No, the thread did not die, but it certainly seems like medical ethics and the rule do no harm has. Having been a practicing surgeon for years, I find it fairly disgusting that you students and doctors have this attitude.
You act as if your training and practice are paramount to the trust your patients have in you. Your patients believe in you - that is why they have the surgery in the first place. Why, when there are so many other sources of this training available, would you destroy our image in the public? It is hard enough to get patients to trust with all the other scandals emerging without adding this nonsense to it.
When I was a student and resident, our practice in this area came from willing patients and paid subjects. We didn't wait until a patient was asleep and do pelvics on them, especially without their informed consent. In fact, where I did my time, we would have been dismissed for that. Naturally, there are procedures we do that require perioperative pelvics. However, the patient's informed consent was obtained prior to the procedures.
Somewhere in this thread, and I'm not going back to find it, someone said 'why don't you use your wives and girlfriends for this?' I would challenge each of you to look your wife or girlfriend in the eye and tell her about your fondness for taking advantage of these anesthetized patients. I wonder what she would say?
In summation, we put people in jail for using date-rape drugs, how can you realistically and honestly separate what you espouse from that? I know it is hard to get your practice in. Been there and done that, as they say. However, that is why we get paid the big dollars - no one said it would easy.
And before you condemn my position, let me give you some more fuel - I have never let an attending touch any of my patients in surgery without his or HER prior informed consent. That is the patient's body, not yours or mine. Would you let it happen to your wife or girlfriend? Be honest and do the right thing - pay for your training or get their consent - and certainly do not come to my hospital for training or residency unless you are willing to adhere to full, informed consent.
