way to effectively "bend the cost curve" is to restrict the volume of services. That's it. Free market forces could drive down specific sector costs quite likely, but even that will not address the structural problem that we have; our problem has not been one of price escalation, it has been one of increased utilization.

I love how people put such blind faith in arguments they clearly don't even understand. First of all, rationing is just distributing scarce goods. ALL goods are scarce (no product or service is available in unlimited quantity) so all distribution of goods is rationing. A free market, in which goods are exchanged according to terms agreed at the mutual consent of private parties, is simply one mechanism for rationing. There are infinite other devisable methods of distributing scarce goods.

One prominent economic theory is that, under very specific assumptions (perfect competition), a free market will result in an allocation of goods that maximizes the sum of individual utilities. A couple of problems applying this to our health care market: first, there are an infinite number of ways to maximize the sum of individual utilities, and many of them are socially undesireable (e.g. if many people are left without access to health care); second, our health care market is not, and for many reasons cannot ever be, perfectly competitive, so the "magic" of the free market has serious limitations in its applicability.

Given that we spend more per capita than any other developed country in the world and STILL don't cover everyone, it seems obvious that other people have figured out a better way to pay for health care. Universally, this amounts to either strict government regulation of prices (Japan, Switzerland), a single payer insurance system (Canada), or government management of health care providers (UK). (I prefer the single payer model.) Regardless of whatever ideological objections you may have to government intervention in the economy, it's eventually just insanity to ignore irrefutable empirical evidence.
 
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Given that we spend more per capita than any other developed country in the world and STILL don't cover everyone, it seems obvious that other people have figured out a better way to pay for health care. Universally, this amounts to either strict government regulation of prices (Japan, Switzerland), a single payer insurance system (Canada), or government management of health care providers (UK). (I prefer the single payer model.) Regardless of whatever ideological objections you may have to government intervention in the economy, it's eventually just insanity to ignore irrefutable empirical evidence.
Its also irresponsible to assume that the USA is comparable to other countries. Our population is ethnically and culturally far more diverse than Japan, Canada, Switzerland, Britain, etc. This leads to a slew of problems, like a plague of gunshot wounds and drug addiction on the medical end, and a racist political fractionism that results in legislative paralysis on the political end. Not to mention the huge welfare entitlement attitude that people have grown dependent on. All of these are things that other countries dont have to deal with (at least not to the same degree), so of course we are going to end up spending more money.

Just saying that other countries managed to do it "better" than us is not evidence that their way would work here, let alone if it would work "better."
 
its also irresponsible to assume that the usa is comparable to other countries. Our population is ethnically and culturally far more diverse than japan, canada, switzerland, britain, etc. This leads to a slew of problems, like a plague of gunshot wounds and drug addiction on the medical end, and a racist political fractionism that results in legislative paralysis on the political end. Not to mention the huge welfare entitlement attitude that people have grown dependent on. All of these are things that other countries dont have to deal with (at least not to the same degree), so of course we are going to end up spending more money.

Just saying that other countries managed to do it "better" than us is not evidence that their way would work here, let alone if it would work "better."

this^
 
Its also irresponsible to assume that the USA is comparable to other countries. Our population is ethnically and culturally far more diverse than Japan, Canada, Switzerland, Britain, etc. This leads to a slew of problems, like a plague of gunshot wounds and drug addiction on the medical end, and a racist political fractionism that results in legislative paralysis on the political end. Not to mention the huge welfare entitlement attitude that people have grown dependent on. All of these are things that other countries dont have to deal with (at least not to the same degree), so of course we are going to end up spending more money.

Just saying that other countries managed to do it "better" than us is not evidence that their way would work here, let alone if it would work "better."

Well, Chestnut, we can't do much worse than we are now. I don't think you appreciate the magnitude of the difference in our costs. Take a look at the actual numbers from 2006 below and maybe it will help you get the picture. We spent nearly twice per person as Canada, Germany, and France, and well over twice as much as Great Britain and Japan. You can't plausibly tell me that our multicultural society or higher murder rate somehow makes providing health care in this country inherently that much more expensive. (Interestingly, the most expensive European countries are some of the smaller, most racially homogeneous, while the largest and most multicultural, like France, Germany, and especially UK, are much cheaper.) It is much more plausible to say that we have failed to provide a rational regulatory framework for health insurance and delivery, and instead largely left allocation and price decisions to a dysfunctional marketplace.

Per capita spending on health care (PPP), Kaiser Foundation

1 United States of America $6,719
2 Monaco $5,585
3 Luxembourg $5,494
4 Norway $4,519
5 Malta $4,223
6 Switzerland $4,179
7 Denmark $3,773
8 Canada $3,673
9 Austria $3,608
10 Netherlands $3,481
11 Germany $3,465
12 France $3,420
13 San Marino $3,238
14 Iceland $3,207
15 Sweden $3,162
16 Australia $3,119
17 Ireland $3,106
18 Andorra $2,980
19 United Kingdom $2,815
20 Cyprus $2,754
21 Finland $2,656
22 Italy $2,631
23 Japan $2,581

And while I have your attention, how would you propose to change our system? Or do you think everything is fine the way it is?
 
The simple way to fix healthcare is just to roll back all of our technology to 20 years ago. Bam, all cost problems abolished and our per capita expenditure would be at the bottom of your nifty list. Another possibility would be to start denying most advanced health care to sr. citizens, since they suck up an enormously disproportionate amount of healthcare dollars. As MOHS said, the only way to actually reduce cost significantly is to cut back services. Socialized countries like the UK and Canada do just that, but try getting the avg. American to jump onto that boat and see what happens.

Obviously our system is broken and this needs to be addressed. Currently technology, ridiculous privacy legal requirements, and senior citizen entitlement care are the big problems. Halting technology is out of the question (although a more judicious use of it would seem appropriate), the lawyers wont let HIPPA change, and senior citizens are the most powerful voting bloc in the US=we cant fix health care under our current political system unless fiscal Armageddon forces politicians to make unpopular moves. So the answer is--I have no solution. Our representatives are too impotent to cut back on senior citizens (even though they need to--we give seniors the best care in the world, with second place coming in a decade behind us). They are also mostly lawyers=little chance of empowering anything that could hurt that group (like a national record network that could save tens of billions).

Since you voiced your support of single payer, I'd like to hear how/why you think the US government, which has utterly failed to run any large scale social/public program under (or hell, even AT) its projected cost, would be a great candidate to take control of healthcare. When you remove competition from the picture, you remove innovation, improvement, and absolutely most important--accountability.

From the self-preservation perspective:
Giving the entire market share of patients to one insurance company (ie the government) would effectively kill the ability of physicians to negotiate pay. We would be, in effect, public employees whose salary, scope, and independence would be ultimately up to the crooked people who run the country.
I dont know where your faith in politicians comes from, but when I see senator X swear on Jesus to vote no on anything that says "public option" regardless of what else might be in it, or Senator Y refuse to support anything that actually enforces immigration laws because they are racist against his (illegal) Hispanic caucus, or Senator Z denounce the cost of the Healthcare bill because its too expensive....until it adds an extra $300M for her district in New Orleans, I know that putting these *****s in charge of my career is akin to handing a grenade to chimpanzee and giving it a piggy-back ride for the rest of my life. No thanks.
 
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The simple way to fix healthcare is just to roll back all of our technology to 20 years ago. Bam, all cost problems abolished and our per capita expenditure would be at the bottom of your nifty list. Another possibility would be to start denying most advanced health care to sr. citizens, since they suck up an enormously disproportionate amount of healthcare dollars. As MOHS said, the only way to actually reduce cost significantly is to cut back services. Socialized countries like the UK and Canada do just that, but try getting the avg. American to jump onto that boat and see what happens.

Obviously our system is broken and this needs to be addressed. Currently technology, ridiculous privacy legal requirements, and senior citizen entitlement care are the big problems. Halting technology is out of the question (although a more judicious use of it would seem appropriate), the lawyers wont let HIPPA change, and senior citizens are the most powerful voting bloc in the US=we cant fix health care under our current political system unless fiscal Armageddon forces politicians to make unpopular moves. So the answer is--I have no solution. Our representatives are too impotent to cut back on senior citizens (even though they need to--we give seniors the best care in the world, with second place coming in a decade behind us). They are also mostly lawyers=little chance of empowering anything that could hurt that group (like a national record network that could save tens of billions).

Since you voiced your support of single payer, I'd like to hear how/why you think the US government, which has utterly failed to run any large scale social/public program under (or hell, even AT) its projected cost, would be a great candidate to take control of healthcare. When you remove competition from the picture, you remove innovation, improvement, and absolutely most important--accountability.

From the self-preservation perspective:
Giving the entire market share of patients to one insurance company (ie the government) would effectively kill the ability of physicians to negotiate pay. We would be, in effect, public employees whose salary, scope, and independence would be ultimately up to the crooked people who run the country.

I dont know where your faith in politicians comes from, but when I see senator X swear on Jesus to vote no on anything that says "public option" regardless of what else might be in it, or Senator Y refuse to support anything that actually enforces immigration laws because they are racist against his (illegal) Hispanic caucus, or Senator Z denounce the cost of the Healthcare bill because its too expensive....until it adds an extra $300M for her district in New Orleans, I know that putting these *****s in charge of my career is akin to handing a grenade to chimpanzee and giving it a piggy-back ride for the rest of my life. No thanks.

I'll take the bolded points one at a time.

The first statement is ridiculous in light of the cost statistics I just posted. Western Europeans, Canadians, and Japanese enjoy care that is equivalent to ours.

The second bold is also flatly wrong. It has been shown that patients in other industrialized countries do not generally use fewer services than we do. The Japanese, for example, have been shown to use imaging procedures at a much higher rate than Americans. No, a huge portion of our waste is in unnecessary administrative expenses, especially costs brought on by our ridiculously complicated payment system. (http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2...ch-part-ii-indefensible-administrative-costs/) Insurers create custom contracts for their group and individual policies, and when claims are filed each one must be checked against the policy to determine coverage, copay, and coinsurance. When coverage is ambiguous in a policy, appeals and litigation cost both the insurer and the insured. The complexity of compliance with claims procedures costs providers as well in salaries for extra administrative staff and longer hours for physicians. By contrast most countries have standardized insurance contracts or have a single payer.

Third bold, I didn't ask you what could happen this year, I asked you what ought to be done. I support single payer even though it's clearly not in the cards, until perhaps our medical costs cause a fiscal disaster as you say. It seems obvious to me, by the way, that main reason we can't get real reform this year is because there are too many parties with a financial interest in the status quo. All of that waste that I'm talking about is money in someone's pocket, and they aren't going to give that up quietly.

Fourth bold, this argument holds no water. Anybody that seriously considers the issue can see the government does many things very well, including many things that would never have been done if left to the private sector. I think single payer will work here because it has worked in every other industrialized country that has tried it, and because Medicare is the most administratively efficient insurance scheme in the country today. Incidentally, the argument that you and other people advance that the government's ineptitude in administrating health care is proven because it is projected to go broke by 2017 is a total fallacy. The reason it's scheduled to go broke is that incoming payments (Medicare taxes) are projected to be insufficient to cover outlays. This is a demographic problem - an ever larger retired population is going to need health care - that will burden our system and our economy regardless of how health care is paid for. Medicare (or an equivalent single payer system), given it's low administrative costs and the ease with which comparative effectiveness research results could be incorporated into coverage policy, is an ideal venue in which to deal with these issues.

Fifth bold, we would not be public emplyees, we would be free to practice as we choose, but you are correct that the government would have market power to determine provider payments. I don't argue that we shouldn't be concerned with our pay, but if you use this as a reason to oppose a rational remake of our payment system, then you are no better than all of the other monied interests trying to preserve the status quo. I think a better approach would be to use our considerable lobby to preserve fair pay for doctors, especially considering the huge amount of work it takes, and the level of debt we take on in training. Experience in other countries suggests that salaries would decrease some, but doctors live quite comfortably everywhere in the industrialized world.

Sixth bold, our democracy is far from perfect. Lawmakers are subject to many conflicts of interest. But it usually works in the end, and is the best system that exists. So my answer is that we can either trust politicians, who ultimately answer to voters in spite of any conflicts of interest. Or we can trust private health insurers who, while they may be made up of ethical individuals, ultimately answer to their investors whose interests are profits, and as I've already pointed out the profit motive only theoretically works for the public good in very limited circumstances, which are not applicable to our health care markets.
 
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Doctors have no lobby power buddy. Take a look at what both bills do to physician pay. We are, by far, the least important group to politicians because we have the least votes and lobbying money. Whether we would be formally recognized as public employees is irrelevant--you would derive all of your income from the government and have no possible alternative source/market=a public employee in my book. It is actually much to the government's benefit to not recognize us as such because it enables them to prevent unionization.

Bottom line: If the government takes over, you can have an ironclad guarantee that you will get ****ed eventually.

To anyone: I wonder how China and Russia are doing with healthcare? I never hear mention of them. Given that their economies are fairly large/developed and were formerly based on socialism, I would like to know what the socialism experts think of socialized healthcare.
 
Doctors have no lobby power buddy. Take a look at what both bills do to physician pay. We are, by far, the least important group to politicians because we have the least votes and lobbying money. Whether we would be formally recognized as public employees is irrelevant--you would derive all of your income from the government and have no possible alternative source/market=a public employee in my book. It is actually much to the government's benefit to not recognize us as such because it enables them to prevent unionization.

Bottom line: If the government takes over, you can have an ironclad guarantee that you will get ****ed eventually.

To anyone: I wonder how China and Russia are doing with healthcare? I never hear mention of them. Given that their economies are fairly large/developed and were formerly based on socialism, I would like to know what the socialism experts think of socialized healthcare.


:thumbup:
 
Doctors have no lobby power buddy. Take a look at what both bills do to physician pay. We are, by far, the least important group to politicians because we have the least votes and lobbying money. Whether we would be formally recognized as public employees is irrelevant--you would derive all of your income from the government and have no possible alternative source/market=a public employee in my book. It is actually much to the government's benefit to not recognize us as such because it enables them to prevent unionization.

Bottom line: If the government takes over, you can have an ironclad guarantee that you will get ****ed eventually.

To anyone: I wonder how China and Russia are doing with healthcare? I never hear mention of them. Given that their economies are fairly large/developed and were formerly based on socialism, I would like to know what the socialism experts think of socialized healthcare.

Your comparing us to China and Russia makes clear you have no idea what you're talking about. At this point they are not "developed" in any reasonable economic sense of the word. Their economic output per person is a small fraction of developed western countries, and therefore they do not have the capacity to deliver health care to their citizens in the way rich western countries can.

Also, what most people would object to about the governments of Russia and China is that they trample on civil liberties, not that they provide too many services to their citizens. You might argue that a single payer system would cause our government to trample on civil liberties. But if you do that, you have to contend again with the many examples of single payer systems in which citizens report greater happiness with their health care systems than we have in the US. The difference in western democracies and other countries that are more vulnerable to abuse of civil liberties is that we have strong democratic institutions, including an independent judiciary and reasonable integrity of our electoral system, that protect us. People in Canada, the Nordic countries, France, and elsewhere in western Europe enjoy all of the civil liberties that we do in spte of blatantly socilistic economic policies.
 
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