Osteopathic vs. Caribbean

[Mjolner]

spoiler alert: i went to a SUNY med school

Boo. I didn't want any spoilers!!

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[Goro]

You know, there are three things I can reliably count on in SDN:

1) URM threads getting locked
2) Someone will post a "I got a B in X class, is my medical career over?"
3) And the Meat Torpedo coming into either a pre-DO or Osteop forum post and trashing the profession. It must be a mission for him.

It's cool if you want to throw around the term "Ivy League" with your family or at a bar to try to impress people but it is meaningless outside of undergrad schools and certainly meaningless when we're talking about family medicine programs! Also, FM is exactly where the ACGME is hoping DOs will fill the gaps and where the OMM placebo effect can be most helpful. Sometimes I wish I could do some OMM in primary care clinic to make all that pesky chronic back pain "better".

 

[Mjolner]

Heh, real HMS guys don't have time to think about DOs, much less trolling in DO forums. That would be like Maserati owners hanging out in Chevy forums.

I'm sure there are some.

 

[Goro]

Like ISIL members, you can't argue with people on a Mission from God.

In all seriousness, how do you have the time or energy to get into so many arguments on an internet message board? I'm not even saying your point of view is wrong...I'm just amazed at how you seemingly have nothing better to do with your time than fight with strangers online. It's odd.

 

[costales]

Like ISIL members, you can't argue with people on a Mission from God.

Goro: We know the Kenyan-born Muslim socialist says ISIL, but it's really ISIS.

 

[W19]

I wonder how MeatTornado will deal with his DO colleagues...

 

[IslandStyle808]

I wonder how MeatTornado will deal with his DO colleagues...

There will be a point where 1/3 of practicing physician will be DOs at the rate these school expansions are going. There is no escape.

 

[deleted731525]

Two decades ago, Caribbean might have been a viable option if you are interested in primary care..

Honestly, there is no comparison nowadays to have DO vs IMG conversation and I'm quite amazed that some people still fail to catch on this.



Interesting...which Ivy League program is it?

Actually the data doesnt really support this idea that the caribbean used to be a valid option but no longer is. Im too lazy to find the data but its in a recent caribbean thread in pre-allo. The match rate has pretty much been around 50%(including all the people who failed to match and are reapplying, first time residency placement from the like of SGU is probably much higher but there is no objective data on that that I know of) consistently all the way back to the 90s. It(It referring to the so called "big 4") is still a valid option for those with no other option, an interest in primary care, and reason to believe they can do well on the USMLE. Unfortunately many of the people who go there dont fit that criteria. As for the title of this thread, DO is the way better option. Not having to live in a foreign country, not having to worry about attrition and having more support from school, better chance of landing a competitive residency at most DO schools, etc.

 

[235009]

3) And the Meat Torpedo coming into either a pre-DO or Osteop forum post and trash the profession. It must be a mission for him.

I've found less of a need to post here as others have started giving better advice that's grounded in reality.

I wonder how MeatTornado will deal with his DO colleagues...

I treat them exactly as I would any other physician. The fact that my attempt to keep it real hurts your feelings doesn't make it malicious.

 

[W19]

I treat them exactly as I would any other physician. The fact that my attempt to keep it real hurts your feelings doesn't make it malicious.

No feelings hurt here... It seems like most of your posts are anti DO. We get it by now that you don't like DO because you think they are 'inferior' to MD... By the way, I am at a MD school... I don't care about DO vs. MD thing I see often here; I just want to be a PHYSICIAN after all...

 

[Dr Tony T. Chopper]

No feelings hurt here... It seems like most of your posts are anti DO. We get it by now that you don't like DO because you think they are 'inferior' to MD... By the way, I am at a MD school... I don't care about DO vs. MD thing I see often here; I just want to be a PHYSICIAN after all...

I feel like he's more anti-OMM rather than DOs themselves...

 

[235009]

This thread was going just fine and we were having a nice grown-up discussion until @SLC stormed in to proclaim that he's at an "ivy league" FM program to try and impress pre-meds then got his feelings hurt when he was called out on how meaningless that is by a resident and an attending.

 

[22031 Alum]

I only jumped in to comment because the same "name brand" mentality that gets called out when pre-meds do it is not uncommon when talking about residencies. At the residency level, "Ivy League" doesn't automatically mean elite. That was my whole point. It was probably just a case of poor word choice but I didn't want to let it go uncorrected.

 

[SLC]

This thread was going just fine and we were having a nice grown-up discussion until @SLC stormed in to proclaim that he's at an "ivy league" FM program to try and impress pre-meds then got his feelings hurt when he was called out on how meaningless that is by a resident and an attending.

Naah, it got derailed when you took offense to my post and decided to focus on how I described my program and ignore the whole point of why I mentioned it in the first place: That it's a top ranked program that consistently gets applications from students at the most well regarded med schools in the country, and could fill up with those applicants, but still takes DO's year over year.

You got all worried that a DO was in an elite residency program and spent most of the day yesterday searching for a way to prove that it wasn't really true.

It's easy to see through you SkinMD! The schitck is nothing new.

 

[SLC]

I only jumped in to comment because the same "name brand" mentality that gets called out when pre-meds do it is not uncommon when talking about residencies. At the residency level, "Ivy League" doesn't automatically mean elite. That was my whole point. It was probably just a case of poor word choice but I didn't want to let it go uncorrected.

I agree, Ivy doesn't "automatically" mean elite. Which is why I qualified my statement with the ranking info too.

Plenty of the programs at our institution are nothing special. Our IM program for instance is probably ranked somewhere in the top 100 but certainly not as highly regarded as the FM program or a few others. Gen Surgery is similar, not a highly ranked residency program. Not horrible, but nothing special.

 

[235009]

Naah, it got derailed when you took offense to my post and decided to focus on how I described my program and ignore the whole point of why I mentioned it in the first place: That it's a top ranked program that consistently gets applications from students at the most well regarded med schools in the country, and could fill up with those applicants, but still takes DO's year over year.

You got all worried that a DO was in an elite residency program and spent most of the day yesterday searching for a way to prove that it wasn't really true.

It's easy to see through you SkinMD! The schitck is nothing new.

Do you know for a fact that your program ranks DOs over these other applicants or is it the applicants not choosing to rank your program highly? Unless you're one of the people directly making the rank list then there's no way for you to know.

I'm not worried about anything. I can only comment on my field: IM. I know nothing about FM other than the fact that it's wide open for both MDs a day DOs.

Both of us were just pointing out the absurdity and hypocrisy of the way you deliberately described your program in a meaningless way that only appeals to those who are uninformed.

 

[SLC]

Do you know for a fact that your program ranks DOs over these other applicants or is it the applicants not choosing to rank your program highly? Unless you're one of the people directly making the rank list then there's no way for you to know.

I'm not worried about anything. I can only comment on my field: IM. I know nothing about FM other than the fact that it's wide open for both MDs a day DOs.

Both of us were just pointing out the absurdity and hypocrisy of the way you deliberately described your program in a meaningless way that only appeals to those who are uninformed.

Care to elaborate on how anything I said about my program was absurd or hypocritical? I'm especially curious about the hypocrisy allegation.

 

[235009]

Care to elaborate on how anything I said about my program was absurd or hypocritical? I'm especially curious about the hypocrisy allegation.

because of this:

the same "name brand" mentality that gets called out when pre-meds do it is not uncommon when talking about residencies

you were one of those people on a crusade against "elitism" but when it plays in your favor you're all for it

 

[DrUlnarParodox]

Two decades ago, Caribbean might have been a viable option if you are interested in primary care..

Honestly, there is no comparison nowadays to have DO vs IMG conversation and I'm quite amazed that some people still fail to catch on this.



Interesting...which Ivy League program is it?

I'm guessing Harvard. They have DOs on staff that run an OMM clinic.

 

[DocEspana]

I check into this forum every few months and im always quite terrified to see that this thread, or a variant of it, remains alive and active every single time.

I'd come by and crack skulls with some of my new data, but honestly, im all out of fight. Its such a silly debate to have, let alone one to have regularly.

 

[IslandStyle808]

I check into this forum every few months and im always quite terrified to see that this thread, or a variant of it, remains alive and active every single time.

I'd come by and crack skulls with some of my new data, but honestly, im all out of fight. Its such a silly debate to have, let alone one to have regularly.

but... but... I want you to crack some skulls... (damn I really miss your posts, hope things are going well for you)

 

[IsWhat]

Do you know for a fact that your program ranks DOs over these other applicants or is it the applicants not choosing to rank your program highly? Unless you're one of the people directly making the rank list then there's no way for you to know.

I'm not worried about anything. I can only comment on my field: IM. I know nothing about FM other than the fact that it's wide open for both MDs a day DOs.

Both of us were just pointing out the absurdity and hypocrisy of the way you deliberately described your program in a meaningless way that only appeals to those who are uninformed.

There is no need for you to be salty over a good program ranking and matching DO's.

 

[DocEspana]

but... but... I want you to crack some skulls... (damn I really miss your posts, hope things are going well for you)

Haha. I'm having fun doing emergency medicine at a major NYC teaching program. Keeping mostly nocturnal hours, so people arent around to debate with when I come online. Basically this is me all the time explaining to patients why I'm covered in blood.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Do you know for a fact that your program ranks DOs over these other applicants or is it the applicants not choosing to rank your program highly? Unless you're one of the people directly making the rank list then there's no way for you to know.

I'm not worried about anything. I can only comment on my field: IM. I know nothing about FM other than the fact that it's wide open for both MDs a day DOs.

Both of us were just pointing out the absurdity and hypocrisy of the way you deliberately described your program in a meaningless way that only appeals to those who are uninformed.

If SLC is working with residents from such schools (the ones he interviewed) and they have a good stat history, this should show that such people do rank his place highly.

 

[235009]

If SLC is working with residents from such schools (the ones he interviewed) and they have a good stat history, this should show that such people do rank his place highly.

Hence my point...he's saying that these people interview at his program but never said they end up matching there. In fact he implied that the program chooses to rank DOs higher than these same exact applicants from top US MD programs that he is now using to brag about his program! Suspicious and disingenuous.

I've been through the match twice now (residency and fellowship) so I have a fair bit of experience and it irks me when someone is being purposefully misleading. Interviewing desirable candidates doesn't automatically make a program desirable. Programs routinely interview candidates who would be "reaches" in the hopes of snagging one. For instance at one fellowship interview half the interviewees were US MDs from middle and top tier university IM programs, while the other half were FMGs from community hospitals. The program knows where it tends to fall in the pecking order and thus interviews people who fit the phenotype of those who will rank them highly while interviewing a bunch of "wish list" candidates. Is it fair to say that this program could "fill up with those [desirable] applicants"? Of course not! For the record I ranked it 15th... dead last... I guarantee you I was ranked to match on their list.

 

[SLC]

Hence my point...he's saying that these people interview at his program but never said they end up matching there. In fact he implied that the program chooses to rank DOs higher than these same exact applicants from top US MD programs that he is now using to brag about his program! Suspicious and disingenuous.

I've been through the match twice now (residency and fellowship) so I have a fair bit of experience and it irks me when someone is being purposefully misleading. Interviewing desirable candidates doesn't automatically make a program desirable. Programs routinely interview candidates who would be "reaches" in the hopes of snagging one. For instance at one fellowship interview half the interviewees were US MDs from middle and top tier university IM programs, while the other half were FMGs from community hospitals. The program knows where it tends to fall in the pecking order and thus interviews people who fit the phenotype of those who will rank them highly while interviewing a bunch of "wish list" candidates. Is it fair to say that this program could "fill up with those [desirable] applicants"? Of course not! For the record I ranked it 15th... dead last... I guarantee you I was ranked to match on their list.

Let's put it this way:

My program currently is about 75% MD, and those MD's come from 4 different Ivies, and a smattering of other elite Allopathic schools.

And this year, I'd say 75% of our applicants have been from MD schools anyone on here would call elite. I've already listed the ones the majority have come from.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Let's put it this way:

My program currently is about 75% MD, and those MD's come from 4 different Ivies, and a smattering of other elite Allopathic schools.

And this year, I'd say 75% of our applicants have been from MD schools anyone on here would call elite. I've already listed the ones the majority have come from.

Dude, come on. I don't mean to be an a** but...you didn't match last year. So by definition, the program you scrambled into didn't fill.

I'm glad you're happy with the place and proud of the training, but arguing on and on about how elite it is is a little hard to swallow in light of the above.

 

[SLC]

Dude, come on. I don't mean to be an a** but...you didn't match last year. So by definition, the program you scrambled into didn't fill.

I'm glad you're happy with the place and proud of the training, but arguing on and on about how elite it is is a little hard to swallow in light of the above.

You're right, last year was the first time in well ever, that my program didn't fill. Doesn't change the fact that it's a top ranked program, that regularly ranks and matches DO's. And fills with MD's from elite schools too.

 

[spiffysteve]

I have a purely hypothetical question. Is it possible to transfer from a Caribbean school to a US one? I only ask because a girl I knew in college matriculated at a Caribbean veterinary school (which is apparently a thing that exists), then successfully transferred to a vet school in Chicago after a year or two, and has since graduated.

Note - I am not considering doing this at all, I'm just wondering if it's a thing people do.

Also please stop fighting.

Pls.

 

[235009]

Dude, come on. I don't mean to be an a** but...you didn't match last year. So by definition, the program you scrambled into didn't fill.

I'm glad you're happy with the place and proud of the training, but arguing on and on about how elite it is is a little hard to swallow in light of the above.

knew i recognized his handle from somewhere!

looked back at some of his threads just now to jog my memory and found this beauty about FM from the AMA he made 2 weeks before the match:

The "prestige" is lacking, but I never went into this field to be admired by people. You gotta do what you love.

how's that for hypocrisy

ok i'm done with this, now i'm beginning to feel sorry for the guy

 

[SLC]

knew i recognized his handle from somewhere!

looked back at some of his threads just now to jog my memory and found this beauty about FM from the AMA he made 2 weeks before the match:





how's that for hypocrisy

ok i'm done with this, now i'm beginning to feel sorry for the guy

See ya, you were never welcome in the first place!

Pointing out that my program is one of the better ones yet still takes DO's doesn't equate to hypocrisy. I'm not thumping my chest for being here, I soaped in for crying out loud. I didn't come here to get anyone's attention, I came here because I was given the chance to.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

I have a purely hypothetical question. Is it possible to transfer from a Caribbean school to a US one? I only ask because a girl I knew in college matriculated at a Caribbean veterinary school (which is apparently a thing that exists), then successfully transferred to a vet school in Chicago after a year or two, and has since graduated.

Note - I am not considering doing this at all, I'm just wondering if it's a thing people do.

Also please stop fighting.

Pls.

So rare that it should not be considered a viable option.

There was one school (in Ohio I think?) that had a pathway for this and would take a couple transfers per year, but I believe they have stopped or slowed it in recent years

 

[W19]

maybe SLC program was overconfident and did not rank enough applicants...

 

[SLC]

maybe the program was overconfident and did not rank enough applicants...

They did mention this in our recruiting season opening meeting this year. That and they got less couples matched than they thought they were going to get.

 

[235009]

Pointing out that my program is one of the better ones yet still takes DO's doesn't equate to hypocrisy. I'm not thumping my chest for being here, I soaped in for crying out loud. I didn't come here to get anyone's attention, I came here because I was given the chance to.

Sounds like they do it out of necessity if they're hard pressed to fill the class. If anything this SOAP/scramble revelation basically validates my initial point.

Ok done for real this time

 

[SLC]

Sounds like they do it out of necessity if they're hard pressed to fill the class. If anything this SOAP/scramble revelation basically validates my initial point.

Ok done for real this time

See ya.

 

[hexane19]

It's sad.... a pharmacist I work with recently told me she doesn't feel DO's are on par to MD's and that they should only be doing OMM.
The real shocking thing was that the pharmacist was in his late 20's...
I figured someone who is not a part of the "old guard" would have more rationale thinking.

 

[W19]

It's sad.... a pharmacist I work with recently told me she doesn't feel DO's are on par to MD's and that they should only be doing OMM.
The real shocking thing was that the pharmacist was in his late 20's...
I figured someone who is not a part of the "old guard" would have more rationale thinking.

That pharmacist is an idiot!

 

[hexane19]

Yea.... even more surprising - she went to a highly ranked pharmacy school....

 

[costales]

Yea.... even more surprising - she went to a highly ranked pharmacy school....

Eh, does it have better pill counting machines?

 

[NurWollen]

It's sad.... a pharmacist I work with recently told me she doesn't feel DO's are on par to MD's and that they should only be doing OMM.
The real shocking thing was that the pharmacist was in his late 20's...
I figured someone who is not a part of the "old guard" would have more rationale thinking.

How did you respond?

 

[22031 Alum]

They did mention this in our recruiting season opening meeting this year. That and they got less couples matched than they thought they were going to get.

In my experience, having to go to the scramble/SOAP to fill during one cycle generally gets a pass. It tends to get attributed to, say, a new PD who overestimates the program's desirability or overshoots when selecting applicants to interview. It starts to be concerning when a program doesn't fill two or three times in a few cycles. Of course, just one round of not filling can still hurt a program's reputation, which doesn't make the next cycle any easier.

In any case let's not forget the original point of this thread: if DO is possible do not go to the Caribbean!!

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

It's sad.... a pharmacist I work with recently told me she doesn't feel DO's are on par to MD's and that they should only be doing OMM.
The real shocking thing was that the pharmacist was in his late 20's...
I figured someone who is not a part of the "old guard" would have more rationale thinking.

kk, fill my scripts.

 

[W19]

Yea.... even more surprising - she went to a highly ranked pharmacy school....

Pharmacy school admission standards are so low now, so even good pharm school like Nova is admitting people with 3.0 GPA and 40%+ percentile PCAT... I wouldn't assume that highly ranked schools are admitting the brightest.

 

[hexane19]

How did you respond?

I told the pharmacist that the curriculum is very similar... at that point I realized I was talking to a closed-minded ***** and gave up.

 

[Instatewaiter]

My program, an Ivy League program BTW...

Ha ha, I worried that might strike a nerve with you.

My only point in bringing it up is that this is an elite program, one of the top ranked one's in the country

1) Big Whoop...

2) Ivy League for medicine is kind of meaningless as there are many non-ivy league programs which are much stronger than their Ivy counterparts. For instance, Brown is technically in the Ivy League but few people would put it in the same league much less the same sentence as UCSF or Duke for basically anything medical.

3) With regard to FM programs like you are in, most strong hospitals tend not have an FM residency. There is no need to use people who aren't the experts in a given field when you have the experts in the field... the adult stuff is done by the people trained only in adults (IM), peds by the people trained to treat kids (Peds), OB by OB etc... So "elite" isn't really an accurate moniker

 

[NurWollen]

1) Big Whoop...

2) Ivy League for medicine is kind of meaningless as there are many non-ivy league programs which are much stronger than their Ivy counterparts. For instance, Brown is technically in the Ivy League but few people would put it in the same league much less the same sentence as UCSF or Duke for basically anything medical.

3) With regard to FM programs like you are in, most strong hospitals tend not have an FM residency. There is no need to use people who aren't the experts in a given field when you have the experts in the field... the adult stuff is done by the people trained only in adults (IM), peds by the people trained to treat kids (Peds), OB by OB etc... So "elite" isn't really an accurate moniker

An arrogant and presumptuous comment. Medicine would be far better off without this kind of attitude.

 

[Doctor Bob]

With regard to FM programs like you are in, most strong hospitals tend not have an FM residency. There is no need to use people who aren't the experts in a given field when you have the experts in the field... the adult stuff is done by the people trained only in adults (IM), peds by the people trained to treat kids (Peds), OB by OB etc... So "elite" isn't really an accurate moniker

Mayo Clinic in Rochester has a family med residency
Duke has a family med residency
UCSF has a family med residency
And I could go on.

But I think your point is still somewhat valid. If I understand you right (and correct me if I'm wrong), what you're saying is that big referral centers don't have FP docs seeing the sick/interesting/medical quandary patients in the hospital. People don't fly from the middle of nowhere to Mayo to see a FP doc; they come in to see the internal med specialist. So the name and prestige of the university doesn't mean as much because the FP people are in the local community clinics, seeing the family members of the community that surrounds the hospital.

An arrogant and presumptuous comment. Medicine would be far better off without this kind of attitude.

The same could be said about that comment as well.

 

[Jinxapotato]

I have a purely hypothetical question. Is it possible to transfer from a Caribbean school to a US one? I only ask because a girl I knew in college matriculated at a Caribbean veterinary school (which is apparently a thing that exists), then successfully transferred to a vet school in Chicago after a year or two, and has since graduated.

Note - I am not considering doing this at all, I'm just wondering if it's a thing people do.

Also please stop fighting.

Pls.

Hey there, I don't think that would be a plausible move. At least, not plausible unless the person has some extraordinary stuff with them (like winning a Nobel prize? I dunno).

And yes, please stop fighting over the MD/DO thing...In 5 years everything we know of the GME system will change, and no one knows exactly how things will evolve...So what's the point of arguing if someone went to a true elite program or not..?

 

[235009]

And yes, please stop fighting over the MD/DO thing...In 5 years everything we know of the GME system will change, and no one knows exactly how things will evolve...So what's the point of arguing if someone went to a true elite program or not..?

I wouldn't exactly call this fighting, nor is it an MD/DO thing. @SLC said something that is ridiculous regardless of the degree you hold and got called out by two residents, a fellow and an attending (so far).