Pharmacists can't write excuse notes???

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Sparda29

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Had a patient come in a few weeks ago. Looked like he had a bad stomach bug. Told him to just take pepto bismol as needed and stay hydrated with Pedialyte and rest a few days and go to the physician if not better by then. He asked me if I could provide an excuse note since he had traffic court.

So I went on the computer, pulled up the letterhead template and typed up a short note with the information and recommendation to rest for a few days as well as OTC and signed it with: Dr. Sparda29, PharmD.

Guy came back a few days later and said the court didn't accept notes from pharmacists and wanted a note from a physician. WTF?

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Once we get provider status you can write it lol
 
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Had a patient come in a few weeks ago. Looked like he had a bad stomach bug. Told him to just take pepto bismol as needed and stay hydrated with Pedialyte and rest a few days and go to the physician if not better by then. He asked me if I could provide an excuse note since he had traffic court.

So I went on the computer, pulled up the letterhead template and typed up a short note with the information and recommendation to rest for a few days as well as OTC and signed it with: Dr. Sparda29, PharmD.

Guy came back a few days later and said the court didn't accept notes from pharmacists and wanted a note from a physician. WTF?
In that interaction you drifted into evaluation/diagnosis which is physician training
 
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Why aren't you med students staying in your own forum ffs....

I guess you'd prefer that OP just told the guy sorry tough luck, rather than evaluate and properly recommend an OTC treatment or refer him to a physician if the scenario was more extreme? We are taught patient assessment in school, as well as specifically on what signs/symptoms to look for, duration of such, etc. to know when to refer vs. when to treat OTC with what we have available at the pharmacy. I know you guys don't like to hear that we're trained to do such, but it's true. You would rather us just send all of the patients that can be treated OTC to your office and waste more of your time? Sure would make our lives easier.
 
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He was probably looking for an easy way out and excuse from traffic court and not actually sick enough to need to miss it or see a physician.
 
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He's an adult, he can call the court and explain to them and reschedule his date or down some Pepto and suck it up for a bit like anyone else who has responsibilities and some sense of duty.
 
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Why aren't you med students staying in your own forum ffs....

I guess you'd prefer that OP just told the guy sorry tough luck, rather than evaluate and properly recommend an OTC treatment or refer him to a physician if the scenario was more extreme? We are taught patient assessment in school, as well as specifically on what signs/symptoms to look for, duration of such, etc. to know when to refer vs. when to treat OTC with what we have available at the pharmacy. I know you guys don't like to hear that we're trained to do such, but it's true. You would rather us just send all of the patients that can be treated OTC to your office and waste more of your time? Sure would make our lives easier.
On the chance that's not rhetorical, yes I would prefer patients see a physician for diagnosis
 
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In that interaction you drifted into evaluation/diagnosis which is physician training

Pharmacists are trained to identify minor ailments and evaluate patients for OTC recommendations and are also trained to refer when appropriate. There's nothing he did that was outside of his training or ability.
 
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On the chance that's not rhetorical, yes I would prefer patients see a physician for diagnosis

So everyone with the common cold who walks into a pharmacy asking for a cough medicine should be referred to a physician for a diagnosis? If your answer is no, then why does the "stomach flu" require a physician diagnosis in order to be treated while the common cold does not? It's not like you guys are taking labs/cultures in order to diagnosis the stomach flu nor does it require antibiotics. I'm just not seeing the logic.
 
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So everyone with the common cold who walks into a pharmacy asking for a cough medicine should be referred to a physician for a diagnosis? If your answer is no, then why does the "stomach flu" require a physician diagnosis in order to be treated while the common cold does not? It's not like you guys are taking labs/cultures in order to diagnosis the stomach flu nor does it require antibiotics. I'm just not seeing the logic.
Your scenario describes a situation in which a person simply wants to be sold a product of their choice, it's different than requesting a medical diagnosis.
 
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Your scenario describes a situation in which a person simply wants to be sold a product of their choice, it's different than requesting a medical diagnosis.

I wasn't aware that a note had to contain a diagnosis. In fact I'm pretty sure it's actually illegal for an employer to require/request a diagnosis on the note, not sure about court though.
 
I wasn't aware that a note had to contain a diagnosis. In fact I'm pretty sure it's actually illegal for an employer to require/request a diagnosis on the note, not sure about court though.
I share your opinion that it's dumb (no idea about legality) for an employer to want a diagnosis...so we found something we agree on
 
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Sparda, you should set up a booth outside the traffic court and sell pharmacist excuse notes. No physical exam required. Cash only.


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In that interaction you drifted into evaluation/diagnosis which is physician training

Do they not teach self care guidelines at your school?

EDIT:

I guess I was out of line a few weeks ago when a 19 yo patient came in with severe back pain, fever, N/V, and I told them to go to the ER since they didn't have a PCP.

They were refusing to go to urgent care or any other healthcare setting.

I explained that her kidneys were about to experience critical mass and turn into chernomerulus.

I should've apologized to their mom who came in to thank me a week and a half later when the daughter was discharged.

"I'm sorry ma'am, but a medical student who feels my training threatens their fragile ego said I shouldn't have given important advice that your daughter wouldn't have gotten anywhere else
 
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On the chance that's not rhetorical, yes I would prefer patients see a physician for diagnosis

Eh, I don't doubt that many people overstep their boundaries, but "evaluating" (not diagnosing) a patient for self-care with OTC products is a pretty standard thing for a retail pharmacist to handle. We can only recommend usage in keeping with the official packaging of OTC products though, and with the caveat that you should see your doctor if you don't get better within X days. If someone comes in complaining about having heart burn for a couple of days, you point them towards Prilosec OTC and tell them to see their doctor if it doesn't get better in a week. However, if they come in saying they've had persistent heartburn for several weeks you wouldn't diagnose them with GERD and tell them what to do, you should send them to their doctor. At least this is how I remember being taught, it's been many years and I never worked in a community pharmacy.

edit: oh yeah, with regard to the original post.. I've never heard of a pharmacist writing a sick note for someone, but if we ever gain that power I will be sure to abuse it for my own personal gain.
 
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If he's well enough to walk into a pharmacy and buy OTC drugs for minor ailment, he's well enough to be present at court.
 
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I wasn't aware that a note had to contain a diagnosis. In fact I'm pretty sure it's actually illegal for an employer to require/request a diagnosis on the note, not sure about court though.
The note doesn't have to contain a diagnosis, but must be given by someone capable of providing one in a legal sense. Pharmacists do not meet that legal hurdle.
 
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Are we getting punked or something? It is absolutely inappropriate for a pharmacist to write an excuse note.
 
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I wonder if SB247 has a problem with the RNs in triage drifting into evaluation/diagnosis which is physician training.

The note doesn't have to contain a diagnosis, but must be given by someone capable of providing one in a legal sense. Pharmacists do not meet that legal hurdle.

Are you sure you're not a pharmacist?

You've certainly got the "fabricating a vague legal statute to support an argument" part covered. lol
 
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I wonder if SB247 has a problem with the RNs in triage drifting into evaluation/diagnosis which is physician training.
yes, it would be inappropriate for a triage nurse to tell you to go home without seeing the doc and come back if you aren't better in a few days. Triage doesn't diagnose, they merely prioritize who gets to see the physician fastest
 
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yes, it would be inappropriate for a triage nurse to tell you to go home without seeing the doc and come back if you aren't better in a few days. Triage doesn't diagnose, they merely prioritize who gets to see the physician fastest

I'm assuming that not only did you sleep in during the introduction of the concept of Self Care, but you also skipped class the day they explained what cognitive dissonance is?

Here's some extras if you run out of things to grasp at:

https://www.ruf-briquetter.com/content/images/Straw-Briquetting.jpg
 
I'm assuming that not only did you sleep in during the introduction of the concept of Self Care, but you also skipped class the day they explained what cognitive dissonance is?

Here's some extras if you run out of things to grasp at:

https://www.ruf-briquetter.com/content/images/Straw-Briquetting.jpg
I'm familiar with the concept of self care, the issue is that when a patient is told self-care is sufficient for their situation by someone in the health care universe they tend to believe it. That is an issue if the person claiming the patient doesn't need professional hasn't done a proper history and physical examination and isn't trained in how to stratify the results of that history/physical to decide that self-care is appropriate.

You may think that pharmacists have adequate training in history and physicals and that they are performing them in the community pharmacy setting. You may furthermore believe that a pharmacists training is sufficient enough in the evaluation and diagnosis of disease to make those diagnoses to patients. I don't and we'll just have to agree to disagree. Pharmacists are fabulous at what they should be doing, there is no need to drift outside of that.
 
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I don't know about sb247 but if CA SB 493 is fully implemented, then a pharmacist will be able to perform the task.
 
I'm familiar with the concept of self care, the issue is that when a patient is told self-care is sufficient for their situation by someone in the health care universe they tend to believe it. That is an issue if the person claiming the patient doesn't need professional hasn't done a proper history and physical examination and isn't trained in how to stratify the results of that history/physical to decide that self-care is appropriate.

You may think that pharmacists have adequate training in history and physicals and that they are performing them in the community pharmacy setting. You may furthermore believe that a pharmacists training is sufficient enough in the evaluation and diagnosis of disease to make those diagnoses to patients. I don't and we'll just have to agree to disagree. Pharmacists are fabulous at what they should be doing, there is no need to drift outside of

Are you joking?
You're seriously suggesting the average outpatient interaction requires a thorough H&P?
Give me a break.



When I can go one week without getting the same "best guess" cookie cutter prescriptions on rotation from every urgent care clinic in the city, you'll have a point.

Please, go spend 30 minutes in the waiting area of any community pharmacy and see if you can find a single self care issue and respective recommendation that would've been worth waiting 2 weeks for an appointment and the $XX-XXX copay for the patient to spend 3-10 minutes in a room with their physician.


There are literally not enough physicians in the world, past and present, to handle all of the self care issues that we address.

This doesn't even begin to address the underserved populations we help that don't have insurance and can't afford even the cheapest clinic.

You can agree to disagree, but you're practicing intentional ignorance in the name of shielding your ego. Kudos
 
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Are you joking?
You're seriously suggesting the average outpatient interaction requires a thorough H&P?
Give me a break.



When I can go one week without getting the same "best guess" cookie cutter prescriptions on rotation from every urgent care clinic in the city, you'll have a point.

Please, go spend 30 minutes in the waiting area of any community pharmacy and see if you can find a single self care issue and respective recommendation that would've been worth waiting 2 weeks for an appointment and the $XX-XXX copay for the patient to spend 3-10 minutes in a room with their physician.


There are literally not enough physicians in the world, past and present, to handle all of the self care issues that we address.

This doesn't even begin to address the underserved populations we help that don't have insurance and can't afford even the cheapest clinic.

You can agree to disagree, but you're practicing intentional ignorance in the name of shielding your ego. Kudos
I am seriously suggesting that all patients deserve an H/P by their physician.

We can just leave at "disagree"
 
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Based on
I'm familiar with the concept of self care, the issue is that when a patient is told self-care is sufficient for their situation by someone in the health care universe they tend to believe it. That is an issue if the person claiming the patient doesn't need professional hasn't done a proper history and physical examination and isn't trained in how to stratify the results of that history/physical to decide that self-care is appropriate.

You may think that pharmacists have adequate training in history and physicals and that they are performing them in the community pharmacy setting. You may furthermore believe that a pharmacists training is sufficient enough in the evaluation and diagnosis of disease to make those diagnoses to patients. I don't and we'll just have to agree to disagree. Pharmacists are fabulous at what they should be doing, there is no need to drift outside of that.


Well you convinced me, everyone that comes to me with a recommendation is being told to go straight to their doctor, urgent car, er. Runny nose and fever, go to the ER. Nausea and some diarrhea for 12 hours, go to ER. Rash on toes, go to ER
 
Not to get into it here, but I think there's a difference....and probably a fine line, between self-diagnosing then coming in asking for advice on treatment for a certain symptom/symptoms VS coming in unwell asking "what's wrong with me".

I'm sure more thought was given than was let on, but in the initial example it was mentioned that the person appeared to have a "bad stomach bug" and then recommendations were made from there assuming a specific benign etiology. That may not have been the case but it wasn't presented as he came in asking "hey, what can I take for diarrhea or upset stomach?". I agree it's somewhat semantics and a fine line but where do we draw it? What if he was going into DKA? To be honest, even physicians usually don't offer treatment advice, a note or prescriptions without some sort of evaluation, unless a well known established patient recently seen for the same on-going problem. But for a new issue no, you need to be seen. People forget that they're seeing they physician for their knowledge and experience, even if that means during a quick 5 min office visit with a decent history and physical that could potentially rule out something serious that wouldn't have been caught otherwise.

I'm in a medicine subspecialty and even now something out of my field that I don't feel comfortable assessing I'm deferring to the appropriate physician (Go see your PCP, or neurologist, or oncologist, etc...) as after all this training I'm well aware of what I DON'T know.
 
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Sparda, I admire your kindness, but it has only brought you trouble unfortunately.
 
I'd never think to write an excuse note for a patient or think an interaction over a pharmacy counter is enough to properly evaluate someone.

Pharmacists should be allowed to provide a broader range of clinical services, but in today's day and age and with our professional restraints today is not that day. A pharmacist writing an approved absence note via a pharmacy counter interaction is about as proper as a dentist prescribing simvastatin.
 
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I don't know about sb247 but if CA SB 493 is fully implemented, then a pharmacist will be able to perform the task.

I think that's unfortunate and really inappropriate. Pharmacists are not trained to diagnose and assess. I don't care that there is a new designation for pharmacists in California, it's about as ridiculous as licensing nurses to dispense.
 
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I don't know about sb247 but if CA SB 493 is fully implemented, then a pharmacist will be able to perform the task.
That makes a pharmacist legal to perform more tasks, not able
 
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Are we getting punked or something? It is absolutely inappropriate for a pharmacist to write an excuse note.
Eh. An ice cream man could write an excuse note for severe brain freeze. I don't know who would accept it, but I think it is allowed via the Freedom of the Press.
 
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That makes a pharmacist legal to perform more tasks, not able

I know where you're coming from legitimately, but I also know most residents/physicians are extremely unfamiliar with the extent of our training in general. I've had residents mind blown when I told them it is a doctorate degree, or requires 3-4 years of pharmacology and pharmacotherapy. Literally jaw dropped. (meaning I'm not surprised you feel we aren't trained to do anything)

Not saying we should be able to diagnose, but in the sense of providing recommendations in a retail setting it is completely standard and within our capability (OP's situation).
 
I know where you're coming from legitimately, but I also know most residents/physicians are extremely unfamiliar with the extent of our training in general. I've had residents mind blown when I told them it is a doctorate degree, or requires 3-4 years of pharmacology and pharmacotherapy. Literally jaw dropped.
I get you...I love the pharmacists I work with in hospital. They are awesome at what they do, significantly better at it than me. They don't do patient assessment and diagnosis.
 
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Oh man, I came to check out how many long responses the PAtoPharm guy posted today and got this gem instead. I never go to the med forum but I see there some people there that are truly full of themselves.
 
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:laugh: you're going places.

He's not wrong though. Just because a task may be legal to perform doesn't mean one is able to. If tomorrow the practice act allowed me to diagnose I know I'd need additional training. Do you honestly think if a patient came to you with say, nerve pain in the absence of diabetes do you know what tests to run and how to do the differential? I know I don't. Just because it would be legal for me to magically do that doesn't mean I'm able to.

What about the very hot topic pharmacists discuss regarding physicians and others prescribing out of their scope of practice? An MD/DO can prescribe whatever they want under the sun, but do you think say a radiologist should be prescribing a chemo regimen for a cancer patient or medicine do you think they should be cathing cardiac arrest patients or managing their post-cardiac arrest care? I mean legally they can as a physician, but ethically and ability wise I highly highly doubt they are qualified to do that. One duty pharmacists have is to look out for good faith, if I have reason to believe that there isn't a valid physician-patient relationship or they aren't being monitored in my state I'm legally bound to reject that RX or clarify with the prescriber their assessment and rationale. I know most pharmacists wouldn't do this... but ethically we are supposed to and legally if harm befell the patient we'd be held liable as well for grossly and negligently filling something that we had valid red flags about.

I think PharmD's are far overqualified to dispense. I know we are capable of managing (not diagnosing) chronic conditions like diabetes, HTN, COPD, etc. We have successfully practice in more of a "practitioner" role in certain practice settings like the VA. I did 2 VA rotations and my clinical pharmacist preceptors did physicals (to an extent) and routinely prescribed meds via their protocols and monitored disease states and had very open and professional rounds with physicians and others. I did a rotation at a lower-income charity based health clinic where pharmacists/students and NPs/students saw patients. We had legal protocols allowing us to do so. I'd do the routine BP checks, get vitals, listen to the lungs, get a history and interview patients and then bring that info to the NP. In a sense I was able to diagnose a few simple things like a hypertensive patient in hypertensive crisis (BP beyond 180) and I "prescribed" clinidine to bring it down in the office and checked the patient for target organ damage. In essence I did the work and my preceptor/NP agreed with everything I was thinking and authorized my treatment plan. We should be able to practice similarly everywhere. However, I know due to under-appreciation and a need for self validation we develop these over-inflated egos but that needs to stop too. I'm sure you don't like it when you hear the "I'm the doctor, fill it as I say!" line when you refuse to fill a dangerous or questionable script, I doubt others like a "I'm a DOCTOR PharmD and I'm qualified to do your job too!" when we aren't... Yes we deserve and should demand enhanced practice in line with our competencies and training, but we also need to respect our limits.
 
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He's not wrong though. Just because a task may be legal to perform doesn't mean one is able to. If tomorrow the practice act allowed me to diagnose I know I'd need additional training. Do you honestly think if a patient came to you with say, nerve pain in the absence of diabetes do you know what tests to run and how to do the differential? I know I don't. Just because it would be legal for me to magically do that doesn't mean I'm able to.

What about the very hot topic pharmacists discuss regarding physicians and others prescribing out of their scope of practice? An MD/DO can prescribe whatever they want under the sun, but do you think say a radiologist should be prescribing a chemo regimen for a cancer patient or medicine do you think they should be cathing cardiac arrest patients or managing their post-cardiac arrest care? I mean legally they can as a physician, but ethically and ability wise I highly highly doubt they are qualified to do that. One duty pharmacists have is to look out for good faith, if I have reason to believe that there isn't a valid physician-patient relationship or they aren't being monitored in my state I'm legally bound to reject that RX or clarify with the prescriber their assessment and rationale. I know most pharmacists wouldn't do this... but ethically we are supposed to and legally if harm befell the patient we'd be held liable as well for grossly and negligently filling something that we had valid red flags about.

I think PharmD's are far overqualified to dispense. I know we are capable of managing (not diagnosing) chronic conditions like diabetes, HTN, COPD, etc. We have successfully practice in more of a "practitioner" role in certain practice settings like the VA. I did 2 VA rotations and my clinical pharmacist preceptors did physicals (to an extent) and routinely prescribed meds via their protocols and monitored disease states and had very open and professional rounds with physicians and others. I did a rotation at a lower-income charity based health clinic where pharmacists/students and NPs/students saw patients. We had legal protocols allowing us to do so. I'd do the routine BP checks, get vitals, listen to the lungs, get a history and interview patients and then bring that info to the NP. In a sense I was able to diagnose a few simple things like a hypertensive patient in hypertensive crisis (BP beyond 180) and I "prescribed" clinidine to bring it down in the office and checked the patient for target organ damage. In essence I did the work and my preceptor/NP agreed with everything I was thinking and authorized my treatment plan. We should be able to practice similarly everywhere. However, I know due to under-appreciation and a need for self validation we develop these over-inflated egos but that needs to stop too. I'm sure you don't like it when you hear the "I'm the doctor, fill it as I say!" line when you refuse to fill a dangerous or questionable script, I doubt others like a "I'm a DOCTOR PharmD and I'm qualified to do your job too!" when we aren't... Yes we deserve and should demand enhanced practice in line with our competencies and training, but we also need to respect our limits.

I should have linked my comment to the appropriate post. I wasn't directly targeting that comment, but I agree with your sentiments.
 
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That makes a pharmacist legal to perform more tasks, not able

I think that's unfortunate and really inappropriate. Pharmacists are not trained to diagnose and assess. I don't care that there is a new designation for pharmacists in California, it's about as ridiculous as licensing nurses to dispense.

Perhaps you two should understand what CA SB 493 and CA BOP APP entail before you type.
 
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I get you...I love the pharmacists I work with in hospital. They are awesome at what they do, significantly better at it than me. They don't do patient assessment and diagnosis.

Yes, in your tiny little world you live in...

You may want to check out Washington SB 5557.
 
I've read the text...do you have a specific disagreement you would like to articulate?

Evidently reading and understanding aren't the same for you. No...no need to articulate anything with you.
 
Yes, in your tiny little world you live in...

You may want to check out Washington SB 5557.
as noted above, that would qualify as a situation where legal permission does not actually mean you know how to or should be doing a task
 
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as noted above, that would qualify as a situation where legal permission does not actually mean you know how to or should be doing a task

Keep reading. And identify what it takes to gain the legal permission.

Legal permission is important you know... just because you know how to do it doesn't mean you can do it if you do not have legal permission.

Your premise that APP do not actually know how is faulty.
 
Keep reading. And identify what it takes to gain the legal permission.

Legal permission is important you know... just because you know how to do it doesn't mean you can do it if you do not have legal permission.

Your premise that APP do not actually know how is faulty.
at least we agree that legal permission is irrelevant to what is medically appropriate
 
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at least we agree that legal permission is irrelevant to what is medically appropriate

Nope. Your reading comprehension is poor and you lack health care experience that is clearly evident in your statement. Legal permission is not irrelevant to medically appropriate situations. Often, there are state and federal legal permissions that can prohibit medically appropriate treatment options. I will let you figure that out... in... say next 10 years when you're a practicing physician. Perhaps by then, you'll be a bit more open minded. Now carry on... or go study.
 
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Nope. Your reading comprehension is poor and you lack health care experience that is clearly evident in your statement. Legal permission is not irrelevant to medically appropriate situations. Often, there are state and federal legal permissions that can prohibit medically appropriate treatment options. I will let you figure that out... in... say next 10 years when you're a practicing physician. Perhaps by then, you'll be a bit more open minded. Now carry on... or go study.
I feel like you just said I was wrong and then gave an example of why I was right. In both directions, legal permission does not actually determine what is medically appropriate, only what you can do legally. Things that should be done can be illegal and things that should not be done can be legal. Does that make sense?
 
I have no idea what attracted me to this thread, as I rarely post in this forum.

My view is completely different from what's already on the thread. I would argue that, as pharmacists, you don't want the ability to write work/court/etc excuse notes. Trust me. What will happen is you'll end up with a long line of people all wanting to talk to you about their "problem", and after you have answered whatever the question is, they will ask for an excuse letter. As a physician, I can tell you that these are some of the worst visits ever. Do I just write the letter and be a "patient advocate"? Or do I try to support the "system", and only excuse the patient if I truly feel their problem would make it unsafe / impossible for them to perform said duties.

Plus, if you start doing this, you need to keep records of it all. Just giving the patient the letter won't cut it. What if this person copies the letter and changes the date and uses it multiple times? You'd need to know when you actually wrote it. Do you really want to get into the business of medical records?

Bottom line: This is a terrible idea for you. That said, if you want it all, I bet most physicians would happily abrogate the responsibility of sick/excuse notes to you. Feel free to take the disability evaluations also. Be careful what you wish for.
 
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