H
Hypochondriac
I'm surprised that no one mentions anything about Otago Medical School, when it's got a long history, a fabulous faculty and facilities comparable to some of the best institutions in the world! Why? WHY?
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Two reasons:
1) You require one year of Healthsci in their university before you can even get into the medical program there
2) NZ is very strict in the number of internship positions it has, and there are very few if not zero spots left over for International students...Australia is a much larger country and therefore can accomodate any Internationals that wish to stay.
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Some of the RMO's at my hospital are Otago and Auckland grads. Perhaps New Zealand will become a destination for the foreign student in a few years. I remember hearing that they are contemplating introducing a graduate stream to run side by side with the undergraduate course, a la UofMelbourne.
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Yeah that could be possible....but the truth of the matter is that right now they don't have the internship capacity to accomodate international students...even if they did most would end up coming to Australia a la what NZ grads do currently.
Also NZ is a big destination for Malaysians as they are out of highschool anyway, and they are guaranteed an internship in M'sia anyway...
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I'm a 5th year student at Auckland (finished my last exam about six hours ago, incidentally, just short cases to go) and thought I might add my two cents.
There are currently 120 government-subsidised places available at either medical school, of which a certain percentage is protected for alternate admissions candidates (i.e. completed another degree prior to application) and Maori and Pacific Island students (who have a separate entry scheme). An additional 10 places will be funded from 2004 for 'rural' students. Anyhow, at Auckland we also take about 30 fee-paying Malaysian students from 4th year onwards (the first clinical year).
Our particular class is the largest to date, with about 170 students in total (good old attrition). This has made things quite difficult in terms of clinical placements - the school has had to outsource to an increasing number of peripheral hospitals for our final year placements. The other issue is jobs - due to a variety of factors, for the first time in at least several years there weren't enough jobs to go around. In fact, in at least one centre job offers were withdrawn from Malysian IMUs, so that local students would have jobs. Which is very interesting.
The number of graduates going to Australia seems to be dropping in recent years as well - the bottom line is that with the new collective contract here, working conditions and pay aren't all that different from Aussie, at least not as much as they have been in the past. It's still an option, mind you, but equally if not more competitive than sticking around here.
I have heard rumours that Otago are planning a graduate stream, but don't know of any plans to offer the same at Auckland. Apparently there is an international student admission scheme in place, though I don't imagine there would be many more than one or two spots each year. We seem to be a fairly popular elective destination, though, and it's nice to see the odd student from elsewhere.
There are currently 120 government-subsidised places available at either medical school, of which a certain percentage is protected for alternate admissions candidates (i.e. completed another degree prior to application) and Maori and Pacific Island students (who have a separate entry scheme). An additional 10 places will be funded from 2004 for 'rural' students. Anyhow, at Auckland we also take about 30 fee-paying Malaysian students from 4th year onwards (the first clinical year).
Our particular class is the largest to date, with about 170 students in total (good old attrition). This has made things quite difficult in terms of clinical placements - the school has had to outsource to an increasing number of peripheral hospitals for our final year placements. The other issue is jobs - due to a variety of factors, for the first time in at least several years there weren't enough jobs to go around. In fact, in at least one centre job offers were withdrawn from Malysian IMUs, so that local students would have jobs. Which is very interesting.
The number of graduates going to Australia seems to be dropping in recent years as well - the bottom line is that with the new collective contract here, working conditions and pay aren't all that different from Aussie, at least not as much as they have been in the past. It's still an option, mind you, but equally if not more competitive than sticking around here.
I have heard rumours that Otago are planning a graduate stream, but don't know of any plans to offer the same at Auckland. Apparently there is an international student admission scheme in place, though I don't imagine there would be many more than one or two spots each year. We seem to be a fairly popular elective destination, though, and it's nice to see the odd student from elsewhere.
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KevinL,
Don't get me wrong I think that NZ is a great place to study even live if the chance came up esp. once you have done your post graduate training....
But the way the situation is now esp. with the internships is turning away a lot of internationals (esp. the non north american ones) b/c when they graduate they won't be able to stay if they wish to do so.
The reality is that New Zealand does have a doctor shortage!! Which is why if you go to their immigration webpage it's very easy to get a PR as a doctor because it's listed in the shortage occupations list.
So if anyone wants to work there the best route is to get your training in Australia and then go there (esp. since it's all recognised), b/c at the current time it's much easier to do all of this in Australia as an international than it is in NZ
Don't get me wrong I think that NZ is a great place to study even live if the chance came up esp. once you have done your post graduate training....
But the way the situation is now esp. with the internships is turning away a lot of internationals (esp. the non north american ones) b/c when they graduate they won't be able to stay if they wish to do so.
The reality is that New Zealand does have a doctor shortage!! Which is why if you go to their immigration webpage it's very easy to get a PR as a doctor because it's listed in the shortage occupations list.
So if anyone wants to work there the best route is to get your training in Australia and then go there (esp. since it's all recognised), b/c at the current time it's much easier to do all of this in Australia as an international than it is in NZ
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You could easily substitute Aus and NZ for US and Can and the exact same situation would occur!
Incidentally, Singapore is actively recruiting for interns, so a great experience is to be had after graduation if you want to spend some time in Singapore.
H
Hypochondriac
Otago is very very well-respected in New Zealand and in Australia. Only top-notch students in New Zealand could get into its medicine programme. However, anyone here has first-hand experience working alongside Otago graduates, or under the care of an Otago physician?
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yeah that's the thing...the good thing is that this year Singapore recognizes the Aussie degree...hopefully this will last till after graduation.
In fact as far as I know there are some other countries in Asia where you can get your internship (but don't pay quite as much as Australia)
-Malaysia
-Hong Kong
-Taiwan
-Thailand
From what I understand as long as you have done an internship recognized by Austraila and your degree is from there you are licensed to become an RMO.
The only negative thing I've heard about Singapore so far is that it's really expensive to get a car there..
H
Hypochondriac
It's impossible for anyone educationed outside HK to obtain an internship position in HK! I can tell you, the chance of getting one is ZERO. Even fresh graduates in Hk become jobless the moment they graduate from Med schools because there's simply no internship positions for their own local graduates. To get one in HK as a non-local? FAT CHANCE!
H
Hypochondriac
It doesn't matter whether you're a harvard graduate or an oxford graduate, the chance to become a HK intern is still zero.
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The reason I posted those countries is because there are international students in my class who are from those countries...and they have told me that they believe it's possible to get an internship there.
That being said I can offer you a couple of reasons why this is probably the case...as you know in Asian countries its more about connections than your true marks...so perhaps these ppl. have connections and thus know they will get in.
Also the other countries (other than Singapore/M'sia) would probably require that you learn some Cantonese/Mandarin to get along well there.
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Go Otago! 
I'm a 3rd year about to sit my finals in a week. Unlike Kevin's rather cosy 170, my class has (I'm almost ashamed to say it 200 students in it.
Otago has deals with the Malaysian and Saudi Arabian governments, these students enter the class from year 1 (not year 4 as in Auckland?). I only know of 2 international students (excluding Australians) who are not government sponsored - these are American high school graduates who didn't want to 'waste' time in america getting a medical degree. There may be more... it's not really a topic that comes up.
I don't believe clinical placement is much of a problem for Otago med school as we have three clinical schools centered in the three largest cities in NZ after auckland (Wellington, Christchurch and Dunedin). After our preclinical years we are seperated into three groups of ~65 to enter these clinical schools. Kevin is probably in a much better position to comment on clinical logistics than I however.
Otago is also completely 'revamping' it's curriculum (as of 2006). I don't know if it's a good idea or not.
Good points being : half a year of research time, dramatically increased clinical exposure, graduate entry directly into 3rd year (which as of 2007, 3rd year will be a 'clinical' year).
Bad points being : I'm somewhat of a sucker for traditional teaching... I think the 'big picture' might be lost when teaching is mainly on a case by case basis.
http://healthsci.otago.ac.nz/division/medicine/newpathway/index.htm
Also I've experienced the inept fumblings of some departments towards PBL and it isn't pretty (Reproduction/ Development -> pregnancy case.. follow a pregnant woman around.. go home, read an embryology textbook or two. We won't tell you what you need or don't need to know. Apparently this is teaching us to think for ourselves and not be spoonfed.)
Conversely Clinical Biochemistry PBL and Systems integration (pbl) is excellent. The whole pregnancy case has just left me bitter in the run-up to exams though
I'm a 3rd year about to sit my finals in a week. Unlike Kevin's rather cosy 170, my class has (I'm almost ashamed to say it
200 students in it.Otago has deals with the Malaysian and Saudi Arabian governments, these students enter the class from year 1 (not year 4 as in Auckland?). I only know of 2 international students (excluding Australians) who are not government sponsored - these are American high school graduates who didn't want to 'waste' time in america getting a medical degree. There may be more... it's not really a topic that comes up.
I don't believe clinical placement is much of a problem for Otago med school as we have three clinical schools centered in the three largest cities in NZ after auckland (Wellington, Christchurch and Dunedin). After our preclinical years we are seperated into three groups of ~65 to enter these clinical schools. Kevin is probably in a much better position to comment on clinical logistics than I however.
Otago is also completely 'revamping' it's curriculum (as of 2006). I don't know if it's a good idea or not.
Good points being : half a year of research time, dramatically increased clinical exposure, graduate entry directly into 3rd year (which as of 2007, 3rd year will be a 'clinical' year).
Bad points being : I'm somewhat of a sucker for traditional teaching... I think the 'big picture' might be lost when teaching is mainly on a case by case basis.
http://healthsci.otago.ac.nz/division/medicine/newpathway/index.htm
Also I've experienced the inept fumblings of some departments towards PBL and it isn't pretty (Reproduction/ Development -> pregnancy case.. follow a pregnant woman around.. go home, read an embryology textbook or two. We won't tell you what you need or don't need to know. Apparently this is teaching us to think for ourselves and not be spoonfed.)
Conversely Clinical Biochemistry PBL and Systems integration (pbl) is excellent. The whole pregnancy case has just left me bitter in the run-up to exams though
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I've never actually understood how many medical students there are at Otago - I had assumed they had roughly the same number as we did up here. Unlike Otago, our class stays together for the clinical years so space is a bit of an issue. We're the largest clinical class to date, though the year two below me is about 150 without the Malaysian intake (long story).
In the first two clinical years, students are split up between the three large hospitals in Auckland and one in Hamilton (a bit over an hour's drive to the south). Currently you still have to be based out of the grafton campus for things like teaching/exams, but Middlemore and Waikato hospitals both seem to be moving towards becoming fully-fledged clinical schools like the Otago system.
It can become a bit of a space issue at the moment though, as any any given point there may be a third year (clinical methods), fourth year, fifth year, trainee intern, NZREX candidates and overseas elective students present. The worst situation I've been in was where there was an NZREX candidate, a trainee intern, a fifth year and two fourth year students all on the same team - which is why I'm doing my final year in Hamilton where overcrowding issues aren't as bad as they are at the Auckland hospitals.
The med school is getting accredited again next year, so they're doing a fair amount of stuff at the moment with regards to curriculum and services (notably, refurbishing the cafeteria they were meant to do when I started in 1998). I haven't come across any problem-based learning, so I can't really comment but they've certainly moved to a systems-based rather than topic-based curriculum in the pre-clinical years (with perhaps a research requirement in the pipeline, I can't recall), and they've definately been cutting back on lecture time in the clinical years.
I can see them widening the entry criteria in coming years, but as the current facilities can't really cope with the numbers at least here in Auckland, foreign applicants might be left out for the time being. I do know of at least a few students who have managed entry via the alternative admissions scheme, so at least that seems to be one option (no guarantee, of course).
In the first two clinical years, students are split up between the three large hospitals in Auckland and one in Hamilton (a bit over an hour's drive to the south). Currently you still have to be based out of the grafton campus for things like teaching/exams, but Middlemore and Waikato hospitals both seem to be moving towards becoming fully-fledged clinical schools like the Otago system.
It can become a bit of a space issue at the moment though, as any any given point there may be a third year (clinical methods), fourth year, fifth year, trainee intern, NZREX candidates and overseas elective students present. The worst situation I've been in was where there was an NZREX candidate, a trainee intern, a fifth year and two fourth year students all on the same team - which is why I'm doing my final year in Hamilton where overcrowding issues aren't as bad as they are at the Auckland hospitals.
The med school is getting accredited again next year, so they're doing a fair amount of stuff at the moment with regards to curriculum and services (notably, refurbishing the cafeteria they were meant to do when I started in 1998). I haven't come across any problem-based learning, so I can't really comment but they've certainly moved to a systems-based rather than topic-based curriculum in the pre-clinical years (with perhaps a research requirement in the pipeline, I can't recall), and they've definately been cutting back on lecture time in the clinical years.
I can see them widening the entry criteria in coming years, but as the current facilities can't really cope with the numbers at least here in Auckland, foreign applicants might be left out for the time being. I do know of at least a few students who have managed entry via the alternative admissions scheme, so at least that seems to be one option (no guarantee, of course).
H
Hypochondriac
huh? What do you mean by "the med school is getting accredited again next year"? Hasn't it always been an accredited institution in NZ and Oz?
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Originally posted by pitman
Don't forget the one about it being a police state
But NZ potential sounds cool, will certainly spend time there while in Aus. to see if that option remains attractive over the years..
-pitman
Yeah that too.
And the no gum chewing Pitman if you have a previous degree let me suggest something to you. Go to the NZ website and see if you qualify for a PR, if you do then I would suggest you apply for it.
You will get it pretty easily and it wil not effect ur status as an international student at all (at any Australian uni since you are a NZ PR not a NZ citizen) and after you complete your internship in Aus you can then apply for a residency position in NZ...there are more of these to go around than internships and since u r a PR (and an Aussie grad) you have a good shot at them .
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Mind you, it depends on the residency to some extent - at the moment, it almost seems as if you can just put up your hand after two years in the field, someone waves a magic wand, and you're magically a medical registrar. Other programmes are notoriously difficult to get entry into such as plastic surgery or opthalmology with very few positions opening up each year.
The medical school was last accreditated (by the Australian Medical Council) in 1995, that lasts until the end of 2005. I'm pretty sure the re-accreditation process starts next year, as they're rushing through plenty of faculty improvements and changes in preparation.
Just in passing, we do seem to get a fair number of foreign doctors in first-year positions (especially at Waikato hospital for some arcane reason). Mainly from Australia and the UK, but occasionally from other centres as well.
The medical school was last accreditated (by the Australian Medical Council) in 1995, that lasts until the end of 2005. I'm pretty sure the re-accreditation process starts next year, as they're rushing through plenty of faculty improvements and changes in preparation.
Just in passing, we do seem to get a fair number of foreign doctors in first-year positions (especially at Waikato hospital for some arcane reason). Mainly from Australia and the UK, but occasionally from other centres as well.
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How can someone living/going to school in Australia get PR in NZ? Don't you have to live where you're a PR?I have a math degree, but most my expertise is in biomedical engineering and Internet application dev., but I'll certainly look at the site..tanks, red.
-pitman
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Originally posted by pitman
I have a math degree, but most my expertise is in biomedical engineering and Internet application dev., but I'll certainly look at the site..tanks, red.
-pitman
Pitman you can apply to get a Aust/NZ without actually living in them. It might take a little longer than if you actually live there but it's not a problem since you don't need it right away. You would be under the "offshore" category.
As for you living there you will have to make a certain number of entries into NZ to keep in valid, and you may have to fill out forms to leave, but all of that is worth the hassle if you can get a residency position there.
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H
Hypochondriac
How does Otago Med School fair with other medical schools in the world? say U Wisconsin (US), Alberta (Canada), Nottingham (UK), and U Melbourne (Oz)???
H
Hypochondriac
further to the above posting, how do Australians view New Zealand doctors? Do Australians view them as being on par with Australian doctors?
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Yeah i wouldn't say there is a problem with the competance of NZ doctors in Aussie eyes...
there is one thing I don't understand..how come Aussies always make fun of New Zealanders..ie with the Sheep jokes and all??
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Australians take the piss out of New Zealanders, New Zealanders take the piss out of Australians.
Both the NZ medical schools are accredited by the Australian Medical Council as being equivalent to Australian schools. My experience is that the NZ grads are practically slightly ahead than the aussies, and the aussies are slightly ahead on physical examination skills - otherwise they look the same to me
Craig
Both the NZ medical schools are accredited by the Australian Medical Council as being equivalent to Australian schools. My experience is that the NZ grads are practically slightly ahead than the aussies, and the aussies are slightly ahead on physical examination skills - otherwise they look the same to me
Craig
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Hey all you Kiwis
I'm planning on doing my elective in NZ in March & April 2005 and since I know it's popular I'm going about the prep now.
Could any of you tell me anything about Palmerston North? Also, general info about decent sized hospitals on the coast on either island would be great... I know I'm asking for a lot! If you know any good general websites etc then let me know.
Cheers all
Fiona
I'm planning on doing my elective in NZ in March & April 2005 and since I know it's popular I'm going about the prep now.
Could any of you tell me anything about Palmerston North? Also, general info about decent sized hospitals on the coast on either island would be great... I know I'm asking for a lot! If you know any good general websites etc then let me know.
Cheers all
Fiona
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Originally posted by FionaS
Hey all you Kiwis
I'm planning on doing my elective in NZ in March & April 2005 and since I know it's popular I'm going about the prep now.
Could any of you tell me anything about Palmerston North? Also, general info about decent sized hospitals on the coast on either island would be great... I know I'm asking for a lot! If you know any good general websites etc then let me know.
Cheers all
Fiona
Hey there
Palmy North (as some would call it in NZ) is a considerably smaller than Auckland. It's flat (no mountains or hills) and it's fairly close to the east coast and to Wellington. The main hospital (PNH) has a new building that was completed in 2001. The work is not too bad. If you are interested in checking it out, goto www.midcentral.co.nz.
Have fun!
Cheers
2ed
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Hey
Thanks for that. I happen to know an English surgeon who just emigrated there, so it's my one place in NZ where I have contacts, but otherwise I'm thinking of going anywhere really
Thanks for that. I happen to know an English surgeon who just emigrated there, so it's my one place in NZ where I have contacts, but otherwise I'm thinking of going anywhere really