Pass/fail vs letter grade medical schools

[ndi_amaka]

In deciding what medical school to go to, I must put into consideration the grading system. What are the advantages & disadvatages of going to a honors/pass/fail school versus an A-F med school ot her than the differences in stress level??

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[lane]

im not an expert at all, but here's what i would think:

A-F system more accurately shows your performance in your classes, so it can help you if you make good grades and you're trying to get into a good residency program. conversely, if you don't do well it can hurt your chances.

Pass/Fail simply shows that you completed your classes, so residency programs only have your school's reputation, your USMLE scores, and any recommendations to go by when considering you. i would guess that a person with good grades from an A-F school would have an advantage, but that's purely speculation

just my $0.02

 

[nuclearrabbit77]

Pass/fail = 3rd year intense competition

Grades = three years of intense competition

Honors/pass/fail= refer to Grades.

i left out fourth year for good reason. it's the most expensive vacation you'll ever have.

 

[HollyJ]

When you're considering grading systems, make sure that the pass/fail systems are really pass/fail, rather than the honors/high pass/pass/marginal pass/fail. That sure looks like A/B/C/D/F to me, but a lot of schools are making big noise about it.

 

[Rendar5]

pass/fail = more cooperative learning, less competition, and a dependance on written evaluations and school prestige for residencies.

 

[MedicationWorks]

Pass/fail doesn't really exist. HollyJ is right. It's usually honors/high pass/pass/conditional pass/fail. With 60% of students at pass, 20% with high pass, and 10% honors. (remaining 10% conditional or fail)

 

[Bones2008]

Umm, pass/fail does "really exist." Check out the MSAR.

 

[rgporter]

Originally posted by MedicationWorks
Pass/fail doesn't really exist. HollyJ is right. It's usually honors/high pass/pass/conditional pass/fail. With 60% of students at pass, 20% with high pass, and 10% honors. (remaining 10% conditional or fail)

Yeah, but at some schools (OSU, possibly others) only the dean has access to what kind of pass or fail was given. To the rest of the world it is truly pass/fail.

 

[Cerberus]

Originally posted by MedicationWorks
Pass/fail doesn't really exist. HollyJ is right. It's usually honors/high pass/pass/conditional pass/fail. With 60% of students at pass, 20% with high pass, and 10% honors. (remaining 10% conditional or fail)

UofM is pass/fail

 

[jlee9531]

i do believe ucd, msu creighton are all H/P/F

for some of the other schools that have P/F i hear that they all do keep some kind of record of your scores to let residency programs know how strong that P was or how weak, which makes sense to me. But they dont tell your score to the students which would defeat the purpose of having P/F system.

 

[nuclearrabbit77]

let's all clarify this P/F stuff.

There are schools that are Pass/Fail, for a variable number of years. I don't know any respectable place that has Pass/Fail for clerkship years. Several schools just have Pass/Fail for the first year, some other, the first and second years. Indeed, programs track the progress of their students, and rumors go around about how you can score AOA points in the first two years even though it's technically P/F. I've seen a dean's letter from at least my institution, and it mentioned NOTHING about the first two years in terms of internal ranking.

If the dean's letter does include your class ranking from the first two years, even if it is a Pass/Fail institution, then it completely defeats the purpose of being Pass/Fail to begin with and you might as well go to a school that has grades. At least you won't have the pretense that you aren't being ranked. It's something that you should ask in your interviews, if you are that concerned.
If it's Pass/Fail, and there's no mention of pre-clinical scores in the dean's letter, than effectively, you all you REALLY have to worry about, is learning what you need to do well on the step 1.

Since there is such variability in how schools grade their first two years, this has caused a gravitation towards using USMLE step 1 scores as a criterion for filtering out students for competitive residency programs. Just as you apply to medical school now, you are realizing that GPA can be quite variable depending on what type of institution or discipline you are studying. (i.e. Crap University, Psych Major vs. MIT Nuclear Engineering). Hence, schools rely on MCAT's, quite a bit. This concept is even more accentuated in medical school, because you don't even have GPA's in the first place. (there are exceptions).

Pick your school wisely, and realize that no matter what people say, competition is intense, EVEN at pass/fail schools. It's a darwinian process, and those that got this far tend to be self-motivated, intelligent, and competitive.

I enjoy Pass/Fail, and i'm sure many others out there do as well.
If you go to a graded institution and are getting all Honors, all the power to you. I tip my hat.

 

[jwin]

avoid graded systems if at all possible. all you will end up doing is obsessing about the minutia that are quite idiosyncratic to a particular lecturer in order to try to score a few extra points for that H. the studying time to grade received curve is not linear. it is exponential to say the least. 10 hours for pass, 20 for high pass, 40 for honors is the kind of phenomena you will observe.

yes maybe you learn better for boards, but i doubt it. you are pounding out the details that the boards don't cover anyway. you have to study a lot for the boards regardless of whether or not you honored every class so i dont think this is a real benefit to graded classes.

pass/fail for any number of years offered would be well worth it in my opinion.

 

[calebho501]

Actually to add to the discussion:

UCLA has straight Pass/Fail system (Edit: For the first two years)

Emory is letter-graded, but the students told me that the grades are not awarded based on a curve. In many classes, the average is above 90%, meaning about half of the people get A's. As for the possibility of inflated-grade, the students told me not to worry.

 

[UCSBMed1]

Originally posted by jlee9531
i do believe ucd, msu creighton are all H/P/F

for some of the other schools that have P/F i hear that they all do keep some kind of record of your scores to let residency programs know how strong that P was or how weak, which makes sense to me. But they dont tell your score to the students which would defeat the purpose of having P/F system.

I don't know about MSU or Creighton, but UC Davis is strictly Pass/Fail in the first two years. There are no secret rankings.

The last two years are H/P/F, just like many other schools.

 

[Jet915]

I think I can add some insight about pass/fail. I go to Creighton and the Dean of student affairs told us that even though we are H/P/F, our grades and ranks are still recorded for all classes (even for classes that are just pass/fail with no honors). This is because the AAMC has adopted a policy that requires by 2006 that all residency letters must include in them pie charts or graphs that indicate where you placed in every class and then a system where they tell the residency director if you are "highly recommended", "recommended" or "not recommended." He said it kinda sucked cause he thought it would hurt the noncompetitive atmosphere in med school but the AAMC will require that all medical schools do it (because residency directors have been clamoring for it). So even if your school is just pass/fail, there is still some type of internal ranking that exists regardless.

Jetson

 

[mmz6]

is there anything about that new policy on the aamc website?

mmz6

 

[Gleevec]

Originally posted by Jet915
I think I can add some insight about pass/fail. I go to Creighton and the Dean of student affairs told us that even though we are H/P/F, our grades and ranks are still recorded for all classes (even for classes that are just pass/fail with no honors). This is because the AAMC has adopted a policy that requires by 2006 that all residency letters must include in them pie charts or graphs that indicate where you placed in every class and then a system where they tell the residency director if you are "highly recommended", "recommended" or "not recommended." He said it kinda sucked cause he thought it would hurt the noncompetitive atmosphere in med school but the AAMC will require that all medical schools do it (because residency directors have been clamoring for it). So even if your school is just pass/fail, there is still some type of internal ranking that exists regardless.

Jetson

Thats extremely interesting, thanks for the info. Anyone else heard anything regarding this?

 

[Sophie]

Off of AAMC, the schools that are Pass/Fail (2 Intervals) for Required Basic Science classes:

Albert Einstein College of Medicine of Yeshiva University 2 Intervals

Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine 2 Intervals

David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA 2 Intervals

Duke University School of Medicine 2 Intervals

Harvard Medical School 2 Intervals

Keck School of Medicine of the University of Southern California 2 Intervals

Loma Linda University School of Medicine 2 Intervals

McGill University Faculty of Medicine 2 Intervals

Medical College of Georgia School of Medicine 2 Intervals

Memorial University of Newfoundland 2 Intervals

Mercer University School of Medicine 2 Intervals

Morehouse School of Medicine 2 Intervals

Mount Sinai School of Medicine of New York University 2 Intervals

New York University School of Medicine 2 Intervals

Northwestern University, Feinberg School of Medicine 2 Intervals

Ohio State University College of Medicine and Public Health 2 Intervals

Southern Illinois University School of Medicine 2 Intervals

Stanford University School of Medicine 2 Intervals

Universidad Central del Caribe School of Medicine 2 Intervals

University of Calgary Faculty of Medicine 2 Intervals

University of California, Davis, School of Medicine 2 Intervals

University of California, San Francisco, School of Medicine 2 Intervals

University of Chicago Division of the Biological Sciences The Pritzker School of Medicine 2 Intervals

University of Connecticut School of Medicine 2 Intervals

University of Hawaii John A. Burns School of Medicine 2 Intervals

University of Kentucky College of Medicine 2 Intervals

University of Manitoba Faculty of Medicine 2 Intervals

University of Massachusetts Medical School 2 Intervals

University of Michigan Medical School 2 Intervals

University of Minnesota Medical School - Twin Cities 2 Intervals

University of Missouri-Columbia School of Medicine 2 Intervals

University of Rochester School of Medicine and Dentistry 2 Intervals

University of Saskatchewan College of Medicine 2 Intervals

University of Utah School of Medicine 2 Intervals

University of Washington School of Medicine 2 Intervals

Washington University in St. Louis School of Medicine 2 Intervals

Wayne State University School of Medicine 2 Intervals

Wright State University School of Medicine 2 Intervals

Yale University School of Medicine 2 Intervals

 

[Sophie]

Taking what Jet said into consideration, is there really any point to favor schools with a P/F system over those with a letter grading system?

 

[Gleevec]

Wow, a lot of good schools have P/F for the first two years. Then again, Ive interviewed at some of these places, and students have told me that they do keep tabs of your actual grades so the deans know where you stand when they write LoRs.

So P/F is in many cases deceptive.

 

[Dr. Lector]

At my school they keep on telling me we have no internal ranking just P/F for the first 2 years.

 

[UCSBMed1]

Originally posted by Jet915
I think I can add some insight about pass/fail. I go to Creighton and the Dean of student affairs told us that even though we are H/P/F, our grades and ranks are still recorded for all classes (even for classes that are just pass/fail with no honors). This is because the AAMC has adopted a policy that requires by 2006 that all residency letters must include in them pie charts or graphs that indicate where you placed in every class and then a system where they tell the residency director if you are "highly recommended", "recommended" or "not recommended." He said it kinda sucked cause he thought it would hurt the noncompetitive atmosphere in med school but the AAMC will require that all medical schools do it (because residency directors have been clamoring for it). So even if your school is just pass/fail, there is still some type of internal ranking that exists regardless.

Jetson

That is not true for all schools. I know at my school and at UCSF, there are no internal rankings.

Our Vice-Dean made it quite clear to us that if it says P, it is a P. There are no secret files somewhere with how you scored on that anatomy midterm first year. None.

Your school might have these, but not all schools do.

 

[Gleevec]

Originally posted by UCSBPre-Med1
That is not true for all schools. I know at my school and at UCSF, there are no internal rankings.

Our Vice-Dean made it quite clear to us that if it says P, it is a P. There are no secret files somewhere with how you scored on that anatomy midterm first year. None.

Your school might have these, but not all schools do.

Well, if the AAMC demands internal rankings by 2006, they might not be there now, but they will be soon. I guess that means the entering class of 2003 is the first that is to be recorded supposedly?

 

[indiamacbean]

Yale is straight pass/fail with no record kept of your grades which I'm pretty sure applies to your clinical years as well. In fact it used to be that all exams were optional and now I think they have a pass now/pass later system. they don't seem to have trouble getting people into good residencies.

 

[Bones2008]

Originally posted by indiamacbean
In fact it used to be that all exams were optional

So people just paid their tuition and collected their M.D. four years later. Doubt it.

 

[GoodMonkey]

Originally posted by Bones2008
So people just paid their tuition and collected their M.D. four years later. Doubt it.

to pass overall you have to pass the boards. and you get written evals for all your clinical rotations.
*shrug* at least that's what they told me when i was there last year.

 

[Gleevec]

Originally posted by indiamacbean
Yale is straight pass/fail with no record kept of your grades which I'm pretty sure applies to your clinical years as well. In fact it used to be that all exams were optional and now I think they have a pass now/pass later system. they don't seem to have trouble getting people into good residencies.

Pass/fail for clinicals? Im sure they must keep some kind of subjective record/ranking of how well students do in the wards. Otherwise the only way to distinguish between students is USMLEs.

Id be interested to see how Yale's board scores compare with everyone elses. In fact, I would be equally interested to see how the board scores of pass/fail schools relates to those of other schools. Too bad such data is probably unavailable to the general public.

 

[nuclearrabbit77]

Well my friend at Yale says they DO have h/p/f clerkship years. don't know where you got your info from.....

 

[indiamacbean]

From their website:
Students evaluate themselves through optional, anonymous examinations. Their performance is assessed by the faculty through participation in seminars, by an anonymous (but coded) qualifying examination at the end of each course, by performance on clinical clerkships, and by passing of the United States Medical Licensing Examinations (USMLE).

In the first two years, there are no grades and there is no class ranking.

So I guess it is graded h/p/f during clinical years. And Bones2008 if you go to interview, iask about the old Yale sytem, there used to be no qualifying exams at the ends of the blocks but I think that this was leading to a pretty high Step1 fail rate in the 80s so they instituted the qualifying exams. Pretty good system now. too bad Yale's in New Haven.

--PittMed2007--

 

[KarateGirl]

Originally posted by Jet915
I think I can add some insight about pass/fail. I go to Creighton and the Dean of student affairs told us that even though we are H/P/F, our grades and ranks are still recorded for all classes (even for classes that are just pass/fail with no honors). This is because the AAMC has adopted a policy that requires by 2006 that all residency letters must include in them pie charts or graphs that indicate where you placed in every class and then a system where they tell the residency director if you are "highly recommended", "recommended" or "not recommended." He said it kinda sucked cause he thought it would hurt the noncompetitive atmosphere in med school but the AAMC will require that all medical schools do it (because residency directors have been clamoring for it). So even if your school is just pass/fail, there is still some type of internal ranking that exists regardless.

Jetson

I really hope this isn't the case. I will definitely ask the schools about it if/when I interview.

It seems that the Yale system wouldn't be able to survive under the new policy. I have a hard time believing that they would just abandon a system that supposedly sets them apart without protest.

From the research I've done, almost all schools have a grading system for the clinical years. Why can't they develop the requisite pie chart from that?

 

[nuclearrabbit77]

the most unique thing about yale is that they have a research thesis you are supposed to do before you graduate.
other schools have versions of this as well,...but most schools don't MAKE you do research if you don't want to.

 

[KarateGirl]

I've never heard of any other school giving anonymous exams.

 

[AJM]

Originally posted by nuclearrabbit77
There are schools that are Pass/Fail, for a variable number of years. I don't know any respectable place that has Pass/Fail for clerkship years.

Stanford is straight pass/fail during all years, including the clinical years. Now they do also get written evaluations from their clerkships that go in the Dean's letter, but just about every other school does written evaluations as well.

Just as a general point, any school that says that they do not rank their students is pretty much lying to you. Sure, they may not rank students in the preclinical years, but by the time students are applying to residencies, they have some semblance of ranking, between such things as nominating students to AOA and breaking students into tiers for their Dean's letter. Even Stanford, who used to make a point of not having any ranking whatsoever by not breaking students into tiers and not participating in AOA, has bowed to the pressure of residency program directors who felt that they need to be able to better distinguish between applicants. Now they have a three-tiered system of ranking students based on clerkship evals and extracurricular activities/research.