Pharmacy school admissions crisis

[WorthlessOxygen]

$30 k a year is just tuition. You are not going to include living expenses?

No - you should be working enough to cover the majority, if not the entirety, of your living expenses.

7% interest rate turns your $30 k in first year into almost $40 k by end of your 4th year. That is how fast it grows.

It is basically math at this point. $250-300 k is not on the high end when tuition is outrageously high. It is rather common and expected.

Higher end doesn't mean it can't happen. Just that it's, well, on the higher end. Don't use student loans to cover unnecessary expenses, work through school to keep your costs to a minimum, don't go to the most expensive schools.

Like I said in my last comment, even using $250k puts you ahead of the high school graduate making $20/hr. Reminder that this whole conversation was based off the claim that you'd be better off just working for that instead of going to school.

Maybe you got financial aid. Maybe you lived at home. Maybe your parents subsidized your education. Not everyone has that luxury

Again, I've used none of my personal experiences to further my points. But I guess to address these: the only financial aid I got was an undergrad scholarship which brought tuition down to be competitive with a state school, I rented my own apartment (with roommates), and my parents did not contribute to my college or living expenses.

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[libra08]

No - you should be working enough to cover the majority, if not the entirety, of your living expenses.

Out of 100 pharmacy students, how many do you think will be able to work and make enough to cover living expenses (not living with parents) while also enrolling in a doctorate program?

 

[WorthlessOxygen]

Out of 100 pharmacy students, how many do you think will be able to work and make enough to cover living expenses (not living with parents) while also enrolling in a doctorate program?

Most should be able to. Are they willing to? No idea.

20 hours/week should be pretty easy if you work weekends and one evening a week. Pick up extra hours over breaks. With an hourly rate of $15 you should be able to get around $20k a year. For a college lifestyle, would be cutting it close but doable in a lot of areas. And if ends aren't meeting it keeps you from borrowing too much more on top of loans.

 

[RN2RPh]

I don't need to love or enjoy my job. Job is simply a mean by which I achieve things in life that I do enjoy. As stated earlier, my current job is nowhere near as dramatically bad as being consistently stated in this thread.

On a stress scale, it’s 6/10 on a good day and 8/10 on a bad day. If it was anything like at cvs (9/10 on a good day and 11/10 on a usual day), I would look for a new job overnight.

Can it change? Sure. But who is to say this can’t happen outside of retail (hours cut, micromanaging boss, staffing shortage etc.)? Everyone here pretends as if these things are exclusive to certain setting. I value my personal freedom more than anything else.

Being a staff rph isn’t bad of a gig depending on situation. Just don’t be a manager and it’s doable.

I totally agree with you that you have a good job & you love your current schedule. For the same amount of PTO per year, you prefer to take 7 consecutive days off, other people may prefer to take 5/10/14/21 consecutive days off. It is subjective when it comes to schedule preference but a 30 PTO days benefit is objectively better than a 27 PTO days one. So in term of stress level, pay, benefits & even schedule flexibility, there are defintely better non-retail jobs out there.... and you are right, it may take you a decade to get one (not to find one).

I agree, all jobs are subjected to change. For people who have done retail, non-retail & some management here & there, they just have more options when things go south. I am pretty sure that most non-retail RPhs in this country can get a retail job pretty quick if they ever have to. Can retail RPhs do the opposite ?

"Being a staff rph isn’t bad of a gig depending on situation. Just don’t be a manager and it’s doable."...well, "retail staff RPh" is not a bad gig if and only if you plan to retire as one. If ever in the future that you want to apply for a non-retail job, a resume with just "retail staff RPh" experience will probably give you a tough time (unless you have special connection to the hiring manager).

 

[mentos]

I take several weeks off like that during the year. Of course, I don’t do it monthly because I use it to take 10-14 consecutive days off for big vacations, but it’s definitely doable if I request it far in advance. I also didn’t mention perks like paid 6 weeks of paternity leave because it’s conditional (3 months if you are a mom).

Regarding job security, I definitely would have agreed pre-Covid. However, pandemic has created a huge staffing shortage. There is more work due to increased script volume, more vaccines coming out, Covid testing etc. and less staff (more boomers retiring and less pharmacy students enrolled). And, I work at a busy store. Of course, anything is possible when you work for someone else, but my current job is as secure as it can be at the retail level. I don’t loose sleep over the job security anymore.

So paternity leave is your other golden handcuff? How many kids do you plan on having?

 

[Chrish]

So paternity leave is your other golden handcuff? How many kids do you plan on having?

I mentioned it as a “ conditional perk”, not a “golden handcuff”. My friend who works for hospital tells me that they don’t have paid leave.

And it can absolutely be golden handcuff for people who want to have multiple children. Know a guy and one lady who have like 5-6 children each.

 

[MatCauthon]

Student loans don't matter too much anymore...... for the people that don't plan on working retail. PSLF took care of that. If I had known PSLF was going to work I would have taken out way more grad plus loans for house down payment, etc. But if someone is going to do that, they pretty much have to go on a residency or bust path during pharmacy school.

 

[MatCauthon]

Also, vacation perks are one of the greatest perks of a job. I do know of some hospitals that only get 20 hours of PTO to start, which isn't very much (especially considering 8 of those days are holidays)-- and one of the reasons I never took a job offer at these bad PTO hospitals.
I have golden handcuffs because I've already moved up the seniority ladder and it would take me years to get back the perks I've accumulated.
Hospitals would need at least 30 days of PTO for me to consider applying. I have heard of hospitals that get 7-8 weeks off to start-- that would be a place I would apply.

Vacation perks are just one benefit of a job. But if people really love working so much do they want to take a job with only 1-2 weeks of vacation?

 

[mentos]

Also, vacation perks are one of the greatest perks of a job. I do know of some hospitals that only get 20 hours of PTO to start, which isn't very much (especially considering 8 of those days are holidays)-- and one of the reasons I never took a job offer at these bad PTO hospitals.
I have golden handcuffs because I've already moved up the seniority ladder and it would take me years to get back the perks I've accumulated.
Hospitals would need at least 30 days of PTO for me to consider applying. I have heard of hospitals that get 7-8 weeks off to start-- that would be a place I would apply.

Vacation perks are just one benefit of a job. But if people really love working so much do they want to take a job with only 1-2 weeks of vacation?

20 hours of PTO, like 2.5 shifts?

 

[RXDOC1986]

Agreed. If you're counting up the days you don't have to work as a reason to stay at your job, you don't like your job very much.


PS: All these people at hospitals starting at 27 days PTO: Are you including public holidays in that number, or is that 27 days PTO + holidays? I've worked in a lot of hospitals and never had anything that rich. I'm at 25 days PTO now, but I've got a dozen holidays on top of that. I have no additional sick days.

I disagree, name one person who absolutely loves their job? I like my profession, but wouldn't stay at a job where benefits were cut, or PTO was gone!

I have 182 days of "PTO", plus 21 days of sanctioned PTO. That is 203 days combined, and I take every minute of it. That is what keeps me going, I don't live to work, I just work to live! If any of my benefits were cut or reduced, I would go get another job. No love lost!

That's what 7 on/ 7 off gets you! But then, I work on Memorial Day, 4th of July, Labor Day, Thanksgiving, and Christmas. They all fall on my week on.

 

[WorthlessOxygen]

I have 182 days of "PTO", plus 21 days of sanctioned PTO.

This is the strangest way I've seen someone report their PTO

 

[gwarm01]

If you mean prime years for playing sports or dating, well I guess that's a different discussion.

Hell, I was already married when I started pharmacy school. I spent a lot of time studying, but I still had people over for parties and enjoyed my life. It was more stressful than undergrad, but it wasn't like I threw my 20's away. It's not like I was going to be doing anything better anyway.

 

[mentos]

This is the strangest way I've seen someone report their PTO

Why? 7on7off only works half the year.

 

[mentos]

I disagree, name one person who absolutely loves their job? I like my profession, but wouldn't stay at a job where benefits were cut, or PTO was gone!

I have 182 days of "PTO", plus 21 days of sanctioned PTO. That is 203 days combined, and I take every minute of it. That is what keeps me going, I don't live to work, I just work to live! If any of my benefits were cut or reduced, I would go get another job. No love lost!

That's what 7 on/ 7 off gets you! But then, I work on Memorial Day, 4th of July, Labor Day, Thanksgiving, and Christmas. They all fall on my week on.

I thought you would have more PTO with all your experience. Is it capped at 21 days?

 

[WorthlessOxygen]

Why? 7on7off only works half the year.

It's not paid time off though, it's just time you aren't working. You still work your hours on the 7 on.

 

[RXDOC1986]

It's not paid time off though, it's just time you aren't working. You still work your hours on the 7 on.

I know, hence the " "! Just injecting a little humor (very little) into the discussion, not bragging.

 

[RXDOC1986]

I thought you would have more PTO with all your experience. Is it capped at 21 days?

PTO is calculated with the number of years you work at any single hospital, not your number of years of pharmacy experience. I have only been here 2 years. I jump around a lot, this is my 8th full time job, this is how I don't get burned out. Looking at jumping again soon!

 

[mentos]

It's not paid time off though, it's just time you aren't working. You still work your hours on the 7 on.

Oh, I thought we were just talking about days off away from work. It's nice being able to fly somewhere on the week off without using PTO.

 

[RXDOC1986]

Everyone here, is making a similar argument, but going around the main topic.

True, you are better off with a Pharmacy degree, than a minimum wage laborer, in the very long run.
-but, back in 1987, I was making $32/hr, that was almost 10X the min.wage that was $3.25/hr. If you extrapolate to now, we should be making $150/hr which is 10X $15/hr.

True, cost of a pharmacy education is astronomical, doesn't matter how you slice it.
-but if good jobs are plentiful, that's a huge butt, you should be able to pay off loans, and have a fulfilling employment, make good money for 30-40 years.

PTO, sick leave, or going AWOL, is just gravy, or pudding on top!

 

[RXDOC1986]

Oh, I thought we were just talking about days off away from work. It's nice being able to fly somewhere on the week off without using PTO.

In theory, I can take 1 week of PTO, and then have 21 days off. Not too many jobs can do that.
But you can call it whatever you want, it's still 21 days off.

 

[RXDOC1986]

Hell, I was already married when I started pharmacy school. I spent a lot of time studying, but I still had people over for parties and enjoyed my life. It was more stressful than undergrad, but it wasn't like I threw my 20's away. It's not like I was going to be doing anything better anyway.

I was 21, when I got into pharmacy school, managed to play sports, go out and party, date, and even get married, all in my 20's. No prime years were wasted. I didn't study much, my grades suffered, but I pulled through, got my Pharm.D. and license, and nowhere on those documents, lists my GPA. I knew my stuff, and it all worked out.

 

[mentos]

In theory, I can take 1 week of PTO, and then have 21 days off. Not too many jobs can do that.
But you can call it whatever you want, it's still 21 days off.

That's one of the biggest appeals of 7on7off. You can easily plan international trips. When I worked at CVS, my coworkers always had to fight to get just 2 weeks off in a row to travel internationally.

 

[MatCauthon]

In theory, I can take 1 week of PTO, and then have 21 days off. Not too many jobs can do that.
But you can call it whatever you want, it's still 21 days off.

You work night shift right? didn't you say your health has declined from this? The people that have it the best are the ones that work 7 on 7 off day shift. But honestly I think I prefer working a schedule of four 10 hour shifts.

taking a flight on a 7 day on 7 day off schedule is a great thought until all the vacation costs stack up. I guess some people have places to crash all over the country and lots of frequent flier miles. maybe a stewardess in the family would be nice too

 

[RXDOC1986]

You work night shift right? didn't you say your health has declined from this? The people that have it the best are the ones that work 7 on 7 off day shift. But honestly I think I prefer working a schedule of four 10 hour shifts.

taking a flight on a 7 day on 7 day off schedule is a great thought until all the vacation costs stack up. I guess some people have places to crash all over the country and lots of frequent flier miles. maybe a stewardess in the family would be nice too

You are correct!
I have been chasing 7on/7off since 2001, mostly days and evenings. Night shift is definitely not good for your health, but lately that's all that offered, here down south. Day 7on /7 off is very scarce. And trust me, I have looked.
Money for trips and flights, are definitely not a problem.
I am contemplating a day job, Director of Pharmacy, 8:30 to 5:00, Mon-Fri. No nights, weekends, or holidays!!! But I have to give up 7 / 7, and also go over to the dark side. I know I can pull it off, but do I want to?

 

[Dred Pirate]

A lot of hospitals start their employees in that range too.

we start at 25- I know get 40.
Competitor across town starts at 35 and goes to 40 in 3 years.

note - these are PTO - holidays, sick, and vacation all in one bank

 

[Dred Pirate]

You work night shift right? didn't you say your health has declined from this? The people that have it the best are the ones that work 7 on 7 off day shift. But honestly I think I prefer working a schedule of four 10 hour shifts.

taking a flight on a 7 day on 7 day off schedule is a great thought until all the vacation costs stack up. I guess some people have places to crash all over the country and lots of frequent flier miles. maybe a stewardess in the family would be nice too

as someone who worked nights- I agree completely - it does affect your health in a negative way. The ones I see handle the health affects successfully are super dedicated and often do not have children, or have a spouse that doesn't work

Also as I got into my 40's it takes longer and longer to bounce back to a normal schedule physically. Getting off nights was the best thing for my health. I lost 40 lbs and LDL cholesterol dropped 35 points in my first year back on days,

 

[PharmDminus]

as someone who worked nights- I agree completely - it does affect your health in a negative way. The ones I see handle the health affects successfully are super dedicated and often do not have children, or have a spouse that doesn't work

Also as I got into my 40's it takes longer and longer to bounce back to a normal schedule physically. Getting off nights was the best thing for my health. I lost 40 lbs and LDL cholesterol dropped 35 points in my first year back on days,

agreed. did nights for 15 years, went to days a year ago and it has been life-changing. Dont feel tired all the time like i used. Actually have energy.

 

[lord999]

I disagree, name one person who absolutely loves their job? I like my profession, but wouldn't stay at a job where benefits were cut, or PTO was gone!

I have 182 days of "PTO", plus 21 days of sanctioned PTO. That is 203 days combined, and I take every minute of it. That is what keeps me going, I don't live to work, I just work to live! If any of my benefits were cut or reduced, I would go get another job. No love lost!

That's what 7 on/ 7 off gets you! But then, I work on Memorial Day, 4th of July, Labor Day, Thanksgiving, and Christmas. They all fall on my week on.

I actually do (I complain about it and the stupidity of the Beltway, but I do enjoy it), and there are several who are. For government and academia, it's not just about money, it's about power, it's about control, it's about the game. When you have the philosophy that the work IS the reward, then a career can play out quite differently. 2020 was a year where we did lose all benefits, and honestly, it was my favorite working year ever due to how wild it was and how you figured out who really knew what they were doing (and for a much darker reason that I will say privately about how HR worked at the time).

But for classic pharmacists, I know actual pharmacists in the Children's Hospital who are operations who will die at their jobs (and my pediatrics preceptor there did die from a stroke while on duty at 76 with the same high regard for her job with over 50 years of continuous service). Most of the independents I know are more than wealthy enough to not need to work anymore but still are in it because work is what they are.

And many can say that under conditions like pay cuts and low pay. They honestly could cut my salary in half and it really wouldn't matter at this point (and I have been in the administrative inquiry system often enough for me to know what it would be like). Some are just built different if the work matches the personality. Its not that they don't like their downtime, but retirement is out of the question for them, and I hope that works out for me the same way.

Everyone here, is making a similar argument, but going around the main topic.

True, you are better off with a Pharmacy degree, than a minimum wage laborer, in the very long run.
-but, back in 1987, I was making $32/hr, that was almost 10X the min.wage that was $3.25/hr. If you extrapolate to now, we should be making $150/hr which is 10X $15/hr.

True, cost of a pharmacy education is astronomical, doesn't matter how you slice it.
-but if good jobs are plentiful, that's a huge butt, you should be able to pay off loans, and have a fulfilling employment, make good money for 30-40 years.

PTO, sick leave, or going AWOL, is just gravy, or pudding on top!

The question in your era (as was for my parents') was whether it was "better" to be a tech than a pharmacist, because they made roughly 70-80% of our salaries. It wasn't clear until much later in your career that you would have been a clear winner. On the other hand, you probably forgot just how hard it was to remain employed in that time period, as you survived at least two really bad periods (the period you graduated, and 1996-1999) prior to this one, so there is survivors bias.

If you can hang on for 25 years, it pays off after that. But there is not a high percentage of us who do make it that long. But unlike nursing, the physical involvement for labor in pharmacy is such that you can realistically have a 30-40 year career without issues. But most are you are going to FIRE yourselves the moment the math works out. That works too, and I hope my generation can retire at 55-60 without worry (I have government benefits, so I definitely will even without investments).

 

[RXDOC1986]

as someone who worked nights- I agree completely - it does affect your health in a negative way. The ones I see handle the health affects successfully are super dedicated and often do not have children, or have a spouse that doesn't work

Also as I got into my 40's it takes longer and longer to bounce back to a normal schedule physically. Getting off nights was the best thing for my health. I lost 40 lbs and LDL cholesterol dropped 35 points in my first year back on days,

Well, that wouldn't be me! For me, the family and health come first. I am not super dedicated, just work for a paycheck.

I actually do (I complain about it and the stupidity of the Beltway, but I do enjoy it), and there are several who are. For government and academia, it's not just about money, it's about power, it's about control, it's about the game. When you have the philosophy that the work IS the reward, then a career can play out quite differently. 2020 was a year where we did lose all benefits, and honestly, it was my favorite working year ever due to how wild it was and how you figured out who really knew what they were doing (and for a much darker reason that I will say privately about how HR worked at the time).

But for classic pharmacists, I know actual pharmacists in the Children's Hospital who are operations who will die at their jobs (and my pediatrics preceptor there did die from a stroke while on duty at 76 with the same high regard for her job with over 50 years of continuous service). Most of the independents I know are more than wealthy enough to not need to work anymore but still are in it because work is what they are.

And many can say that under conditions like pay cuts and low pay. They honestly could cut my salary in half and it really wouldn't matter at this point (and I have been in the administrative inquiry system often enough for me to know what it would be like). Some are just built different if the work matches the personality. Its not that they don't like their downtime, but retirement is out of the question for them, and I hope that works out for me the same way.


The question in your era (as was for my parents') was whether it was "better" to be a tech than a pharmacist, because they made roughly 70-80% of our salaries. It wasn't clear until much later in your career that you would have been a clear winner. On the other hand, you probably forgot just how hard it was to remain employed in that time period, as you survived at least two really bad periods (the period you graduated, and 1996-1999) prior to this one, so there is survivors bias.

If you can hang on for 25 years, it pays off after that. But there is not a high percentage of us who do make it that long. But unlike nursing, the physical involvement for labor in pharmacy is such that you can realistically have a 30-40 year career without issues. But most are you are going to FIRE yourselves the moment the math works out. That works too, and I hope my generation can retire at 55-60 without worry (I have government benefits, so I definitely will even without investments).

LOVE, is such an overused sentiment. I like my profession, that's the best I can do. The L word has not been said, in this relationship.

I worked at a large Pediatric Hospital for over 10 years, I was pediatric intensive care pharmacist. That was the most stressful AND at the same time, most rewarding job I have ever had. We, ICU pharmacist, attended/participated in every Code Blue's. Talk about an adrenalin rush. You would have no idea what you were walking in to! Just can't use the L word.

At this point, after 38 years of making good money, saving and spending, I can retire today. But, again, I LIKE what I do. Also retiring at 63, I would be leaving over $800 K on the table. You are so right about hanging on, it's a great motivator.

 

[nickw2401]

I worked days at the hospital...hated it. two days off is nothing. I work nights...go the the gym in the morning after work. It works well.

 

[libra08]

Well, that wouldn't be me! For me, the family and health come first. I am not super dedicated, just work for a paycheck.

LOVE, is such an overused sentiment. I like my profession, that's the best I can do. The L word has not been said, in this relationship.

I worked at a large Pediatric Hospital for over 10 years, I was pediatric intensive care pharmacist. That was the most stressful AND at the same time, most rewarding job I have ever had. We, ICU pharmacist, attended/participated in every Code Blue's. Talk about an adrenalin rush. You would have no idea what you were walking in to! Just can't use the L word.

At this point, after 38 years of making good money, saving and spending, I can retire today. But, again, I LIKE what I do. Also retiring at 63, I would be leaving over $800 K on the table. You are so right about hanging on, it's a great motivator.

If you know working nights for 30 years would reduce your lifespan by 5 years…would you still do it?

 

[mentos]

If you know working nights for 30 years would reduce your lifespan by 5 years…would you still do it?

Is that the average lifespan reduction?

 

[RN2RPh]

If you know working nights for 30 years would reduce your lifespan by 5 years…would you still do it?

He would live to 100...he should be fine with 95 now lol. Anyway, unless you are a monk who meditate all day and only eat a healthy plant-based diet, almost everyone knowningly engage in some kind of activities that will reduce our lifespan (such as: drinking alcohol, driving above speed limits or simply consuming a lot of red meats & seafood lol).

 

[Dred Pirate]

Well, that wouldn't be me! For me, the family and health come first. I am not super dedicated, just work for a paycheck.

LOVE, is such an overused sentiment. I like my profession, that's the best I can do. The L word has not been said, in this relationship.

I worked at a large Pediatric Hospital for over 10 years, I was pediatric intensive care pharmacist. That was the most stressful AND at the same time, most rewarding job I have ever had. We, ICU pharmacist, attended/participated in every Code Blue's. Talk about an adrenalin rush. You would have no idea what you were walking in to! Just can't use the L word.

At this point, after 38 years of making good money, saving and spending, I can retire today. But, again, I LIKE what I do. Also retiring at 63, I would be leaving over $800 K on the table. You are so right about hanging on, it's a great motivator.

When I said dedicated- I really mean dedicated to their health - not their job, not that I was very clearn

 

[PharmtoCS]

If you know working nights for 30 years would reduce your lifespan by 5 years…would you still do it?

Not just the lifespan reduction but also reduction of quality of life associated with poorer health.

When I worked overnights I felt like a zombie even on my stretch of days off.

 

[RXDOC1986]

If you know working nights for 30 years would reduce your lifespan by 5 years…would you still do it?

I haven't worked nights for 30 years, maybe combined, 5-6 yrs. Then, there is longevity, and quality of life. I know I have about 5-6 years of full time left in me, and I know I probably will not be able to do that on nights. Meaning, I would rather go management, which I was able to avoid for 25 years, than try to stick it out on nights.

Same question, if you knew: drinking, smoking, red meat, sweets, carbs, radiation from cell phones, and computer monitors, skydiving, motorcycles would reduce your lifespan by 5 years, would you still do, one or all of the above?

You only live once, you work to live, you don't live to work. No one is guaranteed a certain number of years. Hope fully, I have a few more good years left, if not, I have had a full life, haven't missed out on much.

 

[PharFromNormal]

Out of 100 pharmacy students, how many do you think will be able to work and make enough to cover living expenses (not living with parents) while also enrolling in a doctorate program?

Will be able to work? The majority if not all should be able to work… what’s course load 17-19 credit hours a week? 2 hours of heads down studying M-F still puts you only at 30 hours and you also have all weekends to study and or work. Even if it doesn’t cover alllll of expenses it can certainly significantly cut the debt load.

Maybe that’s the problem with the students now… they don’t want to work. If you want to.. you can make it happen.

I don’t understand how I can know single mothers who raise multiple young kids, that have 2 jobs working 50-60 hours a week and they can do it… but someone in pharmacy school… they for some reason can’t.

It’s not a function of capability.

 

[libra08]

Same question, if you knew: drinking, smoking, red meat, sweets, carbs, radiation from cell phones, and computer monitors, skydiving, motorcycles would reduce your lifespan by 5 years, would you still do, one or all of the above?

At least you get some joy from doing those things. What joy do you get from working nights? If you can choose between day or night shift, you wouldn’t choose day? It is not only unhealthy but you are going to miss a big chunk of the good life.

 

[libra08]

Will be able to work? The majority if not all should be able to work… what’s course load 17-19 credit hours a week? 2 hours of heads down studying M-F still puts you only at 30 hours and you also have all weekends to study and or work. Even if it doesn’t cover alllll of expenses it can certainly significantly cut the debt load.

Maybe that’s the problem with the students now… they don’t want to work. If you want to.. you can make it happen.

I don’t understand how I can know single mothers who raise multiple young kids, that have 2 jobs working 50-60 hours a week and they can do it… but someone in pharmacy school… they for some reason can’t.

It’s not a function of capability.

In principle yes but in reality, students rarely make enough to support living expenses without the support of their parents.

 

[Dred Pirate]

In principle yes but in reality, students rarely make enough to support living expenses without the support of their parents.

I worked nearly full time during school, and like 50+ hours a week during summer. I never felt it affected my studying (graduated top 5% of class) or my social life. Any student should be able to, the problem is (and I see this as someone who has hired interns) is the quality of students is going down, so more can't handle the workload, and too many (and I am sure many in my class fell into this category as well) are just too lazy/entitled to feel the need to work.

 

[pharm B]

I actually do (I complain about it and the stupidity of the Beltway, but I do enjoy it), and there are several who are. For government and academia, it's not just about money, it's about power, it's about control, it's about the game. When you have the philosophy that the work IS the reward, then a career can play out quite differently. 2020 was a year where we did lose all benefits, and honestly, it was my favorite working year ever due to how wild it was and how you figured out who really knew what they were doing (and for a much darker reason that I will say privately about how HR worked at the time).

But for classic pharmacists, I know actual pharmacists in the Children's Hospital who are operations who will die at their jobs (and my pediatrics preceptor there did die from a stroke while on duty at 76 with the same high regard for her job with over 50 years of continuous service). Most of the independents I know are more than wealthy enough to not need to work anymore but still are in it because work is what they are.

And many can say that under conditions like pay cuts and low pay. They honestly could cut my salary in half and it really wouldn't matter at this point (and I have been in the administrative inquiry system often enough for me to know what it would be like). Some are just built different if the work matches the personality. Its not that they don't like their downtime, but retirement is out of the question for them, and I hope that works out for me the same way.


The question in your era (as was for my parents') was whether it was "better" to be a tech than a pharmacist, because they made roughly 70-80% of our salaries. It wasn't clear until much later in your career that you would have been a clear winner. On the other hand, you probably forgot just how hard it was to remain employed in that time period, as you survived at least two really bad periods (the period you graduated, and 1996-1999) prior to this one, so there is survivors bias.

If you can hang on for 25 years, it pays off after that. But there is not a high percentage of us who do make it that long. But unlike nursing, the physical involvement for labor in pharmacy is such that you can realistically have a 30-40 year career without issues. But most are you are going to FIRE yourselves the moment the math works out. That works too, and I hope my generation can retire at 55-60 without worry (I have government benefits, so I definitely will even without investments).

You fascinate me. It takes a clever person to navigate the waters you have. I tried to just make retail work and FIRE out, but that just became unsustainable. Even precepting students became unmanageable. I felt so bad during the peak of COVID having a student. All the poor guy did was immunize.

I actively discourage students from pursuing pharmacy as of right now. The bad jobs far outnumber the good. Maybe a tide will turn, but I wouldn’t want my kid stuck in this “profession” if I could help it.

 

[BC_89]

I felt so bad during the peak of COVID having a student. All the poor guy did was immunize.

Don't worry - I didn't mind

We'll always have memories of the lady passing out due to low blood sugar (leading to us calling paramedics), or the guy causing a scene due to thinking his walk-in supersedes everyone else who showed up, or the lady beating down the back door entry prior to opening for the day simply because she forgot the store hours had changed.

Good times

 

[PharFromNormal]

In principle yes but in reality, students rarely make enough to support living expenses without the support of their parents.

Define what is or isn’t living expenses in the context of the costs of college. Tuition is not a living expense… but room and board is and I bet you would include other things in living expenses too. Students take loans to cover room and board and other living expenses.

Working to cover room, board and more (living expenses) could easily reduce loan amounts if more students did it… but they don’t. If they are getting parent allowance for living expenses… then the cost of tuition should also be chipped away at and loan amounts reduced.

Students should be pursuing scholarships/grants etc. However there’s a growing sense of entitlement and laziness to not figure out ways to reduce loan magnitude… just a victim mentality of it’s so expensive and there’s nothing I can do, I won’t make enough now to pay for it all… so I won’t work at all or won’t look for other ways to minimize. Its bad and I’m helpless in making it any better.

 

[PharFromNormal]

$250-300 k is not on the high end. I know students who graduated with > $400 k nowadays. You won’t be able to pay it off in 5-10 years even if you eat just noodles all day. If interest rate is 7% and you owe $300 k = $21 k in interest, not including principle. Your only option is to pay it off over the next 20-25 years unless you qualify for PSLF. Whatever is left will then be “forgiven” but you need to pay tax on the forgiven amount.

This is tuition at my Alma mater. Living cost is not included.

View attachment 379221

You will be better off working after high school. You don’t have to spend 6-8 years in school for a doctorate degree. No crazy student loans debt. Plenty of opportunities for a high school graduate who is ambitious. If your spouse also makes a similar salary, you guys can make a combined $100 k with some overtime.

And need based scholarships (up to 22k per year) and merit based scholarships (up to 15k recruiting, 5k after) are also awarded.

From my research it shows there’s a very high rate of grant/scholarship awards.

Working in pharmacy reimbursement… I express a lot of skepticism at list prices. Schools will advertise a high price and then be willing to give away quite a bit to make it appear they are giving you a deal and that you’re special and you should choose them. Net costs (like in pharmacy) can be very distorted from list costs.

 

[PharFromNormal]

In the current climate if you are truly desiring to be a pharmacist and don’t want to be straddled with debt… take your pre-reqs at a community college while working as much as you can. If you can live at home great, if not find roommates you can live cheap and have fun. Undergrad pre-reqts at a community college should not be a huge time burden nor cost burden via tuition. You should be able to work your ass off covering your expenses (provided you are living frugally), and most if not all of your tuition. Hell you might even be able to bank some.

Research schools. Don’t go to the schools that are 65k and not offering you money. Acceptance rates are much much higher so you should be able to test many options in terms of cost.

Since you are applying to a professional degree you should be able to claim independence on your fafsa putting you in a good position for a need based scholarship at some institutions.

You don’t have to go to the 65k pharmacy school. It could be very plausible to go to pharmacy school on the other side of the country and save 30k and pay for multiple round trip flights and still be ahead. Hell going to somewhere that’s not San Diego likely also comes with much lower living expenses. Nothings stopping you from coming back to California to get those potential higher wages after you graduate if you really want…

If you want to make excuses to find how people could rack up 300k+ in loans you can easily do that. That doesn’t mean they needed to. I have yet to encounter someone with that level of loans that could have and should have made a much smarter decision and/or worked or worked more in school. Just because you can find people in a terrible spot doesn’t mean they needed to be. We will never cure stupidity or laziness.

 

[libra08]

Define what is or isn’t living expenses in the context of the costs of college. Tuition is not a living expense… but room and board is and I bet you would include other things in living expenses too. Students take loans to cover room and board and other living expenses.

Working to cover room, board and more (living expenses) could easily reduce loan amounts if more students did it… but they don’t. If they are getting parent allowance for living expenses… then the cost of tuition should also be chipped away at and loan amounts reduced.

Students should be pursuing scholarships/grants etc. However there’s a growing sense of entitlement and laziness to not figure out ways to reduce loan magnitude… just a victim mentality of it’s so expensive and there’s nothing I can do, I won’t make enough now to pay for it all… so I won’t work at all or won’t look for other ways to minimize. Its bad and I’m helpless in making it any better.

Get off your high horse. I have worked 20+ hours a week. Some of the smartest and hardest working people I have met are my pharmacy friends and none of them worked as much as I did. My friend went to Harvard for undergrad and he only worked during the summer. It is not because he can’t or entitle but because pharmacy school workload is already a lot and he preferred to spend his free time doing other things besides working at CVS or in some hospital basement. What is wrong with that? Medical and dental students are not expected to work and earn money outside of their program but pharmacy students are somehow “lazy” if they dont work 20 hours a week? Give me a break.

It is a good idea to work. I was able to buy rental properties because I worked a lot and didn’t graduate with massive student loans like my classmates. Are they lazy because they didn’t work as much as I did? Of course not. It is not for everyone but students who failed out of pharmacy school or paid a personal cost like a failed relationship because of work are not going to come to this forum and then brag about it and belittle others.

 

[pharm B]

Yeah, I remember my ex-Father in Law telling me he was disappointed I wasn’t delivering pizzas at night after going to class during the day. I get the hustle mentality but give it a rest. 😂

 

[PharFromNormal]

Get off your high horse. I have worked 20+ hours a week. Some of the smartest and hardest working people I have met are my pharmacy friends and none of them worked as much as I did. My friend went to Harvard for undergrad and he only worked during the summer. It is not because he can’t or entitle but because pharmacy school workload is already a lot and he preferred to spend his free time doing other things besides working at CVS or in some hospital basement. What is wrong with that? Medical and dental students are not expected to work and earn money outside of their program but pharmacy students are somehow “lazy” if they dont work 20 hours a week? Give me a break.

It is a good idea to work. I was able to buy rental properties because I worked a lot and didn’t graduate with massive student loans like my classmates. Are they lazy because they didn’t work as much as I did? Of course not. It is not for everyone but students who failed out of pharmacy school or paid a personal cost like a failed relationship because of work are not going to come to this forum and then brag about it and belittle others.

No it is not required to work. You’re right. But not working and not having more money to put down up front for something that’s expensive doesn’t mean future employers should feel the need to compensate for one’s earlier life decisions regarding financing. People making decisions to not work and instead take out student loans is fine with me… they should be held responsible for them… but we shouldn’t make declarations that 300k student loans needs to be a norm, is the norm or is unavoidable.

Someone is perfectly entitled to graduate with 300k in loans… and I’m perfectly entitled to call them an idiot that brought that on themselves and they get 0 pity from me.

You are considered smart, mature and professional enough to be in a professional doctorate program… taking 65-70k worth of loans per year while in your professional pharmacy years… you shouldn’t get the same “oh they are young kids that can’t or don’t comprehend what they are signing up for with student loans”

 

[mentos]

I felt so bad during the peak of COVID having a student. All the poor guy did was immunize.

Pretty sure some preceptors still abuse students like this. For my retail rotation, I was stuck filling and doing register the whole time. If immunizations were allowed back then, they would have stuck me with those too.

 

[GrandTheftAutumn]

I bet you would include other things in living expenses too.

Beer