PCOM or allopathic?

[UGA2008]

Hey, so I've been accepted to PCOM so far this cycle (December), and I just recently was accepted to the University of Arizona medical school... and I'm a bit indecisive about where to go.

I loved PCOM and the feel... and UA was great as well (plus I've been living in Phoenix for a couple years now). I know PCOM has a stellar osteopathic rep, but I how does that measure up to PCOM? Are opportunities lost at PCOM?

Help...

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[DocEspana]

Do you have some connection to Philly that makes it a place you really want to study and perhaps practice? Is there something about PCOM you think it gives you that no place else gives?

If not, go to UA. It's gonna be the 'better' medical school and give you more opportunities. the 'better' school isnt always the best choice, but you need to decide if there are some intangibles about PCOM that draws you there over UA. Cause if the intangibles arent there and arent strong, you should go UA. I always list my own personal experience. Could have gone to the midwest for MD, but I would have been deeply unhappy with the area. So glad I'm in a major coast city because of how I am.

 

[Bacchus]

Go allopathic.

 

[JohnCarterIIIDO]

I disagree with docespana saying you will lose opportunities by going to PCOM over UA but I agree with his assessment otherwise.....

 

[Rollo]

Personally, I think you're gonna hate the Philly/NE weather more than anything...

 

[TeamZissou]

Dude it's an easy choice up front, U of A is a great med state MD school, not to mention their tuition is FAR cheaper. Nough said.

 

[River Rat]

university of arizona (or allopathic in general.) save yourself from all the politicking and hoops you have to jump thru to be on the same level as your MD counterparts later on, plus UoA is pretty sweet. also agree with going allopathic for financial reasons like a previous poster pointed out. DO schools are expensive.

 

[THH]

Easy mode, go with the cheap MD.

 

[sexyman]

U of AZ, congrats!!

 

[MrBeauregard]

UA. And this is coming from a DO student. Cheaper tuition, less hoops, only one board exam, etc.

 

[megatomotagem]

interesting perspectives, seems like most posters say go to the state school. i am personally in a similar situation- trying to choose between Southern IL SOM (MD) and CCOM (DO). i like the location and facilities of CCOM plus it's a better area for a sig. other to find work but the tuition is killing me. SIU is half the price but in a less desirable location way down south in IL. sorry to sabotage the thread but would posters say MD over DO for this situation as well? thanks.

 

[UGA2008]

Eh... I doubt it... I went to college and grew up in GA, and I spent a year in Boston working after college. I've only been in Arizona two years now, so the "attachment" is not what it would be had a GROWN UP in AZ (thus the decision).

I find Philly to be a far more "interesting city" than Tucson (you'd know if you ever went to Tucson!) but, I also realize that there are hoops. Do you guys think the reputation og PCOM plays a factor?

Personally, I think you're gonna hate the Philly/NE weather more than anything...

 

[UGA2008]

**TWIST** Take the monetary factor out of it for this. I'm attending school with the Army HPSP, so all costs are covered.

 

[Rollo]

PCOM is, hands down, the most reputable DO school in the entire country. All up and down east coast, majority of people including PDs and residents know PCOM because they've come across either a PCOM alumni or PCOM student.

Now, add on to this the fact that we're in Philly which is arguably one of the better cities to be in for all things medicine related. Opportunities here are endless and if you don't find what you're looking for in the city, drive hour and half up to NYC or 3 hours to Boston or couple hours down towards Baltimore/VA/DC.

Taking two boards is not as big of a deal as some people might make it out to be. The content is the same with the addition of OMM which, the boards OMM at least, is super easy and not a significant part of the exam. Sure, the exam question styles are different but definitely doable if you use comlex specific question banks.

My vote is go to PCOM. You'll land a great residency so long as you do well on your boards and rotate through the right programs. Chances are you probably won't want to go to Harvard or Yale because statistically you probably aren't smart enough (neither are majority of us so don't be offended) and you probably won't want to end up in an ultra-competitive super-nerdy ivory tower residency programs.

 

[DarkHorizon]

interesting perspectives, seems like most posters say go to the state school. i am personally in a similar situation- trying to choose between Southern IL SOM (MD) and CCOM (DO). i like the location and facilities of CCOM plus it's a better area for a sig. other to find work but the tuition is killing me. SIU is half the price but in a less desirable location way down south in IL. sorry to sabotage the thread but would posters say MD over DO for this situation as well? thanks.

you'd be stupid to go to CCOM over SIU.... SIU is way cheaper and has every residency program in house..... with a class of 72, you get your pick with residencies, pretty much

 

[Vancomycin12]

first off, Go Dawgs! -- secondly, go to UA. I know you want to move across the country for a change, but it will be better to go to your state MD school

 

[inmyslumber]

Go to the MD school over the DO school...regardless of any monetary concerns. It will be a wiser choice long term.

 

[group_theory]

Eh... I doubt it... I went to college and grew up in GA, and I spent a year in Boston working after college. I've only been in Arizona two years now, so the "attachment" is not what it would be had a GROWN UP in AZ (thus the decision).

I find Philly to be a far more "interesting city" than Tucson (you'd know if you ever went to Tucson!) but, I also realize that there are hoops. Do you guys think the reputation og PCOM plays a factor?

**TWIST** Take the monetary factor out of it for this. I'm attending school with the Army HPSP, so all costs are covered.

My initial response was "go with the cheaper state school" but since you're Army HPSP .... hmmm

PCOM certainly has a strong reputation and when I interviewed at several allopathic university programs (for residency - many years ago), many PDs have heard or have worked with PCOM alumni.

PCOM also has a large military physician alumni network, and the former Army Surgeon General, Lt. General Ronald Blanck, is a PCOM graduate.

And if you go through the military match - there won't be strong bias between DOs/MDs as you would get if you went through the NRMP.

If you end up in a military residency, the AOA almost always approve your first year as AOA-approved intern year (so it should be a non-issue).

Do you want to be associated with the AOA? Do you want to deal with AOA CMEs when it comes to license renewal (some states require AOA CMEs, others do not) when you're done with training?

There is something to be said about being "happy" and being able to do well ... versus being in a non-supportive environment and not doing as well.

 

[Braves123]

go allopathic, truth is you WILL be discriminated, filtered out, and screened against, asked to justify yourself, etc come residency time if you go to a osteo school. This is really a no brainer I think

 

[River Rat]

regardless of money, i'd still pick UofA over PCOM just because it'll free you from a lifetime of red tape and hoops to jump thru. Can you get to where you want to be at PCOM? most likely, unless it's some posh residency at UCSF/Harvard, etc etc. Dunno if that's what you want, but you want that opportunity to chase it later on if you change your mind.

 

[SpecterGT260]

you dont seem to be personally aligned with the philosophy of DO's which, in my mind, is the only real reason to chose a DO school over and MD school. Several of the points here support that - cost, politics, tests, ect....

 

[painmd87]

Think through it stage-by-stage. As with everything in life, it's one step at a time.

1) Where will you be happiest for the next four years? Philadelphia or Arizona? Regardless of what you want to do with the rest of your life, you must survive the next four years. If you choose where you'll be happy during these 4 years, you'll probably even thrive.

2) What do you want to do after you graduate? The vast majority of med students end up in the field they want. The SDN population and statistical outliers aside, you can almost certainly choose your speciality (within range of your academic achievements). If you're going into the military match (HPSP grads are not required to do milmatch, right?), it probably matters even less which degree you have.

3) Do you care about having an MD or a DO? Honestly, deep down, politically correct statements aside, do you care?

Statistically speaking, taking the MD is most likely the "safe" decision if you're picky about location/speciality for residency. Stats only tell part of the story, though, and it ultimately depends on who you are and how you carry yourself. Don't fall into the trap of believing that taking a DO resigns you to South Dakota Medicaid-Only Primary Care Associates and an MD is a free ride to a partnership at the Big City All-Cash Plastic Surgery Consortium.

Don't overlook the importance of being happy in school. Sure, it's "only four years," but think about any other 4 year period in your life, and decide if you would still be where you are if you were miserable all four.

 

[dav86]

interesting perspectives, seems like most posters say go to the state school. i am personally in a similar situation- trying to choose between Southern IL SOM (MD) and CCOM (DO). i like the location and facilities of CCOM plus it's a better area for a sig. other to find work but the tuition is killing me. SIU is half the price but in a less desirable location way down south in IL. sorry to sabotage the thread but would posters say MD over DO for this situation as well? thanks.

I am a MS4 at CCOM, no question go to SIU. Cheaper and easier to get into residency. Trust me, going through the process right now, I know I would have gotten at least 4-6 more interviews on the trail if I had gone to an MD school. Applying EM with both tests taken, and even then still not as easy as the MDs have it.

Plus CCOM's administration is crap. They are expanding too much, running out of third year and fourth year rotations for the classes behind me and don't provide you with any time to study for the boards. Plus your first two years are unnecessarily more difficult then they have to be. Actually the whole process is harder than it has to be. Difficult to set up aways and fourth year is not as cush as other schools. SIU hands down. Don't make the mistake of coming to CCOM.

 

[JohnCarterIIIDO]

Chances of getting into a residency at Harvard, etc are actually probably about the same for PCOM and UofA..... low for both - off the top of my head I know a PCOM grad that is doing a Hopkins Residency right now and one that did a UPenn residency years back - so it can happen if you really work for it

 

[group_theory]

Chances of getting into a residency at Harvard, etc are actually probably about the same for PCOM and UofA..... low for both - off the top of my head I know a PCOM grad that is doing a Hopkins Residency right now and one that did a UPenn residency years back - so it can happen if you really work for it

When I was a student at PCOM, the anesthesia chief resident at Harvard-BID was a PCOM graduate. As a student, I met a plastic surgeon who did his fellowship at Mayo Rochester.
A classmate of mine went to Harvard Spalding for pm&r. The former osteopathic supermoderator here went to Mayo for his residency.

Is it hard to get those spots - YES. There are programs that will discriminate against DOs (cough cough Duke cough).

What field would you like to go into? If it is surgical in nature, go MD. If it is medicine, family medicine, pediatrics, psych, then go where you will be happiest. If you are unsure, I would hedge towards UofA.

But rest assure, PCOM has a good reputation in both osteopathic circle as well as allopathic circle. The large alumni network has helped in that regards.

 

[tkim]

**TWIST** Take the monetary factor out of it for this. I'm attending school with the Army HPSP, so all costs are covered.

Still, unless you plan on attending a military residency, reputation of the school still has some bearing.

Group T has it straight - if you already have the mind to go into a surgical subspecialty go MD. PCOM's reputation aside, going to an MD school will keep more doors open for you in that regard.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Chances of getting into a residency at Harvard, etc are actually probably about the same for PCOM and UofA..... low for both - off the top of my head I know a PCOM grad that is doing a Hopkins Residency right now and one that did a UPenn residency years back - so it can happen if you really work for it

The one thing that has struck me as strange is that HUP (U Penn) has has no IM residents from PCOM. That should tell you something. They are in the same city. Unlike tcom who matches multiple people to UTSW each year, for some reason upenn is not as firendly.

So, if you are looking for an academic career or are looking for very competitive fellowship including the IM subspecialties like cards, gi, allergy or onc, go w arizona.

Please excuse the typos, i am on an ipad

 

[THH]

It is strange. For such an uncompetitive specialty im is really discriminatory. For instance if you want a top spot at the major cademic centers, it pays to come from a no name school on the md side than a do school. However for mozt other things, if you are a do (esp for em or gas) it deont matter at all

Please excuse the typos, i am on an ipad

Man, Apple really needs an autocorrect feature. Just a few months after Jobs bites the dust and they are already slipping!

 

[J-Rad]

How much cheaper is UofA than PCOM? Remember, the HP"S"P is really a loan, one in which you pay back the money they loaned you in spades as you are paying off your time, especially if you go into a higher paying field (and actually even if you're in a lower paying field). For all the bluster the Army likes to give about their GME, they have some crappy places to go for residency and if you're in a medical field, you have a high likelihood of doing GMO time after your residency/fellowship (one of my partners was deployed a few months after his pediatric sub fellowship to go to GMO time). Instead of looking at the HPSP as an equalizer between the two schools, you might want to look at having the opportunity to go to a less expensive school as the opportunity to not indenture yourself to milmed before you even start your journey.

 

[PsP for real]

Pretty sure it does cause I'm using one haha

 

[Skinceutical]

It is strange. For such an uncompetitive specialty im is really discriminatory. For instance if you want a top spot at the major cademic centers, it pays to come from a no name school on the md side than a do school. However for mozt other things, if you are a do (esp for em or gas) it deont matter at all

Please excuse the typos, i am on an ipad

I don't know about that.

Looking at the EM resident lists at a number of elite medical centers (the BI, Penn, Columbia/Cornell, Stanford, UCSF) I'm not seeing a single DO. Hopkins appears to be somewhat of an outlier, in that its program seems to be very open to DO applicants. I suspect the anesthesia resident lists would be fairly similar now. Admittedly, I have no idea if these programs are truly considered the "top tier" in EM or gas, however I think the overall culture at these institutions is fairly discriminatory against DOs in all but a handful of specialties (like PM&R, which seems to be open to DOs at even the very best programs).

 

[RickyJamesMD]

I don't know why we're feeding the trolls. The OP obviously knows what she wants and the limitations of DO over MD. She just wants to stir crap up.

 

[DocEspana]

the one thing that has struck me as strange i that hup has has no IM residents from PCOM. they are in the same city. unlike tcom who matches multiple people to utsw each year, for some reason upenn is not as firendly.

So, if you are looking for an academic career or are looking for very competitive fellowship ( cards, gi, allergy or onc)go w arizona.



It is strange. For such an uncompetitive specialty im is really discriminatory. For instance if you want a top spot at the major cademic centers, it pays to come from a no name school on the md side than a do school. However for mozt other things, if you are a do (esp for em or gas) it deont matter at all

Please excuse the typos, i am on an ipad

Nitpicking, but, did you list oncology as a competitive field? It is the field with the highest number of foreign grads and specifically the most US Caribbean grads as per AMA residency and fellowship guide.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

i dunno, everyone who's IM always speaks of onc being increasingly competitive and in the ranks of GI, cards, allergy...

personally, if i were to have chosen IM, i'd have done allergy... so chill. but, i did enjoy my cards month too. good thing i don't have to decide.

 

[DocEspana]

i dunno, everyone who's IM always speaks of onc being increasingly competitive and in the ranks of GI, cards, allergy...

personally, if i were to have chosen IM, i'd have done allergy... so chill. but, i did enjoy my cards month too. good thing i don't have to decide.

49.4% IMGs in the 2011 match. The highest of any specialty.

I'm sure there are more factors at play then "its easier than expected". It may be drawing a low interest.

 

[dreamweaver1988]

Easy, do you want to be "UGA2008, MD" or "UGA2008, DO"? Up to you. Also, I would argue that a state MD school trumps a well-known DO school 100 times out of 100.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

49.4% IMGs in the 2011 match. The highest of any specialty.

I'm sure there are more factors at play then "its easier than expected". It may be drawing a low interest.

So be it. Not sure why, but it's all I hear. I personally dont have a bone in the matter so we'll go with the data.

 

[MIAYO]

Go to UA. Do you really want to have to jump through unnecessary hoops coming from a DO school?

 

[Rollo]

Easy, do you want to be "UGA2008, MD" or "UGA2008, DO"? Up to you. Also, I would argue that a state MD school trumps a well-known DO school 100 times out of 100.

Go to UA. Do you really want to have to jump through unnecessary hoops coming from a DO school?

You kids need to pass your first medical school exam before you stroll in here and dispense your oh-so-thought-out-and-logically-sound advice.

 

[MIAYO]

You kids need to pass your first medical school exam before you stroll in here and dispense your oh-so-thought-out-and-logically-sound advice.

Does passing your first exam give you the power to give out advice? Not following what your getting at.

 

[zeroseventysix]

I'm not brilliant, but I believe it was a question of credibility. You have the power to run your mouth however you want

Does passing your first exam give you the power to give out advice? Not following what your getting at.

 

[Instatewaiter]

49.4% IMGs in the 2011 match. The highest of any specialty.

I'm sure there are more factors at play then "its easier than expected". It may be drawing a low interest.

What matters is the most recent training. So, while being an IMG does matter for selection for residency, it matters less for fellowship since they will be ranked based on the type of training they got during residency. We don't know where those IMGs came from for their residency. For instance, Hopkins and The Brigham have a few IMGs, I guarantee they would out rank almost any US medical graduate. That said, I was surprised what percentage IMGs made up for all specialties, onc especially. Here are the match rates for Onc, Cards and GI:

Onc had a 62% match rate.
Cards 64% match rate
GI 58% match rate

Seem pretty comparable.

You kids need to pass your first medical school exam before you stroll in here and dispense your oh-so-thought-out-and-logically-sound advice.

You kids need to go through the match before you stroll in here and dispense your oh-so-thought-out-and-logically-sound advice.

How does it feel? Everyone on here has the right to give advice even if they are a lowly pre-med, med stud, resident or attending. Ad-hominems add very little to a conversation

 

[Rollo]

You kids need to go through the match before you stroll in here and dispense your oh-so-thought-out-and-logically-sound advice.

How does it feel? Everyone on here has the right to give advice even if they are a lowly pre-med, med stud, resident or attending. Ad-hominems add very little to a conversation

Nice try but that isn't particularly true for 3-4th year medical students in this thread who have taken both sets of boards, know upperclassmen who have gone through match, have worked with residents who went through both matches, have talked to various program directors about what they do and don't look for in applicants, and have the ability to evaluate both national and their own school match data in the context of a certain geographic region, specific specialty, or types of residency programs.

Thanks for playing.

 

[DrMediterranean]

 

[dreamweaver1988]

You kids need to pass your first medical school exam before you stroll in here and dispense your oh-so-thought-out-and-logically-sound advice.

I've heard a teeny-weeny rumor that MDs and DOs are slightly different...idk...maybe that's only the topic of EVERY SINGLE SDN THREAD.

Point is I think the perception of the general public is that the MD degree is superior, even though we know they are equivalent (I will apply to both). Since we're headed into a service industry, customer perception matters. It's almost like the (hilarious) study that show people with "stereotypically black" names (LaFonda, Sh'niqua, d'Andrew, Jamal, LaVatt, etc.) tend to get the cold shoulder when calling about job openings. Perception matters. I shadowed a GS recently and when one of his consults found out he was a DO, she literally said she would look around for an MD instead. Sucks but that's the way it is, especially in some parts of the country.

 

[Jack is Back]

This can't be a serious thread.

 

[JBubel]

To be completely honest, I've only read through about half the thread... regardless, I can't help but respond to this:

First off, I am a DO student attending a very reputable DO school (ATSU - KCOM) I'm very proud to be a DO and very glad I made the decision I did despite my alternatives.

Secondly, any MD who says, "MD is superior to DO," or, "MD's are always picked over DO's," is being naive. I'm not going to say it doesn't happen or that some amount of biased doesn't still exist (thanks to those still caught in the misleading mindframe of the late 60's, early 70's), but each year that bias is growing further and further diluted as people realize both sides are good at what they do. Despite what some may want to think, in today's world, DOs and MDs do in fact work side by side, frequently without anyone being the wiser, and we contribute to the growth and developement of each other's professions. It won't be long before that bias is irradicated, and on that day, maybe the trash-talkers will finally learn the meaning of the words "respect," "humility," and "professionalism."

That goes both ways... DO's who trash-talk MDs are no better. The fact of the matter is that we each have a lot to learn from each other... and we are.

As for which school to go with... when you ask, "DO or MD?" There are some important considerations. To be completely honest, even I have to admit it, currently, it is easier to specialize as an MD (mostly because of old-guard physicians). When I say this, it's FAR from impossible to specialize as a DO (particularly if you want to go into anatomy-heavy field such as radiology, ortho, most surgical fields, ect... the anatomy emphasis of the DO is pretty useful here), and I have many friends in the DO world pulling it off without a hitch. That being said, if you have any trouble holding your grades up, you will be selected against.

For any sort of general practice, DO is fantastic. DOs have a wonderful reputation in general practice and are extremely capable to handle multi-functional clinics. This doesn't mean MDs aren't good at general practice (anyone knows it's pretty easy to get a general-practice residency), but I'd be remiss to not mention the fact that certain efforts are being put forward by many leading allopathic institutions that nod to more osteopathic approaches.

U of A vs. PCOM? Both are outstanding facilities. Both have a great reputation... and I actually have friends at both... niether of which I've ever heard complain (beyond the typical, "med schools hard... ect"). I really don't think you'd be dissapointed either way.

Best of luck to you in your decisions, and enjoy your last few months of "freedom." We'll see you on the other side.

Best,

Jennifer Bubel
ATSU / KCOM - OMS I

P.S. - To all my colleagues, DO and MD alike, I look forward to working with you in the future.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Nice try but that isn't particularly true for 3-4th year medical students in this thread who have taken both sets of boards, know upperclassmen who have gone through match, have worked with residents who went through both matches, have talked to various program directors about what they do and don't look for in applicants, and have the ability to evaluate both national and their own school match data in the context of a certain geographic region, specific specialty, or types of residency programs.

Thanks for playing.

I'm pretty sure you missed what I was saying. Go back and re-read it. If you need to ask someone else what I was trying to say, please do so.

 

[MIAYO]

I'm not brilliant, but I believe it was a question of credibility. You have the power to run your mouth however you want

Thanks. I understood clearly what he was saying. I just believe everyone has a right to give advice on this forum.

 

[MIAYO]

What matters is the most recent training. So, while being an IMG does matter for selection for residency, it matters less for fellowship since they will be ranked based on the type of training they got during residency. We don't know where those IMGs came from for their residency. For instance, Hopkins and The Brigham have a few IMGs, I guarantee they would out rank almost any US medical graduate. That said, I was surprised what percentage IMGs made up for all specialties, onc especially. Here are the match rates for Onc, Cards and GI:

Onc had a 62% match rate.
Cards 64% match rate
GI 58% match rate

Seem pretty comparable.




You kids need to go through the match before you stroll in here and dispense your oh-so-thought-out-and-logically-sound advice.

How does it feel? Everyone on here has the right to give advice even if they are a lowly pre-med, med stud, resident or attending. Ad-hominems add very little to a conversation

Agreed.