Osteopathic Otolaryngology

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
R

redsoxdave

Full Member
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2006
Messages
25
Reaction score
1
Havent seen much posted lately so just wanted to start a thread and get some current info on the D.O. otolaryngology residencies. Whats a competitive COMLEX score to match? How much research do I need to have completed? Whats your opinion as to which are the best programs and why? Im curious too as to your ability/competitiveness to continue on and do a fellowship say in Craniofacial Reconstruction or Neuro- otology. Anyway, any info would be much appreciated
Members don't see this ad.
 
I don't know too much about the DO oto residencies out there. Some of the DO residents would come to the 6 week long Iowa basic oto science course. Seemed like nice guys.
 
A friend of mine is at PCOM. To match you are unofficially required to do a rotation there. You also need very high boards(bare minimum ~85%) and grades.. its only 2 or 3 spots a year with a lot of apps...research is not required but can only help
As far as the quality of the program, the residents get A LOT of autonomy and a ton of cases. They are spread thin covering a bunch of hospitals, so you will work hard. Some of the past chief residents have gotten some quality fellowships. A weakness is a lack of exposure to trauma, but I don't think most people care about that.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Thanks for the reply Joe! Any idea what fellowships the residents landed?
 
And if someone (MD or DO) could also answer - what does it take to land a 4th year elective rotation. Clearly there's many more interested than they have spots (for the above reason that rotating is important for eventually matching). So they must screen at this stage, anyone know how this is done?
 
redsoxdave said:
Thanks for the reply Joe! Any idea what fellowships the residents landed?
Click to expand...


One guy got a cosmetics fellowship, another head & neck...

Beastmaster: for most places you just need to call them in advance and fill out some paperwork, other places may need a CV, board scores, etc...
 
Thanks for the info on the PCOM program.

Anyone know anything about the NYCOM or UMDNJ-SOM residencies in ENT?
 
joedo said:
One guy got a cosmetics fellowship, another head & neck...

Beastmaster: for most places you just need to call them in advance and fill out some paperwork, other places may need a CV, board scores, etc...
Click to expand...

I have a couple of questions if you don't mind.

1) After completion of the Osteopathic ENT program were the cosmetic, and H/N fellowships they completed also accredited by the osteo board or were they ACGME accredited fellowships?

2) Has any DO-ENT ever had problems getting hospital privledges for any procedure whatsoever because he/she didn't complete an ACGME accredited residency and/or fellowship?

Thanks.
 
Dr.Millisevert said:
I have a couple of questions if you don't mind.

1) After completion of the Osteopathic ENT program were the cosmetic, and H/N fellowships they completed also accredited by the osteo board or were they ACGME accredited fellowships?

2) Has any DO-ENT ever had problems getting hospital privledges for any procedure whatsoever because he/she didn't complete an ACGME accredited residency and/or fellowship?

Thanks.
Click to expand...

Not really sure if there any DO ENT fellowships. However, there may be. I'm not an ENT resident, a friend of mine is. It might be a good idea to look into it.
I do know that the Head and Neck fellowship was acgme and the guy completed it and is now an attending... I dont know whether he is accredited w/ what board.
For the second question - it doesn't really make sense. If a hospital hires you (do or md), they hired you as an ent. Why would they deny you privledges that are in the scope of your field?
 
Don't get caught up on which allopathic fellowships are ACGME approved. Many H&N, Peds, Facial Plastics, Laryngology, etc are not "accredited" - and this has little, if any, impact on ability to get a job in academics or private practice.

The only sub-specialty that this matters for is Neurotology - and there are very few of those fellowships.

If the fellowhsip is ACGME approved, this limits your ability to take staff call, which many programs will want to use you for. If it is unaccredited, you can see all your own patients, (Medicare esp) without you mentor seeing them too - this allows the department to bill for your services. This also applies to the OR,.

What's more important is to go to the fellowship that offers you the training the you want to do. If you are into microvascular, make sure the places you are interviewing at do tons of free flaps. If you want to do academic facial plastics, makes no sense to go to a cosmetic fellowship, etc, etc, etc.
 
Leforte said:
The only sub-specialty that this matters for is Neurotology - and there are very few of those fellowships.
Click to expand...

Why would it matter for neurotology, but not others?

Leforte said:
If the fellowhsip is ACGME approved, this limits your ability to take staff call, which many programs will want to use you for. If it is unaccredited, you can see all your own patients, (Medicare esp) without you mentor seeing them too - this allows the department to bill for your services. This also applies to the OR,..
Click to expand...


Why would attending an ACGME accredited fellowship "limit" you?

So you think its actually better to attend a non-ACGME fellowship?
 
It applies to Neurotology because they sit their own separate ACGME boards. It is the only OTO fellowship to do this. This was introduced a few years ago when all Neurotology fellowships were changed to 2 years, and many of the smaller private ones were eliminated. There are still a few 1 year fellowships out there in otology, but you cannot sit the Neurotology boards, and cannot advertize yourself as a Neurotologist - only as an otologist (which is fine for many people interested in private and who want a more in depth otology experience).

Although other subspecialties do sit their own boards (say, facial plastics, for example) - you do not need to do a fellowship to sit these. Facial plastics is based on a points system, which, when met allows the applicant to do the written and oral boards. This can be obtained from participation in a fellowship or by experience while in practice or the combination. The only way to sit the Neurotology exams is to complete a 2 year ACGME approved fellowship. Period. There is still a pathway for people to be gradfathered into (because many current academic and private Neurotologists only did a 1-year fellowship), this pathway will close in the not to distant future (I think it is 2011, or there abouts) and requires that a person have 7 years experience as a neurotologist in practice.

As to whether to attend an "approved" OTO fellowship in the other areas (peds, H&N, etc) - it does not matter. Take H&N for example, there are "approved" fellowships from the H&N society, and "unapproved" ones. the approved ones go through a match, so you have to go through all that crap again. Many are 2 years (MD Anderson, for example) with a significant research component. The ones outside the match are offered independently, without the stress of a match are one year long and clinically oriented. Depends on what you want to do with your career. If you want to be a lead investigator in basic science in addition to an academic surgeon, better to go to the place with a research commitment. If, however, you want strong clinical training, why spend a year in the lab? Makes no sense.

Also, the word "fellow" can have multiple meanings. In an ACGME approved program, you cannot take staff call for your area. In non approved programs, you can. Take Peds OTO at Mass E&E, the fellowship is 1 year long and you take staff Peds call (backed up, of course). After you feel comfortable, you can take the kids to the OR without callking in staff (do you really need to call in staff for a tonsil bleed?). ME&E allows the fellows to bill for these services independently. As you can imagine, this significantly increases your yearly pay.

So to answer Dr Millisevert's question, no I am not saying that a non approved program is better, just that each fellowship has its own strengths and weaknesses and that one should not be hung up on which are "approved" and which are not. You should look at each one independently, and then at what you want out of a fellowship, and apply appropriately.

Unfortunately, in medicine we seem to focus too much on how a program is "seen" versus what the program can offer.

If you are an ENT resident, talk with your staff or senior residents - all should know the above information.
 
Leforte said:
Although other subspecialties do sit their own boards (say, facial plastics, for example) - you do not need to do a fellowship to sit these. Facial plastics is based on a points system, which, when met allows the applicant to do the written and oral boards. This can be obtained from participation in a fellowship or by experience while in practice or the combination.
Click to expand...

Thank you for all of your help! I have another question however..

Referring to The American Board of Facial plastic and reconstructive surgery. Their website states,

To be eligible for certification, a surgeon must:

1. Have completed a residency program approved by the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education or the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada in one of the two medical specialties containing identifiable training in facial plastic and reconstructive surgery: otolaryngology/head-and-neck surgery or plastic surgery.

2. Have earned prior certification by the American Board of Otolaryngology, the American Board of Plastic Surgery or the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada in otolaryngology/head-and-neck surgery or plastic surgery.

3. Have been in practice a minimum of two years.

4. Have 100 operative reports accepted by a peer-review committee.
Successfully pass an 8-hour written and oral examination.

5. Operate in an accredited facility.

6. Hold the appropriate licensure and adhere to the ABFPRS Code of Ethics.


But, according to numbers 1 and 2 in that list.. it appears to me that neither an Osteopathic ENT/PRS, or a Maxillofacial surgeon would be eligible to become certified. Is this the case?
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Dr.Millisevert said:
2. Have earned prior certification by the American Board of Otolaryngology, the American Board of Plastic Surgery or the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada in otolaryngology/head-and-neck surgery or plastic surgery.

But, according to numbers 1 and 2 in that list.. it appears to me that neither an Osteopathic ENT/PRS, or a Maxillofacial surgeon would be eligible to become certified. Is this the case?
Click to expand...

I am pretty sure that only Board-certified PRS's or Oto's can be FPRS board certified. In my opinion, a plastics guy wouldn't care too much about the FPRS board, but an oto who specializes in cosmetics might want the extra certification.
 
I've pretty much written what I know about facial plastics - as I am not planning on any cosmetic work in my practice. Yes, to sit the ABFPRS exams, one needs to have competed an allopathic ENT or Plastics residency/fellowship. The osteopathic programs have their own OTO specialty boards, and are considered equal to an allopathic program.

To do cosmetic work in practice, it is not necessary to do a FP fellowship out of an ENT residency. But I can tell you that in many places residents have the least operative exposure in this aspect of our specialty and choose to do the extra year to fill in training gaps, as well as for marketing reasons. Obviously, if you want to set up a cosmetic practice in a large city, a FP fellowship becomes nearly a prerequisite. If, however, you are in a smaller town and do all aspects of ENT with a few blephs, dorsal hump reductions, BOTOX injections, etc, you need not pursue a fellowship, provided you were trained in the operations in residency. 25% of our specialty boards are in FPS, and indeed facial analysis, rhinoplasty, rhytidectomy, etc are all tested on in both written and orals.

My experience with OMFS is limited, but we have their residents at a few hospitals we rotate through. Not sure why you'd want to do cosmetic work as a DMD/DDS, too much $$$ to be made pulling wizzies.
 
Leforte said:
1. Yes, to sit the ABFPRS exams, one needs to have competed an allopathic ENT or Plastics residency/fellowship.

The osteopathic programs have their own OTO specialty boards, and are considered equal to an allopathic program.

2. But I can tell you that in many places residents have the least operative exposure in this aspect of our specialty and choose to do the extra year to fill in training gaps, as well as for marketing reasons.

If, however, you are in a smaller town and do all aspects of ENT with a few blephs, dorsal hump reductions, BOTOX injections, etc, you need not pursue a fellowship, provided you were trained in the operations in residency. 25% of our specialty boards are in FPS, and indeed facial analysis, rhinoplasty, rhytidectomy, etc are all tested on in both written and orals.

3. Not sure why you'd want to do cosmetic work as a DMD/DDS, too much $$$ to be made pulling wizzies.
Click to expand...


1. So graduates of osteopathic ent programs are not eligible to sit the ABFPRS exams even though they are equivalent?

2. I agree with you. But just to confirm. Let's say you wanted to do some facial cosmetic work at the local hospital regardless if it was in a large city or small town. As long as you've logged enough cases (regardless if it is an OMFS, Osteo-ENT, or ACGME-ENT) it shouldn't be a problem?

3. Again.. agree with you. :) I'm not that interested in cosmetic work to be honest.. I'm just using this as an example to investigate requirements for OMS guys in subspecialty areas. I'm more interested in pursuing a fellowship in craniofacial or H/N oncology after omfs.
 
Sorry to kind of jump from the topic but I was wondering if anybody out there knew some of the strengths of the different osteopathic otolaryngology residencies? Are there certain sites that have more clinical case diversity and are there sites that have more of a speciality strength like trauma/plastics/head and neck? thanks for the help!! oh and how bout those sox huh??!!
 
redsoxdave said:
Sorry to kind of jump from the topic but I was wondering if anybody out there knew some of the strengths of the different osteopathic otolaryngology residencies? Are there certain sites that have more clinical case diversity and are there sites that have more of a speciality strength like trauma/plastics/head and neck? thanks for the help!! oh and how bout those sox huh??!!
Click to expand...

actually you're jumping back on topic. Anyone else have anything to share about any of the DO programs. Any current residents care to add some details about their own programs, and insight into how the program selects its candidates? Which are the stronger / weaker programs? Are any new programs opening up this year? Current applicants, whats the buzz on the interview trail?

Current residents + interested med students represent such a small group in this DO field, but there have to be some lurkers around here.
 
New program opened in Detroit. Michigan now has half of the osteopathic ENT programs in the country. How greedy!!
 
Has anybody heard a typical COMLEX score of those asked to interview and then match? wondering if it's even worth it to rotate through a few places. thanks...
 
yeah the detroit story is true. it will be i believe a strong ENT residency site. Long story short there was some misunderstandings with some of the clinical ENT faculty at Wayne State with admin at the hospital. So, essentially Wayne State's ENT program decided to walk and head to Beaumont hospital and now that program is going to be run by a D.O. The residency hospitals include Childrens hospital of Michigan, Detroit Recieving, Harper, and possibly the VA. no funding issues from what i understand and huge case load. they will be accepting four positions a year which will make it the largest DO ENT residency. anyway if you have more questions email me. I spent a month at the program and loved it.
 
oh yeah, more to follow later when i have some more down time. just finished rotating at quite a few of the D.O. ENT residencies and since no one before me ever posted anything just thought it would be nice to have some info out there for you to better make some decisions. if u have any specific questions attach them to the blog
 
redsoxdave said:
oh yeah, more to follow later when i have some more down time. just finished rotating at quite a few of the D.O. ENT residencies and since no one before me ever posted anything just thought it would be nice to have some info out there for you to better make some decisions. if u have any specific questions attach them to the blog
Click to expand...

Did you, or anyone else here, do a rotation at H Ford Bi-County in MI for ENT? Any opinions on the program?
 
I'm starting to schedule my 4th year ENT rotations. Anyone else?
 
sorry. didnt do a rotation at henry ford bi-county so no opinion. whose the director at that program?
 
match results are in!!!! headed to PCOM. hope it worked out well for everybody!
 
yes sir. worked out amazingly well. hope scheduling is going well
 
Does anyone have the link for the new program at Beaumont? Also, how does PCOM decide who they will accept for a student elective as there are probably more applicants than spots for the few months when we can showcase.
 
What beaumont program are you talking about, the new program in michigan?


Also, any DOs match allopathic this year ? Last year I think it was a whopping zero.
 
Beaumont? Not sure which one you are talking about either unless its the new michigan program under Dr. Madgy at the DMC. Also, as far as getting a rotation at PCOM, I think its pretty much first come first serve. Try and set it up as early as possible. I cant remember when I called to get my rotation but it was early and fills up quickly. Dont be suprised to be doing the rotation with about 5 other students while another 5-6 PCOM students are rotating with other attendings. But dont let this deter you. There were 2 spots at PCOM this year and neither went to PCOM students. I think the other spot went to a girl from Midwestern.

DO's matching ENT...heard of a few in the last couple years. One at Drew in So Cal and the other somewhere in the midwest but havent heard of anybody this year so far. Seems to be somewhat of a bias on the MD side against the DO's but that should die along with the old school-ers that hold it
 
any other students who matched ENT out there? Just curious as to where everybody else ended up
 
Anyone have any info on this new program at the DMC? I've been looking around and haven't been able to find any info on it. Do they have a website, how many spots, etc? Thanks
 
redsoxdave---i tried to pm u, but no response...
 
4th year trying to set up my electives also...any suggestions?
 
are u trying to figure out which sites?
 
This may be completely useless but just thought I'd briefly share my experience. To answer the original question, I recently shadowed an ENT (D.O.) that did her residency at OSU-COM's program. This was probably a little while ago so I don't know if things have changed (I heard something about sketchiness of OSU residencies of late, not sure), but she had nothing but great things to say about her training. And from what I could tell, her practice reflected excellent training.

(She has a solo practice in a somewhat rural/suburban, but very underserved area; outpatient surgery center right next door where she had surgery days a few days a week, the rest of the time as clinic days; very nice schedule/lifestyle, no call from what I could tell)
 
Finally got confirmations on my rotations, will be 3 DO programs and 1 MD program. Looks like my first 4 months of MS4 kick off with a bang!
 
I am set to rotate in Joplin and St. Louis. Does anyone have any info about the Philly or Michigan programs?
 
Also, any ideas of average board scores for ENT....
 
Hey guys and gals,

Just wondering how likely is it to match in a DO ENT program with an average score (i.e 500). If probable, what are some programs that are known to take in people who have scored at such a level? What can I do to help my situation besides doing better on step 2 and doing well during my rotations.

This knowledge would be wonderful. I'm quite disappointed in my score, but what can I do...I did study my butt off.

thanks
 
Anyone going to the ACOOHNS in Detroit?
 
I'll be in Detroit later this month. When is the meeting?
 
It was the first weekend in September. Anyone been contacted yet for interviews?
 
UMDNJ sent out interviews already. They are Nov 12 from 8-1. Anyone else going?
 
LECOM's program already held interviews. Couple programs have sent invites for december dates.
Anyone know when PCOM will hold their interview? Haven't heard from them.
Should be an interesting next couple of months.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Next unread thread

Similar threads

U
Rural Otolaryngology Experience
Replies
2
Views
2K
Pir8DeacDoc
P
E
Survey: Virtual introduction of otolaryngology residency program
Replies
0
Views
1K
ekwon90
E
D
Otolaryngology Fellowship Criteria
Replies
1
Views
2K
IGotTheSinus
IGotTheSinus
E
Otolaryngology match suddenly changed in 2006?
Replies
1
Views
2K
OtoHNS
O
T
Informal Otolaryngology Compensation Survey
Replies
6
Views
8K
md_doc
M
Top