PA's in the Military

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AFSmiley

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I'm a lowly undergrad, but does anyone think using more PA's in the military is a possible answer to a lot of the issues brought up in this forum?
-GMO's: PA's could probably do an adequate job of taking care of most cases, and it would be a better match for the skills their tought.
-Understaffed Primary Care: It wouldn't help with lower level staff like tech's, nurses, etc, but atleast more people who are trained to make a diagnosis can see patients.
-Financial Issues: You don't have to pay a PA as much as a Residency trained Physician, and the education process simply isn't as long. From what I can tell, there is no PA HPSP program out there, but it doesn't really sound improssible, the Army has one for Nurse Anesthesia: If most PA schools last around two and half years, they'd have to sign the minimum for three years of Active duty, and I bet the pay would be competitive with what starting PA's make in the civilian world

This was all just thought up on a whim tonight as I try to study, and I had to throw it out there so I could focus. What do you guys think?

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There are PA's in the military already. There are also nurse practioners.

JMPeffer said:
I'm a lowly undergrad, but does anyone think using more PA's in the military is a possible answer to a lot of the issues brought up in this forum?
-GMO's: PA's could probably do an adequate job of taking care of most cases, and it would be a better match for the skills their tought.
-Understaffed Primary Care: It wouldn't help with lower level staff like tech's, nurses, etc, but atleast more people who are trained to make a diagnosis can see patients.
-Financial Issues: You don't have to pay a PA as much as a Residency trained Physician, and the education process simply isn't as long. From what I can tell, there is no PA HPSP program out there, but it doesn't really sound improssible, the Army has one for Nurse Anesthesia: If most PA schools last around two and half years, they'd have to sign the minimum for three years of Active duty, and I bet the pay would be competitive with what starting PA's make in the civilian world

This was all just thought up on a whim tonight as I try to study, and I had to throw it out there so I could focus. What do you guys think?
 
Dude...!!!
Every federal loan repayment program for MD/DOs are available to PAs. (HPSP, IHS, PHS, etc)
PAs have been in the military since the 70s...
There were 3 military PA schools (Army, Navy, Airforce)... they combined to make the IPAP at FT. Sam in Texas. There are/were a lot of PAs but never enough! The "reduction of forces" over the years has also taken it's toll on the numbers of PAs in the service. They were warrant officers up until ~1993... then they were all converted to officers. A person use to have to be in a medical job to attend the Military PA program, and somehow complete the prerequisites while doing your job while on active duty... to apply (this was somewhat unfair to "combat Medics" because their Meddac bretheren that worked in hospitals and clinics could rely on a set schedule and could therefore go to school. As a "line medic" it was virtually impossible to complete classes from a fighting position in the middle of the desert, or snow!). Now the programs accept applicants from ALL military fields. Upon completion of the program... a Masters Degree is granted.

The problem is that...

PAs are needed at the battalion aid station level... and there are just to many battalion aid stations. (think 1 MD/DO or PA for EVERY 500 people in the Iraq combat zone alone... not Afganistan and not including the rest of the military in all the other countries! 300 deployable MD/DOs or PAs/year for Iraq. 1200 MD/DOs or PAs in a 4 year conflict in Iraq if you want to minimize "combat" tours to 1 year!)

There aren't enough MD/DOs or PAs to go around!

The IPAP accepts ~ 60 students a year but due to attrition... they can't keep up with the current need.
If 15% of the in-coming class flunk out... and 20% of the graduates are females... there's not many left for "the line."

:idea: A Solution:

The Army recently started actively recruiting civilian PAs and increased the IPAP class size and enlistment bonus... as an attempt to get more... still not enough! (especially if we are going to Iran next!!! :scared: )

Several weeks ago...

While having a conversation with the Interservice PA program's commanding officer... I suggested:

AMEDD create a Civilian PA Indoctrination Package.

Cat. I - Civilian PA with Masters and > 3 years practice experience
(BCT, OBC, 1 month FP clinical for skill validation, CCCC, 0-3, 2 year commitment in "line unit", sign on bonus, can re-up after 2 years for Flt Surgeon, Residencies, Jump School, Ranger School, etc.)
Cat. II - Civilian PA with Masters and < 3 years practice experience
(BCT, OBC, 1 month FP clinical for skill validation, CCCC, 0-2, 2 year commitment in "line unit", sign on bonus, can re-up after 2 years for Flt Surgeon, Residencies, Jump School, Ranger School, etc.)

Cat. III - Civilian PA with Bachelors and > 3 years practice experience
(BCT, OBC, 1 month FP clinical for skill validation, CCCC, 0-2, 3 year commitment in "line unit", sign on bonus, will get Masters during "indoc," can re-up after 3 years for Flt Surgeon, Residencies, Jump School, Ranger School, etc.)

Cat. IV - Civilian PA with Bachelors with < 3 years practice experience
(BCT, OBC, 1 month FP clinical for skill validation, CCCC, 0-1, 3 year commitment in "line unit", sign on bonus, will get Masters during "indoc," can re-up after 3 years for Flt Surgeon, Residencies, Jump School, Ranger School, etc.)

Cat. V - Civilian PA with Extensive College, a Cerificate, and PA license with > 3 years practice experience (BCT, OBC, 1 month FP clinical for skill validation, CCCC, 0-2, 4 year commitment, 2 years in "line unit", sign on bonus, will get Masters during "indoc," can re-up after 4 years for Flt Surgeon, Residencies, Jump School, Ranger School, etc.)
Cat. VI - Civilian PA with Extensive College, a Cerificate, and PA license with < 3 years practice experience (BCT, OBC, 1 month FP clinical for skill validation, CCCC, 0-1, 4 year commitment, 2 years in "line unit", sign on bonus, will get Masters during "indoc," can re-up after 4 years for Flt Surgeon, Residencies, Jump School, Ranger School etc.)

ALL PAs would go to: OBC, 1 month FP clinical for skill validation, CCCC, complete the UNMC curricula for a Masters in PA Studies concentrated in "Rural Healthcare"... then a "Line Unit" BAS.

Prior service Civilian PAs would go to WTC (4 weeks) prior to OBC.
Non Prior service Civilian PAs would go to BCT (8weeks) prior to OBC.

"Constructive Credit" will be awarded for previous civilian and military experience.(see above)

Every 6 months experienced PAs would be going to "the line." AFTER going to a Military FP/TMC for a month to practice... :thumbup:

I think this would help! (~20 PAs/year)

And... Our men & women in uniform will be afforded the healthcare they deserve!

Just Thoughts based upon experience!

DocNusum
 
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JMPeffer said:
I'm a lowly undergrad, but does anyone think using more PA's in the military is a possible answer to a lot of the issues brought up in this forum?
-GMO's: PA's could probably do an adequate job of taking care of most cases, and it would be a better match for the skills their tought.
-Understaffed Primary Care: It wouldn't help with lower level staff like tech's, nurses, etc, but atleast more people who are trained to make a diagnosis can see patients.
-Financial Issues: You don't have to pay a PA as much as a Residency trained Physician, and the education process simply isn't as long. From what I can tell, there is no PA HPSP program out there, but it doesn't really sound improssible, the Army has one for Nurse Anesthesia: If most PA schools last around two and half years, they'd have to sign the minimum for three years of Active duty, and I bet the pay would be competitive with what starting PA's make in the civilian world

This was all just thought up on a whim tonight as I try to study, and I had to throw it out there so I could focus. What do you guys think?

more of PAs and docs would help; but you need the "right" people in the "right" place. You do NOT need a brand new PA functioning as a solo practitioner seeing internal med patients like we had at my last base.

financially, what you stated above would save money, but in the wrong situation, you LOSE money if you have inexperienced PAs ordring more MRIs and lab tests that a more seasoned doc or PA would NOT order, not to mention, the more experienced providers can give better and faster care (usually).

As is the typical answer to military medicine; there are solutions, just that the military (medicine) lately seems to have a knack for being able to ruin just about any good idea.
 
USAFdoc said:
more of PAs and docs would help; but you need the "right" people in the "right" place. You do NOT need a brand new PA functioning as a solo practitioner seeing internal med patients like we had at my last base.

financially, what you stated above would save money, but in the wrong situation, you LOSE money if you have inexperienced PAs ordring more MRIs and lab tests that a more seasoned doc or PA would NOT order, not to mention, the more experienced providers can give better and faster care (usually).

As is the typical answer to military medicine; there are solutions, just that the military (medicine) lately seems to have a knack for being able to ruin just about any good idea.


This is of course true but it can also be said about the GMO. In the last few years in order to curtail this Navy Hospital Camp Lejeune has not permitted GMOs to order MRIs or prescribe certain medications without specialist involvement. A similiar thing could easily be dont with PAs.
 
ex-USAFdoc

First you complain about the huge patient panel...

You are sent PAs...

Now you complain about the tests the PAs order... and "green" PAs... as if GMOs aren't "green"... :rolleyes:

Just can't see the glass as half full can you... :sleep:

DocNusum
 
DocNusum said:
ex-USAFdoc

First you complain about the huge patient panel...

You are sent PAs...

Now you complain about the tests the PAs order... and "green" PAs... as if GMOs aren't "green"... :rolleyes:

Just can't see the glass as half full can you... :sleep:

DocNusum


we were not "sent" PAs......PAs REPLACED docs as practitioners, there is a BIG difference. In my current CIVILIAN world, most PAs functions as PAs..., in the military clinic I worked in it was not all that unusual to ONLY have a PA available that day (out of the 6 providers supposed to be manning the clinic). In a "professional medical clinic" PAs usually do NOT get their own patient panels, they usually assist the Physician to care for the docs panel size. Certainly this is the case for NEW PAs, of which the majority of PAs in the USAF clinics are. In the USAF, they are used INTERCHANGEABLY with physicians. At my base there was little difference in the panels of a doc vs a PA, and certainly no difference when you are 20% manned and just doing all you can to "stay afloat" as a clinic.

YES, I can see the "glass as half full". My current CIV practice has its problems and solutions, but again, we do not have a clinic here (my civ) practice being run recklessly (see other threads for this description).

If anything, you have proven again that some people will do all they can to discredit what myself and others have experienced first hand and backed up with specific examples and a ever growing list of other providers and journal articles to back us up. YOU, are the one that wants to see the glass as half full no matter what the REALITY. The USAF "glass" is not half full, it is full of holes with hard working staff doing their best to plug them while admin does its best to put in more holes.
 
DocNusum said:
ex-USAFdoc

First you complain about the huge patient panel...

You are sent PAs...

Now you complain about the tests the PAs order... and "green" PAs... as if GMOs aren't "green"... :rolleyes:

Just can't see the glass as half full can you... :sleep:

DocNusum

and I am not "complaining" about tests PAs order. If the military wants to design a healthcare system like they have, then they will "pay the bill".

Is it that hard for you to understand that novice PAs (or docs for that matter) will likely order more "unnec tests" than seasoned physicians?

And who said a GMO isn't "green"? Heck, I was "green" when I started my USAF career.

Lighten up docnusum, sounds like you woke up on the wrong side of the cot this morning.
 
USAFdoc said:
we were not "sent" PAs......PAs REPLACED docs as practitioners, there is a BIG difference. In my current CIVILIAN world, most PAs functions as PAs..., in the military clinic I worked in it was not all that unusual to ONLY have a PA available that day (out of the 6 providers supposed to be manning the clinic). In a "professional medical clinic" PAs usually do NOT get their own patient panels, they usually assist the Physician to care for the docs panel size. Certainly this is the case for NEW PAs, of which the majority of PAs in the USAF clinics are. In the USAF, they are used INTERCHANGEABLY with physicians. At my base there was little difference in the panels of a doc vs a PA, and certainly no difference when you are 20% manned and just doing all you can to "stay afloat" as a clinic.

YES, I can see the "glass as half full". My current CIV practice has its problems and solutions, but again, we do not have a clinic here (my civ) practice being run recklessly (see other threads for this description).

If anything, you have proven again that some people will do all they can to discredit what myself and others have experienced first hand and backed up with specific examples and a ever growing list of other providers and journal articles to back us up. YOU, are the one that wants to see the glass as half full no matter what the REALITY. The USAF "glass" is not half full, it is full of holes with hard working staff doing their best to plug them while admin does its best to put in more holes.

WOW...!!! :eek:

Xanax 3SR 1 po bid # 180 10 refills...

I under/overstand that the system is broke!

But...

In my civilian Job as a PA... I only see my MD once a week for ~ 5-7 min to exchange a pager... (I talk to him ~ 3 times a week on the phone).

Is it that hard for you to understand that novice PAs (or docs for that matter) will likely order more "unnec tests" than seasoned physicians?

Not at all... but I PERSONALLY feel that our servicemembers are worth those tests if thats what it takes... ;)

Green PAs and MD/DOs need a venue to get ready for "the line."

Again... I KNOW that the system is broken... I'm just trying to offer solutions!


DocNusum
 
I am a former USAF PA x 4 years and now a GMO Flight doc. I was prior enlisted x 10 years in the medical field, so, I have seen both worlds. There is no easy solution. In 1995, the USAF had 470 or so PA's and thru "right sizing" there are now approximately 300.

Problem was: manning looks at a FTE slot as the workhorse for RVU's/access
and 10 years ago some doctor/nurse O-6 or above came up with the "bright idea" that all slots would be "better served to have docs if a doc = PA in terms of FTE provider terms". In fact, I was told personally by several O-6 nurses who were "helping" solve this manning problem--- "if 1 slot is equal, i'm sure all patients would rather see a physician so we are going to convert these slots and it is a win/win situation".

Hello---- try and find/recruit/retain that many FP docs with the current status of the USAF primary care situation + deployments (frankly, it's not going to happen).

So what happened? Well, many medical groups took this "advice" and changed PA slots to Doc slots. Sounds logical, but understand this... a PA isn't usually on any medical group committees/additional duty and PA's/NP's are nothing but massive number crunchers for the clinic's patient count. Example, my load was 28-35 + per day and I had clinic 4.5 days every week, and did 1 shift on weekend in ER for fast track type patients. I typically saw 400-500 patients a month and the closest physician # were in the 250-300 range.

So our problem today is, there are not many PA's, we can't get enough docs = stressed USAF primary care (can't comment on USA/USN). Those in the trenches get whipped, thus, worse FP retention! (see USAFdoc (ex's) experiences). Morale suffers, retention worsens and the vicious circle keeps swirling. Same thing occurs with surgeons/specialists in the USAF--- no cases = disgrunteled docs = poor morale = NO retention.

Nothing against docs, but a seasoned doc, especially one who is a Major or above is usually tasked to do something else besides being a "FTE" and they typically have 3 days or less at times of clinic due to TDY's/training/CME/committee's and such. Also, there is no way the military is going to ever recruit enough docs to fill these converted billets. The USAF now is 100+ slots open for FP's that will essentially never fill due to attrition and such. The fix now is to "convert" these slots to Civilian FP's. Problem is--- pay is not super attractive and most I have seen can't stand the BS/extra paperwork and the added admininstrative crap that they rarely stay longer than their 1 year (if that).

Our current med group has 8 slots for FP civilians now, only 2 are filled and the other two docs they had stayed 2 months and quit. They haven't even interviewed any prospective docs for these slots in the last 2 months. Pay is certainly an issue, but alot of it is word of mouth.

There is not a "magical mix" of either. But 1/3 docs and 2/3 PA's/NP's actually would make more sense in most primary care clinics from an RVU/meeting daily needs standpoint.

Recruiting PA's is also difficult. One reason is, pay is NO longer attractive. In 1995 a PA graduate started at 38-42 K, now they come out in the 55-65 K range. With a few years experience, it isn't uncommon for a PA to make 80-100 K, especially if they are a specialty PA (ENT, ortho, Cardio, Derm). A military PA's salary is less, they get only 166 dollars monthly for board certification pay and there are NO other bonuses to make it attractive for them to stay or come in, also, they have terrible promotion rates (BSC corps) b/c they compete with Pharmacists/P.T./optometry and others and the promotion to Major is long and about 75% if you have everything including PME and such. They don't have "stellar OPR's" due to their use-- as a number machine and not as clinic chief/additional duty person.

I am going to echo USAFdoc's concerns about primary care, because I saw them on a daily basis as well. It still is ongoing and I don't know if there is an easy solution. But, since the decision makers never seem to "ask" the people who are in dealing with this problem (the FP docs, PA's, NP's) and NOT the nurses or some administrative MSC or out of touch O-6.

In my military medical experience, I have had only 1 physician (just 1 year ago) come by and do an anonymous survey about this-- he asked my concerns and I had him for 1.5 hours and he looked "stunned" to hear this from a lowly Captain. He was from HQ AFMSA position doing some site surveys, but was "concerned" about the retention problem and he was investigating for an upcoming committee meeting on this problem. Oddly enough, I never heard back from him and the other docs/PA's in the medical group were either too scared or too busy to take the time to give him feedback. Likely, I was written off as a "crazy disgruntled dude" but , I ended my talk with him letting him know that I love the USAF, was a career man, and was planning on another 10 years of service.

I think this was a great topic for this forum, but again, unlikely any of us here can "fix" this. But, one thing we can do is-- speak up professionally at meetings / committee's/ with peer's and such to state our cases and get our point of view heard... This must be done tactfully and takes some guts to do-- but it is the right thing to do!

One caveat though, do it professionally. I haven't sufferred any adverse actions-- but I have seen some others get beat down for this, especially if they aren't professional, don't have a "fix/alternative" solution or are disrespectful. I don't consider myself a rebel, but if I don't agree with something, I always let it be known and offer an alternative solution. At the end of the day, I salute and follow what my commander or clinic chief directs me to. I guess that's why I am still active duty and trying my best to keep my standards high and provide the best patient care I can (despite the obstacles).

I understand some can't play that game, but if you plan on a long military career, it is unfortunately an unwritten requirement to have!

Thanks for listening and hope I did impart some insight for some on this forum. I don't claim to be an expert, but again, I do have some experience with this particular topic. ;)
 
Thanks USAFGMODOC...

I'm just trying to offer some suggestions to the OBVIOUS problems...

Because I firmly believe that our men & women in uniform deserve the best!!!

DocNusum
 
i appreciate your wanting to do everything/anything possible to give our troops and families the best care. But until there are some drastic and basic changes on how USAF primary care does its business, it is really all a case in frustration for any provider committed to excellence.

If a clinic could give excellent care with 20% staffing, all novice providers, no chart availability, no physician input to the clinic business decision making process, TRICARE as the chosen "HMO", and a long list of other hurdles tossed by admin at the feet of the patients and staff, well then every clinic in America would be doing that.

The sad FACT is that just about every characteristic of an high functioning excellent clinic is MISSING from the current "blue print" being used for USAF Primary care. USAFGMODOCs recap of his clinics struggles mirror my own and most others in the USAF.

The final "nail in the coffin" is the FACT that the physicians have ZERO authority to fix problems as they arise, and the SG has purposely and sadly designed the system to do just that. If I had not actually been there to witness what is going on, I would never believe it.
 
most PAs functions as PAs..., in the military clinic I worked in it was not all that unusual to ONLY have a PA available that day (out of the 6 providers supposed to be manning the clinic)
Most military and many civilian PAs function semi-autonomously
(Army PAs assigned to combat units need the practice...!)
In a "professional medical clinic" PAs usually do NOT get their own patient panels, they usually assist the Physician to care for the docs panel size. Certainly this is the case for NEW PAs, of which the majority of PAs in the USAF clinics are.

WRONG...
Unless it's a specialty clinic... in civilian "professional medical clinics," PAs and NPs DO have their own patient panels. I've had up to a 986 patients on my panel that only seen the MD if I was unsure about something... or I was out of the office. The key to this working well is the mid-level MUST know their limitations (be able to admit when they don't know something!) and the MD/DO MUST be accessible.

What you describe is the utilization of Mid-levels in sub-specialty medicine. If you hired a FP, IM, EM or Derm Mid-level and utilized the above practice model... you would essentially be paying for a expensive $70k/year medical assistant. Mid-levels PRACTICE MEDICINE... not assisting.

NEW PAs should no more be watched than New GMOs... (considering that they are both recent Barbara Bates initiates... and 80% of MILITARY FP is well checks and routine care of the common ills of man... NOT the Zebras that consume that extra special "doctor" brainpower! :rolleyes: )

Hell... during peace time... MOST of the patients seen in Military Medical Clinics are Healthy 17-35 year olds... which is why Military Surgeons have such a hard time.

My original premise:

1 male MD/DO or PA is needed for EVERY 500 Soldiers or Marines on the ground in harms way... at the Battalion Aid Station Level. The need isn't as great in the Airforce and Navy (The difference in need is based upon discreet mobile combat operational units on the ground directly "interfacing" with the enemy v/s static airbases and ships at sea)

AMEDD needs to start a Civilian PA Indoc program to meet the need.
Every Military MD/DO should mentor a PA. (they are there to practice medicine and make your job easier)All Deployable Male PAs should be in Battalion aid stations... after attending CCCC. Just as 80% of male medics are in CSCs
 
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I appreciate the intelligent debate. Glad I could 'stimulate' all you Grown Ups out there! If I decide to serve my country in the medical world maybe I can be a catalyst for some positive changes to the system.
 
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DocNusum,

Hell... during peace time... MOST of the patients seen in Military Medical Clinics are Healthy 17-35 year olds... which is why Military Surgeons have such a hard time.

Huh??? I thought from your previous posts that you _were_ a military PA at some point.

Unless you mean "military medical clinic" to only mean "Troop Medical Clinics" your statement is completely 100% wrong. The overwhelming majority of the patients I see (as a 3rd, now a 4th year med student, rotating through the majority of clinics) are retirees and dependants.

Military surgeons having a tough time? We seem to have no problems _whatsoever_ keeping our ORs filled with all manner of cases (yes, even if you took out the gastric bypasses), very very few of them involving 17-35 y/o AD soldiers.

I'm doing a month in sports medicine right now. This is the first time in medical school I have had over 50% of my patients on active duty.
 
Unless you mean "military medical clinic" to only mean "Troop Medical Clinics" your statement is completely 100% wrong.
I was referring to ARMY TMCs...

The overwhelming majority of the patients I see (as a 3rd, now a 4th year med student, rotating through the majority of clinics) are retirees and dependants.

No doubt... My primary concern is the troops in harms way...

Military surgeons having a tough time? We seem to have no problems _whatsoever_ keeping our ORs filled with all manner of cases (yes, even if you took out the gastric bypasses), very very few of them involving 17-35 y/o AD soldiers.

Re-read the threads about Surgical Practice or lack there of... in the Military...

as a 3rd, now a 4th year med student, rotating through the majority of clinics
You ARE NOT rotating through the majority of clinics. You are a student. When you graduate and start your "un-accompanied" GMO tour in Korea, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc... then you will see that Family Practice and Geriatrics providers are a important but small population. (if you are ARMY)

I'm doing a month in sports medicine right now. This is the first time in medical school I have had over 50% of my patients on active duty.

Which I think demonstrates my point!

Again...

My point and immeadiate concern is for those in uniform... in harms way!
Let me help you... think 82nd Abn Div, 101st Abn Div, 24th ID, 18th Abn Corp, 3rd ID, 1st ID, 7th ID, Marines, etc... I'm looking out for the "ground pounders," the "boots on the ground." You know... "To conserve the fighting strength"...! I'm not as concerned with the AF detachment co located at the airbase with a CASH/Mash/Evac. I'm writing about the guys out doing foot patrols every 8-12hrs that has to "look em in the eye" seconds before the recoil... These are the guys that need and deserve immeadiate care within a mile of contact. Yes there are some GREAT medics assigned to these units, but in 2006... the level of immeadiately Trauma care available should exceed that of the standard Army medic or Navy Corpman.

Just Thoughts!

DocNusum
 
DocNusum said:
Most military and many civilian PAs function semi-autonomously

Most USAF military PAs have near ZERO oversight by physicians. In the civilian world many states have laws requiring new patients to be seen by physicians and patients with certain diagnosis etc. I understand that in areas where there are few physicians, PAs may be all you have and so you make the best of a bad situation. The military just happens to have made military medicine a "bad situation" in many regards now as well.[SIZE=1

WRONG...
Unless it's a specialty clinic... in civilian "professional medical clinics," PAs and NPs DO have their own patient panels. I've had up to a 986 patients on my panel that only seen the MD if I was unsure about something... or I was out of the office. The key to this working well is the mid-level MUST know their limitations [I](be able to admit when they don't know something!)
and the MD/DO MUST be accessible.

You are OVERSTATING yourself here. My PA has no panel in my practice, and that is true of most all the PAs working for the large HMO I am employed by. In the USAF we had brand new PAs unsupervised with effective panel sizes of well over 2000 patients. And as far as knowing your limitations, sometimes one just "doesn't know what they don't know" especially when new.

What you describe is the utilization of Mid-levels in sub-specialty medicine. If you hired a FP, IM, EM or Derm Mid-level and utilized the above practice model... you would essentially be paying for a expensive $70k/year medical assistant. Mid-levels PRACTICE MEDICINE... not assisting.
Mid-levels are to be used to see non complex patients to leave the physician free from having to see the simpler acute cases, and stable chronic illnesses.[/COLOR]

NEW PAs should no more be watched than New GMOs... (considering that they are both recent Barbara Bates initiates... and 80% of MILITARY FP is well checks and routine care of the common ills of man...

I am going to stop here after reading this entry because you have declared yourself clueless. In the about 10,000 patients I saw during my last 3 years in the military I would venture less than 1% were well checks. You now have ZERO credibility. Your next quote is ridiculous. Most all patients seen are retiress and dependents with older unhealthy military active duty in third place. The healthy active duty don't come in unless the sprained their ankle in PT. The represent a very small slice of the patients seen daily.Many/most USAF clinics closed their Internal Med clinics over the past few years and tranferred all the patients to Family Medicne.
This whole PA issue is just one of a myriad of problems, deficincies, wrong people in the wrong place at the wrong time etc. I am glad we have them (PAs) because at 20% staffing there would be nobody else in clinic some days (and whose responsibility is that? Are you listening Surgeon General? Probably not, why start now huh?)[[/I]/COLOR]
 
... I am going to stop here after reading this entry because you have declared yourself clueless.... You now have ZERO credibility. Your next quote is ridiculous....

Dude You don't know **** about me...
YOU couldn't hack the soft ass airforce... got shown the door... whilst carrying a "god complex' all the while... now you work for some sorry assed HMO... being pushed to see a patient every 12 1/2 minutes... knowing that you WILL NEVER be a partner demonstrates your problem. :scared:

You joined the Military for money... and probably whined the entire time they were paying off your loans... :rolleyes:

:idea: Grow up... ditch the sense of entitlement... we ALL know how to take care of people... I have several pieces of paper on my wall that says "Licence to practice Medicine also." I own my practice... and have 2 MD independent contractors that I pay 20% each for "supervision." Previously I worked for a 3 MD IM group... each MD "supervised" 2 PAs... each of the 9 Providers seen ~ 20 patients/day in office (does not include Stress testing, Hospital, SNF, Dementia Care Facilities)... I regularly billed >$400k/year... of course... my pay was < $70k/yr + bennies.

If you are "hamstringing" your Mid-levels... you basically got a bunch of high priced nursing assistants...

FYI... Many NON-RURAL states require "Electronic communication" and a q 2 week - 6 month on-site MD visit only.

You are wasting money.

Do some research...

So my Point:

I was writing about MY experience during MY 8 year tour in the ARMY!!!
I am looking for solutions to the problem of inadequate healthcare access for my military brothers and sisters!!!
I worked a few TMCs that was fully staffed (2 PAs, 1 LPN, 6 medics, 1 records specialist, 1 pharmacy specialist)
I jumped out of planes, slept in tents in the field, stood in the sand of Iraq, and seen the ****!


How do WE get more and better access to care for our shooters...

DocNusum
 
DocNusum said:
Dude You don't know **** about me...
YOU couldn't hack the soft ass airforce... got shown the door... whilst carrying a "god complex' all the while... now you work for some sorry assed HMO... being pushed to see a patient every 12 1/2 minutes... knowing that you WILL NEVER be a partner demonstrates your problem. :scared:

You joined the Military for money... and probably whined the entire time they were paying off your loans... :rolleyes:

:idea: Grow up... ditch the sense of entitlement... we ALL know how to take care of people... I have several pieces of paper on my wall that says "Licence to practice Medicine also." I own my practice... and have 2 MD independent contractors that I pay 20% each for "supervision." Previously I worked for a 3 MD IM group... each MD "supervised" 2 PAs... each of the 9 Providers seen ~ 20 patients/day in office (does not include Stress testing, Hospital, SNF, Dementia Care Facilities)... I regularly billed >$400k/year... of course... my pay was < $70k/yr + bennies.

If you are "hamstringing" your Mid-levels... you basically got a bunch of high priced nursing assistants...

FYI... Many NON-RURAL states require "Electronic communication" and a q 2 week - 6 month on-site MD visit only.

You are wasting money.

Do some research...

So my Point:

I was writing about MY experience during MY 8 year tour in the ARMY!!!
I am looking for solutions to the problem of inadequate healthcare access for my military brothers and sisters!!!
I worked a few TMCs that was fully staffed (2 PAs, 1 LPN, 6 medics, 1 records specialist, 1 pharmacy specialist)
I jumped out of planes, slept in tents in the field, stood in the sand of Iraq, and seen the ****!


How do WE get more better access to care for our shooters...

DocNusum

first you say I do not know "anything" about you (TRUE), then you go on to swear, acuse me of having a god comlpex, I was in USAF primary care just for the money, I couldn't "hack it" in the USAF, call the healthcare system I work for "sorry", make ussumptions about how much time I spend with my patients, and then call me "scared"?

Yesterday I felt that perhaps your attitude was just waking up on the wrong side of the bed, obviously you live on the wrong side.

You made your claims stating "military" in your description. If you now are backing that off to what you saw in your ARMY clinic fine. I have no info on what your clinic was like.

Whoever you are, I hope you treat your patients and staff alittle better than what you seem to portray yourself here as; a foul mouthed, ill-informed, quick to judge, a poor judge at that.

Your comments are about a ridiculous as some of the military medicine admin nonsense permeating some of todays military medicine, and could not be farther from the truth.

Lighten up before you see your first patient this morning huh?
 
We were doing well... having a adult conversation... sharing experiences... veteran to veteran... discussing ways to help improve healthcare for the troops... until YOU started with this:

... I am going to stop here after reading this entry because you have declared yourself clueless.... You now have ZERO credibility. Your next quote is ridiculous....
:eek:

Shots Fired... the Army Airborne shoots back!!!! :smuggrin:

:idea: We can both "stand down" or continue with the nonsense...

DocNusum
 
DocNusum said:
We were doing well... having a adult conversation... sharing experiences... veteran to veteran... discussing ways to help improve healthcare for the troops... until YOU started with this:

:eek:

Shots Fired... the Army Airborne shoots back!!!! :smuggrin:

:idea: We can both "stand down" or continue with the nonsense...

DocNusum

you have the chain of event backwards; you started with the personal attacks (and you are quite fluent with them, reminds me of my USN squid days on the USS Carl Vinson, you would have fit in wonderfuly in our instructor office where we frequently conversed like that).

anyways, this conversation is not really productive. Despite our disagreements, I have little doubt you could do twice as good a job at running a USAF primary clinic than the current way the SG does business...why, because you have done the work and know what it takes and what are the stregths and weaknesses of different providers etc., what works and what doesn't, and your goal is good care first (and $$$$) second.
 
Maybe the two of you can rochambeau on another thread and get it over with.
 
JMPeffer said:
Maybe the two of you can rochambeau on another thread and get it over with.

despite our disagreements, it is a welcome change to see someone (docnusum) get angry about things that should get one angry. The level of indifference shown by the senior leadership when confronted with the massive shortcomings, poor treatment of staff and adverse care of patients was/is astonishing.
 
-Financial Issues: You don't have to pay a PA as much as a Residency trained Physician, and the education process simply isn't as long. From what I can tell, there is no PA HPSP program out there, but it doesn't really sound improssible, the Army has one for Nurse Anesthesia: If most PA schools last around two and half years, they'd have to sign the minimum for three years of Active duty, and I bet the pay would be competitive with what starting PA's make in the civilian world

This was all just thought up on a whim tonight as I try to study, and I had to throw it out there so I could focus. What do you guys think?

The Army is offering civilian trained PA-C an incredible opportunity to get their educational loans paid off! Loan repayment of $30,651 is available for 3 years for a total of $91,953. This only requires a 3 year commitment!

I encourage interested PA-C to visit with an AMEDD Recruiter about the specific benefits that they may qualify for. An AMEDD Recruiter can be located by putting a zip code into the following website: http://www.goarmy.com/amedd/find_a_recruiter.jsp
Our recruiters are ready with the know-how to answer questions you or your students might have about the U.S. Army and the benefits of becoming an Army PA. If you run into any problems, don't hesitate to email me or give me a call and I will help you further.
The following website also has complete details about becoming an Army PA: http://www.usarec.army.mil/armypa/
 
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