"Patient is a waste of equipment"

[Anastomoses]

the phrasing by the neurosurgeon is off-putting, but the damage this person does by giving people this skewed perception of medical care on fb is so horribly worse.

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[Nasrudin]

Sorry to be such a language "Nazi" but this particular one annoys me as it is so commonly misspelled by intelligent, well educated people for reasons that escape me.

Ok, ok. But of all the things to join the national socialists over-- okay--->ok--as a choice, seems to indicate more about your sex life than it does about the user of the commonly accepted grammatical equivalent.

 

[evilbooyaa]

Ok, ok. But of all the things to join the national socialists over-- okay--->ok--as a choice, seems to indicate more about your sex life than it does about the user of the commonly accepted grammatical equivalent.

Wait, what?

 

[Winged Scapula]

Ok, ok. But of all the things to join the national socialists over-- okay--->ok--as a choice, seems to indicate more about your sex life than it does about the user of the commonly accepted grammatical equivalent.

lol...OK, not sure what this says about my sex life, unless you are implying that this makes me uptight or "needs to get laid." But thank you for the analyses, Psychiatry resident PGY-0.

Besides, I think you would agree with me that all the teeth gnashing in this thread is a bit much. Substitute the word "resources" for "equipment" and we would be having an entirely different conversation here.

As for commonly accepted, hardly. I like this definition of "walla" from Urban Dictionary. I could have written it myself.

 

[Nasrudin]

lol...OK, not sure what this says about my sex life, unless you are implying that this makes me uptight or "needs to get laid." But thank you for the analyses, Psychiatry resident PGY-0.

Besides, I think you would agree with me that all the teeth gnashing in this thread is a bit much. Substitute the word "resources" for "equipment" and we would be having an entirely different conversation here.

As for commonly accepted, hardly. I like this definition of "walla" from Urban Dictionary. I could have written it myself.

That is a funny word. Appreciate you adding it to my vocabulary. I'm just kidding really, but yes...it's a little uptight. Psychoanalysts make me want to vomit. I'm just chiding you because we're probably the same age and yet in our profession I would likely genuflect your presence. So it's fun to talk to you as a peer in real life in the comforts of cyberspace.

 

[Thespunger]

As for commonly accepted, hardly. I like this definition of "walla" from Urban Dictionary. I could have written it myself.

Unfortunately this definition does not apply in this situation since English is my third language. But I am generally a pretty terrible speller in all 3 languages. I had to spread my apparently not so superior intelligence too thin I guess. I'm also terrible at golf. Well back to my sad life of misspelled French words. Au revior ? Or au waa? Ow whaa? OhRuh Vwaa ? Hmm

 

[Nasrudin]

Unfortunately this definition does not apply in this situation since English is my third language. But I am generally a pretty terrible speller in all 3 languages. I had to spread my apparently not so superior intelligence too thin I guess. I'm also terrible at golf. Well back to my sad life of misspelled French words. Au revior ? Or au waa? Ow whaa? OhRuh Vwaa ? Hmm

You're overreacting in several areas of your thought in my opinion. WS said many smart people do this sloppy grammar and its a pet peeve of hers. Its the depersonalized poor use of grammar that bothers her. So don't take it personally. Your other comment about med students being necessarily spineless is also an overreaction. If you're the type to tell the aforementioned brain surgeon on the spot that they need to not talk about your patients in such a crass way I think everyone would respect you for it including the surgeon themselves most likely whether they react poorly or not.

But this is not what happens 999 out of 1000. Instead its mostly passive aggressive moral simplicity that seeks revenge for its wounded ego in a public forum while being far removed from the courage of confrontation. Distortions of the truth run rampant in such scenarios and in my opinion are not reliable.

I see the hierarchy we are immersed in as part clinical necessity but also part the accoutrement and shelter of the ego of our attendings. If you take a truly principled stance in advocating for your patients you are basically on unassailable ground. Its possible that some diabolical personality could be vengeful for your conflict with their authority but if you are diplomatic and careful you should be fine.

But other than that it is a simple fact that we pass through a thousands of miles long Silk Road. Where we are perpetually negotiating passage of ourselves and our caravan of debt through the separate fiefdoms of local chiefs and warlords until we stake our own claim somewhere down the line. A point of view not shared by our supervisors is a risk proposition. It's reality. Value assigned to the pragmatics of this as being spineless of whathaveyou is something I think is almost as ridiculous, inane, and immature as the posting of patient care business on facebook.

 

[Winged Scapula]

That is a funny word. Appreciate you adding it to my vocabulary. I'm just kidding really, but yes...it's a little uptight.

Non-orthopedic surgeons are often seen as uptight. I'm not usually but admittedly, after spending last night with a friend from college who is suffering quite a few setbacks, I found myself more stressed than usual. Besides, as you note - its just "my thing" as I enjoy language and its expression.

Psychoanalysts make me want to vomit.

Some of my best friends are analysts, including my med school roommate. Pure Freudian/Jungian analysis is interesting but, IMHO, not relevant to modern day concerns.

I'm just chiding you because we're probably the same age and yet in our profession I would likely genuflect your presence. So it's fun to talk to you as a peer in real life in the comforts of cyberspace.

Oh but you see, genuflection is something that I appreciate from anyone, without regard to age and/or gender.

I take it you are a "non-trad", or a bit older than the usual medical student? One of the reasons I also enjoy SDN is the chance to interact with students, residents and other colleagues on a more "even keel" than I would be afforded IRL.

 

[alpinism]

Besides, I think you would agree with me that all the teeth gnashing in this thread is a bit much. Substitute the word "resources" for "equipment" and we would be having an entirely different conversation here.

I prefer vegetable is a waste of equipment.

Maybe the garden was full?

 

[HopefulReapp]

I prefer vegetable is a waste of equipment.

Maybe the garden was full?

The garden is almost always full with a lack of equipment, though. One of the issues with modern medicine, I guess.


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[mvenus929]

Don't forget there is still something called freedom of speech, just happens that apparently as med students we are not allowed to have it if it would upset any attending.

Pet peeve of mine, especially considering some arguments people have been making with it in recent months... our 'Freedom of Speech' lies in the first amendment, which states that Congress shall not limit one's right to speech (verbal, written, or otherwise). That does not mean that you can go around saying whatever the heck you want, nor does it mean you are exempt from facing the consequences of your speech. So, freedom of speech really doesn't apply anywhere in the hospital.

And yes, I realize you say something to this effect regarding the attending's words, but again, pet peeve

 

[redsquareblack]

You're overreacting in several areas of your thought in my opinion. WS said many smart people do this sloppy grammar and its a pet peeve of hers. Its the depersonalized poor use of grammar that bothers her. So don't take it personally. Your other comment about med students being necessarily spineless is also an overreaction. If you're the type to tell the aforementioned brain surgeon on the spot that they need to not talk about your patients in such a crass way I think everyone would respect you for it including the surgeon themselves most likely whether they react poorly or not.

But this is not what happens 999 out of 1000. Instead its mostly passive aggressive moral simplicity that seeks revenge for its wounded ego in a public forum while being far removed from the courage of confrontation. Distortions of the truth run rampant in such scenarios and in my opinion are not reliable.

I see the hierarchy we are immersed in as part clinical necessity but also part the accoutrement and shelter of the ego of our attendings. If you take a truly principled stance in advocating for your patients you are basically on unassailable ground. Its possible that some diabolical personality could be vengeful for your conflict with their authority but if you are diplomatic and careful you should be fine.

But other than that it is a simple fact that we pass through a thousands of miles long Silk Road. Where we are perpetually negotiating passage of ourselves and our caravan of debt through the separate fiefdoms of local chiefs and warlords until we stake our own claim somewhere down the line. A point of view not shared by our supervisors is a risk proposition. It's reality. Value assigned to the pragmatics of this as being spineless of whathaveyou is something I think is almost as ridiculous, inane, and immature as the posting of patient care business on facebook.

Dude. Fewer syllables. Fewer words. Please. I beg you.

 

[evilbooyaa]

Dude. Fewer syllables. Fewer words. Please. I beg you.

Lol. Yeah he(?) is a little verbose, but you can kind of skim through to get the general point he's making.

That being said, I did have to go google genuflect since it seemed a pretty core part of that one sentence. And now knowing that it essentially means 'Tebowing', I am slightly annoyed that he missed an opportunity to tell an attending that he would Tebow in front of her.

 

[neusu]

Saying you treated a gunshot wound without any other identifiable information is NOT the same as saying you saw a middle aged female at St. Elsewhere for a stroke on 1/20 at 11 p.m. Apples and oranges. HIPPA is pretty explicit in this.

Directly stating you treated a gunshot wound, within the immediate timeframe of the gunshot wound, is a HIPAA (not sure what HIPPA is) violation. It is an easily identifiable medical event because of the severity wherein anyone in the public could lookup the circumstances and be able to identify the patient based on your comment.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

Directly stating you treated a gunshot wound, within the immediate timeframe of the gunshot wound, is a HIPAA (not sure what HIPPA is) violation. It is an easily identifiable medical event because of the severity wherein anyone in the public could lookup the circumstances and be able to identify the patient based on your comment.

Only if you live in a city where only one person is shot that night. Oh, and HIPPA is a typo. But you knew that.

 

[neusu]

Only if you live in a city where only one person is shot that night. Oh, and HIPPA is a typo. But you knew that.

Even if there are multiple gunshot wounds within the same night, it would have to be a massacre to not fall under HIPAA. The news will report the name, age, sex, color, and often address for everyone involved.

And yes, while it may be a typo, it represents a misunderstanding of both the initial acronym, "Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act," as well as the severity a response violation entails.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

Even if there are multiple gunshot wounds within the same night, it would have to be a massacre to not fall under HIPAA. The news will report the name, age, sex, color, and often address for everyone involved.

I maintain it depends on the city since media don't report every gunshot in every city. If you're in a town where the media reports on every shooting, then maybe. But if the NYC press, for example, reported every shooting, they'd never report on anything else.

 

[neusu]

I maintain it depends on the city since media don't report every gunshot in every city. If you're in a town where the media reports on every shooting, then maybe. But if the NYC press, for example, reported every shooting, they'd never report on anything else.

Every shooting is reported. While it may not be the top story, it certainly is in the news. Interestingly, your example of NYC, while I suspect you don't live there, so you wouldn't likely know, is not even at the top of the list for gun violence.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Every shooting is reported. While it may not be the top story, it certainly is in the news. Interestingly, your example of NYC, while I suspect you don't live there, so you wouldn't likely know, is not even at the top of the list for gun violence.

Agreed. New York City isn't even in the top 10 of US cities with gun violence. Something about unemployment and bad weather tend to raise the rates. Add our liberal gun laws here in Arizona and we have nearly 3 times the rate of New York City. Las Vegas is even higher.

 

[jakeislove]

FWIW,

I don't know if medical students viscerally understand how much drama HIPAA violations cause. I'm always finding (and disposing of) materials people leave behind with information like name, account #, MR #, diagnosis, etc...

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

FWIW,

I don't know if medical students viscerally understand how much drama HIPAA violations cause. I'm always finding (and disposing of) materials people leave behind with information like name, account #, MR #, diagnosis, etc...

Yup. Even seemingly trivial things.

I got called into the office of clinical affairs because "I" had left a patient list sitting out in the cafeteria that someone turned into security. Turns out it was one of my med students who had left it there, but because I was the intern who printed the lists for our whole team that morning, my name was plastered on the top of every copy.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

Every shooting is reported. While it may not be the top story, it certainly is in the news. Interestingly, your example of NYC, while I suspect you don't live there, so you wouldn't likely know, is not even at the top of the list for gun violence.[/qquote]

No one said it was at the top of the list for gun violence. That wasn't the point. The point was that there are a lot of shootings in NYC and with all the other news there, the media doesn't report on every single one.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

No one said it was at the top of the list for gun violence. That wasn't the point. The point was that there are a lot of shootings in NYC and with all the other news there, the media doesn't report on every single one.

 

[evilbooyaa]

No one said it was at the top of the list for gun violence. That wasn't the point. The point was that there are a lot of shootings in NYC and with all the other news there, the media doesn't report on every single one.

But that's what neusu is saying. Every shooting IS reported. Just because the media doesn't report it doesn't mean it's not in police record. It's not like someone gets shot and the police just go, "LOL guess **** happens, moving on".

 

[jakeislove]

Yup. Even seemingly trivial things.

I got called into the office of clinical affairs because "I" had left a patient list sitting out in the cafeteria that someone turned into security. Turns out it was one of my med students who had left it there, but because I was the intern who printed the lists for our whole team that morning, my name was plastered on the top of every copy.

Ouch!

Students probably thought it was no big deal and you were a jerk for even mentioning it after-the-fact, LOL!

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

But that's what neusu is saying. Every shooting IS reported. Just because the media doesn't report it doesn't mean it's not in police record. It's not like someone gets shot and the police just go, "LOL guess **** happens, moving on".

Neusu said the media reports every one. I agree that every one is obviously reported on a police blotter.

 

[neusu]

Neusu said the media reports every one. I agree that every one is obviously reported on a police blotter.

So.. You agree you're committing a HIPPA (ha, HIPAA) violation by facebook posting "zOMG, I just scrubbed on a GSW-head! lolz! #gswhead #universityhospital #patientnamedead"

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

So.. You agree you're committing a HIPPA (ha, HIPAA) violation by facebook posting "zOMG, I just scrubbed on a GSW-head! lolz! #gswhead #universityhospital #patientnamedead"

You're obnoxious. If someone went so far as to post their hospital, city, and give a location of the shot itself, then yes, it's a HIPPA (just for you) violation. What I was saying is that merely posting that you had a gunshot patient is not a violation as that doesn't tell anyone the identity of your patient without other necessary details.

 

[neusu]

You're obnoxious. If someone went so far as to post their hospital, city, and give a location of the shot itself, then yes, it's a HIPPA (just for you) violation. What I was saying is that merely posting that you had a gunshot patient is not a violation as that doesn't tell anyone the identity of your patient without other necessary details.

Thank you

First and foremost. HIPAA is a serious issue, I think many of you undergraduates, nursing, and medical students do not fully comprehend how serious it is. It will fully end your career before it starts, and land you in prison.

Second. Any identifiable information is covered. As I indicated, a GSW is a rare event, even in NYC, even in Chicago, even in Detroit or New Orleans. All of them are reported in the news, regardless if it's the top story on the 6'Oclock news or in the police blatter. Nonetheless, someone who may have been involved in the incdent can look up or ask for their status at your hospital. You have committed a HIPAA violation.

DO NOT POST ANYTHING SPECIFIC ABOUT YOUR PATIENTS.

 

[mcloaf]

You're obnoxious. If someone went so far as to post their hospital, city, and give a location of the shot itself, then yes, it's a HIPPA (just for you) violation. What I was saying is that merely posting that you had a gunshot patient is not a violation as that doesn't tell anyone the identity of your patient without other necessary details.

His posts in this thread have been much more informative and helpful than your contributions, chill.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

His posts in this thread have been much more informative and helpful than your contributions, chill.

I'm plenty "chill"ed already, thanks.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

Thank you

First and foremost. HIPAA is a serious issue, I think many of you undergraduates, nursing, and medical students do not fully comprehend how serious it is. It will fully end your career before it starts, and land you in prison.

Second. Any identifiable information is covered. As I indicated, a GSW is a rare event, even in NYC, even in Chicago, even in Detroit or New Orleans. All of them are reported in the news, regardless if it's the top story on the 6'Oclock news or in the police blatter. Nonetheless, someone who may have been involved in the incdent can look up or ask for their status at your hospital. You have committed a HIPAA violation.

DO NOT POST ANYTHING SPECIFIC ABOUT YOUR PATIENTS.

The police blotter is not on the news. So no, they are not all reported in the news.

 

[DreDre31]

It makes you tougher and more cynical. You should prepare yourself now for the many differences of opinions you'll come in contact with. If I were you, I'd learn to choose my battles well because you have everything to lose while many of the doctors, especially the ones grading you have little to lose. Study hard, make good decisions, learn from your mistakes and learn to save face, and lots of good fortune to you because you're becoming medical schools b@%#h! You've been warned!!!

Sent from my RM-877_nam_att_205 using Tapatalk

 

[VisionaryTics]

.

 

[alpinism]

There aren't enough hours in the day to report every shooting that occurs in cities like Chicago, Detroit, or New Orleans…

 

[TooMuchResearch]

There aren't enough hours in the day to report every shooting that occurs in cities like Chicago, Detroit, or New Orleans…

Regardless, those interested in posting about their interesting medical experiences in real time online may have medicine confused with playing a doctor on tv. Perhaps Grey's Anatomy is hiring? Keep your experiences off the internet and avoid getting kicked out of school/failing a course/getting some major red flaggage added to the MSPE.

 

[evilbooyaa]

You're obnoxious. If someone went so far as to post their hospital, city, and give a location of the shot itself, then yes, it's a HIPPA (just for you) violation. What I was saying is that merely posting that you had a gunshot patient is not a violation as that doesn't tell anyone the identity of your patient without other necessary details.

You can argue semantics here all you want, but if you post about a GSW while it's going on, or reference a specific time on FB, is there a possibility it could come back to bite you? If the answer is not 100% no, then is it really worth it to post it in the first place?

 

[alpinism]

Regardless, those interested in posting about their interesting medical experiences in real time online may have medicine confused with playing a doctor on tv. Perhaps Grey's Anatomy is hiring? Keep your experiences off the internet and avoid getting kicked out of school/failing a course/getting some major red flaggage added to the MSPE.

Agreed. It's not worth the risk.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

You can argue semantics here all you want, but if you post about a GSW while it's going on, or reference a specific time on FB, is there a possibility it could come back to bite you? If the answer is not 100% no, then is it really worth it to post it in the first place?

First of all, i have never done anyy such thing and never advocated for doing it. That's not semantics, that's a fact. I don't even have a FB account and find it obnoxious that people actually post this stuff online. That said, my argument was simply that I don't believe commenting in vague terms about having a gun shot patient is a violation of federal law. The OP's post IS a violation and I never said otherwise, because she gave more specific information. I never defended her or her actions.

 

[Kahreek]

this is an example when black humour get's in the way.
"There is nothing neurosurgery can do to the benefit of your patient" would have been a better line.
Still popularizing and posting it on the facebook was a stupid move, I get the impression that OP case does not know yet how a hospital works.

 

[redsquareblack]

Thank you

First and foremost. HIPAA is a serious issue, I think many of you undergraduates, nursing, and medical students do not fully comprehend how serious it is. It will fully end your career before it starts, and land you in prison.

Second. Any identifiable information is covered. As I indicated, a GSW is a rare event, even in NYC, even in Chicago, even in Detroit or New Orleans. All of them are reported in the news, regardless if it's the top story on the 6'Oclock news or in the police blatter. Nonetheless, someone who may have been involved in the incdent can look up or ask for their status at your hospital. You have committed a HIPAA violation.

DO NOT POST ANYTHING SPECIFIC ABOUT YOUR PATIENTS.

No, not any identifiable information. Specific kinds of information are covered. And I think we've entered a gray area when we start to hold individuals accountable for the actions of other agents (i.e., is an individual violating the HIPAA privacy law just because news agencies have released information? I don't know, and I suspect neither do you. What is prudent is not the same as what is legal). A more important question is what the hospital's policy regarding health information is, because that is the policy that is more likely to get you terminated. Some things that wouldn't otherwise be considered a violation of HIPAA are nevertheless grounds for termination according to a given hospital's policy.

Also, you don't have to be involved in an incident to ask about a patient's status. As long as you know a patient by name, you can enquire about his or her overall status (stable, serious, critical, etc.).

More than that, though, not all violations are created equal. A medical student who writes "Wow! Treated a GSW today!" is not going to jail. Sorry, it just ain't happening. At best, the student gets slapped with a $100 fine, the and then the medical school will have to determine how to proceed. I agree that such a post is unwise, and may get a student in some hot water at his or her medical school/hospital, and, hell, may even be a HIPAA violation in the narrowest interpretation of the privacy law.

Either way, enthusiasm about the stuff you're doing in medical school is great. Just don't post about it on facebook.

 

[evilbooyaa]

No, not any identifiable information. Specific kinds of information are covered. And I think we've entered a gray area when we start to hold individuals accountable for the actions of other agents (i.e., is an individual violating the HIPAA privacy law just because news agencies have released information? I don't know, and I suspect neither do you. What is prudent is not the same as what is legal). A more important question is what the hospital's policy regarding health information is, because that is the policy that is more likely to get you terminated. Some things that wouldn't otherwise be considered a violation of HIPAA are nevertheless grounds for termination according to a given hospital's policy.

Also, you don't have to be involved in an incident to ask about a patient's status. As long as you know a patient by name, you can enquire about his or her overall status (stable, serious, critical, etc.).

More than that, though, not all violations are created equal. A medical student who writes "Wow! Treated a GSW today!" is not going to jail. Sorry, it just ain't happening. At best, the student gets slapped with a $100 fine, the and then the medical school will have to determine how to proceed. I agree that such a post is unwise, and may get a student in some hot water at his or her medical school/hospital, and, hell, may even be a HIPAA violation in the narrowest interpretation of the privacy law.

Either way, enthusiasm about the stuff you're doing in medical school is great. Just don't post about it on facebook.

Fully agree with the two bolded points. Really all that matters in the long-run.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Either way, enthusiasm about the stuff you're doing in medical school is great. Just don't post about it on facebook.

Yup. Most AMCs have a formal social media policy in place these days. Students would be wise to familiarize themselves with it. At my institution for instance, if we identify ourselves as a hospital employee on FB, we are supposed to put a disclaimer in our profile that our opinions are ours alone and do not represent the hospital, and we are not supposed to put any work-related content on FB.

As a result I've chosen to not identify my hospital employment on there. But nonetheless I still keep work stuff off it.

 

[DermViser]

Yup. Even seemingly trivial things.

I got called into the office of clinical affairs because "I" had left a patient list sitting out in the cafeteria that someone turned into security. Turns out it was one of my med students who had left it there, but because I was the intern who printed the lists for our whole team that morning, my name was plastered on the top of every copy.

That would completely deserve a medical student getting reamed. Medical students don't face consequences for HIPAA violations.

 

[HopefulReapp]

Yup. Most AMCs have a formal social media policy in place these days. Students would be wise to familiarize themselves with it. At my institution for instance, if we identify ourselves as a hospital employee on FB, we are supposed to put a disclaimer in our profile that our opinions are ours alone and do not represent the hospital, and we are not supposed to put any work-related content on FB.

As a result I've chosen to not identify my hospital employment on there. But nonetheless I still keep work stuff off it.

An undergrad buddy of mine complains almost daily on his facebook about his surgery rotation and yea it comes off pretty unprofessional. I think the best thing is not to post about it. On the other side of the spectrum, my patient care job has left me with some pretty ridiculous stories almost every night but I still wouldn't post about it on facebook.

Regarding the patient sheet, that definitely stinks. I'm very happy that the hospital I work at has HIPAA bins all over to throw identifying information in so there is less of a chance to leave it around.