pain procedures - local only vs sedation

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likeaboss

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Hi everyone,

I finished fellowship last year and recently started practicing interventional pain in a multispecialty group with a hospital affiliation. I am the only pain doctor in this group. i do 4 days of clinic and 1 day of procedures, and do all my procedures at this surgery center (affiliated with the multispecialty group). we do not have an in office fluoroscopy unit, but i'm pushing for this as of recently.

one problem i've run into is that I really feel it is safest to do our injections under local only, but there is a lot of pressure from the surgery center that in order to get on the schedule, cases need sedation with an anesthesiologist.

the whole thing seems pretty sketchy to me. from what i was taught, it is safest to do these procedures under no sedation at all so you can recognize when your needle is in a dangerous place. and on top of this, in order to get sedation patients need preop clearance by primary which adds an extra week to their authorization process.

the whole thing is slow and inefficient, but I also think it is compromising patient care...

any suggestions?

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Quote ASA and SIS recommendations regarding routine sedation for procedures as the standard of care.
 
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1. dont use sedation. most of the serious complications from procedures discussed on this board are in sedated patients -- including a death
2. try to get shares in the ASC if you can, in-office flouro if you cant


you tell me, does an SIJ or TFESI really need sedation?
 
yes.

show them a sample schedule of what you would expect to do with sedation - ie a procedure every 30 minutes.
then compare that with a schedule of local cases - a case every 15 minutes.

remind them that the ASC facility fee (that others on this board deride) will make them oodles of money over the puny reimbursement from having an anesthesiologist do the case. its all about $$$$$$


(I went through this same situation when I started at the ASC. the prior pain docs all used sedation. I do local only with exception of sympathetic blocks and stim trials. they had no problems when they realized that I was doing 20 cases a day compared to 8-10)
 
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yes.

show them a sample schedule of what you would expect to do with sedation - ie a procedure every 30 minutes.
then compare that with a schedule of local cases - a case every 15 minutes.

remind them that the ASC facility fee (that others on this board deride) will make them oodles of money over the puny reimbursement from having an anesthesiologist do the case. its all about $$$$$$


(I went through this same situation when I started at the ASC. the prior pain docs all used sedation. I do local only with exception of sympathetic blocks and stim trials. they had no problems when they realized that I was doing 20 cases a day compared to 8-10)
This is wise advice that will allow you to be successful in the negotiation and also not compromise patient care
 
Outside of the sedation vs. non-sedation debate: 1st and foremost, YOU are the physician and YOU dictate the care of your patients.

Do not feel pressured into utilizing sedation.
 
Safer and better for the patient to do local only, except for the rare occasional patient who is much too nervous. Also, saves money on medical costs that are unnecessary. Whether it is the insurance company or other payor, I think it is important to try and contain costs across the medical profession when reasonable. I feel bad whenever I witness or feel like I am part of a money grab situation.
 
Local only except stim
 
Thank you everyone for the input. I wrote a lengthy email today to our administrators explaining to them why this is an issue. they were very responsive and will set up a meeting with the ASC on the matter. i won't let them push me around on this one. its really a patient safety issue... but it also affects efficiency..

but lets follow the money.... who is the winner here under the current scenario? i get my cases pushed back 1-2 weeks for preops, turnover is twice as long, its more dangerous for patients, it costs patients and health care in general more money, the ASC collects less facility fees, and they way i understand it the anesthesiologist fees are bundled so they dont make much extra on these. unless i'm missing something?
 
Hi everyone,

I finished fellowship last year and recently started practicing interventional pain in a multispecialty group with a hospital affiliation. I am the only pain doctor in this group. i do 4 days of clinic and 1 day of procedures, and do all my procedures at this surgery center (affiliated with the multispecialty group). we do not have an in office fluoroscopy unit, but i'm pushing for this as of recently.

one problem i've run into is that I really feel it is safest to do our injections under local only, but there is a lot of pressure from the surgery center that in order to get on the schedule, cases need sedation with an anesthesiologist.

the whole thing seems pretty sketchy to me. from what i was taught, it is safest to do these procedures under no sedation at all so you can recognize when your needle is in a dangerous place. and on top of this, in order to get sedation patients need preop clearance by primary which adds an extra week to their authorization process.

the whole thing is slow and inefficient, but I also think it is compromising patient care...

any suggestions?


by your alias, I guess you were anesthesia-trained. Then you should really use the right term to describe your situation. In ASC, anesthesiologist/CRNA often give propofol for MAC, NOT conscious sedation.

So when you are talking about using local vs. sedation in ASC, you want to clarify propofol "sedation", in fact is Monitored Anesthesia Care (MAC), therefore anesthesia deserves to be paid for their presence and service.

Yes, using propofol MAC is not indicated in 90% of case, and can be even dangerous.

However, using a touch of versed/fentanyl for conscious sedation is well-deserved for any patients who feel anxious and scared of an interventional spine procedure.

I had lumbar MNBB/TESI done multiple times by different pain physicians in their office. I tell them it'd be nice to have something to take the edge off. Is it completely necessary? No. does it give patients a more comfortable experience? Yes.

Can 2mg of versed and 25mcg of fentanyl with basic ASA monitoring lead to complication? Any anesthesiologist can tell you, no.

Can it be protective for patient with heart-rate of 110s and bp of 180/100? Sure. Can it be protective for patients prone to vasovegal response? Yes.

I give a touch of versed for spinal procedures in my office suite. It takes more staff to put an IV and give meds and monitor, remove IV, etc. and it slows me down. Half of time private carriers don't even pay for conscious sedation. I still offer to patient and let them decide if it's necessary based on their individual preference.

On the other hand, using propofol for MAC so your ASC owner can bill for anesthesia service is risky.
 
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by your alias, I guess you were anesthesia-trained. Then you should really use the right term to describe your situation. In ASC, anesthesiologist/CRNA often give propofol for MAC, NOT conscious sedation.

So when you are talking about using local vs. sedation in ASC, you want to clarify propofol "sedation", in fact is Monitored Anesthesia Care (MAC), therefore anesthesia deserves to be paid for their presence and service.

Yes, using propofol MAC is not indicated in 90% of case, and can be even dangerous.

However, using a touch of versed/fentanyl for conscious sedation is well-deserved for any patients who feel anxious and scared of an interventional spine procedure.

I had lumbar MNBB/TESI done multiple times by different pain physicians in their office. I tell them it'd be nice to have something to take the edge off. Is it completely necessary? No. does it give patients a more comfortable experience? Yes.

Can 2mg of versed and 25mcg of fentanyl with basic ASA monitoring lead to complication? Any anesthesiologist can tell you, no.

Can it be protective for patient with heart-rate of 110s and bp of 180/100? Sure. Can it be protective for patients prone to vasovegal response? Yes.

I give a touch of versed for spinal procedures in my office suite. It takes more staff to put an IV and give meds and monitor, remove IV, etc. and it slows me down. Half of time private carriers don't even pay for conscious sedation. I still offer to patient and let them decide if it's necessary based on their individual preference.

On the other hand, using propofol for MAC so your ASC owner can bill for anesthesia service is risky.
reased

Misguided as heck. In full denial over safety. Go to sis, read fact finders. Look at closed claims for cesi. Increase in risk. Anxiety is not an indication for sedation for pain procedures.
 
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Agree with lobel, can a little versed and fentanyl lead to complication, YES! Didn’t we just have a thread on this a few days ago with a good example. If sedation is needed for procedures you do then you are welcome to do a site visit at our office where we do injections every single day in the office with zero sedation.

To the original question. I am part owner in an ASC. Volume and money talk. Show them without sedation your volume will go up and they will make more money and you will have zero push back. Just make sure you deliver. This is a good example where good business and good medicine go hand in hand as no sedation is good for both.
 
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the anesthesiologists want the cases b/c it is money for very easy, mindless work. they may have an ownership stake in the ASC, thus they are pushing their own agenda. if they were smart, they would see that they'd make more money off the increased facility fees. if they dont have an ownership stake, then they may get paid per case somehow. follow the money.

you dont need them and you dont need sedation in the vast majority of cases
 
If you're doing procedures in an office setting, follow these two rules and your life will be infinitely easier:

No IV sedation. No local in the epidural space.

Patients can drive (after 20 min wait). There's no groggy patients hanging around 2 hours after closing time. There's no controlled meds to lock up, to attract thieves to break into your office. And no wobbly legged patients that trip and fall on the way out the door. No risk of aspiration or need for intubation. No need for a CRNA, anesthesiologist, extra nurse or to push your own IV meds.

It's a much, much cleaner method of operation. If the rare patient does need something, make it xanax 1-2 tab po, 60 min prior to procedure (kypho, stim, or the rare routine procedure with mega-anxiety & a driver) with no refills.
 
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Side note, i received a scathing 1 star online review because I did not use MAC for a patient getting medial branch blocks. Even told her the day before no sedation to temper her expectations.

Got an email from hospital asking for explanation.
 
Side note, i received a scathing 1 star online review because I did not use MAC for a patient getting medial branch blocks. Even told her the day before no sedation to temper her expectations.

Got an email from hospital asking for explanation.



I just had to talk a patient out of requesting sedation for SIJ. She had it done before in ASC with MAC previously.

On the other hand, while it's easier and cleaner for us to do spinal procedures in office WITHOUT sedation, have you ever asked your patients whether or not they prefer to have some conscious IV sedation?

If you never intended to offer and therefore never even asked, how can you assume your patients didn't ever need them or want them?

Are you the one being poked with 18G needle for ILESI or 6 needles for MNBB into spine?

As a patient, I would go to a doctor who would offer a little IV sedation and then decide if it's an option I'd like to take.

Will you take your wife to an OB who would not even offer labor epidural, simply because s/he believes labor epidural is NOT necessary?

If you think the necessity of labor epidural (or at least the obligation to offer a labor epidural) is indisputable, think of this, majority of women in the WORLD still go through L&D without labor epidural. So is it necessary? absolutely not. Is it good medicine? Of course, for many reasons.

IV sedation is still offered as OPTIONAL for upper GI endoscopy in majority of hospitals in China. Patients would have terrible experience and refuse to do them again ever, therefore diminish the value of periodic upper GI screening. They are just catching up on the concept of "patient experience".

My point is, you might practice the way you see it's best for you, or even for your patients. You owe it to your patient to give them the option for the reasons of benefit, risk, alternative and cost.

One size does not fit all.
 
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I just had to talk a patient out of requesting sedation for SIJ. She had it done before in ASC with MAC previously.

On the other hand, while it's easier and cleaner for us to do spinal procedures in office WITHOUT sedation, have you ever asked your patients whether or not they prefer to have some conscious IV sedation?

If you never intended to offer and therefore never even asked, how can you assume your patients didn't ever need them or want them?

Are you the one being poked with 18G needle for ILESI or 6 needles for MNBB into spine?

As a patient, I would go to a doctor who would offer a little IV sedation and then decide if it's an option I'd like to take.

Will you take your wife to an OB who would not even offer labor epidural, simply because s/he believes labor epidural is NOT necessary?

If you think the necessity of labor epidural (or at least the obligation to offer a labor epidural) is indisputable, think of this, majority of women in the WORLD still go through L&D without labor epidural. So is it necessary? absolutely not. Is it good medicine? Of course, for many reasons.

IV sedation is still offered as OPTIONAL for upper GI endoscopy in majority of hospitals in China. Patients would have terrible experience and refuse to do them again ever, therefore diminish the value of periodic upper GI screening. They are just catching up on the concept of "patient experience".

My point is, you might practice the way you see it's best for you, or even for your patients. You owe it to your patient to give them the option for the reasons of benefit, risk, alternative and cost.

One size does not fit all.

Uh, what? Who cares what they want and need? Since when does that supercede medical necessity..?

Must have a lot of happy patients getting dilaudid and fentanyl rx from you every day, since you ask them what they want and need first, and then proceed to do it..
 
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Uh, what? Who cares what they want and need? Since when does that supercede medical necessity..?

Must have a lot of happy patients getting dilaudid and fentanyl rx from you every day, since you ask them what they want and need first, and then proceed to do it..

who cares? As a doctor, we should care about what patients want and try to meet their objectives. If we cannot meet their objectives ethically, you tell them with sound reason, and move on.

However, to say we do not care what patients want is simply wrong. Patients have the right to have a comfortable and safe procedural experience.

Is labor epidural a medical necessity?

If you've done anesthesia in L&D, you'd know plenty of ob docs don't want their patients get labor epidural for the fear of "delay delivery". So what you are saying basically is like what ob tells their patients, "oh, no labor epidural is not medically necessary even though it might make you feel more comfortable with the delivery process. So no, I won't even offer the option to you".

so don't tell me (or your patients) that conscious IV sedation is NOT medically necessary, until you get guys doing spinal procedure under MAC at thousands of ASC across the country every day. You have a long way to substantiate your claim sedation is not the standard of care in any community.
 
who cares? As a doctor, we should care about what patients want and try to meet their objectives. If we cannot meet their objectives ethically, you tell them with sound reason, and move on.

However, to say we do not care what patients want is simply wrong. Patients have the right to have a comfortable and safe procedural experience.

Is labor epidural a medical necessity?

If you've done anesthesia in L&D, you'd know plenty of ob docs don't want their patients get labor epidural for the fear of "delay delivery". So what you are saying basically is like what ob tells their patients, "oh, no labor epidural is not medically necessary even though it might make you feel more comfortable with the delivery process. So no, I won't even offer the option to you".

so don't tell me (or your patients) that conscious IV sedation is NOT medically necessary, until you get guys doing spinal procedure under MAC at thousands of ASC across the country every day. You have a long way to substantiate your claim sedation is not the standard of care in any community.


BTW, I have pretty much an opioid-free practice, less than 10% of my patients are on any opioids. If they are, it's because the opioid was started by referring physician and I continue them on low dose ( no more than 20 MDEQ) if they have reasonable expectation.

But then again, what does my opioid-prescribing pattern have anything to do with offering patient a comfortable experience with spinal injection? Let's not deviate this discussion to a name-calling pissing contest.

When did we as a physician in service-oriented profession forget we have the obligation to give patients a pleasant experience whenever it's possible without compromising safety and efficacy?
 
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BTW, I have pretty much an opioid-free practice, less than 10% of my patients are on any opioids. If they are, it's because the opioid was started by referring physician and I continue them on low dose ( no more than 20 MDEQ) if they have reasonable expectation.

But then again, what does my opioid-prescribing pattern have anything to do with offering patient a comfortable experience with spinal injection? Let's not deviate this discussion to a name-calling pissing contest.

When did we as a physician in service-oriented profession forget we have the obligation to give patients a pleasant experience whenever it's possible without compromising safety and efficacy?

So who profits from your inability to provide comfortable care from procedures using local only? Anxiety is not an indication for sedation. See the fact finder. Safety is adversely affected by use of sedation.
 
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Just was trying to make a point is all.

What’s necessary and what’s safe is more important than a little anxiety from the patient, especially when we’re dealing with simple spine injections such as ESI, mbb, etc

Anyway, I’d imagine the availability of IV sedation is half the battle. When it’s not offered, pts don’t think about it, and they do just fine. The fact that it’s there and offered makes people “feel” they need it more than they do.
 
I offer a po benzo for office fluoro suite procedures if someone is going to be really anxious. I don’t outright refuse IV sedation, but the wait for procedures in my ASC is about a month vs office is <1 week. Also some commercial carriers in my area don’t pay for sedation for pain cases. Most who wanted sedation opt for office and are fine with the po benzo. Great majority are still straight local.

However, all my RFA and Scs are in a facility and I have no problem with a touch of versed or fentanyl from the Crna on these. They do clearly understand that no matter what I want my patient “awake” and able to converse with me at all times. Some were used to snowing all pain patients with propofol.... A few patients get pissed that they weren’t “knocked out”... even though their procedure was done comfortably and safely.
 
So who profits from your inability to provide comfortable care from procedures using local only? Anxiety is not an indication for sedation. See the fact finder. Safety is adversely affected by use of sedation.


As a non-anesthesiologist (and I bet you have not had certification for administering conscious sedation certification as a non-anesthesiologist), you are making claims such as "anxiety is not an indication for sedation" and "safety is adversely affected by use of sedation".

- So what are the indications for intravenous conscious sedation (I am not talking about MAC with propofol, but then again, I'm not sure you can tell the difference between MAC and conscious sedation)?

- Please provide studies to show "safety is adversely affected by use of sedation"...again, conscious sedation, not MAC with propofol.

On the other hand, I can give you multiple indications where conscious sedation REDUCE risks of complications with invasive spinal injections and not only improve patient experience, but also safety.

Sure, if you never even bother to monitor patient's vitals when doing spinal procedures, you'd never know how physiologically deranged patient's vital signs can be during a "routine" spinal procedures.

It's your call if you do not offer sedation for your procedures. Don't make blanket statement patients do not need them.

I had LTESIx1, IESILx2 and MNBBx1 done by two different pain physicians in office setting. I was NOT offered IV sedation because the docs didn't provide IV sedation in office. For LTESI, I had the option of getting the procedure done in an ASC by another pain physician. The ASC was out-of-network, even with professional discount, I would still have to pay more than 1K MORE for getting the procedure done at the OON ASC with IV sedation than getting it done in another doctor's office without sedation.

So I chose doing the procedure without sedation in office setting because I didn't think paying $1000 more for sedation to be done with the procedure in an ASC was financially-sound. If another equally-qualified physician would do these procedures in office with IV sedation, I would have no doubt choosing the other doctor for a more comfortable and pleasant experience.

The point is, the option should be offered to the patient if you are qualified and capable of administering conscious IV sedation in your office. If you are not qualified, or comfortable, or concerned about the turn-over efficiency, sure, you don't have to offer it. Whatever you do in your office for your comfort level, it's your call.

However, don't make the blanket claim on your patient's behalf.

Again, I'm emphasizing we're not talking about MAC with propofol, which I think should be reserved for unique cases.
 
As a non-anesthesiologist (and I bet you have not had certification for administering conscious sedation certification as a non-anesthesiologist), you are making claims such as "anxiety is not an indication for sedation" and "safety is adversely affected by use of sedation".

- So what are the indications for intravenous conscious sedation (I am not talking about MAC with propofol, but then again, I'm not sure you can tell the difference between MAC and conscious sedation)?

- Please provide studies to show "safety is adversely affected by use of sedation"...again, conscious sedation, not MAC with propofol.

On the other hand, I can give you multiple indications where conscious sedation REDUCE risks of complications with invasive spinal injections and not only improve patient experience, but also safety.

Sure, if you never even bother to monitor patient's vitals when doing spinal procedures, you'd never know how physiologically deranged patient's vital signs can be during a "routine" spinal procedures.

It's your call if you do not offer sedation for your procedures. Don't make blanket statement patients do not need them.

I had LTESIx1, IESILx2 and MNBBx1 done by two different pain physicians in office setting. I was NOT offered IV sedation because the docs didn't provide IV sedation in office. For LTESI, I had the option of getting the procedure done in an ASC by another pain physician. The ASC was out-of-network, even with professional discount, I would still have to pay more than 1K MORE for getting the procedure done at the OON ASC with IV sedation than getting it done in another doctor's office without sedation.

So I chose doing the procedure without sedation in office setting because I didn't think paying $1000 more for sedation to be done with the procedure in an ASC was financially-sound. If another equally-qualified physician would do these procedures in office with IV sedation, I would have no doubt choosing the other doctor for a more comfortable and pleasant experience.

The point is, the option should be offered to the patient if you are qualified and capable of administering conscious IV sedation in your office. If you are not qualified, or comfortable, or concerned about the turn-over efficiency, sure, you don't have to offer it. Whatever you do in your office for your comfort level, it's your call.

However, don't make the blanket claim on your patient's behalf.

Again, I'm emphasizing we're not talking about MAC with propofol, which I think should be reserved for unique cases.

SIS.

And you sound like a defensive pain patient, not a physician. We sedated half of our patients in fellowship and i offered sedation for a few years in practice. The literature refutes your every claim.

Bet you make bank knocking people out for your dx mbbs.
 
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SIS.

And you sound like a defensive pain patient, not a physician. We sedated half of our patients in fellowship and i offered sedation for a few years in practice. The literature refutes your every claim.

Bet you make bank knocking people out for your dx mbbs.

As a non-anesthesiologist (and I bet you have not had certification for administering conscious sedation certification as a non-anesthesiologist), you are making claims such as "anxiety is not an indication for sedation" and "safety is adversely affected by use of sedation".

- So what are the indications for intravenous conscious sedation (I am not talking about MAC with propofol, but then again, I'm not sure you can tell the difference between MAC and conscious sedation)?

- Please provide studies to show "safety is adversely affected by use of sedation"...again, conscious sedation, not MAC with propofol.

On the other hand, I can give you multiple indications where conscious sedation REDUCE risks of complications with invasive spinal injections and not only improve patient experience, but also safety.

Sure, if you never even bother to monitor patient's vitals when doing spinal procedures, you'd never know how physiologically deranged patient's vital signs can be during a "routine" spinal procedures.

It's your call if you do not offer sedation for your procedures. Don't make blanket statement patients do not need them.

I had LTESIx1, IESILx2 and MNBBx1 done by two different pain physicians in office setting. I was NOT offered IV sedation because the docs didn't provide IV sedation in office. For LTESI, I had the option of getting the procedure done in an ASC by another pain physician. The ASC was out-of-network, even with professional discount, I would still have to pay more than 1K MORE for getting the procedure done at the OON ASC with IV sedation than getting it done in another doctor's office without sedation.

So I chose doing the procedure without sedation in office setting because I didn't think paying $1000 more for sedation to be done with the procedure in an ASC was financially-sound. If another equally-qualified physician would do these procedures in office with IV sedation, I would have no doubt choosing the other doctor for a more comfortable and pleasant experience.

The point is, the option should be offered to the patient if you are qualified and capable of administering conscious IV sedation in your office. If you are not qualified, or comfortable, or concerned about the turn-over efficiency, sure, you don't have to offer it. Whatever you do in your office for your comfort level, it's your call.

However, don't make the blanket claim on your patient's behalf.

Again, I'm emphasizing we're not talking about MAC with propofol, which I think should be reserved for unique cases.
Where I practice..horizon blue cross and aetna do not pay the anesthesia group that would provide the conscious sedation for “pain procedures” in my asc. Granted this is most likely a contractual issue but I have performed countless procedures without any sedation in my surgical center. I give po Valium and it is more than adequate for rfa and scs. I’m not sure why it would be indicated for mbb and can actually think of reasons why it may create a false diagnostic response, or why it would be needed for epidurals. I hear so many stories from patients about “my friend was knocked out for these.” My response is that I don’t do that and I have never had any push back from them. If they feel as though they can trust you..then they should trust your decision making as to how they should proceed with the procedure. No offense to anesthesia trained docs (as I am PMR) but as the one who wrote the guidelines for my asc and as the one who is overseeing people who ask for privileges, I routinely see the anesthesia docs wanting to be able to consistently provide sedation. I have also observed many of them and have refused to give them privileges after observation as I just didn’t feel comfortable with their technical ability. Most recently I had issues with a doc trained at Cleveland clinic.

In my previous practice I found it interesting that many of the patients who were booked in the “hospital” which was a glorified asc...got sedated whether or not I requested it for the patient. Upon questioning that practice I was later told that the anesthesia group working did not want to be “involved” with the patient(s) if they weren’t directly providing anesthesia and so it seemed that most patients wound up sedated.

I don’t think sedation is necessary for 80% of what we do. People that routinely use it may want to question their own skill set as most of the procedures we do can routinely be carried out in an office setting with local anesthesia
 
who cares? As a doctor, we should care about what patients want and try to meet their objectives. If we cannot meet their objectives ethically, you tell them with sound reason, and move on.

However, to say we do not care what patients want is simply wrong. Patients have the right to have a comfortable and safe procedural experience.

Is labor epidural a medical necessity?

If you've done anesthesia in L&D, you'd know plenty of ob docs don't want their patients get labor epidural for the fear of "delay delivery". So what you are saying basically is like what ob tells their patients, "oh, no labor epidural is not medically necessary even though it might make you feel more comfortable with the delivery process. So no, I won't even offer the option to you".

so don't tell me (or your patients) that conscious IV sedation is NOT medically necessary, until you get guys doing spinal procedure under MAC at thousands of ASC across the country every day. You have a long way to substantiate your claim sedation is not the standard of care in any community.

Ethical? Did you miss that part about sedation blunting the response of the patient if there's an untoward event, and that most pain procedure complications happen in cases where the patient is sedated?

Sedation should never be used just because a patient requests it or is anxious. There's Seroquel, Vistaril, even a short-acting benzo PO to take care of that. You sure you're a MD?
 
I am attaching 3 articles here for anesthesiologist and non-anesthesiologists here to read and understand, so that you don't simply quote a study/guideline without understanding the content.

#1. CONTINUUM OF DEPTH OF SEDATION: DEFINITION OF GENERAL ANESTHESIA AND LEVELS OF SEDATION/ANALGESIA (Approved by the ASA House of Delegates on October 13, 1999, and last amended on October 15, 2014)

#2. Statement on Anesthetic Care During Interventional Pain Procedures for Adults, (Approved by the ASA House of Delegates on October 22, 2005 and last amended on October 26, 2016)

#3. Conscious Sedation FactFinder (Published December 2014)


I.

For non-anesthesiologists, please read #1 carefully and understand the different level of sedation and the continnum of depth of sedation, as well as the definition of MAC.

"Moderate (conscious) sedation is a drug-induced depression of consciousness during which patients respond purposefully to verbal command, either alone or accompanied by light tactile stimulation. No interventions are required to maintain a patent airway, and spontaneous ventilation is adequate. Cardiovascular function is usually maintained.”

Key words here are: patients respond purposefully to VERBAL command.

When "sedation" is provided in ASA setting with anesthesia service is involved, it is by definition MAC (monitored anesthesia care) for it to be payable. Therefore the sedation provided in ASA setting, either with propofol, or combination of propofol and versed/fentanyl would in general renders a patient between DEEP sedation at the minimum and general anesthesia where the patient is NOT responsive to VERBAL command.

Minimal sedation/anxiolysis and moderate sedation/analgesia/conscious sedation are what I am adovcating for patients undergoing spinal injection procedures.

As an anesethesiologist, I can tell you 2-4 mg of versed plus/minus 25mcg of fentanyl will not render a patient beyond conscious sedation. Patients are responsive to verbal stimuli with this level of "conscious sedation", yet comfortable, relaxed and follow commends to remain still and often have sufficent anterograde amnesia to not remember an unpleasant anxiety-provoking experience.


II.

Quoting from position statement from ASA (article #2),

"Many patients can undergo interventional pain procedures without the need for supplemental sedation in addition to local anesthesia. For most patients who require supplemental sedation, the physician performing the interventional pain procedure(s) can provide moderate (conscious) sedation as part of the procedure. For a limited number of patients a second provider may be required to manage moderate or deep sedation or, in selected cases other anesthesia services.”

So ASA position statement is this: many patients can have interventional procedures without supplemental sedation. For MOST patients who require sedation, conscious sedation should be offered. For some selected patients, additional provider or even anesthesiologists are required.

“Examples of procedures that typically do not require sedation include but are not limited to epidural steroid injections, epidural blood patch, trigger point injections, injections into the shoulder, hip, knee, facet, and sacroiliac joints, and occipital nerve blocks”. I don’t think anyone have issues with trigger points, joint injections, or SIJ injections, etc. IESI and blood patch, typically do not require sedation, but in some patients might.

“Significant anxiety may be an indication for moderate (conscious) sedation or anesthesia services. In addition, procedures that require the patient to remain motionless for a prolonged period of time and/or remain in a painful position may require sedation or anesthesia services”.

“Major nerve/plexus blocks are performed less often in the chronic pain clinic, but the Committee believes that these blocks may more commonly require moderate (conscious) sedation or anesthesia services (e.g., brachial plexus block, sciatic nerve block, and continuous catheter techniques)”.

So ASA position is pretty clear, moderate/conscious sedation should be readily available to patients and provided to them for some common spinal pain procedures, except trigger points, joint injections, or SIJ injections or IESI, etc.


III.

Conscious Sedation FactFinder authorized by 10 physicians, including David O’Brien, Jr., MD; Michael Bunch, MD; Clark C. Smith, MD; Alison Stout, DO; Wade King, MMed; Jeffrey Laseter, MD; Benoy Benny, MD; David J. Kennedy, MD; Nikolai Bogduk, MD; and Andrew Engel, MD.

All but 1 is actually anesthesia-trained, Laseter. Everyone else is PMR-trained. King, Bogduk and Engel are non-anesthesia trained.

So we have 9 non-anesthesia trained, and predominantly PMR-trained pain management physician making recommendation on something they have no experience or training in.

Is it ironic?

PMR physicians without appropriate training in anesthesiology should NOT be offering any type of sedation other than oral benzo. It’s beyond the scope of PMR training and practice.

For the same reason, PMR physicians are not qualified to make medical necessity determination of sedation provided in interventional spinal procedures.

For the same analogy, an anesthesia-trained pain management physician without appropriate training in EMG/NCS should not be making recommendation on medical necessity of EMG/NCS.

Now let’s look at the content of “Factfinder”.

“Cases of neurologic injury have been reported in patients undergoing interventional pain procedures; some were believed to be due to heavy or over-sedation. In these cases, sedation resulted in the inability of the patients to respond to any potential discomfort or paresthesias to warn practitioners”.

“For cervical procedures, an analysis of closed claims involving cervical interlaminar or transforaminal injections revealed that when the patient is heavily sedated during the procedure or unresponsive at the time of injection, there is an increased risk of spinal cord injury.”

So it is talking about of HEAVY/OVER-SEDATION. It is actually defined by ASA in the continuum article #1 as “deep sedation and general anesthesia”.

Yes, ASA does NOT recommend deep sedation/general anesthesia in most if not all spinal pain procedures.

But please do NOT equate deep sedation to moderate/conscious sedation. Studies might have shown risks of complication with deep sedation, but I challenge ANY of you to find any studies to show conscious/moderate sedation lead to significant complications of a spinal procedure due to moderate sedation being offered.

However, it is what exactly the “Factfinder” tried to do in the next paragraph by making this quantum leap,

“If sedation increases the risks associated with interventional pain procedures, does sedation benefit patients?”

Now the so-called “Factfinder” lumped moderate sedation with deep sedation/heavy-sedation/over-sedation into ONE inclusive term, “sedation” and tried to jump to the conclusion that “sedation” is not necessary in general.

To remind you, ASA guideline on sedation and spinal procedures are clear and specific, again quoted below,

“Significant anxiety may be an indication for moderate (conscious) sedation or anesthesia services. In addition, procedures that require the patient to remain motionless for a prolonged period of time and/or remain in a painful position may require sedation or anesthesia services”.

To summarize,

- Risks: while I completely agree deep sedation/over-sedation increases risks of complication in spinal procedures, there are no evidences to suggest conscious sedation increases risks of complications. “Factfinder” tried to make this jump, but instead only weakened its argument. It also tried to discourage using sedation for diagnostic procedures, such as MNBB. In my opinion, one should not be making reliable diagnostic evaluation immediately after the MNBB anyway, whether a patient receives sedation or not, IV or PO. Topical injection of local anesthetics can cause false positive and needle insertion sites can cause enough “injection pain” and lead to false negative. One should make reliable determination of diagnostic value in the 1 day following MNBB if only local anesthetics are used or 3 to 10 days if local plus steroids are used.


- Benefit: “Factfinder” tried to refute the benefit of “sedation” by citing studies showing no change in patient satisfaction. Well, if benefit is only defined by patient satisfaction, then just offer the conscious sedation as an option to patients and let them decide. Furthermore, benefit is defined not only by patient satisfaction, but also medically by reducing vasovagal events, avoiding hypertensive crisis, improving procedure accuracy and safety by keeping patient remain calm and still, etc.


- Alternative: sure, we can offer PO benzo for anxiolytics. It may be enough for some patients, but for some patients in certain procedures may not be enough in terms of level of anxiolysis and unpleasant lingering sedative effect for hours. On the other hand, 2mg of IV versed wears off in 2 hours. At any rate, IV conscious sedation should be offered along with oral anxiolytics as an alternative. Speaking on a personal level, If you, like me have received both of them in the past as a patient, you would not hesitate to choose IV versed over Xanax anytime of day.

In conclusion, I recommend any of you to refer to ASA positional statement instead of this so-called “Factfinder” or even SIS guideline by the same group of PMR physicians.

Remember this, ASA might not have complete authority on the guidelines of interventional spine procedures. However, when it comes to guideline on sedation and anesthesia, no one can argue with ASA on its authoritative power, not me or you as interventional pain physician, not anyone in PMR specialty with no training or experience in anesthesiology, not any surgeon screaming and yelling in operating room, trying to dictate what anesthesiologist sees as the best method to keep patient sedated or anesthetized.

This issue has been fought in court and been determined long ago who has final saying in terms of what anesthetics is most appropriate for a patient undergoing a procedure or surgery.
 

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You won't be convinced based on experience, education, and your training. I hope you never have the complication that lands you in front of a jury.

Oh, you never said if you directly profit from unnecessary and potentially unsafe sedation in your patients.

Also, as an anesthesiologist, you have no training in msk exam, so does your NP or PA see the patient and pick your procedure for you? Or do you just go with ESIX3, IAFJ, MBB,RF, DISCO, SCS,IT PUMP?
 
This is about $$$, not patient comfort.

Also, some patients will have procedures done just to get sedation.

We sedated everyone in fellowship (to make $$$). Now I do everything under local and would never go back.
 
there is something of a wash with regards to pay. insurances are supposed to pay for 99152, but its a whopping 0.25 wRVU....

the wash is that it is invariably longer to do a case with sedation than to do one without.

there is clearly a point of emphasis. to throw back factfinder at you...

“Cases of neurologic injury have been reported in patients undergoing interventional pain procedures; some were believed to be due to heavy or over-sedation. In these cases, sedation resulted in the inability of the patients to respond to any potential discomfort or paresthesias to warn practitioners”.

All but 1 is actually anesthesia-trained, Laseter. Everyone else is PMR-trained.
so... 9 are anesthesia trained?

“Examples of procedures that typically do not require sedation include but are not limited to epidural steroid injections, epidural blood patch, trigger point injections, injections into the shoulder, hip, knee, facet, and sacroiliac joints, and occipital nerve blocks”. I don’t think anyone have issues with trigger points, joint injections, or SIJ injections, etc. IESI and blood patch, typically do not require sedation, but in some patients might.
in summary, these procedures make up the vast majority of the procedures we do in ASC. left out of this list - by ASA and yourself - are essentially only sympathetic blocks, RFA, SCS, and kypho.

if you are arguing sedation is necessary, by providing position papers by individuals who do profit from these procedures, you are not sufficiently justifying sedation on anything other than a unique basis.

of note, this article is retrospective but shows one study of the incidence of vasovagal reaction - exceedingly low in this practice. Adverse events of conscious sedation in ambulatory spine procedures. - PubMed - NCBI



The point is, the option should be offered to the patient if you are qualified and capable of administering conscious IV sedation in your office. If you are not qualified, or comfortable, or concerned about the turn-over efficiency, sure, you don't have to offer it. Whatever you do in your office for your comfort level, it's your call.
this is a contradictory statement. if the option should be offered, then it is not based on your comfort level.
 
You won't be convinced based on experience, education, and your training. I hope you never have the complication that lands you in front of a jury.

Oh, you never said if you directly profit from unnecessary and potentially unsafe sedation in your patients.

Also, as an anesthesiologist, you have no training in msk exam, so does your NP or PA see the patient and pick your procedure for you? Or do you just go with ESIX3, IAFJ, MBB,RF, DISCO, SCS,IT PUMP?

I don't use any NP/PA. I don't think they have any roles in medicine. Usage of NP/PA is about $$$.

But does it matter what I think, NO.

It's about the standard of care.

Sedation of varying types have been and are BEING used in majorities of spinal injection cases done in this country in any given community. I don't think a PMR physician holding a "factfinder" authorized by PMR physicians will convince a jury on the safety and necessity of conscious sedation guidelines authorized by ASA.

On the other hand, in the events of vasovagal reaction, I surely hope you can defend yourself when you should have monitored patient's VS and given appropriate level of sedation to minimize vasovagal reactions.

BTW, conscious sedation has been studied and shown to reduce vasovagal reactions.

"So doc, do you know a patient can develop vasovagal reaction during a spinal injection procedure?
yes, I do.
why didn't you bother to offer conscious sedation and provide appropriate monitor?
well, because I don't think it happens often enough to warrant the usage of conscious sedation and monitor?
so, doc, you don't think it would happen under your hands, so you didn't bother?
yes, it's basically what I'm saying.
so, what about NOW, it actually happened and the patient suffered
well, there's just no studies to show conscious sedation is safe?
conscious sedation is NOT safe? what do you mean?
well, studies have shown "deep sedation" is risky for spinal procedures?
but, yes, doc, you said "conscious sedation" is unsafe?
well, it's what SIS says...
well, but what do you know? Do you have evidence to back up what you just said, conscious sedation is unsafe?
well, I don't have evidences to back it up. But even so, I don't think any type of sedation, including conscious sedation is necessary.
but now the patient suffered because of this vavovagal reaction, which was preventable with a simple conscious sedation and monitoring...
well, I just didn't think it would happen. The odds is so small, and I don't think sedation and monitor are the standard of care...
oh, really, perioperative monitoring and sedation are NOT the standard of care in spinal procedures?
No.
Doc, are you aware the guideline and position statement of ASA on spinal procedure sedation?
Yes,
What does ASA say about it?
It says conscious sedation should be readily available and offered to patients.
Okay, doc, then are you aware how many spinal procedures are done under sedation and monitored in your local ASC?
A lot, but they are being used for financial reasons.
So doc, you are aware that ASA says conscious sedation should be offered to patients at the minimum and you are aware that your local pain docs have been doing spinal procedures under sedation and monitoring?
Yes.
So doc, did you follow the STANDARD OF CARE in this case, either by community standard or ASA guideline?
hmmmm...no...but other guys are doing sedation for money..."


Do you think how weak your arguments are in front of a jury when adverse events happens?

Now copy the conservation and replace "vasovagal event" with "hypertensive crisis leading to CVA/ACS", you would again be put in shame and lose your case.
 
This is about $$$, not patient comfort.

Also, some patients will have procedures done just to get sedation.

We sedated everyone in fellowship (to make $$$). Now I do everything under local and would never go back.

It's about the standard of care.

Sedation of varying types have been and are BEING used in majorities of spinal injection cases done in this country in any given community. I don't think a PMR physician holding a "factfinder" authorized by PMR physicians will convince a jury on the safety and necessity of conscious sedation guidelines authorized by ASA.

On the other hand, in the events of vasovagal reaction, I surely hope you can defend yourself when you should have monitored patient's VS and given appropriate level of sedation to minimize vasovagal reactions.

BTW, conscious sedation has been studied and shown to reduce vasovagal reactions.

"So doc, do you know a patient can develop vasovagal reaction during a spinal injection procedure?
yes, I do.
why didn't you bother to offer conscious sedation and provide appropriate monitor?
well, because I don't think it happens often enough to warrant the usage of conscious sedation and monitor?
so, doc, you don't think it would happen under your hands, so you didn't bother?
yes, it's basically what I'm saying.
so, what about NOW, it actually happened and the patient suffered
well, there's just no studies to show conscious sedation is safe?
conscious sedation is NOT safe? what do you mean?
well, studies have shown "deep sedation" is risky for spinal procedures?
but, yes, doc, you said "conscious sedation" is unsafe?
well, it's what SIS says...
well, but what do you know? Do you have evidence to back up what you just said, conscious sedation is unsafe?
well, I don't have evidences to back it up. But even so, I don't think any type of sedation, including conscious sedation is necessary.
but now the patient suffered because of this vavovagal reaction, which was preventable with a simple conscious sedation and monitoring...
well, I just didn't think it would happen. The odds is so small, and I don't think sedation and monitor are the standard of care...
oh, really, perioperative monitoring and sedation are NOT the standard of care in spinal procedures?
No.
Doc, are you aware the guideline and position statement of ASA on spinal procedure sedation?
Yes,
What does ASA say about it?
It says conscious sedation should be readily available and offered to patients.
Okay, doc, then are you aware how many spinal procedures are done under sedation and monitored in your local ASC?
A lot, but they are being used for financial reasons.
So doc, you are aware that ASA says conscious sedation should be offered to patients at the minimum and you are aware that your local pain docs have been doing spinal procedures under sedation and monitoring?
Yes.
So doc, did you follow the STANDARD OF CARE in this case, either by community standard or ASA guideline?
hmmmm...no...but other guys are doing sedation for money..."


Do you think how weak your arguments are in front of a jury when adverse events happens?

Now copy the conservation and replace "vasovagal event" with "hypertensive crisis leading to CVA/ACS", you would again be put in shame and lose your case.

In your case, one more thing against you:

"so doc, how were you trained?"...
 
I don't use any NP/PA. I don't think they have any roles in medicine. Usage of NP/PA is about $$$.

But does it matter what I think, NO.

It's about the standard of care.

Sedation of varying types have been and are BEING used in majorities of spinal injection cases done in this country in any given community. I don't think a PMR physician holding a "factfinder" authorized by PMR physicians will convince a jury on the safety and necessity of conscious sedation guidelines authorized by ASA.

On the other hand, in the events of vasovagal reaction, I surely hope you can defend yourself when you should have monitored patient's VS and given appropriate level of sedation to minimize vasovagal reactions.

BTW, conscious sedation has been studied and shown to reduce vasovagal reactions.

"So doc, do you know a patient can develop vasovagal reaction during a spinal injection procedure?
yes, I do.
why didn't you bother to offer conscious sedation and provide appropriate monitor?
well, because I don't think it happens often enough to warrant the usage of conscious sedation and monitor?
so, doc, you don't think it would happen under your hands, so you didn't bother?
yes, it's basically what I'm saying.
so, what about NOW, it actually happened and the patient suffered
well, there's just no studies to show conscious sedation is safe?
conscious sedation is NOT safe? what do you mean?
well, studies have shown "deep sedation" is risky for spinal procedures?
but, yes, doc, you said "conscious sedation" is unsafe?
well, it's what SIS says...
well, but what do you know? Do you have evidence to back up what you just said, conscious sedation is unsafe?
well, I don't have evidences to back it up. But even so, I don't think any type of sedation, including conscious sedation is necessary.
but now the patient suffered because of this vavovagal reaction, which was preventable with a simple conscious sedation and monitoring...
well, I just didn't think it would happen. The odds is so small, and I don't think sedation and monitor are the standard of care...
oh, really, perioperative monitoring and sedation are NOT the standard of care in spinal procedures?
No.
Doc, are you aware the guideline and position statement of ASA on spinal procedure sedation?
Yes,
What does ASA say about it?
It says conscious sedation should be readily available and offered to patients.
Okay, doc, then are you aware how many spinal procedures are done under sedation and monitored in your local ASC?
A lot, but they are being used for financial reasons.
So doc, you are aware that ASA says conscious sedation should be offered to patients at the minimum and you are aware that your local pain docs have been doing spinal procedures under sedation and monitoring?
Yes.
So doc, did you follow the STANDARD OF CARE in this case, either by community standard or ASA guideline?
hmmmm...no...but other guys are doing sedation for money..."


Do you think how weak your arguments are in front of a jury when adverse events happens?

Now copy the conservation and replace "vasovagal event" with "hypertensive crisis leading to CVA/ACS", you would again be put in shame and lose your case.

Happy to meet you in front of the jury, but your patients deserve better. Go back to the OR.
 
there is something of a wash with regards to pay. insurances are supposed to pay for 99152, but its a whopping 0.25 wRVU....

the wash is that it is invariably longer to do a case with sedation than to do one without.

there is clearly a point of emphasis. to throw back factfinder at you...



so... 9 are anesthesia trained?

in summary, these procedures make up the vast majority of the procedures we do in ASC. left out of this list - by ASA and yourself - are essentially only sympathetic blocks, RFA, SCS, and kypho.

if you are arguing sedation is necessary, by providing position papers by individuals who do profit from these procedures, you are not sufficiently justifying sedation on anything other than a unique basis.

of note, this article is retrospective but shows one study of the incidence of vasovagal reaction - exceedingly low in this practice. Adverse events of conscious sedation in ambulatory spine procedures. - PubMed - NCBI



this is a contradictory statement. if the option should be offered, then it is not based on your comfort level.

- no, all but 1 authors are PMR physician, only one has any anesthesia background.

- vasovagal events are rare, but not uncommon, and significantly prevented by conscious sedation. However, it's not the point here. The standard of care is doing spinal procedure under sedation OFFERED, either by community standard or ASA guideline. If an adverse event happens when you follow the standard of care, it's defensible. When a rare adverse event happens and you did NOT follow standard of care, the rarity of the event is a moot point.

- replace vasovagal with hypertensive crisis, etc.
 
It's about the standard of care.

Sedation of varying types have been and are BEING used in majorities of spinal injection cases done in this country in any given community. I don't think a PMR physician holding a "factfinder" authorized by PMR physicians will convince a jury on the safety and necessity of conscious sedation guidelines authorized by ASA.

On the other hand, in the events of vasovagal reaction, I surely hope you can defend yourself when you should have monitored patient's VS and given appropriate level of sedation to minimize vasovagal reactions.

BTW, conscious sedation has been studied and shown to reduce vasovagal reactions.

"So doc, do you know a patient can develop vasovagal reaction during a spinal injection procedure?
yes, I do.
why didn't you bother to offer conscious sedation and provide appropriate monitor?
well, because I don't think it happens often enough to warrant the usage of conscious sedation and monitor?
so, doc, you don't think it would happen under your hands, so you didn't bother?
yes, it's basically what I'm saying.
so, what about NOW, it actually happened and the patient suffered
well, there's just no studies to show conscious sedation is safe?
conscious sedation is NOT safe? what do you mean?
well, studies have shown "deep sedation" is risky for spinal procedures?
but, yes, doc, you said "conscious sedation" is unsafe?
well, it's what SIS says...
well, but what do you know? Do you have evidence to back up what you just said, conscious sedation is unsafe?
well, I don't have evidences to back it up. But even so, I don't think any type of sedation, including conscious sedation is necessary.
but now the patient suffered because of this vavovagal reaction, which was preventable with a simple conscious sedation and monitoring...
well, I just didn't think it would happen. The odds is so small, and I don't think sedation and monitor are the standard of care...
oh, really, perioperative monitoring and sedation are NOT the standard of care in spinal procedures?
No.
Doc, are you aware the guideline and position statement of ASA on spinal procedure sedation?
Yes,
What does ASA say about it?
It says conscious sedation should be readily available and offered to patients.
Okay, doc, then are you aware how many spinal procedures are done under sedation and monitored in your local ASC?
A lot, but they are being used for financial reasons.
So doc, you are aware that ASA says conscious sedation should be offered to patients at the minimum and you are aware that your local pain docs have been doing spinal procedures under sedation and monitoring?
Yes.
So doc, did you follow the STANDARD OF CARE in this case, either by community standard or ASA guideline?
hmmmm...no...but other guys are doing sedation for money..."


Do you think how weak your arguments are in front of a jury when adverse events happens?

Now copy the conservation and replace "vasovagal event" with "hypertensive crisis leading to CVA/ACS", you would again be put in shame and lose your case.

In your case, one more thing against you:

"so doc, how were you trained?"...

I was trained wrong. VV happens seldom, but when it does I like for my patients to tell me “I’m feeling dizzy.”

My 2c- if a patient requires iv sedation for MBB or ESI -or really anything but B/L RF or SCS trial- that is not a patient I want to be doing procedures on.

The great thing about being on my own is I get to choose my procedure candidates very selectively and it is night and day compared to fellowship. No more smokers smelling like rags paging me at all hours saying they’re paralyzed after ESI or my SIJ “hit a nerve” no more ED calls for “urinary incontinence” ie. Addicts pissing themselves or just making it up...life is better.

I am not kidding when I tell you we had about 15% of the series of 3 crew who came ONLY for the sedation. They told us this themselves. No thanks.

But good for you for no midlevelz and homeopathic opioid doses, that’s good stuff
 
the standard of care is not to offer sedation for run of the mill injection.

and the standard of care says nothing about the fact that you believe that it is the patient's decision on sedation, as you stated we "should" offer sedation for all patients - and by extension, all injections.

vasovagal reactions are rare. see the retrospective article i posted. not the best of evidence, but shows that incidence of vasovagal reactions to be very low. less than 1%. that is rare.
 
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This conversation is so annoying to me. I only use sedation for stim cases and I've yet to have any issues. During residency and fellowship we always did sedation, except at VA facilities. It is easier and safer to use local only.

Most of my procedures (in keeping with 99% of everyone who does pain) are epidurals, MBB, RFA, and peripheral joints, and there is ZERO rationale for sedating a pt for any of those procedures. I find it completely laughable that anyone thinks L4-S1 MBB requires sedation, especially MAC. Providers like you are going to ruin it for everyone else...
 
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the standard of care is not to offer sedation for run of the mill injection.

and the standard of care says nothing about the fact that you believe that it is the patient's decision on sedation, as you stated we "should" offer sedation for all patients - and by extension, all injections.

vasovagal reactions are rare. see the retrospective article i posted. not the best of evidence, but shows that incidence of vasovagal reactions to be very low. less than 1%. that is rare.

- I didn't say we should offer sedation to ALL procedures. I only offer CONSCIOUS sedation to SPINAL injections, not SIJ, not joint injections, not peripheral nerve blocks. But it doesn't matter what I said. Read ASA positional statement. It says these the ones I listed above in addition to ESI don't need conscious sedation. The need for conscious sedation for other spinal procedures is determined on a case-by-case.

- ASA position statement: Specifically, ASA says "Significant anxiety may be an indication for moderate (conscious) sedation or anesthesia services".

- Standard of care: in the proximity of my local community, 70% of spinal procedures are done in ASC under some types of light sedation to deep sedation with anesthesia present.

- Sedation reducing vasovagal reaction: let me quote you a much stronger study that shows conscious sedation reduces vasovagal reaction with statistic significance.

The use of moderate sedation for the secondary prevention of adverse vasovagal reactions.
Kennedy DJ1, Schneider B, Smuck M, Plastaras CT.
Author information

Abstract
BACKGROUND:
Vasovagal reactions can occur with spine procedures and may result in premature procedure termination or other adverse events.

OBJECTIVE:
To evaluate if moderate sedation is an effective means of secondary prevention for vasovagal reactions.

METHODS:
Prospectively collected data on 6,364 consecutive spine injections.

RESULTS:
Of the 6,364 spine injections, 6,150 spine injections were done without moderate sedation and resulted in 205 vasovagal reactions (3.3% [95% confidence interval {CI} 2.9-3.8%]). One hundred thirty-four spine procedures were performed on patients that had a history of prior vasovagal reaction during a spine procedure. Of these, 90 procedures were performed without moderate sedation, and 21/90 (23.3% [95% CI 15.2-32.1%]) were complicated by a repeat vasovagal reaction. None of 44 repeat injections that utilized moderate sedation experienced a repeat vasovagal reaction (0% [95% CI 0-9.6%]) (χ(2)  = 12.17, P < 0.00048). The rate of vasovagal reaction in patients with a history of prior reaction undergoing repeat injection without conscious sedation was significantly higher (23.3% [95% CI 15.2-32.1%]) than the rate in patients with no such history (3.0% [95% CI 2.6-3.5%] [χ(2)  = 113.4, P < 1.78E-26]).

CONCLUSIONS:
A history of vasovagal reaction is a strong predictor of experiencing a vasovagal reaction on subsequent procedures. No vasovagal reactions occurred with the use of moderate sedation, including in the 44 injections in patients that had a history of vasovagal reaction during spine procedures. The overall low rate of vasovagal reactions is low, and greater benefits of moderate sedation were observed when utilized as secondary prevention of repeat vasovagal reactions.
 

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This conversation is so annoying to me. I only use sedation for stim cases and I've yet to have any issues. During residency and fellowship we always did sedation, except at VA facilities. It is easier and safer to use local only.

Most of my procedures (in keeping with 99% of everyone who does pain) are epidurals, MBB, RFA, and peripheral joints, and there is ZERO rationale for sedating a pt for any of those procedures. I find it completely laughable that anyone thinks L4-S1 MBB requires sedation, especially MAC. Providers like you are going to ruin it for everyone else...

- I said MAC is NOT required for routine cases.
- you obviously haven't read what I wrote above about risk, benefit and alternatives of different type of sedation vs. no sedation.
- we are physicians, not providers, hold you to that standard.
 
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I was trained wrong. VV happens seldom, but when it does I like for my patients to tell me “I’m feeling dizzy.”

My 2c- if a patient requires iv sedation for MBB or ESI -or really anything but B/L RF or SCS trial- that is not a patient I want to be doing procedures on.

The great thing about being on my own is I get to choose my procedure candidates very selectively and it is night and day compared to fellowship. No more smokers smelling like rags paging me at all hours saying they’re paralyzed after ESI or my SIJ “hit a nerve” no more ED calls for “urinary incontinence” ie. Addicts pissing themselves or just making it up...life is better.

I am not kidding when I tell you we had about 15% of the series of 3 crew who came ONLY for the sedation. They told us this themselves. No thanks.

But good for you for no midlevelz and homeopathic opioid doses, that’s good stuff

Everyone gets my whole spiel in pre-procedure consultation appointment, including risk, benefit and alternatives of conscious sedation. I have personally turned away 1 patient who insisted on using propofol for spinal injection because she was knocked out in her prior procedures.

I had a patient recently (a veteran, tough guy with laceration injury to groin, chronic CRPS patient of 30 years with lumbar spondylosis). He got LMNBB a few times without conscious sedation. He dealt with his anxiety by talking him out during LMNBB. I had to ask him to stop talking so I could focus on his procedure. About one year later he needed a LSB, I offered him conscious sedation with versed. He was much more comfortable. Saw him one week later for post-procedure consult, the first thing he said to me was next time when I am doing back injection please give me something to take the edge off like the most recent injection (LSB). He never complained about LMNBB without sedation, but once he had LSB with conscious sedation, he did not want to go back doing spinal procedures without it.

Yes, I agree. You can choose how and whom you will inject on in your PP. In fact, I don't offer injection to my new patients until I get two or three f/u visits with the patient for me to understand their personality and expectation.

On the other hand, I don't think it's professional to NOT offer consultation to discuss R/B/A of conscious sedation simply because you do NOT offer it. Patients have the right to know what options are available when majority of other pain management physicians are offering it. If they choose to have the procedure done by someone else for the reason of sedation, then let them walk away to someone else. We owe to patients for the seek of informed consent.
 
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Here is my textbook. Sounds like you might just be a massive overutilizer.
 
Board certified anesthesiologist here, practice with two other board certified anesthesiologists and all three are boarded in pain. As a group we do 800 injections a month or so. We don’t offer sedation. We also have the best online ratings in our market. We also surveyed patients and asked what hurt worse, IV sticks they’ve gotten in the past vs the injection they just had and the IV was more painful or about the same in the overwhelming majority. I truly feel if you find patients needing or wanting sedation for procedures then you need to see what you’re doing in procedures that are different from some of the rest of us that make them hurt or take a hard look at your bedside manner. Also, I would welcome anyone who would like to come see if in action, maybe you can pick up some tricks.
 
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Happy to meet you in front of the jury, but your patients deserve better. Go back to the OR.

actually, steve, if you haven't realized, whenever you step into your so-called "procedure suite", you have stepped into OR.
 
Make money to hide lack of needle skillz.

Got it.

make money on what? doing 1/2 of procedures by offering something to your patients so they can feel more comfortable and potentially avoiding complications from anxiety?
 
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Here is my textbook. Sounds like you might just be a massive overutilizer.


so now you are using your TEXTBOOK? your "factfinder" isn't strongly enough to support your weak argument.

Fine, take a look at your "textbook", 4th paragraph down on left page, it basically says that practitioners may choose to offer conscious sedation if patient cannot co-operate for various reasons.

Again, look at ASA position statement. Need to say no more.
 
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