PBL & Philippines Med Schs

[pd1329]

Jan. 10, 2008

Which med schools in the Philippines do not have PBL (problem Based Learning) style ? I have heard that it was not successful compare to the tradition one. UP for sure does not follow it.

Jon
[email protected]

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[bleudsky]

^ who told you that it wasn't successful? or where did you hear that it wasn't successful?

i came from UST Class 2006 & we are the second batch who underwent PBL. our batch & the previous one (Class 2005) have done well in the local licensure exams. most recently (August 2007 physicians licensure exams), our batch got 91% passing rate & had 3 topnotchers. those who applied for local residency training have just started with their training in different fields.

 

[Saipan]

Hahaha.....yet another thread from someone who can't keep their eye on the ball.

Who cares whether a school has PBL or not. Has PBL ever stopped anyone from taking lecture notes, going to the library, looking up s/sx on the internet, or God forbid....carrying a book to school!!!!

PBL has gotten a bad rap in the PI. I can only wonder why....it's not inherently bad. Perhaps it's because the medical education sytem in the PI seems to be a little entrenched and unyielding to change...and that includes the students.

Because remember, the system was in need of change. Thankfully there were brave and forceful Deans in this country who tried to shake things up by introducing PBL.

But so many others seem to prefer the old-fashioned (incredibly boring!!!) lectures where 150 students photocopy the notes of one the top 3 classmates.

Ten years ago, lectures were attended by 147 sleeping students and three who desperately took notes that went straight to the photocopier. Today, as innovative schools drop their PBL programs, lectures are attended by 147 texting students, and three who desperately take notes.

Oh, well....

 

[bleudsky]

i can not imagine what would my med school life be if i enrolled to a school which used the traditional curriculum. i truly enjoyed my PBL days even if our professors underestimated our knowledge before. i had no regrets knowing that i was going through a curriculum i'd never heard of before & quite in the "experimental" stage.


i'd rather read 12 pages (or more) of a topic in Harrison's at the library or Starbucks, than listen to a long boring lecture.

 

[UIC Killa]

Hahaha.....yet another thread from someone who can't keep their eye on the ball.

Who cares whether a school has PBL or not. Has PBL ever stopped anyone from taking lecture notes, going to the library, looking up s/sx on the internet, or God forbid....carrying a book to school!!!!

PBL has gotten a bad rap in the PI. I can only wonder why....it's not inherently bad. Perhaps it's because the medical education sytem in the PI seems to be a little entrenched and unyielding to change...and that includes the students.

Because remember, the system was in need of change. Thankfully there were brave and forceful Deans in this country who tried to shake things up by introducing PBL.

But so many others seem to prefer the old-fashioned (incredibly boring!!!) lectures where 150 students photocopy the notes of one the top 3 classmates.

Ten years ago, lectures were attended by 147 sleeping students and three who desperately took notes that went straight to the photocopier. Today, as innovative schools drop their PBL programs, lectures are attended by 147 texting students, and three who desperately take notes.
Oh, well....

If you can get your hands on a digital recorder and just place it in front of the class to record, it may make things a lot easier as you can replay all the lectures at various speeds multiple times.... Not sure if you can find one of those in the phils or if it's affordable but in my undergrad a lot of students use to do it. Maybe the school can get one for the whole class and since it's digital they can just put the lectures up online.

 

[bleudsky]

well, i've tried that before (once or twice) & it wasn't successful. all i got afterwards was a "garbled" audio, &/or my classmates' chats. then, i have to write down everything i've heard, which eats a lot of my time. i'd rather have a copy of the lecture then take side notes while listening (which i find more convenient).

sorry but no school provides a tape recorder for the entire class. no college includes funds for that. don't get me wrong - we can afford for it individually, but no one cares to buy one coz they know they won't use it. so, why bother?

anyways, let get back to the topic..

 

[LocutusofBorg]

Has PBL ever stopped anyone from taking lecture notes

Actually, it HAS. I was enrolled in Cebu Institute of Medicine, and withdrew in large part due to its PBL method. I mean, the system has NO LECTURES AT ALL. The facilitator listens to the student discussion, and only steps in if someone says something totally wrong and others don't correct them. Once a week, there may or may not be a "correlate" - a short 1 hour summary of important topics.

In my own experience and opinion, PBL is a great program for the right type of student - the kind who will succeed anyway. Most of my classmates at CIM were valedictorians, graduates of competitive undergraduate Medical Technology programs -- basically, people who have had more than just a preview of medical subjects. 90% of them had a thorough background in histology and anatomy and most had taken classes like Microbiology, Pharmacology, and even Hematology in undergraduate. For them, PBL is a great way to add to that knowledge.

However, for someone going into medical school "fresh", with just a US-type premedical education (basic bio, orgo, physics, gen chem, and maybe an extra bio class or two), PBL is the system of death. There is a reason why University of Phoenix doesn't offer an MD degree - medicine is not a self-study subject. You can't read a book at call yourself a doctor. At least in the very beginning, a guided approach is essential for mere mortals like myself.

You might think that maybe the school was bad, but I assure you the school is good. In 2007 CIM ranked above UST with 2 top notchers and 100% Philippine board passing rate. Yet I attribute these accomplishments mostly to the quality of the student body.

So unless you have a truly superior undergraduate background, I dont recommend the PBL model. Then again, if you really do have a superior undergraduate background, why not apply to med schools in the US? That would be the best choice anyway.

 

[Saipan]

So unless you have a truly superior undergraduate background, I dont recommend the PBL model. Then again, if you really do have a superior undergraduate background, why not apply to med schools in the US? That would be the best choice anyway.

I don't agree. The Trad/PBL debate is nonsense and you kind of agree also...I mean, of course a person needs a "superior" undergraduate background...medical schools don't generally recruit dummies. Since when have average undergrads been encouraged to apply for medical school.

Jeez, if a person has a weak background, then perhaps they should consider a different career path.

I advise students that they should only apply to Filipino schools if they have strong reasons for wanting to study in the PI...i.e. a reason other than low MCAT scores.

I also advise prospective students that if they are weak candidates for a US medical score, i.e. a weak undergraduate preparation, then they will be weak students in a Filipino medical school.

There are few shortcuts in the study of medicine, and attending a Filipino school is not one of them. Weak preparation and lack of study will kick most people in the butt.

A Filipino medical school education is ideal for the alternative student (Fil-Am, Traveller-type, caucasian, older...etc) who has a strong science background who intends to specialize in Family medicine. Such an individual probably doesn't have the "perfect" resume that many US med schools require in an applicant. Applying to a Filipino med school allows such a student to cut through all the US paperwork bs.

Why Family Medicine? Well, I don't know why anyone would pay US med school prices for a Family Medicine residency when they can get the same thing at Filipino prices, and as for other specialties, well, residencies can be obtained, but it gets more difficult...but I digress.

The bottom line is that nothing will make up for a lack of preparation except hours of hard work

And I roll in laughter when anybody suggests that a different lecture style in a Filipino medical school can make up for wasted hours drinking beer off-campus as an undergraduate in the US.

By the way, LoB, how's the laundry down there in Cebu? Are you still doing it by hand in a basin you keep under your bed, and hanging it out the window to dry? Or are you spending a few pesos on a laundry lady so you can "maximize" your time in the library.

 

[bleudsky]

points of view from someone who PROUDLY graduated from the PBL curriculum.

Actually, it HAS. I was enrolled in Cebu Institute of Medicine, and withdrew in large part due to its PBL method. I mean, the system has NO LECTURES AT ALL. The facilitator listens to the student discussion, and only steps in if someone says something totally wrong and others don't correct them. Once a week, there may or may not be a "correlate" - a short 1 hour summary of important topics.

sorry it was your loss but during our time, we still had lectures but it was LESS in comparison with the traditional or integrated curriculum. our lectures were dependent on the construction/design of the module in order to meet all learning objectives, & on the discretion of the module leader. there were times we had to sacrifice our free times for 2-4 hrs of additional lectures, just to be certain that we know the "must knows" or everything that should be learned.

if you're a passive student (spoon-feed attitude, lecture-dependent, relies on hands-outs), then i advise you to enroll in a different school w/ the traditional curriculum.

In my own experience and opinion, PBL is a great program for the right type of student - the kind who will succeed anyway. Most of my classmates at CIM were valedictorians, graduates of competitive undergraduate Medical Technology programs -- basically, people who have had more than just a preview of medical subjects. 90% of them had a thorough background in histology and anatomy and most had taken classes like Microbiology, Pharmacology, and even Hematology in undergraduate. For them, PBL is a great way to add to that knowledge.

You might think that maybe the school was bad, but I assure you the school is good. In 2007 CIM ranked above UST with 2 top notchers and 100% Philippine board passing rate. Yet I attribute these accomplishments mostly to the quality of the student body.

So unless you have a truly superior undergraduate background, I dont recommend the PBL model.

i don't think so. based on my previous experience, majority of my classmates were BS Bio grads & those who graduated without honors (like me). some even came from provincial colleges. and most of us didn't had that "superior undergraduate background" you were talking about.

in my opinion, whatever your curriculum is, it is up to you how you will succeed academically & professionally. no curriculum will dictate nor can measure your success nor what specialization you have to take (coz that decision is solely up to you). i know other residents (also PBL grads) who are doing well in their different specializations (Surgery, IM, Pedia, Radio). in practice, no one will give a damn as to the curriculum you had during your med school. of course, i'm speaking in terms of local residency training.

 

[ustmd2006]

haven't visited this part of sdn for a while! so sorry if i'll digging up an old topic...

as my fellow batchmate from ust said, pbl was awesome...like her, i can't imagine having gone through med school in the traditional manner...they had us sit down a few times with the lower batches during their biochem lectures...i was attentive for maybe an hour of the four/five straight hours...and you have to keep in mind i'm the obsessive-compulsive type when it comes to taking down notes and paying attention to lectures! plus, that professor was amazing...one of my favorites!

anyway, to the original poster, you are incorrect, up has changed to pbl...well, i've been out of the country for a year now, but when i graduated and left ust, up had adopted pbl.

 

[bleudsky]

^ luis-cious!! long time no see. how's your USMLE so far?

actually, UP CM has adopted a new curriculum. format is similar to PBL in the sense that they do it by systems. i don't know how the call it but they've abandoned the traditional type of learning (UP students, please correct me on this. thanks!).

 

[jaypeeMD]

^ luis-cious!! long time no see. how's your USMLE so far?

actually, UP CM has adopted a new curriculum. format is similar to PBL in the sense that they do it by systems. i don't know how the call it but they've abandoned the traditional type of learning (UP students, please correct me on this. thanks!).

they call it OSI (organ systems integrated). other schools have also adopted this curriculum.

 

[chappy88]

guys, im from mindanao. i need a good med school in which is located in the island.

my choices are as follows:

davao med sch foundation
xavier university-ateneo de cagayan
zambo med sch-ateneo de zambo
ozamiz university medical center

which is the most competitive among these schools?

dont recommended state university. they have this 2:1 ratio which means you will serve the government for 2 years for every year in study.

thanks!

 

[bleudsky]

jaypeeMD, thanks!

 

[bleudsky]

my bad.. double post.

 

[LocutusofBorg]

we still had lectures but it was LESS in comparison with the traditional or integrated curriculum. our lectures were dependent on the construction/design of the module in order to meet all learning objectives, & on the discretion of the module leader. there were times we had to sacrifice our free times for 2-4 hrs of additional lectures, just to be certain that we know the "must knows" or everything that should be learned.

We had no more than 3 hours of lectures per week.

if you're a passive student (spoon-feed attitude, lecture-dependent, relies on hands-outs), then i advise you to enroll in a different school w/ the traditional curriculum.

I am an active learner, and most of my learning happens when I sit with a book on my own. HOWEVER, without a lecture, you are stuck deciding for yourself what is important, and what is not. I agree that its IMPOSSIBLE to do well in medical school without self-motivated study. But medicine is NOT a self-learned discipline, it requires insight from those with more experience than I, who can focus my attention on whats really necessary (or explain WHY it is necessary), so that I can go back to the book and learn on my own, properly. I found PBL sessions to be nothing more than the blind leading the blind.

i don't think so. based on my previous experience, majority of my classmates were BS Bio grads & those who graduated without honors (like me). some even came from provincial colleges. and most of us didn't had that "superior undergraduate background" you were talking about.

In the US, the standard pre-medical curriculum involves 1 year basic bio, 1.5 years of physics, 1 year gen chem, and 1 year organic chemistry. This is different from the typical filipino pre-med prep of nursing or med tech. If you have even a basic understanding of medical subjects its possible to study on your own, in a PBL format. But for someone who has never had histology, PBL is a HORRIBLE way to learn how to differentiate tissues in a microscope. For someone who has never had anatomy, its a WASTE OF TIME to assist in corpse dissection when you haven't had a lecture primer to give you a basic idea of what are the visible structures (sure, you can use an atlas, but you simply won't be able to keep up with the classmates who have had anatomy in the past). Of course there are exceptional people who can learn things on the fly, but with a 32 MCAT and a 95 NMAT im not exactly a dull bulb either. My negative experience with PBL is real, and I doubt that it's the exception.

in practice, no one will give a damn as to the curriculum you had during your med school. of course, i'm speaking in terms of local residency training.

Sure, but I bet a PBL background might give someone a few more bragging rights (it IS harder).

 

[bleudsky]

^ well that's your opinion. but in our case, we enjoyed PBL coz it showed us the clinical side of medicine, less of the academic side. heck! i bet some students wouldn't even remember their histology after 2 years (unless you wanna go into pathology).

 

[bleudsky]

We had no more than 3 hours of lectures per week.

well, it's your loss. we had more than 3 hrs of lecture in a week.

the bragging that we did was when we got a 91% passing rate during the aug 2007 licensure exams. proof that they can't judge us solely by our curriculum & how some faculty members had to eat their words (when they said earlier that "mga PBL walang alam").

oh well. as i have said in another post, "nasa estudyante ang pagsisikap, wala sa paaralan (or curriculum)".

 

[Saipan]

Bleudsky is bascially correct and on the ball re PBL.

LocutusofBorg dislikes PBL but fails to acknowledge that there is no standard PBL format. Every school that uses or has used PBL in the last few years has had a different format. And some schools have even changed/modififed the format from year-to-year.

Ths issue with LocutusofBerg seems to be that he did not fully understand what PBL would entail at the school he originally attneded. If he had fully questioned the admission liason or other instructors he should have known that there would only be three hours of lecture at that school.

Knowing himself and especially his learning style he should have more carefully chosen a school with a format that would have suited him.

I do recall offering advice, and I remember that LocutusofBerg was very confident of his ability to overcome any and all problems. I felt that offering further advice would be wasted. After all I don't like to spend all my time on this board. Oh, well...all we can do on this board is offer advice. After that the reader is on his own.

It's very important that an aspiring foreign student applying to Fil med schools understand fully what they are getting into. LocutusofBerg fell short in this area.

The first few years of med school don't require any insight. All they require is hours and hours of reading so that you can follow lectures, pass exams, and make up- for any deficiencies in prior knowledge.

Let's get a new topic.

 

[hEaVensEnT]

We had no more than 3 hours of lectures per week.



I am an active learner, and most of my learning happens when I sit with a book on my own. HOWEVER, without a lecture, you are stuck deciding for yourself what is important, and what is not. I agree that its IMPOSSIBLE to do well in medical school without self-motivated study. But medicine is NOT a self-learned discipline, it requires insight from those with more experience than I, who can focus my attention on whats really necessary (or explain WHY it is necessary), so that I can go back to the book and learn on my own, properly. I found PBL sessions to be nothing more than the blind leading the blind.


In the US, the standard pre-medical curriculum involves 1 year basic bio, 1.5 years of physics, 1 year gen chem, and 1 year organic chemistry. This is different from the typical filipino pre-med prep of nursing or med tech. If you have even a basic understanding of medical subjects its possible to study on your own, in a PBL format. But for someone who has never had histology, PBL is a HORRIBLE way to learn how to differentiate tissues in a microscope. For someone who has never had anatomy, its a WASTE OF TIME to assist in corpse dissection when you haven't had a lecture primer to give you a basic idea of what are the visible structures (sure, you can use an atlas, but you simply won't be able to keep up with the classmates who have had anatomy in the past). Of course there are exceptional people who can learn things on the fly, but with a 32 MCAT and a 95 NMAT im not exactly a dull bulb either. My negative experience with PBL is real, and I doubt that it's the exception.



Sure, but I bet a PBL background might give someone a few more bragging rights (it IS harder).

GO "LOTUS OF BERG"!!! woooohoooooo 95 on the NMAT!!! and do normal people actually score 32 on MCAT?? OMG tutor me!! hahahaha
OSI kick PBL's butt!!! no offense to anyone tho...i dont like studying on my own...i attend lectures even when im not in the mood to pay any attention...i photocopy notes so yeah i think OSI is good for me (although i know you people must be thinking that medicine in itself isnt right for me, forget OSI or PBL hhahahahaha ) but i think this topic was getting a bit too serious so yeah...

 

[tantrum]

GO "LOTUS OF BERG"!!! woooohoooooo 95 on the NMAT!!! and do normal people actually score 32 on MCAT?? OMG tutor me!! hahahaha
OSI kick PBL's butt!!! no offense to anyone tho...i dont like studying on my own...i attend lectures even when im not in the mood to pay any attention...i photocopy notes so yeah i think OSI is good for me (although i know you people must be thinking that medicine in itself isnt right for me, forget OSI or PBL hhahahahaha ) but i think this topic was getting a bit too serious so yeah...

What is he doing in the Phil. with an MCAT of 32? Unless his GPA is bad.

 

[Epikya]

hey guys.. I'm new here.. I've been reading a lot of your post and I'm starting to think that the PBL based curriculum is the style of learning suited for me. i'll be pursuing medicine nxt year and dont want to land on a school with a non-PBL based curriculum. This is due to the fact that ---> I dont like to brag 5hrs of lecturing straight for a topic given with whom when you got home you will read the topic on the text book "again" because you dont understand it and your attention span lasted only for the first hour of the discussion...

so in short, do you guys have a list of schools here in the Phil. that uses the PBL type of learning??? don't want to land on a school with handouts given by the prof being the sole way to pass and be a M.D.


sorry... just been fed-up by the spoon feeding type of learning

tnx in advance future colleagues.

 

[Saipan]

What is he doing in the Phil. with an MCAT of 32? Unless his GPA is bad.

I'm thinking he's either here for the beer or the chicks. Med school is just a hobby for him.

 

[hEaVensEnT]

I'm thinking he's either here for the beer or the chicks. Med school is just a hobby for him.

hey!!!
dont be too hard on him ...u get beer in the US and why the hell wud he come here for chicks?!?!?!? have u guys seen the girls there?!?!? theres no reason to come here for chicks!!!...maybe he wants med school to be a breeze

 

[tantrum]

hey!!!
dont be too hard on him ...u get beer in the US and why the hell wud he come here for chicks?!?!?!? have u guys seen the girls there?!?!? theres no reason to come here for chicks!!!...maybe he wants med school to be a breeze

Med school in the Philippines is not a breeze. They just work you harder with longer hours. It's not necessarily a better system as they are much more efficient in US schools.

 

[mecbd]

Well you wouldn't need to travel all the way for BEER ....maybe for girls...PINAY are really one of a kind....irresistible...

To hEaVensEnT :

Musta! Where are you from? which school are you planning to enroll?

 

[mecbd]

Any of These 2 would be great :

davao med sch foundation
xavier university-ateneo de cagayan

guys, im from mindanao. i need a good med school in which is located in the island.

my choices are as follows:

davao med sch foundation
xavier university-ateneo de cagayan
zambo med sch-ateneo de zambo
ozamiz university medical center

which is the most competitive among these schools?

dont recommended state university. they have this 2:1 ratio which means you will serve the government for 2 years for every year in study.

thanks!

 

[hEaVensEnT]

Well you wouldn't need to travel all the way for BEER ....maybe for girls...PINAY are really one of a kind....irresistible...

To hEaVensEnT :

Musta! Where are you from? which school are you planning to enroll?

lol thats coz ur pinoy...so u wud find pinays irresistable...hes a foreigner and hes gng to cebu...the nice pinays r in manila i feel...heheh biased!!
im from makati...got into UE and ASMPH...not sure if im enrolling...mite just work as a nurse abroad...but if ever...i prefer ASMPH (dats ateneo's new school)
bout u? wer u frm n d wer u studyin?

 

[bleudsky]

sorry guys. please stick to the topic. thanks!

 

[mecbd]

Well...im not pinoy..I believe pinays are nice & sensitive..i have lived in the Phils. for the last 7years to be precise pasong tamo makati I am done with college....

currently I am providing services to students in the south asian region who wants 2 study medical / related courses in the phils..

well for you best would be go to USA / Canada

lol thats coz ur pinoy...so u wud find pinays irresistable...hes a foreigner and hes gng to cebu...the nice pinays r in manila i feel...heheh biased!!
im from makati...got into UE and ASMPH...not sure if im enrolling...mite just work as a nurse abroad...but if ever...i prefer ASMPH (dats ateneo's new school)
bout u? wer u frm n d wer u studyin?

 

[hEaVensEnT]

Well...im not pinoy..I believe pinays are nice & sensitive..i have lived in the Phils. for the last 7years to be precise pasong tamo makati I am done with college....

currently I am providing services to students in the south asian region who wants 2 study medical / related courses in the phils..

well for you best would be go to USA / Canada

if ur not pinoy....then what are u??!!? alien? zombie? btw..bleudsky wants us to stick to the topic...talk abt pbl now

 

[bleudsky]

^ nyek! it doesn't have to be "now". it's not a matter of life and death, you know?

if u wanna talk more about mecbd, perhaps you should create a new thread for him.

just my 2 cents.

 

[hEaVensEnT]

^ nyek! it doesn't have to be "now". it's not a matter of life and death, you know?

if u wanna talk more about mecbd, perhaps you should create a new thread for him.

just my 2 cents.

hehehe relax its ok...im nt that into him hehe

 

[kisumaru]

My school, MSU, is purely PBL since around 2000. Yes, there exist a med school named Mindanao State University. It may not be a popular med school and I barely can read any message talking about MSU but it has a decent medical board exam passing rate -- more than 90% on the average since the start of the PBL.

I would say that it's effective because students learn to be independent, efficient, disciplined, and other virtues that a med student should have.

 

[angiostent]

i think i would agree.....

 

[jgreyMD]

guys, im from mindanao. i need a good med school in which is located in the island.

my choices are as follows:

davao med sch foundation
xavier university-ateneo de cagayan
zambo med sch-ateneo de zambo
ozamiz university medical center

which is the most competitive among these schools?

dont recommended state university. they have this 2:1 ratio which means you will serve the government for 2 years for every year in study.

thanks!

where did you end up going?