orthopod vs. DPM

[DanDPM]

What are everyones opinions on orthopedists who specialize in foot and ankle vs. podiatrists. Is there any competition between the two? Are DPM's considered better trained? Are there certain things that one or the other will not do and refer to the other? Of course this is all refering to mostly orthopedics and surgery not the diabetic wound care and other things that only podiatrist do.

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[drbeesh]

What are everyones opinions on orthopedists who specialize in foot and ankle vs. podiatrists. Is there any competition between the two? Are DPM's considered better trained? Are there certain things that one or the other will not do and refer to the other? Of course this is all refering to mostly orthopedics and surgery not the diabetic wound care and other things that only podiatrist do.

i believe this topic was opened up by someone earlier on but nevertheless, here's my humble opinion:

podiatrists with 3 yrs + surgical training are better trained in the foot and ankle than anyone and can diagnose, treat problems in the lower extremity than any other physician. This is a fact testified by the number of procedures completed by the PM&S-36 residents and by Medical Doctors and attendings of many residency programs. Granted, not every podiatrist has those attributes but there is a potential to reach this level with alot of hard work and willingness to not only learn during residency years, but also to cooperate with other medical physicians such as the orthopedist surgeons, vascular surgeons, internists, opthamologists (since they detect diabetes in patients of course), family physicians, etc. The advantage of the orthopedist is that he is better trained in Medicine than the podiatrist. I understand adn recognize that DPMs do rotations with MD's and get treated no differently, etc. but at the end of the day...the orthopedic surgeon goes through a more intense residency with 5 yrs of medical training + fellowship options in foot and ankle - that doesnt make him/her more qualified in foot and ankle surgery per se but i personally think it makes them more knowledgable in dealing with overall medical conditions that don't necessarily pertain to the lower extremity...

The main point here is that it is not a "competition" between one group versus the other. In fact, if you read the January issue of the Journal of Foot and Ankle Surgery, you will see an editorial by an attending podiatrist who trains orthopedic residents in foot and ankle surgery - as it is best to cooperate rather than compete.

Also, bare in mind that there is only 14,000 or maybe 15,000 active podiatrists at most in the US and many of them are not even qualified to do rear-foot surgery so there is a need for more physicians with foot and ankle training - podiatrists and orthopedists...

and believe me, the more you work with other medical specialties the more ur benefiting the profession as a whole because after all, where else would you get your referrals? And how else with fellow MD/DO's recognize the scope of your work...

 

[krabmas]

I understand adn recognize that DPMs do rotations with MD's and get treated no differently, etc. but at the end of the day...the orthopedic surgeon goes through a more intense residency with 5 yrs of medical training + fellowship options in foot and ankle - that doesnt make him/her more qualified in foot and ankle surgery per se but i personally think it makes them more knowledgable in dealing with overall medical conditions that don't necessarily pertain to the lower extremity...

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Drbeesh,

I agree with almost everything you said except the pasted statement above. I am not 100% sure but from what I have heard from MDs about residency programs ....

Orthopedics programs are entered straight from med school. You do not have to do an internal medicine rotation for 3 years like some other specialties. The Orthopedics do at least a year of internal medicine within their 5 years of training. They do not do a general surgery residency first either like vascular surgeons do. Orthopedics have their own programs on a different track like ENT, OBGYN, Opthamology etc.

 

[jonwill]

Foot and ankle orthopods are great. There just aren't that many of them. That would be a reason that so many ortho groups hire pods as the foot and ankle specialist. A one year fellowship after 5 years of residency wouldn't interest me that much either. And frankly, shoulders, hips, knees, etc are more profitable. Below is a link to the yearly list of foot and ankle fellowships that are unfilled. Since I've been following it, that has been the case. Orthopods are extremely busy without worrying about the foot and ankle. The orthopod at the last hospital I was at told me that he was booked through May (this was in January) and podiatry does everything below the knee.
I don't see there being any competition with ortho. We work well together. In fact, at every hospital I will be at later this year, podiatry is in the ortho department. Sure, occasionally, you'll find some "old school" orthopod that isn't aware of our extensive training and turns his nose up at us but I have NEVER experienced this. Dr. Mark Myerson and Dr. Michael Pinzur are two foot and ankle orthpods that I really respect.
There are nearly 600 million feet in the United States. That's plenty of work for all of us!

http://www.aofas.org/displaycommon.cfm?an=1&subarticlenbr=25

 

[capo]

This is a question I had too. Since DPM's can't take general ortho call in a group practice, does this make them any less desirable to the group? Also, may there come a point when DPM residencies are extended yet another year (thus from the 24 months to the 36 now, then onto 48 months down the road?) to get more intensive rearfoot and reconstructive/trauma surgery experience?

Most DPM's I've spoken with seem to be happy, doing non surgical treatment as in diabetic wound care and such. They claim it takes lawsuit pressure off them, since it's not as risky as surgery and their hours are better. However, I assume if your passion is to do surgery, one wouldn't be content with wound care and primary podiatric medicine only. Thanks, if anyone can elaborate and clarify this a bit more.

 

[jonwill]

There are already numerous programs that have very intensive rearfoot/reconstructive surgery training. Detroit Medical Center is one that I will be at in August. A large portion of the surgery seen at the residency in Des Moines is rearfoot/ankle trauma. Different residencies have a different focus. Some focus more in diabetic care, others in trauma, and some have a more well rounded emphasis. It's all about what you want.
The pods I know that are with ortho groups take all of the foot and ankle call (trauma included). And being procedural medicine, pods can make a lot of money for the group.

 

[beephlatPT]

Drbeesh,

I agree with almost everything you said except the pasted statement above. I am not 100% sure but from what I have heard from MDs about residency programs ....

Orthopedics programs are entered straight from med school. You do not have to do an internal medicine rotation for 3 years like some other specialties. The Orthopedics do at least a year of internal medicine within their 5 years of training. They do not do a general surgery residency first either like vascular surgeons do. Orthopedics have their own programs on a different track like ENT, OBGYN, Opthamology etc.

Ortho residents do the 1st year of the 5 year residency in general surgery, with the following 4 years being devoted completely to orthopedics. Thereafter you can go into practice or go onto subspecialty fellowship. Such is my understanding of the process anyway.

 

[dpmgrad]

Ortho residents do the 1st year of the 5 year residency in general surgery, with the following 4 years being devoted completely to orthopedics. Thereafter you can go into practice or go onto subspecialty fellowship. Such is my understanding of the process anyway.

Actually, this is not true for majority of the Orthopedic programs. In the past, it is true that they did their PGY-1 year in General Surgery. Now, most of the allopathic ortho residents enter directly into the Orthopedic Surgery residency program without doing the General Surgery PGY-1 year. The only exception these days are the DO orthopedic residency programs where some states in US required that the DO do their DO general internship PGY-1 year before entering into their specialty.

 

[drbeesh]

Drbeesh,

I agree with almost everything you said except the pasted statement above. I am not 100% sure but from what I have heard from MDs about residency programs ....

Orthopedics programs are entered straight from med school. You do not have to do an internal medicine rotation for 3 years like some other specialties. The Orthopedics do at least a year of internal medicine within their 5 years of training. They do not do a general surgery residency first either like vascular surgeons do. Orthopedics have their own programs on a different track like ENT, OBGYN, Opthamology etc.

I am saying this based on my experience while working with both professional groups during my time as research coordinator - i said that orthopoedic surgeon knows more medicine overall and this is true as they go through very different rotations from the podiatry ones during the 3rd and 4th years...granted some of the rotations overlap but the podiatry ones emphasize lower extremity more than the rest of the body - yes, i understand that podiatry students do rotations/clerkships with MD students etc. but i am saying in the big picture, the orthopedic surgeon is taught and trained to treat the body and then specialize in surgery...while in podiatry, there's very heavy emphasis on the vast diversity of lower extremity medicine - and of course, i do recognize that treating lower extremity complications requires knowledge of the rest of the body and this is why podiatric surgery residents go through that PGY-1 medical rotation year with other medical residents...

but the difference is that during their schooling, medical schools (MD) will teach and promote treating the body as a whole...while in podiatry is lower extremity...therefore, the amount of medicine that the orthopedic surgeon knows/has is on average more than the podiatrist's...but this does not take away the fact that when it comes to lower extremity complications and surgery - it is probably the safest bet to go to a DPM as the expert

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

I would agree that the orthopod probably knows more general med, but I think it is only b/c pods start to focus in the second half of the there 2nd year. Orthopods stay general until residency.

 

[jack_bauer]

I would agree that the orthopod probably knows more general med, but I think it is only b/c pods start to focus in the second half of the there 2nd year. Orthopods stay general until residency.

i guess it just wouldn't be PC to say that orthopaedic surgerons are perhaps just smarter; since they did in fact get into medical school, graduate at the top of their respective classes and of course do well on the USMLE just to land an ortho residency spot.

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

i guess it just wouldn't be PC to say that orthopaedic surgerons are perhaps just smarter; since they did in fact get into medical school, graduate at the top of their respective classes and of course do well on the USMLE just to land an ortho residency spot.

Then again you are assuming that a podiatric surgeon did not choose to become a podiatrist. You are assuming that they are flunkies and could not cut it in an MD program. You are also assuming that residencies are not political, that they choose the best and the brightest. Not some idiot b/c the attending knows your dad or b/c you are a certain sex or race.

There is an old saying about assuming; I don't know if you have ever heard it. When you assume you make and ass out of u and me. Mr Bauer maybe you should stick to protecting us from terrorist instead of making stupid comments like you did above.

 

[SuperFly123]

You are correct in stating that some podiatrists chose podiatry school over medical school, but it is also true that many more podiatrists choose podiatry school because they didn't get into medical school.

Then again you are assuming that a podiatric surgeon did not choose to become a podiatrist. You are assuming that they are flunkies and could not cut it in an MD program. You are also assuming that residencies are not political, that they choose the best and the brightest. Not some idiot b/c the attending knows your dad or b/c you are a certain sex or race.

There is an old saying about assuming; I don't know if you have ever heard it. When you assume you make and ass out of u and me. Mr Bauer maybe you should stick to protecting us from terrorist instead of making stupid comments like you did above.

 

[IlizaRob]

<< Duplicate Post >>

 

[IlizaRob]

You are correct in stating that some podiatrists chose podiatry school over medical school, but it is also true that many more podiatrists choose podiatry school because they didn't get into medical school.

This is what I love about SDN. Why people insist on claiming fact based on assumption is beyond me. Yes, because pod school is not as competitive as MD school, you might assume that, maybe even put money on it. But dont come here and tell me that its true or fact. You have not taken a national survey, probably havent even talked to more than 5 pod students. If you were to take a survey of my class at DMU, I guarantee you that your statement will be proven false.

 

[drbeesh]

You are correct in stating that some podiatrists chose podiatry school over medical school, but it is also true that many more podiatrists choose podiatry school because they didn't get into medical school.

thats a pretty ignorant claim in my opinion. Unless you've interviewed every podiatrist in the nation and asked them if they took podiatry as a "back-up" to medicine...then only then your claim maybe valid...

however, i will not get into this boring and unfruitful "debate" of podiatrists "not getting in to an MD" because frankly it is irrelevant...you are judged by what you do for your patient not by what degree you have...a previous poster made an even more ridiculous claim by saying that Orthopoedists are "smarter"? No one said they weren't smart...i hope they are brilliant if they are to operate on my body but its silly and ignorant to condemn the expertise of a highly trained DPM because he didnt graduate from an MD school...

I'm not a podiatrist for the record but I have worked with them as well as other medical specialists and they are experts in their field when it comes to lower extremity...I find it very alarming to see that people still don't understand what podiatrists do and the great services they provide their patients...and i'm talking about diabetic wound care, treating ulcers, viral/fungal infections, amputations, lower extremity trauma, etc. Unfortunately many ppl out there still have the ancient and historical definition of a podiatrist clipping toenails without any medical knowledge...which is simply untrue at all...they do that as part of their service to their elder diabetic patients in addition to the services i mentioned above...this ignorance is just as equivalent as saying a "DO" is not a real doctor because they do manipulations...but when we look closer, we see that they are in fact equal to "MDs" with respect to their medical specialties and residencies...

I realize that this post to an observer may come of as "defensive" but this is not my intention at all...In my field of research, I work with many excellent physicians and podiatric physicians as well...i see first hand how our healthcare in north america is evolving to gain expertise from the best providers in their respective fields...for that, i find it necessary for medical groups/specialties to communicate and work with one another instead of satisfying arrogant egos...because afterall, aren't you all in this for the benefit of the patient?

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

Superfly,
I don't disagree w/ your statement. That is why I think that Pod schools should change their requirements and expectations from there students. Until you stop letting the garbage in, no one will give Pods there full due.

An example for one of our own, Viet. He will get into a Pod school even though he had a terrible PS score. I’m not trying to insult him but this score won’t get you a brochure from most MD schools. I think that all schools including CMPS are too lax on the minimum MCAT scores. I think that some schools except lower scores b/c they need to keep there numbers up. Look at CPMS, highest board scores but they still lose a lot of great talent/students to Scholl, Temple, and AZPOD. If they only accept people who get 20s on there MCATs they’d graduate a class of 3. Now look at over schools like NYCPM, they’ll take a corpse if it pays tuition. Until they all raise the bar, people will continue to assume that Pods are MD want-a-be’s.

I just think that it shows the ignorance of a person when they post, “All pods are less qualified than orthopods.” I always say:

“It’s better to look dumb by saying nothing, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.”

Everyone knows I need a proverb in all of my posts.

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

thats a pretty ignorant claim in my opinion. Unless you've interviewed every podiatrist in the nation and asked them if they took podiatry as a "back-up" to medicine...then only then your claim maybe valid...

however, i will not get into this boring and unfruitful "debate" of podiatrists "not getting in to an MD" because frankly it is irrelevant...you are judged by what you do for your patient not by what degree you have...a previous poster made an even more ridiculous claim by saying that Orthopoedists are "smarter"? No one said they weren't smart...i hope they are brilliant if they are to operate on my body but its silly and ignorant to condemn the expertise of a highly trained DPM because he didnt graduate from an MD school...

I'm not a podiatrist for the record but I have worked with them as well as other medical specialists and they are experts in their field when it comes to lower extremity...I find it very alarming to see that people still don't understand what podiatrists do and the great services they provide their patients...and i'm talking about diabetic wound care, treating ulcers, viral/fungal infections, amputations, lower extremity trauma, etc. Unfortunately many ppl out there still have the ancient and historical definition of a podiatrist clipping toenails without any medical knowledge...which is simply untrue at all...they do that as part of their service to their elder diabetic patients in addition to the services i mentioned above...this ignorance is just as equivalent as saying a "DO" is not a real doctor because they do manipulations...but when we look closer, we see that they are in fact equal to "MDs" with respect to their medical specialties and residencies...

I realize that this post to an observer may come of as "defensive" but this is not my intention at all...In my field of research, I work with many excellent physicians and podiatric physicians as well...i see first hand how our healthcare in north america is evolving to gain expertise from the best providers in their respective fields...for that, i find it necessary for medical groups/specialties to communicate and work with one another instead of satisfying arrogant egos...because afterall, aren't you all in this for the benefit of the patient?

Well stated. Good medicine revolves around a health care network not the ego of a few doctors.

 

[OOK]

Superfly,
I don't disagree w/ your statement. That is why I think that Pod schools should change their requirements and expectations from there students. Until you stop letting the garbage in, no one will give Pods there full due.

An example for one of our own, Viet. He will get into a Pod school even though he had a terrible PS score. I’m not trying to insult him but this score won’t get you a brochure from most MD schools. I think that all schools including CMPS are too lax on the minimum MCAT scores. I think that some schools except lower scores b/c they need to keep there numbers up. Look at CPMS, highest board scores but they still lose a lot of great talent/students to Scholl, Temple, and AZPOD. If they only accept people who get 20s on there MCATs they’d graduate a class of 3. Now look at over schools like NYCPM, they’ll take a corpse if it pays tuition. Until they all raise the bar, people will continue to assume that Pods are MD want-a-be’s.

I just think that it shows the ignorance of a person when they post, “All pods are less qualified than orthopods.” I always say:

“It’s better to look dumb by saying nothing, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.”

Everyone knows I need a proverb in all of my posts.

I completely agree with you. some schools take any body for the sake of the tuition money. I think the APMSA ( sorry If I am wrong) should be involved on determining the criteria to accept students into podiatric schools. It is also true that they should respect the autonomy of the schools, but at the same time certain schools tend to diminish the value of the profession.

when it comes to NYCPM, I thing it is a great school with very smart students and professors. but the administration devotes more interest to money than creating a better students body. however, by the time to take the board the class size tend to diminish dramatically.

 

[OOK]

You are correct in stating that some podiatrists chose podiatry school over medical school, but it is also true that many more podiatrists choose podiatry school because they didn't get into medical school.

can you explain to me what medical school means?

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

can you explain to me what medical school means?

Great point. I didn't catch that earlier but I thought that pods went to medical school. Don't they call them doctors when they're done?

Let me clarify something before, I get a 100 posts that I'm an @ss. There are smart and well qualified students at all of the Pod schools; some pod schools water down their classes. A class size of 100 is great if all of the 100 students met real criteria. Not some guy who went to Sandwich U. at the local Subway and got a 12 on his MCATs.

CPME sets the bar for all of the schools, its just they don't want to piss off to many people. Also AACPM works with the schools, and they don't want NYCPM to quit again. So they allow poor choices to continue.

I know we’ve talk about this in the past a people are think that there school does it, but CPMS is the only school that you must pass Part 1 of the boards to graduate. That is a disgrace; it’s time for these schools to set a new standard of quality.

 

[ProdPod]

i guess it just wouldn't be PC to say that orthopaedic surgerons are perhaps just smarter; since they did in fact get into medical school, graduate at the top of their respective classes and of course do well on the USMLE just to land an ortho residency spot.

Wow Jack! You started up a new studentdoctor.com account just to denigrate podiatry. Very lame!

 

[psionic_blast]

I thought I went to medical school. Same test as the D.O.'s since we sit next to them when taking them, maybe they don't go to medical school either.

 

[SuperFly123]

Superfly,
I don't disagree w/ your statement. That is why I think that Pod schools should change their requirements and expectations from there students. Until you stop letting the garbage in, no one will give Pods there full due.

An example for one of our own, Viet. He will get into a Pod school even though he had a terrible PS score. I’m not trying to insult him but this score won’t get you a brochure from most MD schools. I think that all schools including CMPS are too lax on the minimum MCAT scores. I think that some schools except lower scores b/c they need to keep there numbers up. Look at CPMS, highest board scores but they still lose a lot of great talent/students to Scholl, Temple, and AZPOD. If they only accept people who get 20s on there MCATs they’d graduate a class of 3. Now look at over schools like NYCPM, they’ll take a corpse if it pays tuition. Until they all raise the bar, people will continue to assume that Pods are MD want-a-be’s.

I just think that it shows the ignorance of a person when they post, “All pods are less qualified than orthopods.” I always say:

“It’s better to look dumb by saying nothing, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.”

Everyone knows I need a proverb in all of my posts.

I agree with your post completely. People need to admit that those podiatry schools that accept MCAT scores as per their admissions requirements have averages that are significantly lower than medical schools. Podiatrists have their role in health care, but I find it amusing when one compares admissions standards of medical and podiatry schools. Sure, there might be a few DO or MD schools out there with low averages, but not many.

Any by medical school, I mean a school that trains DOs and MDs. Podiatry school is not medical school in its colloquial sense. If you want to get technical, fine, podiatry school is a form of "medical school," but I'd wager the vast majority of the time if one hears/reads "medical school" podiatry school never crosses their mind.

 

[SuperFly123]

Great point. I didn't catch that earlier but I thought that pods went to medical school. Don't they call them doctors when they're done?

Dentists are called "Dr." but they didn't go to medical school - they went to dental school.

Optometrists are called "Dr." but they didn't go to medical school - they went to optometry school.

same for podiatrists...

 

[krabmas]

I agree with your post completely. People need to admit that those podiatry schools that accept MCAT scores as per their admissions requirements have averages that are significantly lower than medical schools. Podiatrists have their role in health care, but I find it amusing when one compares admissions standards of medical and podiatry schools. Sure, there might be a few DO or MD schools out there with low averages, but not many.

Any by medical school, I mean a school that trains DOs and MDs. Podiatry school is not medical school in its colloquial sense. If you want to get technical, fine, podiatry school is a form of "medical school," but I'd wager the vast majority of the time if one hears/reads "medical school" podiatry school never crosses their mind.

When the lay person hears the word doctor they do not think of a podiatrist because many people have never even heard of the profession.

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

Dentists are called "Dr." but they didn't go to medical school - they went to dental school.

Optometrists are called "Dr." but they didn't go to medical school - they went to optometry school.

same for podiatrists...

I've got to disagree w/ you on this one. All podiatry schools are combined w/ a DO or MD programs. Pods sit next to the MD/DO students in the same classes as them and take the same tests. Dentist, optometrists, and chiropractors do not go through this same practice. So if you want to believe that Pods don't go to medical school, then I guess neither do the DOs and MDs we sit next to.

Also going on your theory that no one thinks of podiatry when you say doctor or medical school, which is more of a habit than anything else. When you say med school very few people think of DO programs, and few people understand the difference. So I guess by your theory DOs are not doctors and don’t go to med school.

 

[SuperFly123]

Do podiatry students take all of their classes with their DO/MD counterparts (esp third/fourth year rotations)?

I've got to disagree w/ you on this one. All podiatry schools are combined w/ a DO or MD programs. Pods sit next to the MD/DO students in the same classes as them and take the same tests. Dentist, optometrists, and chiropractors do not go through this same practice. So if you want to believe that Pods don't go to medical school, then I guess neither do the DOs and MDs we sit next to.

Also going on your theory that no one thinks of podiatry when you say doctor or medical school, which is more of a habit than anything else. When you say med school very few people think of DO programs, and few people understand the difference. So I guess by your theory DOs are not doctors and don’t go to med school.

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

3rd and 4th year, we rotate through the same clinics/hospitals and go through the same rotations (internal med, radiography, orthopod, ect). At many residencies, the first year is mainly internal medicine and podiatric medicine, working right next to MD/DO residents, admitting patients and working the ER.

At CPMS we do not take OMM (osteopathic magic medicine) or the history of OMM, those are the only courses that the DOs take that we do not. We have accelerated systems b/c we take more extensive lower limb classes in our 2nd year. But we do take the same systems course w/ the same professors.

 

[ussdfiant]

I've got to disagree w/ you on this one. All podiatry schools are combined w/ a DO or MD programs. Pods sit next to the MD/DO students in the same classes as them and take the same tests.

Normally I just lurk in here because I once had an interest in Podiatry, however I had to pipe in regarding this comment. I'm sure this is true for your school, however this is not true for Temple. At Temple the pod school is located in a different part of Philadelphia and pod students do not have classes with the med school students. They are in no way "combined".

 

[IlizaRob]

I agree with your post completely. People need to admit that those podiatry schools that accept MCAT scores as per their admissions requirements have averages that are significantly lower than medical schools. Podiatrists have their role in health care, but I find it amusing when one compares admissions standards of medical and podiatry schools. Sure, there might be a few DO or MD schools out there with low averages, but not many.

Any by medical school, I mean a school that trains DOs and MDs. Podiatry school is not medical school in its colloquial sense. If you want to get technical, fine, podiatry school is a form of "medical school," but I'd wager the vast majority of the time if one hears/reads "medical school" podiatry school never crosses their mind.

I dont think anyone would say that podiatric medical school admissions is comparable to MD school. It is clear that the requirements are much more laxed simply because the applicant pool isnt as high. However, I would say the curriculum is comparable. Its easier to get in but not to finish. The 3rd and 4th yr rotations are somewhat similar but pods focus more on lower extremity pathology obviously. So it would be difficult to compare with MD/DO. It is true that not all pod schools are integrated with MD/DO students like DMU or Arizona. That does not mean that the material isnt as extensive. The same material is taught by PhDs and guest lecture clinicians. How about we just refer to pod school as podiatric medical school. Does that leave any confusion? The whole "medical school" debate is rediculous. Medical School is defined by the individual using the term.

 

[krabmas]

At NYCPM the histology and anatomy classes are taught by Mount Sinai School of Medicine histology professors. The teach the same class at both schools.

the professors even say they are easier on the MD school.

 

[krabmas]

I'm sure there are MD schools and students out there who think there are some real dumb a$$ pieces of work in their classes. Even though they may have scored 40's on the MCATs their class mates may think " I wouldn't want him to be my mother's doctor".

So as much as scores predict success they are not everything. I do think there should be an absolute minimum of 25 on the MCAT to get into any pod school. If the excuss a perspective student gives is well - I do not test well - then how does that person expect to get a liscence and keep it. Being a liscenced doctor is all about passing a test.

This all from the corpse with money to pay the bills at NYCPM.

 

[scpod]

I do think there should be an absolute minimum of 25 on the MCAT to get into any pod school. If the excuss a perspective student gives is well - I do not test well - then how does that person expect to get a liscence and keep it. Being a liscenced doctor is all about passing a test.

I do agree that there should be a minimum, and I don't like the fact that tests other than the MCAT are accepted now. However, 25 might be a little high. Remember that there is a huge gap between 21 (the average for pod school) and 25. With a 25, you beat 50% of the people who took the test. With a 21, you only beat 25% of the people who took the test. I would go with a happy medium of maybe 23. Unfortunately, that would keep quite a few otherwise qualified applicants out of the pool.

 

[OOK]

Do podiatry students take all of their classes with their DO/MD counterparts (esp third/fourth year rotations)?

Taking classes with DO/MD doesn't make you a doctor. Doctor simply means being able to manipulate your field of study.
refusing to call a podiatrist doctor is like refusing to call a oncolgist doctor. we are discussing using the wrong terminology.
DPM/DO/MD all do the same things ( believe it or not). they rotate to the same hospital and are taught by the same professors. the only difference is that they have different title.

Medicine is the us of drugs to cure diseases. that's what we are all doing. therefore, we all go to med school. don't listen to your ego; the fact that you go allopathic school doesn't make a better doctor and doesn't provide more knowledge than others.
what do you thing about those who study outside of the US and come to practice here? do you think they are doctors or not? would you say that they are better trained than podiatrists who study in the US?

 

[krabmas]

I do agree that there should be a minimum, and I don't like the fact that tests other than the MCAT are accepted now. However, 25 might be a little high. Remember that there is a huge gap between 21 (the average for pod school) and 25. With a 25, you beat 50% of the people who took the test. With a 21, you only beat 25% of the people who took the test. I would go with a happy medium of maybe 23. Unfortunately, that would keep quite a few otherwise qualified applicants out of the pool.

how do you figure that people who got a 23 are qualified? I know that there is less interest in pod school so we can't raise the standards to that of MD schools but I still think 23 is too low when the average at MD schools is at least 30. That is a huge gap between 23 and 30. 25 at least could have been figured into the average of 30 for MD school. Meaning that there might be students in MD school with 25 on the MCAT. MD schools also look at race and other issues for applicants. Like who does your daddy know? So I'll stick to my 25. If the student with the 23 wants it bad enough they will take the MCAT again and get those 2 extra points. That is what students who want to get in to MD schools do - take the test again.

Or wait - no - they go to pod school. (it was a joke - don't kill me - get a sense of humor)

I keep saying MD school because that is what we use in pod school - allopathic medicine.

 

[OOK]

how do you figure that people who got a 23 are qualified? I know that there is less interest in pod school so we can't raise the standards to that of MD schools but I still think 23 is too low when the average at MD schools is at least 30. That is a huge gap between 23 and 30. 25 at least could have been figured into the average of 30 for MD school. Meaning that there might be students in MD school with 25 on the MCAT. MD schools also look at race and other issues for applicants. Like who does your daddy know? So I'll stick to my 25. If the student with the 23 wants it bad enough they will take the MCAT again and get those 2 extra points. That is what students who want to get in to MD schools do - take the test again.

Or wait - no - they go to pod school. (it was a joke - don't kill me - get a sense of humor)

I keep saying MD school because that is what we use in pod school - allopathic medicine.

you should not look at the average of hte MD schools. instead their variation curve. people with 19 get into MD schoos and I am not kidding. I thing a decent average should be 21-23. allopathic schools require 24 as the lowest score but they accept lower than that sometimes.

 

[krabmas]

you should not look at the average of hte MD schools. instead their variation curve. people with 19 get into MD schoos and I am not kidding. I thing a decent average should be 21-23. allopathic schools require 24 as the lowest score but they accept lower than that sometimes.

that is insane - I wish I knew which MDs scored so low on the MCATs and if they actually became MDs.

Most MD schools say they do not take students with such low scores because there is a large likely hood that those students will not pass the USMLEs.

So then we should set it at 24 (which I still think is too low)

 

[OOK]

that is insane - I wish I knew which MDs scored so low on the MCATs and if they actually became MDs.

Most MD schools say they do not take students with such low scores because there is a large likely hood that those students will not pass the USMLEs.

So then we should set it at 24 (which I still think is too low)

they will never tell you that they accept 20. you just need to have contact.

24 is fair.

 

[IlizaRob]

that is insane - I wish I knew which MDs scored so low on the MCATs and if they actually became MDs.

Most MD schools say they do not take students with such low scores because there is a large likely hood that those students will not pass the USMLEs.

So then we should set it at 24 (which I still think is too low)

I think part 1 and part 2 board scores would be a better way to weed people out. If they dont pass, they dont graduate. Maybe the test should not be curved. This way, the schools are responsible for preparing their students didactically and clinically to meet minimum criteria set by the cpme. If they dont, they should not hold the degree.

 

[scpod]

how do you figure that people who got a 23 are qualified?

WVSOM, for instance, calls a "competitive" applicant one with an MCAT between 22 and 23. Some of the other DO schools have higher standards obviously (but not that much), but I think the number of applicants would fall significantly if the standards were higher than that of DO schools. Podiatry doesn't yet have a high enough profile in most college graduates' minds that they spend four years planning to go into the field.

There are still a lot of future podiatrists who don't apply until they are left out of both the MD and DO schools. I talked with a pod school admissions committee member about it last year. He was incredibly happy because of the number of early applications in the last couple of years. A lot more people are starting to think of podiatry as a "first" choice. Yet, remember that there are still pod schools who accept applications until August simply because the class hasn't filled up yet. A couple of people on SDN here have admitted that they tried the MD/DO route a couple of times and just couldn't make it-- they settled for podiatry. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but I do believe that it may be a thing of the past. I think that podiatry is only a few years away from exponential growth. The trend of having pod and MD/DO classes together has done quite a lot for the profession. When those DO/MD's get out of residency in a few years, they will remember their pod classmates and referrals will multiply. There is no better expert of the foot and ankle than the podiatrist! Eventually, a lot more people will realize that.

Reality, though, is a tough thing to conquer. I can envision a day when podiatry is such a competitive field to enter that the required MCAT scores will be higher than those of DO school. Unfortunately, I don't believe that that time is now.

 

[OOK]

I think part 1 and part 2 board scores would be a better way to weed people out. If they dont pass, they dont graduate. Maybe the test should not be curved. This way, the schools are responsible for preparing their students didactically and clinically to meet minimum criteria set by the cpme. If they dont, they should not hold the degree.

they will always curve the board scores. all the other professions curve. I think they should standardize the board part II. make it more similar to USMLE II

 

[psionic_blast]

I think part 1 and part 2 board scores would be a better way to weed people out. If they dont pass, they dont graduate. Maybe the test should not be curved. This way, the schools are responsible for preparing their students didactically and clinically to meet minimum criteria set by the cpme. If they dont, they should not hold the degree.

Agree I happen to know a third year student at DMU that Pass part one of the boards and only had a 16 on the MCAT So it can be done and he successfully pass all his classes. He will most likely go on a become a great doctor. MCAT is not everything. It is an assessment tool. I agree there should probably be some guidelines, but what i can't believe is that all other school except DMU allow people to graduate from their POD school and not have passed the boards thing is really negligent on many levels. Some of the other schools standards make me sick. It would be interesting to see how many students would fail in this scenario. I have a feeling DMU would still have the high pass rate.

 

[krabmas]

Agree I happen to know a third year student at DMU that Pass part one of the boards and only had a 16 on the MCAT So it can be done and he successfully pass all his classes. He will most likely go on a become a great doctor. MCAT is not everything. It is an assessment tool. I agree there should probably be some guidelines, but what i can't believe is that all other school except DMU allow people to graduate from their POD school and not have passed the boards thing is really negligent on many levels. Some of the other schools standards make me sick. It would be interesting to see how many students would fail in this scenario. I have a feeling DMU would still have the high pass rate.

I mentioned this before - but DMU has never used that rule to hold someone back. They just wrote it this year because of the one person who did not pass the boards.

NYCPM has had the rule for 5 years at least and has actually kicked people out of school for not passing the boards. They did not enforce the rule a few years ago because of the non-confidence in the boards by all the schools.

 

[jonwill]

I mentioned this before - but DMU has never used that rule to hold someone back. They just wrote it this year because of the one person who did not pass the boards.

NYCPM has had the rule for 5 years at least and has actually kicked people out of school for not passing the boards. They did not enforce the rule a few years ago because of the non-confidence in the boards by all the schools.

The No-confidence was only against 4 schools. DMU, Cali, and Scholl didn't have to retake the boards that year (2002). Also, the one person that failed part 1 at DMU in July past in October so it is still a mute point.

 

[psionic_blast]

I mentioned this before - but DMU has never used that rule to hold someone back. They just wrote it this year because of the one person who did not pass the boards.

NYCPM has had the rule for 5 years at least and has actually kicked people out of school for not passing the boards. They did not enforce the rule a few years ago because of the non-confidence in the boards by all the schools.

It was instated this year for the reason of raising the bar in the profession, sorry if you did get my point. We are raising the bar at dmu, but it takes time what has your school done to raise the bar?

 

[JamieOCPM]

Great point. I didn't catch that earlier but I thought that pods went to medical school. Don't they call them doctors when they're done?

Let me clarify something before, I get a 100 posts that I'm an @ss. There are smart and well qualified students at all of the Pod schools; some pod schools water down their classes. A class size of 100 is great if all of the 100 students met real criteria. Not some guy who went to Sandwich U. at the local Subway and got a 12 on his MCATs.

CPME sets the bar for all of the schools, its just they don't want to piss off to many people. Also AACPM works with the schools, and they don't want NYCPM to quit again. So they allow poor choices to continue.

I know we’ve talk about this in the past a people are think that there school does it, but CPMS is the only school that you must pass Part 1 of the boards to graduate. That is a disgrace; it’s time for these schools to set a new standard of quality.

Hate to burst your bubble, but OCPM requires all students to pass Part 1 of the boards before graduation.

 

[krabmas]

It was instated this year for the reason of raising the bar in the profession, sorry if you did get my point. We are raising the bar at dmu, but it takes time what has your school done to raise the bar?

how is it raising the bar if it is one of the last schools to add the rule - seems like following the rest to me.

I'm not saying my school is better I just thought everyone should know the truth.

All of us students can truely only speak about our own schools and own experiences (not including stats). If you did not attend another school you don't know what it is like - you just know what you have heard.

 

[IlizaRob]

how is it raising the bar if it is one of the last schools to add the rule - seems like following the rest to me.

I'm not saying my school is better I just thought everyone should know the truth.

All of us students can truely only speak about our own schools and own experiences (not including stats). If you did not attend another school you don't know what it is like - you just know what you have heard.

I think this was just a bit of a miscommunication. There was a thread not too long ago that talked about this. Many students voiced that they could graduate without passing boards. That is what I gathered anyway. Obviously that is not the case. I am happy to know that. It is good that there is some competition between schools; otherwise, there wouldn’t be a need to improve. In the end, we will all be colleagues.

 

[SuperFly123]

Are you kidding me? Where did I ever say podiatrists shouldn't be called "Doctor?" And I'm sorry, DPMs do not do the same thing as DOs/MDs. They deal with the foot/ankle. Although they may have some of the same rotations as students, I doubt one can go to DPM school and take Step 1, 2, and 3. Likewise, I doubt a "medical student" could go to DPM school and pass your boards.

The only difference is their title? Does anyone really believe this?
All I'm saying is that it is misleading to say DPMs go to medical school -they go to podiatry school or podiatry medical school.

Taking classes with DO/MD doesn't make you a doctor. Doctor simply means being able to manipulate your field of study.
refusing to call a podiatrist doctor is like refusing to call a oncolgist doctor. we are discussing using the wrong terminology.
DPM/DO/MD all do the same things ( believe it or not). they rotate to the same hospital and are taught by the same professors. the only difference is that they have different title.

Medicine is the us of drugs to cure diseases. that's what we are all doing. therefore, we all go to med school. don't listen to your ego; the fact that you go allopathic school doesn't make a better doctor and doesn't provide more knowledge than others.
what do you thing about those who study outside of the US and come to practice here? do you think they are doctors or not? would you say that they are better trained than podiatrists who study in the US?