Pharmacy school has turned into a complete joke!

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Digsbe said:
I wouldn't say pharm school is a joke either. I know friends with 3.0+ GPA's and pharm work experience that didn't get into schools this cycle or got interviews despite good LORs. There are still standards, I know people complain and there may be exceptions to the rule with students with lower stats getting in but I don't know of schools with reported averages of under 3.0 GPAs or abysmal PCAT scores being the norm.
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maybe your friend make the mistake of applying to only top schools ??

google and/or checked out PharmCAS school directory for those stats...


Some areas may be saturated, but also consider that the economy went to pot and that's when many markets got scaled back. I have friends in nursing who are having trouble with the job search, I know many others who got laid off and many other professions being saturated. After the economy went down lots of sectors took hits, if I'm not mistaken physicians also typically took pay cuts or didn't see increases with some areas like radiology being "saturated" in certain markets (can't verify this info, just what I've heard). Not only this, but people took huge hits to their retirement investments to many who were set to retire still work to earn money that they lost when their retirement investments crashed with the economy. As the economy recovers it may take a while for things to bounce back as well when it comes to the job world.
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Yes new pharm schools have opened, but there was a pretty big projected shortage prior to these schools which is what drove them to open. Sure, some programs see it as a cash cow but others with established rotations, in my opinion, are pretty solid and did open with the mission of being a healthcare focused institution and a PharmD being a beneficial degree for them to award when there appeared to be a mass shortage and job shortage in the future. Now, too many schools probably had this view, but I don't think it's the end of the world that everyone thinks.
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please provide your source of data / info where you see the shortage was. Mind you, there are still schools which have recently opened, cited shortage of pharmacists as the reason for their schools to open.


In my area we have tons of job openings for clinical pharmacy positions and most institutions from what I've seen are considering expansions and more pharmacy involvement in their institutions. Retail may not be a garunteed job with a big salary anymore because many want to go into it, but just from what I've seen clinical pharmacy appears to be growing, and with more awareness going on and possibly provider status paying for clinical pharmacy work in certain areas I think it's going to be more mainstream. Retail may become saturated, but I think clinical pharmacy is expanding.
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tons = how many ?? and where ??

again, please give some numbers and sources of your info where you see those openings. If you can do that, your opinion and argument would have more weight, and many people will thank you for that.
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CogNeuroGuy said:
That is correct, I got a 3%. Frankly, it was due to the fact I had no respect for the test and literally went in there just pressing ****, on the verbal I did attempt some stuff. The AW was easy for me, I never even needed to practice. I do better with analytics, especially more of the verbal and creative forms of analyses. But yeah...I got into U. Texas, I graduate in May, even worked at UT Southwestern in neurology and neuropsychology, so I accomplished what I set out to do.
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Yikes. I wouldn't suggest playing Black Jack or roulette.
 
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PharmDCandidate2014 said:
Yikes. I wouldn't suggest playing Black Jack or roulette.
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Even if you press all B's shouldn't you at least get a 25%? It seems harder to get a 3% than a 25%...


edit oops meant to quote op
 
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Really? Pressing all B's I could have gotten 25%??? :p Damn, this is good to know.
 
CogNeuroGuy said:
I did read your posts as well as the others, I am simply providing you a disagreement and an alternative analysis or perspectives for others to consider, much like what you have provided. My point is that you are assuming that society is flourishing with people who can readily take on jobs that require certain cognitive capacities and skill sets.
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nope, I have never said that. Read again. I said that I would like for those who have the smart and aptitude, i.e. those who can, that there are more career options than pharmacy, and not everyone can do that, and that you have to consider the reality in pharmacy and your own situation to decide for yourself if you can and still want to pursue pharmacy.


So, much like any profession, it really is up to what a person feels comfortable in terms of employment outlook, their finances, their strengths and weaknesses in academia as well as what they can see themselves working in (e.g. environment, personality, etc.).
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If you read my post carefully, I do not disagree with you on this point. I only want people to know and consider the reality in pharmacy.


Like I mentioned in the other thread, simply packing up shop may not be an option for everyone, and frankly, I would question those who do because they are faced with an adverse situation and forced to make another one that may be primarily financially motivated. Don't get me wrong, I work in a field where we all wish we were paid for what we are worth, but the reality of it is that most people who get into my field (psychology) do it for alternative reasons. If they like what they do, they have some reasonable capacity to function cognitively, the money will come.

....and I never worked at Burger King, I used that as a dramatization/point.
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CogNeuroGuy said:
At this point, I would ask you where should I go if I decide to ditch my profession? There are people in many of the forums who have this approach that you speak of. I ask you, where should I go? If I were a student trying to take your advice, should I just force myself to like numbers to become an accountant? Be in misery? Should I try more and more professions and hop around? I'm getting older, those luxuries are fading away, so, if pharmacy is tanking, dentistry is tanking, nursing is tanking, vet. school is tanking, ****, it seems like I should pick up a job as a janitor, no debt, few responsibilities...how perfect. There are several times I considered just bailing out, maybe I could force myself to understand advanced math or physics to do engineering....but why? I wouldn't enjoy it, it would be just a job like working at WalMart, then it would be about the money, right?

These are fairly common scenarios that are important to consider as much as you are try to provide your facts as well.
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there is a principle in medicine, "First, do no harm." Have you considered the option of doing nothing ??
 
CogNeuroGuy said:
At this point, I would ask you where should I go if I decide to ditch my profession? There are people in many of the forums who have this approach that you speak of. I ask you, where should I go? If I were a student trying to take your advice, should I just force myself to like numbers to become an accountant? Be in misery? Should I try more and more professions and hop around? I'm getting older, those luxuries are fading away, so, if pharmacy is tanking, dentistry is tanking, nursing is tanking, vet. school is tanking, ****, it seems like I should pick up a job as a janitor, no debt, few responsibilities...how perfect. There are several times I considered just bailing out, maybe I could force myself to understand advanced math or physics to do engineering....but why? I wouldn't enjoy it, it would be just a job like working at WalMart, then it would be about the money, right?

These are fairly common scenarios that are important to consider as much as you are try to provide your facts as well.
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be a cop bang bang!.......bang! pension hallelujah!

I have to disagree with Ph.Ds oldstock, not sure how the topic derailed there but Ph.Ds don't make money for the most part. Depends on your field of study, math can get hired on Wall St, or teach high schoolers, medieval studies, errrr, sports medicine, errr, women's studies??!! errr. but phd is also years lost from not working. phd is definitely not a field worth doing if you want $$. and i think it's suicide to do a phd without a clinical/or other degree (MD, NP, PharmD, JD, engineering). most people are aware that for vast majority, phd isn't worth the time. in some cases yes and for a lucky few, phd is great but for many not so much. it's worse than pharmacy, maybe worse than law even.

if a student liked accounting, or other fields maybe switch, pharmacy isn't the only field. the concern i have is that more students are picking pharmacy because they feel like it's their only choice at a certain lifestyle without considering other fields they might enjoy more. the reason is because those fields are harder to get into and somehow pharmacy has for some students become this job where you don't talk to anyone, make 6 figures, you're absolutely guaranteed to find work wherever you go or have little difficulty. there's a difference in prepharmers in expectations and reality that is driving some to make misinformed potentially financially disastrous decisions. i've seen this in some in real life and i just know they're going to be disappointed but i keep my mouth shut when maybe i should warn just a little. and often they overestimate themselves. your husband doesn't seem that way as he already has a masters, is international (imo than a better more mature student than americans). but there are some who really shouldn't be doing pharmacy, especially the ones failing naplex unless it's cause of a panic or nervous breakdown, there shouldn't be a reason to fail that. and most of those failures are coming from the new schools.

while new schools are a main problem, expanding class at existing is also just as guilty. i imagine they expand class sizes to make more $$ but also outmuscle the new school students out which work to an extent.
 
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rederza said:
Even if you press all B's shouldn't you at least get a 25%? It seems harder to get a 3% than a 25%...


edit oops meant to quote op
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ya you nail this one. I could not think of a way to get single digit test score. Either 0 or 50%++++...


anyway, now that I am thinking, according to @CogNeuroGuy test score, her GRE score contradicts her saying that its very difficult to get in a PhD program. Maybe it is only for Psychology ?? ;)
 
oldstock said:
ya you nail this one. I could not think of a way to get single digit test score. Either 0 or 50%++++...


anyway, now that I am thinking, according to @CogNeuroGuy test score, her GRE score contradicts her saying that its very difficult to get in a PhD program. Maybe it is only for Psychology ?? ;)
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"His"...not "her". I had a lot of other things to offset my GRE, I had publications in the National Academy of Neuropsychology, several posters at the International Neuropsych. conference and NAN, worked for UTSW in neurology, did forensic work. Like I said, there are always exceptions, and you must find them. I had stellar LOR's, personal letter and good GPA.
 
well from personal experience standardized testing is just a baseline way to compare students when everyone is coming from different backgrounds and different scales/metrics. it certainly doesn't guarantee a certain kind of student but it is generally better to have a higher score than a lower school but isn't always predictive.

i know students who got high SAT scores and now do poorly in their professional lives or unemployed with no direction. i know students with lower SAT scores who are doctors now after working hard in college. test scores can help predict but that's all it does, predict with some certainty but not guarantee. though the ones who do better on standardized tests tend to overall do better through their whole life. whether it's because of the high test score or the institution who attend, idk if there's a study for that out yet.
 
CogNeuroGuy said:
"His"...not "her". I had a lot of other things to offset my GRE, I had publications in the National Academy of Neuropsychology, several posters at the International Neuropsych. conference and NAN, worked for UTSW in neurology, did forensic work. Like I said, there are always exceptions, and you must find them. I had stellar LOR's, personal letter and good GPA.
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I am confused... in other posts you were talking about "your husband", so please pardon me if I mistook you as a woman... my bad...
 
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fewaopi said:
well from personal experience standardized testing is just a baseline way to compare students when everyone is coming from different backgrounds and different scales/metrics. it certainly doesn't guarantee a certain kind of student but it is generally better to have a higher score than a lower school but isn't always predictive.

i know students who got high SAT scores and now do poorly in their professional lives or unemployed with no direction. i know students with lower SAT scores who are doctors now after working hard in college. test scores can help predict but that's all it does, predict with some certainty but not guarantee. though the ones who do better on standardized tests tend to overall do better through their whole life. whether it's because of the high test score or the institution who attend, idk if there's a study for that out yet.
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like you said, those who do better on standardized tests ten to do overall better throughout their whole life. Standardized test is to give us the odds that are applicable for the majority, not for exceptions.

We need to talk about what is/are applicable for the majority not exceptions. Not everyone is going a Steve Jobs or Bill Gates.
 
You got that wrong....standardized exams provide us a projection or prediction of one's ability to do well within their first study of their program. That is it, there are no other psychometric properties within it that will tell you who is smarter, who will likely finish a program, who will be more productive.
 
bmclinn said:
I havent picked a pharmacy school yet, but I know I plan on a dual degree to separate myself from the crowd. I wont be the very top of my class, and thats fine with me.
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In the 10+ years I've been on this forum I've read variations of this line a 1000 times. I'm going to differentiate myself...I'm going to be different. You have to love the blissful optimism of youth. It allows you to ignore the 99.9% and treat the 0.1% as gospel.
 
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A good article, coming from a purely business perspective. My complaint about most economics courses, is the assumption that the "econ" or man is an innate, rational human being. This is easily thwarted when you see thousands of people diagnosed with autism, schizophrenia, and varying forms of affective disorders. But, the main point is, where he mentions that the cost of medical education is the same whether or not you decide to go into psychiatry, family medicine, etc. He then tells us that in particular, family medicine and psychiatry are declining. Ok, I can go with the provided data, but I would say that reason behind these declines don't follow with much sense. Most economists will say that the fall in attractiveness in this field is due to lack of pay in comparison to other specialties. On face value, this makes perfect sense, but it negates to take into account the cyclical nature of medicine, which in itself becomes differentiated from many other services and goods for sale. For the longest time, healthcare has been predominately a service that most working poor can't accord, and even a solid chunk of middle class families. Do to their inabilities to afford a basic healthcare plan, it is of no wonder they aren't investing in their health, seeing a family medical doctor or psychiatrist. So, there is a differing opinion for you to take into consideration.
 
CogNeuroGuy said:
....and I never worked at Burger King, I used that as a dramatization/point.
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I did horribly on SAT's, PCAT, and GRE. I did ok on the MCAT when I took it. I just can't do standardized tests. The NAPLEX was not standardized to me. I received a 98% on the NAPLEX and passed the MPJE.

I know people that scored near perfect on PCAT and were in our top 5% of class, yet couldn't figure out how to talk to a patient about a drug interaction. One works in LTC just verifying orders and another works in a mail order facility verifying typed prescriptions or verifying pills in a bottle.

I don't believe that tests can dictate how you will be in life. Even though I did horribly, I still have an awesome job that I worked very hard to get.
 
JustAnotherRph said:
I did horribly on SAT's, PCAT, and GRE. I did ok on the MCAT when I took it. I just can't do standardized tests. The NAPLEX was not standardized to me. I received a 98% on the NAPLEX and passed the MPJE.

I know people that scored near perfect on PCAT and were in our top 5% of class, yet couldn't figure out how to talk to a patient about a drug interaction. One works in LTC just verifying orders and another works in a mail order facility verifying typed prescriptions or verifying pills in a bottle.

I don't believe that tests can dictate how you will be in life. Even though I did horribly, I still have an awesome job that I worked very hard to get.
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And working retail is better than that?
 
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JustAnotherRph said:
I did horribly on SAT's, PCAT, and GRE. I did ok on the MCAT when I took it. I just can't do standardized tests. The NAPLEX was not standardized to me. I received a 98% on the NAPLEX and passed the MPJE.

I know people that scored near perfect on PCAT and were in our top 5% of class, yet couldn't figure out how to talk to a patient about a drug interaction. One works in LTC just verifying orders and another works in a mail order facility verifying typed prescriptions or verifying pills in a bottle.

I don't believe that tests can dictate how you will be in life. Even though I did horribly, I still have an awesome job that I worked very hard to get.
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Do you mind giving your overall opinion of pursuing pharmacy? Thanks.
 
JustAnotherRph said:
I did horribly on SAT's, PCAT, and GRE. I did ok on the MCAT when I took it. I just can't do standardized tests. The NAPLEX was not standardized to me. I received a 98% on the NAPLEX and passed the MPJE.

I know people that scored near perfect on PCAT and were in our top 5% of class, yet couldn't figure out how to talk to a patient about a drug interaction. One works in LTC just verifying orders and another works in a mail order facility verifying typed prescriptions or verifying pills in a bottle.

I don't believe that tests can dictate how you will be in life. Even though I did horribly, I still have an awesome job that I worked very hard to get.
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HOW do you know you scored 98 percent? I thought naplex score was a scaled score, not a perctentage
 
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JustAnotherRph said:
I did horribly on SAT's, PCAT, and GRE. I did ok on the MCAT when I took it. I just can't do standardized tests. The NAPLEX was not standardized to me. I received a 98% on the NAPLEX and passed the MPJE.

I know people that scored near perfect on PCAT and were in our top 5% of class, yet couldn't figure out how to talk to a patient about a drug interaction. One works in LTC just verifying orders and another works in a mail order facility verifying typed prescriptions or verifying pills in a bottle.

I don't believe that tests can dictate how you will be in life. Even though I did horribly, I still have an awesome job that I worked very hard to get.
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the NAPLEX is not standardized to you bc u did well.... ;)
 
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JustAnotherRph said:
I did horribly on SAT's, PCAT, and GRE. I did ok on the MCAT when I took it. I just can't do standardized tests. The NAPLEX was not standardized to me. I received a 98% on the NAPLEX and passed the MPJE.

I know people that scored near perfect on PCAT and were in our top 5% of class, yet couldn't figure out how to talk to a patient about a drug interaction. One works in LTC just verifying orders and another works in a mail order facility verifying typed prescriptions or verifying pills in a bottle.

I don't believe that tests can dictate how you will be in life. Even though I did horribly, I still have an awesome job that I worked very hard to get.
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I get your point, but I think it is better if you can back your point with some studies or numbers instead of quoting +1 stories (esp your own) none of which can be verified :)
 
VP_Pharm2004 said:
I'm not even sure why people are still entering this profession! Seriously, are there no other options out there or do students with 2.5 GPAs want to waste 200k because someone promised them that they'd make 120k after graduation? :cool:

Can someone please explain to me why students still think they have a future with this career?

The only future they have is to be a retail slave...
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Well, people are still entering the profession. Schools are still opening. Sure, there may be many ill-believed students who are going down the wrong pathway and maybe they don't know it. Maybe they do know it. Maybe a student is gonna be 250k in debt, maybe a student will be 80k in debt.

Either way, there are still students at this time who have a dedication or fascination with the profession and genuinely look forward to it; even if the outcome is retail pharmacy. Hell, I work in a retail pharmacy as a tech and am going to pharmacy school. I love the subject material and I also enjoy working in a retail pharmacy. I like that type of environment. Drugs fascinate me. Kinetics, dynamics, all of it. Patient education. Helping to improve patient health through influencing taking drugs, not taking drugs, or lifestyle changes. There are also multiple possibilities for career opportunities. Retail, hospital, outpatient, academia, industry. It's all still possible. Be a top student and your opportunities increase. Even if I'm not at the top of my class in school, and wind up in a busy retail store.. I'll probably still like it! And make good money! AND my loans will be in the 100k range through scholarships (At ACPHS the first 2 of 4 years are considered undergrad for federal financial aid purposes so I still get Pell grants, etc.. so a 200k bill may actually be closer to 100k all awards accounted).

This, so far, is my personal account. I'm sure there's many people like me who still see a bright future and probably will have a bright future. If you like retail then how am I going to go wrong??? Not everybody is so pessimistic. ****.
 
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To whoever started this forum, thank you for the encouraging advice, you and people who think like you are great role models to the rest of us :annoyed:
 
rederza said:
Even if you press all B's shouldn't you at least get a 25%? It seems harder to get a 3% than a 25%...


edit oops meant to quote op
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its at 25% chance on each question ******. If you have 100 questions the likelihood of you getting 25% correct is .25^100
 
NickW9682 said:
its at 25% chance on each question ******. If you have 100 questions the likelihood of you getting 25% correct is .25^100
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Wow.... If I put all "B" I SHOULD get 25% on the test assuming it's evenly distributed. The probability of getting 100% correct by guessing "B" would be .25^100. I think the OP and his supporters just died from laughter.
 
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technolize said:
Wow.... If I put all "B" I SHOULD get 25% on the test assuming it's evenly distributed. The probability of getting 100% correct by guessing "B" would be .25^100. I think the OP and his supporters just died from laughter.
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you should know that the one you just quoted from is a pharmacy student..... ;)
 
technolize said:
Wow.... If I put all "B" I SHOULD get 25% on the test assuming it's evenly distributed. The probability of getting 100% correct by guessing "B" would be .25^100. I think the OP and his supporters just died from laughter.
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I almost spat out my tea.
 
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NickW9682 said:
its at 25% chance on each question ******. If you have 100 questions the likelihood of you getting 25% correct is .25^100
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here's mine... (quote of Russell Peters)

"somebody is going to get hurt really bad"... :)

 
NickW9682 said:
its at 25% chance on each question ******. If you have 100 questions the likelihood of you getting 25% correct is .25^100
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no wonder youre a pharmacy student
 
rederza said:
no wonder youre a pharmacy student
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OUCH !!!!

dang I was right... "someone is going to get hurt real bad" lol :)

@rederza : plz report him for calling you "******". That is wrong you know...
 
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^^this is one of many illustrating examples explaining why pharmacy schools have turned into a complete joke. (sigh)
 
rederza said:
no wonder youre a pharmacy student
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give him some style points, he went down swinging with sincere confidence while being wrong in almost every way imaginable. probably not a fan of pharmacy calculations and serial dilution problems which doesn't bode well when it comes down to take the naplex
 
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PharmDCandidate2014 said:
give him some style points, he went down swinging with sincere confidence while being wrong in almost every way imaginable. probably not a fan of pharmacy calculations and serial dilution problems which doesn't bode well when it comes down to take the naplex
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but he got in pharmacy school and on his way to a PharmD degree. That is all that counts !!

Seriously, it is only in the pharmacy forum that we get to see a pharmacy student w 13 percentile on the PCAT in math calling a 99 percentile student "******". It is mind-blowing !!!!!


side note : where is(are) the mod(s) who I have not seen to place this @NickW9682 on probation or ban yet for calling other people "******" ?? Yet I am slapped w warnings and "probationary status" for posting about saturation in pharmacy.... For those who are wondering and Pm'ing me, the official reason is that my posts are of some "rudeness" and thus "inappropriate" and their decision is based on a "democratic (??)" process / approach.... Hmmmmmm......
 
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rederza said:
Even it's crap it's better than none. But you're right it might as well be none now, if you can get in with a 16% on a subject.
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The PCAT is easy, and I agree is not a great indicator of a student's potential as a pharmacy student. If you get a 90 percentile, you are or may not have the potential to become a great pharmacist. HOWEVER, if you score a 16 percentile one thing is for sure, you are an idiot. That being said, it doesn't stop schools from admitting these students... so in that sense yes the PCAT kind of is a joke.

But the same can be said for GPA. I sat through an organic chemistry class where out of 25 students there was one A. Then I walk into A&P and the kid sitting next to me got an A in organic at another school yet is nearly failing this easy class. So the individual school and the individual professor is quite significant. If went to a large university and was selective when it came to professors, my GPA would have been significantly higher in undergrad. This is why the PCAT exists; it puts students on a level playing field.
 
^This is really sad. I have a friend working now who mentioned he got in with a 2.9 cgpa and a bad pcat....the argument was that he knew what he was doing for his interview and it showed through......that's not the reason.
 
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