Pediatrics vs Emergency Medicine

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christmasindr

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Hello everyone. I wonder if anyone has ran into this dilemma?

Also, I'm not sure if anyone discussed this, but do people generally recommend EM-> Pediatrics Fellowship vs Pediatrics-> EM fellowship?

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I asked around for this as well and the consensus I've found is that you should probably do EM and then peds. You will be better prepared to handle the EM work (not saying you won't be if you do peds first).


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I asked around for this as well and the consensus I've found is that you should probably do EM and then peds. You will be better prepared to handle the EM work (not saying you won't be if you do peds first).


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I would say I have stronger passion and tolerance working with kids than adults. Do EM residency programs generally do a good job with pediatrics exposure?
 
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I would say I have stronger passion and tolerance working with kids than adults. Do EM residency programs generally do a good job with pediatrics exposure?
I'm just a 4th year so this is only coming from a dozen or so interviews, probably residents/attendings will be better equipped to answer but I'll throw in my limited experience.

Some EM residencies do see a large amount of pediatrics and others not so much. I interviewed at some programs that have you rotate through a pediatrics hospital for a month or two and that's about it (plus a PICU month). Then there are others with a strong relationship with a pediatric hospital where you do more rotations, plus rotate through the peds ED and also work shifts longitudinally throughout your 3-4 years.

I also did an away at a place with a peds ED fellowship and spent a fair amount of time with the fellows. It seemed like half of them were EM trained and half were peds trained. They were all competent. The ED folks seemed more comfortable when things got crazy, but the peds folks were overall more comfortable with the kids. Although I imagine that a few years later they would both be on par with each other. So in the end I'm not sure it makes a tremendous difference. Last thing is that for that fellowship (and possibly others, I'm not 100% sure), the EM trained folks do a 2 year peds fellowship but the peds trained folks do a 3 year peds-em fellowship.
 
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If you got fed up with it would you rather be able to fall back on peds or regular EM?
 
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I ran into this exact dilemma and ended up choosing peds. If you are looking to be an EM doc that is very comfortable with peds, you would probably do the EM->peds EM route, but if you are looking to be a strictly peds EM doc, you should go the peds->peds EM route. There is no doubt that a peds trained doc will feel more comfortable with kids, but it basically cuts off your ability to see most adults.

but the biggest reason for me was what another poster said above. i was happier with my choices in peds now that i have decided i don't like EM at all. there isn't really a plan B with EM except urgent care.
 
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Another question is how much exposure you want to things like trauma, ortho, and obstetrics during your residency. Most EM programs make you rotate through those specialties, in addition to things like general medicine wards and trauma/surgical ICU. If you're someone who really prefers pediatrics, many of those rotations may be downright painful for you.
 
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I ran into this exact dilemma and ended up choosing peds. If you are looking to be an EM doc that is very comfortable with peds, you would probably do the EM->peds EM route, but if you are looking to be a strictly peds EM doc, you should go the peds->peds EM route. There is no doubt that a peds trained doc will feel more comfortable with kids, but it basically cuts off your ability to see most adults.

but the biggest reason for me was what another poster said above. i was happier with my choices in peds now that i have decided i don't like EM at all. there isn't really a plan B with EM except urgent care.

Interesting. What made you decide to not like EM?
 
I'm just a 4th year so this is only coming from a dozen or so interviews, probably residents/attendings will be better equipped to answer but I'll throw in my limited experience.

Some EM residencies do see a large amount of pediatrics and others not so much. I interviewed at some programs that have you rotate through a pediatrics hospital for a month or two and that's about it (plus a PICU month). Then there are others with a strong relationship with a pediatric hospital where you do more rotations, plus rotate through the peds ED and also work shifts longitudinally throughout your 3-4 years.

I also did an away at a place with a peds ED fellowship and spent a fair amount of time with the fellows. It seemed like half of them were EM trained and half were peds trained. They were all competent. The ED folks seemed more comfortable when things got crazy, but the peds folks were overall more comfortable with the kids. Although I imagine that a few years later they would both be on par with each other. So in the end I'm not sure it makes a tremendous difference. Last thing is that for that fellowship (and possibly others, I'm not 100% sure), the EM trained folks do a 2 year peds fellowship but the peds trained folks do a 3 year peds-em fellowship.

Thanks for the input. Any comments on the job prospect of Peds trained EM doctor?
 
Interesting. What made you decide to not like EM?

I think he is implying there is not much to do if you are EM trained and burned out. Which is partly true, you will not have the "back ups" as you do in other specialties. But EM does offer fields outside of urgent care if a fellowship is done, such as toxicology, sports med, wound care, and critical care...
 
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Interesting. What made you decide to not like EM?

the lifestyle, which is ironically what draws people to EM. I am a father and a husband and on my second EM rotation, I had more days off during the week, but because of my kids' school and my wife's work, I saw them less during that month than any other month 4th year, including NICU, PICU, and my sub-I. days off by myself are worthless to me. plus I want to be an expert in something, which you don't get in EM.
 
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I have met quite a number of EM physicians who don't care much about the pediatrics aspect, so it's hard for me to get another perspective. I wonder if anyone in SDN is a pediatrician who pursued a EM fellowship?
 
You'll probably get more responses from either the Peds or EM sub-forums. Generally, EM docs that do a Peds EM fellowship are more marketable because they have both adult and peds training. If you wanted to work at a dedicated Peds ED, then you'll need to be a PEM fellowship grad, regardless of what your initial residency was; but even w/ the PEM fellowship, you can't work in an adult ED. Like with most peds specialties, it pays less than the adult counterpart, but Peds EM pays more than general peds.

What exactly are you looking for, career-wise? As someone else mentioned, all EM residencies have some mix ortho, trauma, ICU, and OB months that could drive you nuts. On the flip side, all peds residencies have tons of outpt clinic and general floor months, which also could drive you nuts.
 
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the lifestyle, which is ironically what draws people to EM. I am a father and a husband and on my second EM rotation, I had more days off during the week, but because of my kids' school and my wife's work, I saw them less during that month than any other month 4th year, including NICU, PICU, and my sub-I. days off by myself are worthless to me. plus I want to be an expert in something, which you don't get in EM.

Classic.

EM docs are MASTERS at resuscitation. We do it better than anybody else, hands down. Trauma, medical (hell, even PSYCHIATRIC resuscitation), you name it, we do it. We are MASTERS of frontline medicine and we are the experts when it comes to sick vs. not sick. If you didn't pick up on this on your EM rotation, it was either a terrible experience, or you clearly do not understand the job of a good ER doc. Either way though, if the specialty didn't fit your lifestyle goals, no big deal. That's the hardest part, the shift switching, and being away from the family.
 
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EM docs are MASTERS at resuscitation

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

If I had a dollar for every time the ED staff sprinted out of the trauma bay as soon as trauma surg got there well... I'd have a lot of dollars.

Don't call yourself a master at trauma resuscitation if you're not going to be the one doing the thoracotomy.
 
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I have met quite a number of EM physicians who don't care much about the pediatrics aspect, so it's hard for me to get another perspective. I wonder if anyone in SDN is a pediatrician who pursued a EM fellowship?
There's a pediatric EM fellowship, but no general EM fellowship AFAIK
 
:laugh::laugh::laugh:

If I had a dollar for every time the ED staff sprinted out of the trauma bay as soon as trauma surg got there well... I'd have a lot of dollars.

Don't call yourself a master at trauma resuscitation if you're not going to be the one doing the thoracotomy.

Sounds like your hospital has a weak EM program.

Nearly all of the strong EM programs (Denver, Cincinnati, Hennepin, Kings, etc... ) manage every trauma resuscitation and perform all procedures in the department or have an agreement to split them 50/50 with surgery.
 
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Nearly all of the strong EM programs (Denver, Cincinnati, Hennepin, Kings, etc... )

Unfortunately the vast majority of EM programs are not Denver, Cinci, etc... But even at the traditionally strong ED programs I've been at, the ED staff has been more than happy to step back when trauma team gets there...

On a side note/also disrailing the thread: Did you spend some time at Bara? I did a trauma month there as an M4, what an insane place.
 
Unfortunately the vast majority of EM programs are not Denver, Cinci, etc... But even at the traditionally strong ED programs I've been at, the ED staff has been more than happy to step back when trauma team gets there...

On a side note/also disrailing the thread: Did you spend some time at Bara? I did a trauma month there as an M4, what an insane place.

I'm spending my last 2 months of med school there.

Fun times :)
 
Pediatrics for EM providers is generally underrepresented in their training. Most of the data I've seen has shown that Pediatric patients account for ~25-30% of all patients seen (talking community ED's here) but pediatric exposure in residency is about 10% of training time. I'll add that it is a near universal complaint from EM residents that they dislike the diminished autonomy they get while on their pediatric rotations (Peds ED shifts, Peds wards, and PICU), which probably through a combination of too much oversight and lack of buy-in from the EM residents further limits the overall educational value of that time at the children's hospital. I certainly saw that in my time as a peds resident and PICU fellow.

That's not to say that a peds residency->peds EM fellowship is super warranted either, as another recent study has shown that practicing, fellowship trained, Peds EM providers rarely use their advanced training in terms of numbers of intubations, chest tubes, trauma management, and so on. Mileage may vary for those Peds EM providers in community hospitals without robust peds subspecialty coverage such as peds surgery and in-house PICU staff. As of now, it's entirely unclear what that should mean for Peds EM fellowships, but there is at least a handful of people out there suggesting that the training for Peds EM should change dramatically. I think that for now, the job market for Peds EM trained people, regardless of which direction you go, is actually probably pretty stable as the aforementioned number of peds ED visits isn't likely to change, and hospitals can advertise that they have pediatric trained EM specialists available, which parents eat up.

If trying to decide between the two, the biggest ? to answer is, do you want to see adults as a major portion of your training? If you're meant to be a pediatrician, then you'll say no, and you'll have your answer.
 
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One of the guys at my ED went the EM ->peds EM fellowship route. He splits his time 50/50 in a community ED and a dedicated peds ED. There's a lot of flexibility in that. Conversely, the peds -> peds EM fellowship, if you want to step back from the ED, you could open a private practice, but the pay drop would be significant. Not so much with just doing straight community EM.

If he's around, I do ask him about certain peds cases, partially because he's plugged into the peds ED downtown and I have a specific question regarding transfers, but bread and butter peds in the ED, which is essentially, mostly primary care peds, I am very comfortable with.

One of my residency classmates did the peds EM fellowship and was able to do it in two years versus the peds -> peds EM fellow that did the standard three years, although I think that pathway is now closed. He did it primarily because he wanted the training, and it allowed him to break into a crowded market - Washington state, that otherwise would have been closed to him if he went for a straight EM job.
 
This must be news to all the trauma surgeons.

Although I disagree that EM are masters at anything, we are very strong generalists, and we have a broad knowledge of many specialties and a fair amount of procedures.

I notice how you parse the statement you quoted - not all rescus is trauma, and I think you'd find many trauma surgeons uncomfortable running a rescus that is not surgical in nature.
 
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I will give you three paths and the pros/cons of each. Keep in mind I know fellow attendings who have gone down each of these paths.

Path 1: EM board certified.

Pros: 3 years of residency, no fellowship. Able to handle adults and pediatrics fine.
Cons: if you are looking for strict academic peds EM or a pediatric clinic, forget about it.

Path 2: EM board certified. Pediatric EM board certified.

Pros: You will be able to handle both adults and pediatrics fine. You will be able to work at any pediatric ER.
Cons: 3 years of residency + 2 years of fellowship = 5 years total. Pediatric EM pays significantly less than adult EM on the order of 100-300k/year depending on where you work.

Path 3: Pediatric board certified. Pediatric EM board certified.

Pros: You will be able to do both pediatric EM and general pediatrics (if you really wanted to).
Cons: 3 years of residency + 3 years of fellowship = 6 years total. Pediatric EM pays significantly less than adult EM and sometimes even less than ER/peds boarded.

My advice: I highly suggest path 2 if you are trying to do peds EM only. You will have 5 years of being around kids in the ED. Keep in mind that greater than 25% of your visits in an ER residency will be pediatrics. That's a lot more training in pediatric EM than 3 years of general pediatric residency. I met senior pediatric residents who have never intubated a child, put a central line in a child, run a code on a child, etc.

I love kids and I see enough of them just working general EM.
 
:laugh::laugh::laugh:

If I had a dollar for every time the ED staff sprinted out of the trauma bay as soon as trauma surg got there well... I'd have a lot of dollars.

Don't call yourself a master at trauma resuscitation if you're not going to be the one doing the thoracotomy.

Doing the thoracotomy is straightforward, but the subsequent management is not. But, the subsequent management is not technically resuscitation, so, the point still stands.
 
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