Pediatric Surgery

[Born2baDoctor]

I would like to see a comparison of Peds Surg as compared to other surgical specialties (general, cardiothoracic, neuro, vascular, plastics) in terms of lifestyle, call, salary, and job availability. Any and all responses would be greatly appreciated.

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[drpectin]

I would like to see a comparison of Peds Surg as compared to other surgical specialties (general, cardiothoracic, neuro, vascular, plastics) in terms of lifestyle, call, salary, and job availability. Any and all responses would be greatly appreciated.

Pediatric surgeons average 73 hours per week, compared to General 60, vascular 62, thoracic 67, ent 52, ortho 61, neurosurg 62, colorect 54, plastic 56.

Peds surg typically has a difficult life, with increased call, average salary, and plenty of jobs available. The only caveat being that this all depends on the practice you join.
Which really can change everything.
One Ped surg that I know of in private practice works about 80 hours minimum a week probably makes around $800k a year takes call almost everyday and covers almost what appears to be all of south jersey (again thats mainly heresay - but from what I observed it seemed congruous).

I really suggest getting Iserson's Getting into a Residency.

 

[fishmonger69]

would second the above. throw in difficulty of getting a spot, time spent doing research, etc. and the difficulty in dealing with both pediatric patients and parents, it's certainly not the field for everyone. i myself look foward to becoming a pedi surgeon even with the crappy lifestyle. hope the significant other understands :x

 

[njbmd]

Pediatric surgeons average 73 hours per week, compared to General 60, vascular 62, thoracic 67, ent 52, ortho 61, neurosurg 62, colorect 54, plastic 56.

Peds surg typically has a difficult life, with increased call, average salary, and plenty of jobs available. The only caveat being that this all depends on the practice you join.
Which really can change everything.
One Ped surg that I know of in private practice works about 80 hours minimum a week probably makes around $800k a year takes call almost everyday and covers almost what appears to be all of south jersey (again thats mainly heresay - but from what I observed it seemed congruous).

I really suggest getting Iserson's Getting into a Residency.

Hi there,
Pediatric surgeons are generall pretty "hands-on" when it comes to the care of their patients. Peds surgery has the greatest depth and breadth of work with it comes to the surgical specialties. As a pediatric surgeon, you treat everything from cloacal extrovation to patent ductus arteriosus and you have 24 months of fellowship to master all of these procedures in this population.

When I was chief resident on peds surgery, I found that dealing with the parents was great. Most of the time, by the time the children were referred to us, the pediatric attendings had done most of the groundwork. On holidays and at nights, we were pretty busy and would often have cases. Since most pediatric surgeons work in tertiary care centers, you are going to be swamped with referrals on weekends and holidays. You are also the trauma and vascular surgeon for the pediatric population. In some ways, this is good because most kids are not in accidents after 11pm and this is bad because it is awful to lose a child in an accident.

I found peds surgery to be great. The patients get sick fast but they also heal faster. You are generally not treating folks who have spent years of time abusing themselves with tobacco and ETOH. The biggest downside are the kids with multiple congenital defects and conditions that are terminal. When a kid dies, it stays with you for a while.

Money-wise, my four peds surgery attendings were doing quite well and loved their work. I loved my peds surgery experience and my research is in pediatric surgery. Sure, it is very competive fellowship but it's a very nice surgical specialty.

njbmd

 

[drpectin]

would second the above. throw in difficulty of getting a spot, time spent doing research, etc. and the difficulty in dealing with both pediatric patients and parents, it's certainly not the field for everyone. i myself look foward to becoming a pedi surgeon even with the crappy lifestyle. hope the significant other understands :x

Fishmonger is right. I forgot that without 2 research years during your residency you wouldn't be a competitive applicant. And because of Pedisurg's "popularity" among residents (at least some) there tends to be many more applicants to the match than spots (around 30).

I once was smitten with the idea of becoming a pediatric surgeon, but having completed 2 years of research (in med school) under a surgical oncologist I'm being swayed towards Surg onc.

 

[GAdoc]

Fishmonger is right. I forgot that without 2 research years during your residency you wouldn't be a competitive applicant. And because of Pedisurg's "popularity" among residents (at least some) there tends to be many more applicants to the match than spots (around 30).

I once was smitten with the idea of becoming a pediatric surgeon, but having completed 2 years of research (in med school) under a surgical oncologist I'm being swayed towards Surg onc.

If one does the requisite five year general surgery residency and sits for the boards and then completes a two year ped. surg. fellowship and sits for those boards, will you be board certified in both adult and pediatric surgery? Is it common for surgeons trained in this way to care for all ages, or do they pretty much stick to either adult surgery or pediatric surgery.

 

[johnny_blaze]

Hi there,
As a pediatric surgeon, you treat everything from cloacal extrovation to patent ductus arteriosus and you have 24 months of fellowship to master all of these procedures in this population.

Hmmmm PDA? I was under the assumption that this was CT territory? Padiatric surgeons are trained in pediatric general surgery… with a bit more training in urology than a normal general surgeon. CT handles all PDA’s in my neck of the woods.

 

[njbmd]

Hmmmm PDA? I was under the assumption that this was CT territory? Padiatric surgeons are trained in pediatric general surgery… with a bit more training in urology than a normal general surgeon. CT handles all PDA’s in my neck of the woods.

Hi there,
I have done 12 PDA ligations and with Pediatric surgeons. PDA ligation is very much a part of your pediatric surgery fellowship training. Before that, I did three with our pediatric CT surgeon. I am hoping not to do any more of these cases. Some of my patients didn't like me pressing on their aortas.

njbmd

 

[maxheadroom]

PDA ligation is covered by both CT and Pedi Surg. At my place, most are done by the PedsCT guy, but not all. It's not a very difficult case (from my n of 5).

 

[Smoke This]

.

 

[Khirurg]

In our program we don't have Peds CT surgeon, so our Peds Surgeons do all PDA's as well as VATS and thoracic cases. I am just amazed that these guys feel comfortable doing all this stuff after only two years of training.

 

[maxheadroom]

Yes, the PediSurg guys do a ridiculous amount of stuff that I would never touch, but

1. They're the cream of the crop.
2. They do more in 2 years of fellowship than most people do in 5 years of residency.

 

[BA-AR]

Yes, the PediSurg guys do a ridiculous amount of stuff that I would never touch, but

1. They're the cream of the crop.
2. They do more in 2 years of fellowship than most people do in 5 years of residency.

Get a clue! It really means nothing if you do not get compensated for all that hard work and training. You do not see anyone in the private sector (capitalism) jumping up and down like an Idiot – for having a hard training and making squat at the end.

Awake-up people. “Show me the money!!!!” People with MBA (and less personal surface) are taking the hard-earned money from us.

 

[Lloyd Christmas]

Get a clue! It really means nothing if you do not get compensated for all that hard work and training. You do not see anyone in the private sector (capitalism) jumping up and down like an Idiot – for having a hard training and making squat at the end.

Awake-up people. “Show me the money!!!!” People with MBA (and less personal surface) are taking the hard-earned money from us.

Seriously? Yes, pediatric surgeons work very hard, but they are compensated very, very well. They do not "make squat at the end." According to the AAMC, the conservative median for peds surgeons is well >$300,000. I am sorry, but $300,000 is not "squat."

This is a good thread, do not let it get hijacked by this guy. Declining reimbursements is something that we are all going to have to deal with, and maybe reform, and is not specific to peds surg itself.

That being said, most go into peds surg not for the financial aspects, which I have previously shown are more than adequate, but for the wide variety of cases, the acuity of care, and the patient population, to name just a few.

 

[Complications]

Get a clue! It really means nothing if you do not get compensated for all that hard work and training. You do not see anyone in the private sector (capitalism) jumping up and down like an Idiot – for having a hard training and making squat at the end.

Awake-up people. “Show me the money!!!!” People with MBA (and less personal surface) are taking the hard-earned money from us.

It's like a beating drum with this guy. The same message over and over. Why don't you go do consulting?

 

[medulla]

The thought of Peds Surg has definitely crossed my mind more than once. I guess my big issue is the two extra years of research. I did two years of pretty heavy pediatric research prior to medical school at a big name place and I loved it. It's just that I will be graduating from med school next year at the grand old age of 28 and it is kind of daunting to think I won't really be done until 38.

Does anyone know how absolutely essential the 2 research years are, if they might accept my previous 2 years, and what are the cirucmstances/programs that do not absolutely make you do research and let you go straight into the fellowship?

Thanks in advance!

 

[cdql]

It's like a beating drum with this guy. The same message over and over. Why don't you go do consulting?

I suspect this is Drew Rosenhaus.

Tell me, how is Terrell?

 

[drpectin]

The thought of Peds Surg has definitely crossed my mind more than once. I guess my big issue is the two extra years of research. I did two years of pretty heavy pediatric research prior to medical school at a big name place and I loved it. It's just that I will be graduating from med school next year at the grand old age of 28 and it is kind of daunting to think I won't really be done until 38.

Does anyone know how absolutely essential the 2 research years are, if they might accept my previous 2 years, and what are the cirucmstances/programs that do not absolutely make you do research and let you go straight into the fellowship?

Thanks in advance!

I'm in the same boat as you, as I will also graduate medschool at 28 (I took 2 years to conduct full time research).
If you're really interested in ped surg talk to the Surg PD at your institution. My general feeling was that if you're asking about not doing the research then you're probably not serious about ped surg. It doesn't seem to be a "requirement" but talking to academic ped surg attendings, I've discovered that not spending time conducting research during residency makes you much less of an appealing candidate, and plus it is so competitive that you can bet almost everyone else HAS done research.

Yes being done at 38 with training is slightly daunting, but those research years are not as difficult as normal residency. More flexible schedule, less call (institution dependent), etc... You will work hard, but not in the same fashion.

 

[dark horse]

How important is it to go to a general surgery program that has a peds fellowship if that is what you want to do? Is it essential to find a place that has strong peds research?

 

[njbmd]

That being said, most go into peds surg not for the financial aspects, which I have previously shown are more than adequate, but for the wide variety of cases, the acuity of care, and the patient population, to name just a few.

Hi there,
All of the pediatric surgeons that I work with are extremely happy with their choice of profession. They are among the happiest surgeons that I have encountered in my residency.

One of my pediatric surgeons warned me about the pediatric fellowship. He did his fellowship at Pittsburgh Childrens and said that he hit the ground running. When he saw the breadth of practice and procedures to be mastered, he wondered how he would get it all done in 24 months. He did and he is about the best technical surgeon that I have ever operated with. His work is like fine choreography in that no motion is wasted. My technical skills increased exponentially after spending three months operating with him. He "busted my b--t on a regular basis because he demanded lots from me but I came out with an excellent evaluation because I gave him what he demanded. My time with him and his colleagues was golden.

I am currently working on a sentinel pediatric surgery research project. Since I have started this project, I have one paper in press and likely three more that need to be written when I get the time . Pediatric surgery lends itself to great research and the development of new techniques for surgery.

Judging by my pediatric surgery attendings, it's a nice lifestyle and very interesting work. It's a very difficult and competitive fellowship to get because there are so few fellowships available. You are also limited as to where you will be working because pediatric surgery by definition is located in tertiary care centers. If you are looking to hang out in a remote rural area for practice, peds surgery is not for you.

My advice to anyone who wants to do Peds Surgery is to track yourself early. Get into a solid academic general surgery residency and score high on ABSITE. It is also good to get to know your pediatric surgeons well because there just are not that many out there and they all know each other as I have found. Also, do some good research.

njbmd

 

[johnny_blaze]

To be fair… I’ve been looking into working with children more and more. I’m still fluffing between vascular and CT. For CT, I originally wanted to do adult cardiac surgery. I recently got some exposure to pead CT and was blown away by it. Some of the procedures are really exciting and complex, plus you get to work with adults as well, as some of these patients need re-do ops. The money isn’t as good though. A CABG where I’m from costs around 12-15k pounds to get done privately. Not bad for a few hours work. This isn’t the case with peads CT though. BUT… I think the best reward is working with kids… they’re so much better than the drunks, crack heads, and grumpy old people you find in the adult sector (bit of a generalization). I dunno… maybe I’m just feeling paternal! haha

 

[DNASplicer]

I am also very interested in peds surg. I have ask the "do you need research" as a surg resident in order to be competitive (I'll be 30 when I grad med school). The answer is a resounding NO. BUT 90% of the applicants have 1-2 years of peds surg under thier belts. The response I have received is you need to demonstrate an interest and sucess in academic medicine.

If you have previous research (that published, and well) that would fit. I also BELIEVE that medical education experience would work, but I have not specifically asked this question.

I have also been told that it's not imperative that you get a residency at a place that has a peds surg program, but it would probably be more important to do the peds surg research then - to get your name known. It's most important to go to an academic residency program.

Peds surg is a small circle and everyone knows each other. So get your name out there. It's not that hard, and in the end I think that's what it comes down to. One of the peds surg attendings told me that out of the 75 applicants this year (for 1 spot) he scored 30 of them as being perfect candidates. After that... it's the person's personality and how they fit with the program that is most important.

 

[Blade28]

I thoroughly enjoyed my 2 months of peds surg this year during internship - would love to pursue it as a career, but it's just WAY too competitive.

 

[Born2baDoctor]

Is it possible (I know anything is possibele but is it unheard of) for a Pediatric surgeon to go into private practice covering up to eight hospitals (totalling 1100+ beds) to get enough patients to support a practice? All responses will be appreciated.

 

[Blade28]

Depends on where the hospitals are located, and how many other children's hospitals are located nearby.

At the main children's hospital here, we have a group of 6 pediatric surgeons who are all pretty busy. They cover this hospital and the county hospital. They get a lot of referrals from nearby Alabama, Florida, South Carolina.

 

[sandg]

One of the previous posts makes it seem that there are quite a few more applicants each year than there are peds surg fellowship spots (makes sense given the small number of openings). Just curious to hear what anybody knows about applicants who are unsuccessful in obtaining a fellowship. Do most try again the next year--how do they increase their chances? Or do people give up and start making some bank as an attending?

 

[Doko]

Can you tell me what type of research in the Peds Surg field makes you competitive? I mean, can you just do any type of research in the Pediatric field?... what types of research are hot in peds surg?

 

[DNASplicer]

Can you tell me what type of research in the Peds Surg field makes you competitive? I mean, can you just do any type of research in the Pediatric field?... what types of research are hot in peds surg?

I don't think it's PEDS research that necessarily makes you look attractive to programs. I think it's more of how good are you and the people you worked with. So, I think if you have published papers in competitive journals that makes you look very sexy, regardless if it's in peds or not. Of course if I were to do research as a surg res... it would most likely be in peds surg.

I am not sure what topics are hot right now. I would check out abstracts at any national meetings in peds surg to figure that out.

 

[Alekesis]

Hi everyone,
I'm a tenth grader interested in becoming a peds surgeon when I grow up and am taking the full IB diploma track at my high school. I was wondering what classes you took in your first four years of college or maybe just tips to becoming better and more successful? For me the reason I really want to go into pediatric surgery is because I understand how much it can suck to have something weighing down on you and it's those things that drain you. So I would love to help them get rid of something to make that weight lighter and make them smile. I love seeing kids smile and seeing people happy, it makes me feel happy. So I just want to clarify how I should set my track so I can hopefully help those kids feel better and make them smile when I become a surgeon. Any tips would be greatly appreciated, thank you so much

 

[Winged Scapula]

Hi everyone,
I'm a tenth grader interested in becoming a peds surgeon when I grow up and am taking the full IB diploma track at my high school. I was wondering what classes you took in your first four years of college or maybe just tips to becoming better and more successful?

Classes you take in college won't help you become a pediatric surgeon. Take things that interest you, along with the pre-med requirements and you'll be fine.

For me the reason I really want to go into pediatric surgery is because I understand how much it can suck to have something weighing down on you and it's those things that drain you. So I would love to help them get rid of something to make that weight lighter and make them smile. I love seeing kids smile and seeing people happy, it makes me feel happy. So I just want to clarify how I should set my track so I can hopefully help those kids feel better and make them smile when I become a surgeon. Any tips would be greatly appreciated, thank you so much

Pediatric Surgery is not necessarily a "happy" specialty. You are dealing with a lot of chronically ill children, kids with congenital malformations, neurotic uptight parents and smiles are few and far between. OTOH, its a great specialty from the standpoint of the variety of cases and interesting things you can see in a tertiary care center.

At this point in time, my only advice for you to "set your track" is to get into the best college you can, enjoy life a little, and follow the advice in the Pre Allo forum about how to do well in college and meet all the med school requirements. Pediatric Surgery is a very long haul: one step at a time my friend.

 

[Psai]

Hi everyone,
I'm a tenth grader interested in becoming a peds surgeon when I grow up and am taking the full IB diploma track at my high school. I was wondering what classes you took in your first four years of college or maybe just tips to becoming better and more successful? For me the reason I really want to go into pediatric surgery is because I understand how much it can suck to have something weighing down on you and it's those things that drain you. So I would love to help them get rid of something to make that weight lighter and make them smile. I love seeing kids smile and seeing people happy, it makes me feel happy. So I just want to clarify how I should set my track so I can hopefully help those kids feel better and make them smile when I become a surgeon. Any tips would be greatly appreciated, thank you so much

Good luck man. Go to the best college and medical school you can