PA-C to DO bridge?

[redroses1100]

a 22 on the MCAT!?! I could take the test drunk and get that. I dont know why Lecom has all these shortcut programs. If anything the depth of medical knowledge is getting larger and requiring more school.

I have no doubts that some PAs can be excellent physicians we have two in my class and they are great students, but if people want to do it they should just do it like everyone else.

It is hilarious to see people fight over a tittle ..... hahahahaha

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[MLT2MT2DO]

It is hilarious to see people fight over a tittle ..... hahahahaha

Not nearly as hilarious as someone necro bumping a thread without adding anything relevant.

 

[dozitgetchahi]

Sounds like you had some solid training, but this definitely isn't universal. The PA who was rotating with my team on Internal Medicine never had to take call and never even did an H&P. It wasn't that the PA was lazy or didn't want to help the team, mind you - they just weren't held to the same expectations.

My wife (a nurse) used to work in a heme/onc practice with a PA who didn't even know how to put in an IV. The quality of training at some of these programs must be atrocious.

 

[MedicineMan99]

I should just point out here that there are 3-year DO programs and even a 3-year MD program in America for those who want to do primary care. So, if you take into consideration all the clinical experience a PA has had, it's even better than a typical applicant applying for a 3-year MD/DO.

 

[Makati2008]

My wife (a nurse) used to work in a heme/onc practice with a PA who didn't even know how to put in an IV. The quality of training at some of these programs must be atrocious.

1.)You base ones training off not putting in IV's bro smh.
2.)The PA probably didn't want to put it in and faked dumb to have a NURSE put the IV in.(I can count the number of times I have put an IV in on one hand but I sure as hell can do a central line, IO, etc...can the nurse do that lol.)
3.)Again unless you are/were a PA you have very little basis to make such claims.

BTW-I know plenty of docs that don't put IV's in and have horrid times attempting so does that make their training poor?

 

[MO-PAs]

When they go through the normal matriculation process and are accepted then they can apply for the fast track program and be accepted to the PA/NP program that allows them to skip clinical rotations that they have previous experience in. Seems like there's only one reasons why the school would not have them compete against the other applicants.

1. The school doesn't believe that most PAs/NPs can compete with normal applicants when it comes to grades and MCAT scores.

The competition is one of the reasons why US medical schools have such a low rate of graduates not graduating. Even for DO schools the average gpa is 3.5 for matriculation and 26 for MCAT.

I would be a 100% for this program if they competed against the other applicants. The admissions committee is still going to be very impressed with their experience, but they will also have to balance it with their grades and MCAT. If the program does this I would think that at least 1% of the PA/NP would successfully compete against normal applicants which based on 1,000 applicants is still 10 PA/NP being accepted. This would also give more credibility to the program and then more DO and MD schools would be willing to experiment with it in their schools.

First let me start off by saying that I do agree that PA-C should compete against other students for admission. In addition to that, I'm a current PA student completing my clinical rotations. I completed four years pre-med in an undergraduate program, took the MCAT, and decided against medical school at that time in my life. (graduated 2010 so I'm not talking 30 years ago here) My GPA was a 3.7 and my MCAT score was a 29 (10/9/10), and my GRE (required for PA school) was 1300. At this point in my career I'm not sure if I'll go on to medical school at some point in the future or if I'll be completely satisfied with the amount of responsibility and kind of patient care that I can deliver as a PA.

Further, I have already completed three rotations and in every one of them I have worked along MS3/MS4 and 1st-3rd year residents. Our rotations (the core ones - IM, FM x2, EM, OBGYN, PEDS, SURG) are six weeks long compared to the four week long rotations for MS3/MS4's (at least from the surrounding med schools such as Mizzou, AT Still, UMKC). This means before we graduate from PA school we have 18 weeks of primary care (IM + FM) rotations.

My point being that choosing to be a PA isn't directly correlated with unable to get into a medical school (I have many friends in med school with lower MCATs and GPAs than my own) and that our year of clinical core rotations is very similar. Just food for thought from someone contemplating making the bridge.

 

[Siggy]

My wife (a nurse) used to work in a heme/onc practice with a PA who didn't even know how to put in an IV. The quality of training at some of these programs must be atrocious.

OMG, a mid-level provider doesn't know how to do a procedure that 99.999999% of the time is done by a lab tech or a nurse? I graduate from medical school in less than a month and I can count the number of times I've put an IV in. I'm going to be a TERRIBLE physician because I have almost zero experience doing a simple procedure that physicians almost never do.

 

[Siggy]

Further, I have already completed three rotations and in every one of them I have worked along MS3/MS4 and 1st-3rd year residents. Our rotations (the core ones - IM, FM x2, EM, OBGYN, PEDS, SURG) are six weeks long compared to the four week long rotations for MS3/MS4's (at least from the surrounding med schools such as Mizzou, AT Still, UMKC). This means before we graduate from PA school we have 18 weeks of primary care (IM + FM) rotations.

...and my medical school required 3 months of IM and 1 month of FM during 3rd year as well as 1 month of medical sub-I during 4th year. Thats 20 weeks, in addition to any elective rotations that students want to put in. 20 vs 18! Put that in your pipe and smoke it! I should also note that no one else cares about measuring the number of weeks on specific rotations.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

...and my medical school required 3 months of IM and 1 month of FM during 3rd year as well as 1 month of medical sub-I during 4th year. Thats 20 weeks, in addition to any elective rotations that students want to put in. 20 vs 18! Put that in your pipe and smoke it! I should also note that no one else cares about measuring the number of weeks on specific rotations.

I'm not going to form an opinion about the courses NP's take because everyone tells me that clinical experience outweighs the intricate details of basic sciences since it's post-Step 1 that people really start learning to be doctors.

Therefore, one opinion I will form is that NP's should 120% revamp their clinical rotations to make it comparable to PA school, especially in how much time they spend on the hospital floors. I think then, NP's will enhance their reputation.

 

[AnonymousD.O.]

weren't there already programs like this at LECOM http://lecom.edu/college-medicine.php/Accelerated-Physician-Assistant-Pathway-APAP/49/2205/612/2395 What is the difference

 

[primadonna22274]

APAP is really quite different from PCSP (Primary Care Scholars Program). Both are 3 years. APAP takes M1 and M2 exactly the same as the traditional 4-yr pathways (and can select any of the learning tracks). Between M1 and M2 the APAP folks do 2 primary care (core) rotations and take those shelf exams, then return for M2 with everyone else. After M2, we all take level 1 boards and then begins the whirlwind clinical year of 13 mos continuously, no vacation. During that time we finish the remaining 4 cores and shelf exams, take step 2 CE and PE, apply and interview for residency, and complete remaining required rotations and electives. It's stressful but not unmanageable. I've even worked clinically quite a bit when I'm home, especially the last 5 mos (I also worked clinically an average of 1-2 Saturdays a month during M1 and M2).
PCSP attends didactics through March of M2. They have an accelerated preclinical curriculum that begins after anatomy is finished (about October of first year) and is largely independent study. I don't think they do rotations the first summer but they do have required seminars then. I believe they start their clinical rotations in April of 2nd year and go straight through to graduation the end of 3rd year. I don't think they have vacation either. Their timeline for boards and applications/interviews is similar to ours, but they are restricted to osteopathic FM programs.

 

[Hauskhat]

Whoa! Holy moly! All of the assumptions about PA matriculation, and qualifications! Have any of you taken a class alongside PA students in your Medical schools? We have many classes with the DOs at ours, and we have a minimum pass qualification 5% higher than the DOs do - in the same class! on the same tests!!

I once had dinner with a friend of mine who introduced me to a medical student. The MS said "Oh you are going in to PA school, I hear that it is really competitive."
"Yeah!" I said. "I'm thinking about just taking the darn physics class and applying to med school, instead" Implying it would be less competitive, and hoping she had a sense of humor.
"Oh, no," She said. "You have to be the whole package to get into medical school."
Really... ? Huh... And that's when I checked out of the conversation. You see, I was applying to the same school she was in (different program, obviously), and I've seen the application requirements for both programs. The PA prereqs were about 12 line items longer than the DOs'. But she didn't know that.

Anyway, before any med-students get all worried about some unqualified, slack-jawed, mid-level imbecile taking your valuable places in a DO/MD program, maybe you should take some time to familiarize yourselves with what a typical PA student application looks like, and then add the number of years they've been practicing medicine to that application. If anything, by naming some spots PA-bridge spots, they are removing some competition for you. If you compare the two applications, I'm willing to bet they would have beat you out anyway had they gone the traditional route.

 

[GUH]

Cool, necrothread!

Whoa! Holy moly! All of the assumptions about PA matriculation, and qualifications! Have any of you taken a class alongside PA students in your Medical schools? We have many classes with the DOs at ours, and we have a minimum pass qualification 5% higher than the DOs do - in the same class! on the same tests!!
Anyway, before any med-students get all worried about some unqualified, slack-jawed, mid-level imbecile taking your valuable places in a DO/MD program, maybe you should take some time to familiarize yourselves with what a typical PA student application looks like, and then add the number of years they've been practicing medicine to that application. If anything, by naming some spots PA-bridge spots, they are removing some competition for you. If you compare the two applications, I'm willing to bet they would have beat you out anyway had they gone the traditional route.

1) You can't prove that the average PA student would beat the average DO student in academics. It's impossible to compare since most PA programs do not use the MCAT, and most which do refuse to post average matriculant scores. The USC program average was 26 for interviewees, however, which would be on the lower side for California DO school matriculants, but that's apples and oranges.
2) Nobody here made the argument that PA students are less intelligent than DO students to begin with. Most of the concerns are about providing a shortcut to a full medical license.

 

[shibby1111]

med school curriculum/academic load and PA school curriculum/academic load are far different. Even with respect to duration of each school: 4 years vs 2 years - it's not simply twice the material. Med students learn in 5 months the equivalent of what PA students learn 10 months.

 

[OCDEMS]

If it makes any difference in the argument, the few PAs at my school freaked out the same as everyone else in the first few weeks of MS1. I remember casually hearing once, "Yeah dude, I don't know about you, but we didn't cover any of the anatomy in that level of detail at my school." I'll leave out the specific anatomical region because I think it'll lead to unneccesary condemnation of PAs, who in my opinion are skilled professionals with a unique role on the healthcare team. No one is saying they're not incredibly smart people, but nothing is quite like medical school except, well, medical school. Don't get me wrong, the few I've met tend to be high performers and they're going to make excellent physicians, but the curriculum is longer and supposedly more grueling for a reason.

 

[primadonna22274]

I learned quite a lot of anatomy in PA school but I can say without question it was FAR less and in much less detail than my med school anatomy. We also never touched on Neuroanatomy in PA school (some, but not all programs teach this) and it was a freestanding course in med school. I thought to some degree we learned it in much more detail in med school because I was at a DO school where MSK and autonomics are king--but really we hit every system that hard, and reviewed it again with each system block. I still have brain farts when I forget something simple when the OB is pimping me during the delivery--what are the muscles that make up the levator ani?--but I know my anatomy far better now. Helped that we had outstanding faculty in the anatomy department at LECOM.