Optometry Scope of Practice in California

[JMK2005]

Just read senate bill 1406

I'm amazed at the language included in this bill.

It effectively allows optometrist to perform eye surgery that does not require general anesthesia -- that's pretty much everything.

Certification would be at the sole discretion of the Board of Optometry.

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[twintiger32]

agreed. you can check out the first sticky on this forum for more thoughts.

 

[KHE]

And they're off!!

Out of the gate its Optometrists Doing Surgery! Optometrists Doing Surgery starts out strong followed closely behind by Yea So What and We're Qualified Anyways. We're Qualified Anyways moves up on the inside along with I Took The Same Anatomy Class as Med Students and Only MDs Should Do Surgery! As they come to the clubhouse turn it's My GPAs Higher than Yours on the outside followed by I Took the MCATs! I Took the MCATs is packed in tight with Yea So What and Go To Med School! As they come down the far stretch Go To Med School falls back! At the head of the pack, it's I Knew A Guy Who Went to an OD Once and Now He's Blind both making their moves! It's an INCREDIBLE race folks! I don't believe it! Out of NOWHERE comes Dentists Do Surgery and Go To Med School! Go To Med School ROARS back into the race!! It's Dentists Do Surgery, it's Go To Med School! It's Dentists Do Surgery, it's Go To Med School NECK AND NECK!

As they round the far turn, Working Together is NO WHERE IN SIGHT! Working Together is dead last! Still up at the front its Dentists Do Surgery and Go To Med School but here comes I Didn't Want to Go To Med School and PIs are Easy making a hard charge! PIs are Easy is making his move to the inside trying to squeeze by ODs Are Greedy and Patients Will Go Blind and DOWN THE STRETCH THEY COME! The crowd is going wild!

As they come down the stretch it's still a dead heat between Dentists Do Surgery and Go To Med School! Only MDs Should Do Surgery is pouring it on at the end along with PIs ar Easy and as they come to the finish line it's....IT'S.......IT'S More Wasted Bandwidth BY A NOSE!!!

I don't belive it folks! I've never seen a race like it! WOW!

3-5-9 Trifecta pays $129.12.

 

[Eyefixer]

Have we run out of original material, KHE ?

 

[KHE]

Have we run out of original material, KHE ?

Pretty much...those things are hard to come up with because really, it's just the same old blather over and over again.

 

[Jokestr]

That was hilarious...even for an optometrist. JUST KIDDING!!! I did get a good laugh out of it though. I could actually hear the horse track voice!
Thanks

 

[ophthogirl]

love it!

got any more tricks up your sleeve to entertain a procrastinating MS IV who is somehow still on required rotations?

 

[Oculomotor]

"And they're off!!

Out of the gate its Optometrists Doing Surgery! Optometrists Doing Surgery starts out strong followed closely behind by Yea So What and We're Qualified Anyways. We're Qualified Anyways moves up on the inside along with I Took The Same Anatomy Class as Med Students and Only MDs Should Do Surgery! As they come to the clubhouse turn it's My GPAs Higher than Yours on the outside followed by I Took the MCATs! I Took the MCATs is packed in tight with Yea So What and Go To Med School! As they come down the far stretch Go To Med School falls back! At the head of the pack, it's I Knew A Guy Who Went to an OD Once and Now He's Blind both making their moves! It's an INCREDIBLE race folks! I don't believe it! Out of NOWHERE comes Dentists Do Surgery and Go To Med School! Go To Med School ROARS back into the race!! It's Dentists Do Surgery, it's Go To Med School! It's Dentists Do Surgery, it's Go To Med School NECK AND NECK!

As they round the far turn, Working Together is NO WHERE IN SIGHT! Working Together is dead last! Still up at the front its Dentists Do Surgery and Go To Med School but here comes I Didn't Want to Go To Med School and PIs are Easy making a hard charge! PIs are Easy is making his move to the inside trying to squeeze by ODs Are Greedy and Patients Will Go Blind and DOWN THE STRETCH THEY COME! The crowd is going wild!

As they come down the stretch it's still a dead heat between Dentists Do Surgery and Go To Med School! Only MDs Should Do Surgery is pouring it on at the end along with PIs ar Easy and as they come to the finish line it's....IT'S.......IT'S More Wasted Bandwidth BY A NOSE!!!

I don't belive it folks! I've never seen a race like it! WOW!

3-5-9 Trifecta pays $129.12."

KHE, that was frickin hilarious!

 

[MedEye]

KHE, that was frickin hilarious!

You should delete the word 'physician' from your signature line. You will never become one unless you go to medical school .

MedEye, MD

 

[Oculomotor]

MedEyeMD

Awwwww poooor baby! He is upset that the primary eye doctors in this country that supply 75% of the eye care in this country use the term "optometric physician" in many states including the one I am attending optometry school in. There are already several state organizations that have optometric physician as an official name for OD's:

http://www.oregonoptometry.org/index.asp

http://www.njsop.org/

http://www.oaop.com/

http://www.eyes.org/

You might want to start making phone calls all over the country if your feelings are hurt.


PS: another fact for you to chew on Mr. Med Eye. Podiatrists who do not go to medical school are referred to my many STATE MEDICAL BOARDS as physicians (podiatric physicians), OMS surgeons are classified as physicians or surgeons and yes you guessed it they DO NOT go to medical school. Optometrists now parallel most of the functions of a medical ophthalmologist when it relates to primary eye care:

1) Independent doctorate level health care practitioner (Doctor of Optometry) just like a Doctor of Medicine or Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine.

2) Independent doctorate level prescriber
both can RX medications withing their scope of practice with complete autonomy. Both (OD's and MD/DO's) are subject to full liability.

3) Under medicare optometrists are classified as "Physicians" just as MD's and DO's

4) Optometrists (just like MD's or DO's) can diagnose and treat ocular disease with medications and with some surgery (a growing trend in some states----remember the ophthalmologist holding a bottle of atropine in the early 70's stating that optometrists would blind patients with it---look where we are now!)

5) According to a survey done by the American Academy of Otolaryngology and Head and Neck Surgery, 75% of Americans think an OD is an MD. And according to most other surveys I have read (I can supply you with links if you wish) roughly 85% of Americans cannot distinguish the difference between an ophthalmologist or an optometrist.

6) The several years I worked in eye care >95% of patients referred to optometrist as their eye doctor. Many of these patients were comanaged with opthalmologists.

Doctor versus Physician hmmmmm sounds like semantics to me....

I actually did a survey of 200 patients ( for an MPH class I was taking) and asked them if they thought physician or doctor were the same thing and 185 of them felt the terms were no different.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm--- Interesting


7) I know you understand the concept of supply and demand as well as market forces. Good now that's out of the way I will educate you----> Because 75% of primary eye care in this country is rendered by optometric physicians (optometrists) that indicates pre-emminence in that aspect of care. Ergo----> OD's are THE primary eye care provider.......primary eye care physicians......


PS: Get over yourself. If you are a good boy I might send you some patients in the future and we can go play golf! Do you have a good putting game? I can hit the ball pretty far.....


FUTURE OPTOMETRIC PHYSICIAN
specifically optometric glaucoma specialist (in the future)

 

[hello07]

Oculomotor,
Please go have your head examined by a psychiatrist because you are delusional. Do you suffer from inferiority complex or superiority complex? I don't know what to label you as such b/c I am not qualified in this area of expertise.
Future glaucoma specialist huh? Your smoking crack or some drug that they are feeding you in your OD school. Try to learn and refract and provide patients with the best optical prescrition at distnca and near and CL's fittings as well. Learn to diagnose anterior and posterior diseases of the eye and to recognize all the abnormalities and normalities of the eye.
Leran to correctly diagnose ocular disease and then treat it appropriately topical/ oral according to your state law.
Glaucoma, which you have no clue about CAN BE VERY DIFFICULT to DX and TX depending on the circumstances. GLAUCOMA IS NOT EASY. Leave that up to the MD's and know your role!
"Optometric physician" huh - I wish I could give you some Haldol. You need it.

 

[rubensan]

hmmm. unfortunately, this thread is degenerating the way many others have by the fault of a FEW. hello07, i agree that glaucoma can be difficult to treat and diagnose and i agree with the big picture of what you are trying to say. unfortunately, when we tell people to "go have their head examined" or accuse them of "not having a clue," it comes off as hostile and disrespectful and angers many people on different forums (optometry and ophthalmology) as evidenced by the fact that your post has been reported by many. we should try to have intelligent dialogue on this forum and treat each other with respect. after all, we are all health care providers. oculomotor, i have been on this fourm for awhile and your tone and the manner in which you respond to posts is very reminiscent of a few of your colleagues that ended up being banned, put on probation by the forum or publically rediculed by their own optometry colleagues. i would encourage you to think about your posts before responding on this forum. if you are out to just stir the pot, then i maintain that your energies could be better spent elsewhere. bottom line, when threads degenerate like this, i end up getting tons of PMs and reported posts that force me to make difficult decisions about closing threads and banning members. please don't force me to do that again.

 

[Oculomotor]

hello 07 you are being totally unreasonable........I am in the same field helllllllloooooooooooooo?

I am NOT on here to fight rather I wish have an honest and measured conversation........Optometry and Ophthalmology are both great fields.............we have our differences but the same ultimate goal of taking care of patients........

 

[KHE]

Yet another in a looooong list of postings that show that these issues should be discussed by people who actually have some perspective....that is to say people who are actually practicing rather than 1st year optometry students, 4th year medical students and 1st year ophthalmology residents.

MedEyeMD

Awwwww poooor baby! He is upset that the primary eye doctors in this country that supply 75% of the eye care in this country use the term "optometric physician" in many states including the one I am attending optometry school in. There are already several state organizations that have optometric physician as an official name for OD's:

http://www.oregonoptometry.org/index.asp

http://www.njsop.org/

http://www.oaop.com/

http://www.eyes.org/

You might want to start making phone calls all over the country if your feelings are hurt.


PS: another fact for you to chew on Mr. Med Eye. Podiatrists who do not go to medical school are referred to my many STATE MEDICAL BOARDS as physicians (podiatric physicians), OMS surgeons are classified as physicians or surgeons and yes you guessed it they DO NOT go to medical school. Optometrists now parallel most of the functions of a medical ophthalmologist when it relates to primary eye care:

1) Independent doctorate level health care practitioner (Doctor of Optometry) just like a Doctor of Medicine or Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine.

2) Independent doctorate level prescriber
both can RX medications withing their scope of practice with complete autonomy. Both (OD's and MD/DO's) are subject to full liability.

3) Under medicare optometrists are classified as "Physicians" just as MD's and DO's

4) Optometrists (just like MD's or DO's) can diagnose and treat ocular disease with medications and with some surgery (a growing trend in some states----remember the ophthalmologist holding a bottle of atropine in the early 70's stating that optometrists would blind patients with it---look where we are now!)

5) According to a survey done by the American Academy of Otolaryngology and Head and Neck Surgery, 75% of Americans think an OD is an MD. And according to most other surveys I have read (I can supply you with links if you wish) roughly 85% of Americans cannot distinguish the difference between an ophthalmologist or an optometrist.

6) The several years I worked in eye care >95% of patients referred to optometrist as their eye doctor. Many of these patients were comanaged with opthalmologists.

Doctor versus Physician hmmmmm sounds like semantics to me....

I actually did a survey of 200 patients ( for an MPH class I was taking) and asked them if they thought physician or doctor were the same thing and 185 of them felt the terms were no different.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm--- Interesting


7) I know you understand the concept of supply and demand as well as market forces. Good now that's out of the way I will educate you----> Because 75% of primary eye care in this country is rendered by optometric physicians (optometrists) that indicates pre-emminence in that aspect of care. Ergo----> OD's are THE primary eye care provider.......primary eye care physicians......


PS: Get over yourself. If you are a good boy I might send you some patients in the future and we can go play golf! Do you have a good putting game? I can hit the ball pretty far.....


FUTURE OPTOMETRIC PHYSICIAN
specifically optometric glaucoma specialist (in the future)

 

[EyeDocPlus]

It is sad and frustrating to see yet another thread like this. These posts do nothing except further denigrate the relationships between OD's and OMD's.

I practice full-scope optometry. I don't call myself an optometric physician. I call myself an optometrist or a doctor of optometry. I don't know where you go to school, Oculomotor, but around here, people associate physician with MD. There is no reason to further confuse the public by throwing physician in there. Many of my patients have asked me over the years what the difference is between an OD and an OMD. I am always quick to explain that OMD's do surgery and OD's do not. Sure, I pop out some metallic foreign bodies and remove some rust rings with an Alger brush, but that doesn't make me a surgeon. I am real good at the medical management of glaucoma, but that doesn't make me a glaucoma specialist. I don't do SLT's or Trabs in my office. I also tell my patients that OMD's do 4 years of medical school before continuing with a 1 year internship and then 3 more years of ophthalmology training. Why bother trying to sell ourselves as something we are not? Why not just provide darn good eye care and let your results speak for themselves. Practice to the level that you feel comfortable with and refer everything else to a specialist.

I am thankful to practice in an area that has a very progressive group of OMD's to work with. I have access to glaucoma, cataract, cornea, refractive, oculo-plastics, and retinal surgeons all under one roof. They are very OD friendly because they realize that 2/3 of their referrals come from OD's. They provide CE meetings with special training on ocular disease and surgical co-management and they always make sure we get our patients back. OD's that refer to that group are fiercely loyal and bring other OD's to the group. That is how the OD/OMD relationship should work. Cooperation is key, not conflict and dissension.

Occulomotor, you don't speak for me and I would wager that you don't speak for the majority of OD's. You should concentrate on learning to get along and cooperate with your OMD counterparts.

 

[Oculomotor]

I understand what you are trying to say. BUT my school has this "optometric physician" as part of its indoctrination and culture. There ARE OD's that use this term for pete sake. My OD that I go to for routine care uses this term!!!! Do you think he is an idiot who is deceiving the public? He would have some choice words if you did! There are several state organizations that have this in their official title. Do not deride what some of your colleagues are using. What is so absurd is the disctinction between the word doctor and physican.

They mean the same damn thing!!!!!!! Especially when applied to a health care context. Optometric Doctor----Optometric Phyiscian....what the hell is the difference? It is just medicine trying to degrade optometry from a semantical level when podiatrists, OMS guys, etc.. are all considered physicians in most states----why the hell not optometrists? I digress -----I am working my a s s off to get this degree and I will call myself whatever is "legal". It still makes me an optometrist in either case and I have the balls to stand up for what I believe in. I am part of a dying breed of men that actually will "fight the good fight" and support my fellow colleagues to the end. (Hell I contributed to my home state's PAC and met with legislators as a student ---with my very limited time regarding my home state passing a bill---->and I still have very good grades---so thank you for the advice.)

And one more thing----I don't to need learn how to cooperate with OMD counterparts (I have been for years!)---I am doing rotations with two of them next year (by my own doing) and I have worked for OMD's before. Most of the OMD's I know are really helpful and respectful to me because they respect my passion and my willingness to do whatever it takes to get the job done.

Remember cooperation and intense individual passion can coexist!
People in this day in age are too concerned about being politically correct and in the process lose their soul. I have a soul and it is going strong.

Thanks for the advice

 

[jefguth]

I don't know where you go to school, Oculomotor, but around here, people associate physician with MD. There is no reason to further confuse the public by throwing physician in there.

Nova... they have that written all over everything. Clinic white coats even read "Student Optometric Physician." Aiya.

Interesting the school there was founded by DO physicians.

 

[Incandescent]

I understand what you are trying to say. BUT my school has this "optometric physician" as part of its indoctrination and culture. There ARE OD's that use this term for pete sake. My OD that I go to for routine care uses this term!!!! Do you think he is an idiot who is deceiving the public? He would have some choice words if you did! There are several state organizations that have this in their official title. Do not deride what some of your colleagues are using. What is so absurd is the disctinction between the word doctor and physican.

They mean the same damn thing!!!!!!! Especially when applied to a health care context. Optometric Doctor----Optometric Phyiscian....what the hell is the difference? It is just medicine trying to degrade optometry from a semantical level when podiatrists, OMS guys, etc.. are all considered physicians in most states----why the hell not optometrists? I digress -----I am working my a s s off to get this degree and I will call myself whatever is "legal". It still makes me an optometrist in either case and I have the balls to stand up for what I believe in. I am part of a dying breed of men that actually will "fight the good fight" and support my fellow colleagues to the end. (Hell I contributed to my home state's PAC and met with legislators as a student ---with my very limited time regarding my home state passing a bill---->and I still have very good grades---so thank you for the advice.)

And one more thing----I don't to need learn how to cooperate with OMD counterparts (I have been for years!)---I am doing rotations with two of them next year (by my own doing) and I have worked for OMD's before. Most of the OMD's I know are really helpful and respectful to me because they respect my passion and my willingness to do whatever it takes to get the job done.

Remember cooperation and intense individual passion can coexist!
People in this day in age are too concerned about being politically correct and in the process lose their soul. I have a soul and it is going strong.

Thanks for the advice

no my dear, they do not mean the same thing. lawyers and DPTs, PhD's in English and History, ophthalmologists and optometrists are all doctors, at least in this country. They all have a doctorate degree. But do you think all of these people thus have a right to call themselves physicians? By your logic, they do.

In the end, lawyers are called such because they went to law school. PhD's went to graduate school. Optometrists went to optometry school. Dentists went to Dental School. And Physicians went to medical school.

It really is that simple.

ps: In fact, the only truly terminal degree (arguably) out of all of these are those that require an original contribution to the field in the form of a dissertation. Perhaps only PhD's should truly be called doctors. Everyone else - we simply have a bachelor's equivalent as in other countries (MD = MBBS, JD = LLB, etc).

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I understand what you are trying to say. BUT my school has this "optometric physician" as part of its indoctrination and culture. There ARE OD's that use this term for pete sake. My OD that I go to for routine care uses this term!!!! Do you think he is an idiot who is deceiving the public? He would have some choice words if you did! There are several state organizations that have this in their official title. Do not deride what some of your colleagues are using. What is so absurd is the disctinction between the word doctor and physican.

Good gracious man, ease up on the colors, bolding, and underlining. Hurts my eyes

Anywho, all of my ODs (and I'm on number 4 now) seemed to think the term "optometric physician" was for insurance only and it never appeared anywhere in the office except on forms going out to insurance. As of right now, there is 1 OD who advertises as an optometric physician in my hometown - the other ODs think this guy is an arrogant jackass.

They mean the same damn thing!!!!!!! Especially when applied to a health care context. Optometric Doctor----Optometric Phyiscian....what the hell is the difference? It is just medicine trying to degrade optometry from a semantical level when podiatrists, OMS guys, etc.. are all considered physicians in most states----why the hell not optometrists? I digress -----I am working my a s s off to get this degree and I will call myself whatever is "legal". It still makes me an optometrist in either case and I have the balls to stand up for what I believe in. I am part of a dying breed of men that actually will "fight the good fight" and support my fellow colleagues to the end. (Hell I contributed to my home state's PAC and met with legislators as a student ---with my very limited time regarding my home state passing a bill---->and I still have very good grades---so thank you for the advice.)

Aha, you've tried to hit the nail on the head and seemed to have missed. Podiatrists are called, get this.... podiatrists. OMS guys are, presuming I got the acronym right, called oral surgeons. Dentists are called dentists, optometrists are called optometrists. I've never seen a dental physician nor an oral surgeon physician. I might have seen 1 or 2 podiatric physicians, but I tend to think not. You know what I have seen lots of.... chiropractic physicians. Really, do you want to be associated with those guys?

And one more thing----I don't to need learn how to cooperate with OMD counterparts (I have been for years!)---I am doing rotations with two of them next year (by my own doing) and I have worked for OMD's before. Most of the OMD's I know are really helpful and respectful to me because they respect my passion and my willingness to do whatever it takes to get the job done.

If you keep this outspoken fire about you, see how the MD crowd likes you then - other than playing nice to get referrals.

As I grow weary of saying, you will never find a medical student (or likely an actual MD) who is more sympathetic to optometry than I am. That being said, even I get turned off towards your profession by stuff like this. Even more importantly, legislators will get turned off by this stuff. They like reasoned discourse. I suggest giving it a shot.

 

[EyeDocPlus]

I have the balls to stand up for what I believe in. I am part of a dying breed of men that actually will "fight the good fight" and support my fellow colleagues to the end.

Yeah, it takes a lot of balls to continuously spout off rhetoric on the internet. Talk to me after you have been in practice for a few years. You'll find the real world is a lot different from that rosy picture they paint for you in optometry school. Call yourself whatever you want, but if you expect to gain respect and referrals from your physician counterparts, then you should concentrate on being a good optometrist and worry less about titles. Many state boards of optometry are very specific about what you can call yourself. You may find yourself before the board for review if you advertise yourself as a optometric physician glaucoma specialist. Not to mention the liability you will open yourself up to by calling yourself a specialist in glaucoma. When a patient's glaucoma goes bad, some hungry attorney will fry your butt for every dollar they can get. You should practice to the level of your training and comfort with ocular disease and refer everything else out to someone with more experience. Coming out of school with know-it-all and can-treat-it-all attitudes will get you into trouble. Once the practice has your name on the front door and you are assuming all liability for every patient that walks through your door, you'll know what I mean.

And one more thing----I don't to need learn how to cooperate with OMD counterparts (I have been for years!)---I am doing rotations with two of them next year (by my own doing) and I have worked for OMD's before. Most of the OMD's I know are really helpful and respectful to me because they respect my passion and my willingness to do whatever it takes to get the job done.

So if you are just an optometry student, how have you been cooperating with OMD's for years? Were you an optician or a technician?

 

[qwopty99]

So if you are just an optometry student, how have you been cooperating with OMD's for years? Were you an optician or a technician?

I think it's clear Oculomotor will be the first ever recipient of the Nobel Prize in Optometry. Heck, I think Oculomotor will sweep all of the Nobel Prizes for all the years to come. The standards and pedestals on which he places himself - in terms of abilities, ethics, understanding, OMD relationships etc. - is so far above every other practicing optometrist in the world, that Alfred Nobel himself will rise from his grave to honor him for his contributions to Optometry, Physiology, Physics, Chemistry, Literature, Economics, and of course, Peace.


Oculomotor defines optometric enlightenment. Future generations of optometry students will need only study from a book, the cover of which has a picture of him (holding his mom's hand), to achieve eye care nirvana.


I look forward to the day.

 

[Oculomotor]

qwopty99

So who the heck are you??????? Are you an optometrist or are you IN optometry school......Sorry if I haven't checked........And when I will the Nobel Prize I will invite you to my award ceremony....



You are ridiculous...........

 

[Oculomotor]

After doing some thinking.....I am beginning to agree with EyeDocPlus and VA hopeful.........The term optometrist is a very respectful one and synonymous with "eye doctor" for most of the people in this country. I feel like I have been caught up in this semantical nonsense.......I admittedly have... and now in retrospect I think I was wrong..At least I can admit it!!!!! From this point forward I will refer to myself as a future Optometrist (future primary eye doctor). The "Physician" thing sounds hokey---even the OMD's I am friends with at home think that "optometric physician" and "eye physician and surgeon" both are "reaching" and goofy for OD's and OMD's alike. I will focus my efforts on maintaining my high academic performance AND my legislative activities as a PAC contributer and activist.

Go Optometry!!!!!!! yeeehaw ( a redneck slang term that means "yeah")

 

[Pinkertinkle]

With Oculomotor on board, success is guaranteed.

 

[twintiger32]

just a comment: lots of patients don't realize that ophthalmologists are ocular surgeons, and that is exactly what we are. when told that we are scheduling them for cataract surgery, many are surprised when they find out that it is the us doing the actual surgery. There is no hocus pocus going on because an ophthalmologist is truly a physician and a surgeon. whereas an internist will refer to a surgeon for a chole, an ophthalmologist will play both parts.

After doing some thinking.....I am beginning to agree with EyeDocPlus and VA hopeful.........The term optometrist is a very respectful one and synonymous with "eye doctor" for most of the people in this country. I feel like I have been caught up in this semantical nonsense.......I admittedly have... and now in retrospect I think I was wrong..At least I can admit it!!!!! From this point forward I will refer to myself as a future Optometrist (future primary eye doctor). The "Physician" thing sounds hokey---even the OMD's I am friends with at home think that "optometric physician" and "eye physician and surgeon" both are "reaching" and goofy for OD's and OMD's alike. I will focus my efforts on maintaining my high academic performance AND my legislative activities as a PAC contributer and activist.

Go Optometry!!!!!!! yeeehaw ( a redneck slang term that means "yeah")

 

[Oculomotor]

Pinkertinkle,

Thanks Buddy! I wouldn't go as far as to say "success is guaranteed" through your wave of sarcasm but I can say with conviction that anything that I have wanted in life I have succeeded including organizational aspirations. I tell the rest of my fellow students that each one of you has a "voice" and can make a difference. You probably think that is an example of "idealism" yet I have seen a bill go before a state legislature amidst a barrage of "negativity and demeaning comments" by the ophthalmology--medicine side while the optometry side stated facts and was actually calm and methodical (New Mexico Minor Surgery bill that passed last year is one example.) This only helps optometry because "negativity" turns off senators and congressman. I did my part with the legislature as a student informing them about our training and it made a difference. My experience in running a business and sales has helped me tremendously in this regard as well........everything in professional life is sales---> doctor = salesperson, his skills and training = service he is providing, patient = customer purchasing service (by insurance or cash), optometry/medicine/podiatry/dentistry/etc.. = business profiting from the exchange. This is what it ALL boils down to no matter what dogmatic crap medical or optometry school feeds into our minds. Helping people is a tremendous benefit but just as important if not more is the business aspect of it. I just laugh my a s s off when I see doctors (OF WHATEVER TYPE OD--MD--DDS--etc..) overglorify themselves. In reality, they are no better than a lawyer, architect, engineer, teacher, etc.....all are just part of a collective system of interdependence. Optometry, Medicine, Dentistry, etc...all represent a "job" and that is it. The business aspect $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ (need more $'s?) drives the market, our PACS (OD and MD respectively), and is the REAL impetus for legislative battles between the profession. Patient care and safety is batted about all the time but it is just being "used" as a sugar coated topping. It's a joke-----Let's be real here.....Market share and competition is what it all boils down to.

Peace

 

[Oculomotor]

twintiger32,

I understand what you are trying to say BUT that term , "eye physician and surgeon" is tooo long. When I advertised for business the addage "short and to the point" was our mantra. When I worked as a optometric/ophthalmological techincian it was simple, "optometrists are primary eye doctors and ophthalmologists are eye surgeons." When explained to them this way patients understood that 99% of the time. Ophthalmologist sounds a hell of a lot better anyway than "eye physician and surgeon"!

 

[Oculomotor]

twintiger32,

I understand what you are trying to say BUT that term , "eye physician and surgeon" is tooo long. When I advertised for business the addage "short and to the point" was our mantra. When I worked as a optometric/ophthalmological techincian it was simple, "optometrists are primary eye doctors and ophthalmologists are eye surgeons." When explained to them this way, patients understood that 99% of the time. The word "physician" never came up once. Ophthalmologist sounds a hell of a lot better anyway than "eye physician and surgeon"!

I am out of breath saying that (eye physician and surgeon) twice in one paragraph...LOL (gasping for air)

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

twintiger32,

I understand what you are trying to say BUT that term , "eye physician and surgeon" is tooo long. When I advertised for business the addage "short and to the point" was our mantra. When I worked as a optometric/ophthalmological techincian it was simple, "optometrists are primary eye doctors and ophthalmologists are eye surgeons." When explained to them this way patients understood that 99% of the time. Ophthalmologist sounds a hell of a lot better anyway than "eye physician and surgeon"!

Forgive me if this offends any of the MDs here, but I always sort of equated ophthalmology with ob/gyn. Think about it - both can provide medical and surgical services to their given areas. FPs can learn enough to do much of the bread and butter stuff that the ob/gyns do, but even the ones that practice that will still punt if things go south. I see ODs and ophtho in the same way. Both can do all of the primary care, but you guys punt if things get too bad. This sort of thing is everywhere in medicine and tends to work pretty well most of the time: internists and (insert specialty here), sports medicine and ortho, psychology and psychiatry. Its just the way things are done.

 

[PDT4CNV]

These threads are pointless. They never go anywhere. It is quite clear to everyone what optometry wants. It is also quite clear that 4 years of optometry training is not equivalent to 8-10 of physician training and that performing surgery is not the only difference.

I don't hate optometrists, but I do hate these threads and the ridiculous comments made by all parties.

 

[KHE]

These threads are pointless. They never go anywhere. It is quite clear to everyone what optometry wants. It is also quite clear that 4 years of optometry training is not equivalent to 8-10 of physician training and that performing surgery is not the only difference.

I don't hate optometrists, but I do hate these threads and the ridiculous comments made by all parties.

I too hate the tedium and monotony of these threads but for about 2 years now I have tried my best to outline what the concerns of optometry are in a rational and non-confrontational manner and have pleaded with the practicing doctors on here to at least attempt to offer up a solution or a compromise. Nothing has been suggested other than an oblique reference to some sort of "surgical residency" for optometrists which is not practical, and really not what either side wants. Most of the time the only thing that gets posted is a "soundbite" from some AAO member claiming that they heard from a friend of a friend that some OD somewhere in Kentucky said that ODs should be able to do surgery. Despite a parade of practicing ODs on here claiming that ODs en masse are really not interested in performing true surgery and that it makes little economic sense for the overwhelming majority of optometrists to do so.

I have outlined the concerns multiple times. I'm literally begging for practicing ophthalmologists to offer up some sort of compromise because the only thing that is really getting accomplished is that lawyers are being made rich.

 

[Free Radicle]

tried to read most of the bill, what is up with all the crossed out lines? Most of the crossed out stuff is what I agree with. It seems like with it all crossed out it give carte blanche to do anything?

 

[qwopty99]

cool avatar... haha.

 

[PBEA]

I too hate the tedium and monotony of these threads but for about 2 years now I have tried my best to outline what the concerns of optometry are in a rational and non-confrontational manner and have pleaded with the practicing doctors on here to at least attempt to offer up a solution or a compromise. Nothing has been suggested other than an oblique reference to some sort of "surgical residency" for optometrists which is not practical, and really not what either side wants. Most of the time the only thing that gets posted is a "soundbite" from some AAO member claiming that they heard from a friend of a friend that some OD somewhere in Kentucky said that ODs should be able to do surgery. Despite a parade of practicing ODs on here claiming that ODs en masse are really not interested in performing true surgery and that it makes little economic sense for the overwhelming majority of optometrists to do so.

I have outlined the concerns multiple times. I'm literally begging for practicing ophthalmologists to offer up some sort of compromise because the only thing that is really getting accomplished is that lawyers are being made rich.

This is because organized ophthalmology has NO interest in helping the competition, their only interest is to disparage, ridicule, insult, and even eliminate Optometry . Primarily because they don't think Optometry should be doing ANYTHING "medical", because they claim Optometrists don't get "enough" training to deal with eye conditions. They would prefer that any exams performed by an Optometrist be limited to primarily refraction, contact lenses, low vision, and eye health screening. ANY/ALL pathology should go to the ophthalmologist. They would much rather an undertrained PCP handle all non-emergent "medical" eye conditions (as if) then an OD. This should serve as no surprise to anybody. You can beg all you want but you know the ol saying "crap in one hand......etc". Confronted by this dense rhetoric, optometrists have little choice but to pour money into the PAC machine.

 

[Oculomotor]

PBEA,

Your reply on here should be copied and issued in handouts to all of the optometry schools so students know what the climate is REALLY like out there. Seriously.....When I sat in meetings (hearings) before the state legislature when Optometry in my home state was in the process of passing legislation that would basically "update" the scope of practice to same level as most other states these were examples if responses by the Medical/Ophthalmology side that I overheard and saw with my own eyes:

Medicine, "Optometrists are not REAL doctors and have no business treating eye disease"

Senator," Doctor, optometrists have been treating disease safely in this state for 20 yrs or so. And they have been doing this in every state Doctor. Why are they the only doctorate level independent provider such as Podiatrists or Dentists, that has to work from a restrictive formulary? What is your response....?"

Medicine, " They (OD's) did not go to medical school or residency and they do not have the expertise..."
INTERUPTION
Sentator, "Dentists and Podiatrists don't go to medical school Doctor. Dentists have a 4 yr program just like optometry. It sounds to me like you are using "patient safety" as a dressing for politics and turf.. That is what I think.... And you didn't answer my question, why do OD's have to have a restrictive formulary when Dentists and Podiatrists dont? Hmmm?"

Medicine (No comment)

Here is another excerp that I logged into my memory..

Medicine, "Optometrists are just tring to find a way to become THE primary eye care provider rather than staying where they are in the place they should be in...."

Senator, " Doctor, according to my information, optometrists provide 80% of the primary eye care in this state, and many counties such as mine, they are the ONLY eye doctors there. They ALREADY ARE the primary eye care provider! (chuckling) Actually these national surveys indicate they provide 70% of the primary eye care in the United States."

The bill passed very successfully after months of bickerinig.

One only needs to go to state ophthalmology websites to see the level of understatement of OD capabilities in their descriptions of "the three O's"-----it is laughable. Comments such as "Optometrists can prescribe medications in some states to treat some disease"-----------ACTUALLY they treat disease in ALL states (RX Oral drugs in 45 states, topical in ALL, injectable in 32). To cooperate with another entity you need to have mutual respect. I have NEVER heard optometry lobbyist, leaders, etc....ever disrespect the ability or training of ophthalmologists. The reverse is always true (ophthalmology and medicine deriding optmetry.) Medicine does not respect optometry at an organizational level PERIOD. YOU CANNOT REASON WITH MEDICINE UNLESS YOU HAVE A BARGAINING CHIP (like a scope expansion bill with a lot of money and votes behind it)---THIS IS THE ONLY WAY.. I am giving money to my PACs as a student---amazing huh. PBEA has a geat point that OD's and future OD's need to contribute heavily to our PACS, in practice cooperate fully with good (OD friendly) ophthalmologists for the betterment of patient care, and promote educational expansion in optometry school to reflect technological-medical advancements in primary eye care. The future is bright.......Be vigilant OD students!


Again I will say that optometry and ophthalmology are great fields who will NEVER see eye to eye.......(that was funny--eye to eye..LOL)

 

[KHE]

PBEA,

Your reply on here should be copied and issued in handouts to all of the optometry schools so students know what the climate is REALLY like out there. Seriously.....When I sat in meetings (hearings) before the state legislature when Optometry in my home state was in the process of passing legislation that would basically "update" the scope of practice to same level as most other states these were examples if responses by the Medical/Ophthalmology side that I overheard and saw with my own eyes:

Medicine, "Optometrists are not REAL doctors and have no business treating eye disease"

Senator," Doctor, optometrists have been treating disease safely in this state for 20 yrs or so. And they have been doing this in every state Doctor. Why are they the only doctorate level independent provider such as Podiatrists or Dentists, that has to work from a restrictive formulary? What is your response....?"
)

We DEFINATELY need to see a link, or a reference to this thing because I am skeptical of that type of rhetoric, or at the very least I'm skeptical of the context.

Please provide which state, which committee, which bill number, which date etc etc. Ideally, a link to an actual transcript of the hearing would be nice.

 

[coppertopdoc]

tried to read most of the bill, what is up with all the crossed out lines? Most of the crossed out stuff is what I agree with. It seems like with it all crossed out it give carte blanche to do anything?

Any time that a bill will amend existing law, the legislation will show the current law and then cross out the existing language and replace it with the proposed changes.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

One only needs to go to state ophthalmology websites to see the level of understatement of OD capabilities in their descriptions of "the three O's"-----it is laughable. Comments such as "Optometrists can prescribe medications in some states to treat some disease"-----------ACTUALLY they treat disease in ALL states (RX Oral drugs in 45 states, topical in ALL, injectable in 32). To cooperate with another entity you need to have mutual respect. I have NEVER heard optometry lobbyist, leaders, etc....ever disrespect the ability or training of ophthalmologists. The reverse is always true (ophthalmology and medicine deriding optmetry.) Medicine does not respect optometry at an organizational level PERIOD. YOU CANNOT REASON WITH MEDICINE UNLESS YOU HAVE A BARGAINING CHIP (like a scope expansion bill with a lot of money and votes behind it)---THIS IS THE ONLY WAY.. I am giving money to my PACs as a student---amazing huh. PBEA has a geat point that OD's and future OD's need to contribute heavily to our PACS, in practice cooperate fully with good (OD friendly) ophthalmologists for the betterment of patient care, and promote educational expansion in optometry school to reflect technological-medical advancements in primary eye care. The future is bright.......Be vigilant OD students!

Then you're not paying attention, I've heard ODs say lots of nasty things about ophthalmology, see ODWire or, often time, legislative battles. I've also seen a large number of MDs who, for the most part, don't care what you guys do. Don't generalize based on the national organizations, that's what MDs do to you guys and we know how much y'all like that.

You don't need a bargaining chip, you just have to prove that you're good enough to do what it is you want to do. You want to do X, show us a decent study comparing ODs and MDs in a state that already allows ODs to do it. Even going beyond that, you guys have got to standardize your schools more. Talk to practicing ODs and compare their experiences doing exams, procedures, injections, whatnot from one school to another.

 

[EyeDocPlus]

Even going beyond that, you guys have got to standardize your schools more. Talk to practicing ODs and compare their experiences doing exams, procedures, injections, whatnot from one school to another.

That is a good point. My class in optometry school was trained and tested on IM, IV and sub-conj. injections. Some other OD's that I have talked to that graduated at the same time or before me did not receive this training. If OD's expect to be able to inject chalazia, do FLAN's, or whatever across the US, then all of our schools need to be training students and our competency needs to be tested before license to do injections is given. I'm curious to know how many schools of optometry are currently training their students on injections and FLAN's.

 

[IndianaOD]

Yeehaw, it has been awhile since we've had a little ego slug fest on here. Thank goodness, SDN was getting really boring!

I figure I have 3 years of concentrated eye education and training, year 3 and 4 plus residency (the first 2 years were systemic like med school though included quite a bit of eye goodness). Same as my good old OMD pals (3 years of eye training).

If I needed cataract surgery or a vitectomy I'd happily see an OMD.

If I had blurred vision, headaches, diplopia, trouble focusing, red eye, dry eye, a foreign body, needed a diabetic DFE, or just wanted to know everything was OK I'd go an OD.

OMDs doing primary care dilutes their surgical abilities. ODs messing with invasive surgery would dilute their primary care abilities.

The two camps COULD be great together, but when the almighty dollar is involved it will never happen.

 

[DOCTORSAIB]

If I needed cataract surgery or a vitectomy I'd happily see an OMD.

If I had blurred vision, headaches, diplopia, trouble focusing, red eye, dry eye, a foreign body, needed a diabetic DFE, or just wanted to know everything was OK I'd go an OMD.

If I needed glasses, CL's or a basic eye exam I'd go see an OD.

Fixed that for you.

 

[speyeder]

Fixed that for you.

 

[KHE]

Yeehaw, it has been awhile since we've had a little ego slug fest on here. Thank goodness, SDN was getting really boring!

I figure I have 3 years of concentrated eye education and training, year 3 and 4 plus residency (the first 2 years were systemic like med school though included quite a bit of eye goodness). Same as my good old OMD pals (3 years of eye training).

If I needed cataract surgery or a vitectomy I'd happily see an OMD.

If I had blurred vision, headaches, diplopia, trouble focusing, red eye, dry eye, a foreign body, needed a diabetic DFE, or just wanted to know everything was OK I'd go an OD.

OMDs doing primary care dilutes their surgical abilities. ODs messing with invasive surgery would dilute their primary care abilities.

The two camps COULD be great together, but when the almighty dollar is involved it will never happen.

Cmon here....

There is absolutely no value to this posting other than to regenerate controversy so that you can satisfy your petty little desire to stir the pot up. In my neighborhood, the term for that is a "**** disturber."

In what way was the discussion advanced by that posting?
In what way did anybody learn anything from that posting?
In what way was there any sort of thought provoking points or concepts made?

In essence....ZERO.

Two Thumbs Waaaaay down for that posting.

 

[IndianaOD]

Cmon here....

There is absolutely no value to this posting other than to regenerate controversy so that you can satisfy your petty little desire to stir the pot up. In my neighborhood, the term for that is a "**** disturber."

In what way was the discussion advanced by that posting?
In what way did anybody learn anything from that posting?
In what way was there any sort of thought provoking points or concepts made?

In essence....ZERO.

Two Thumbs Waaaaay down for that posting.

For your info; the two replies were even more worthless. Sometime the MDs will realize the fact that med school teaches next to nothing in regards to eye care and all their eye knowledge is gained in a 3 year time period.

Half these residents don't know how to use a SL or BIO until after the trans year when they start year 1 of 3.

Oh, and 2 thumbs WWWAAAYYYYY down for your response!

 

[Oculomotor]

Indiana OD is just presenting a viewpoint......Hey KHE, isn't that the point of a DISCUSSION forum? Good lord......(I know I know, according to KHE if I am an optometry student, medical student, first year ophthalmology resident, etc....my opinion does not have validity)----well KHE, IT DOES. Right now I am immersed in academic optometry, philosophical-endoctrinating (feed your mind a bunch of !!??$@)--optometry , legislative-political optometry and some clinical optometry. What Indiana OD says is the TRUTH. Logically anyone with a primate cortex would understand that a health-care practitioner who is specialized in primary care (i.e. an optometrist) practicing and performing that function day after day is going to be better suited for primary care (i.e. primary eye care) than a surgeon (i.e. many ophthalmologists--not all) who are more concerned about performing surgery and letting low grade technicians do what they percieve as "scut work." Primary Eye Care meaning--primary medical eye care, minor surgical procedures, and co-management of surgery. Take for instance a family doctor versus an endocrinologist. They both can treat diabetes BUT in regards to doing primary care---the endocrinologist would be at a huge disadvantage. Just like the family practice doctor could not treat many of the disorders the endocrinologist (a specialist) could treat beyond superficial. The statistical fact stands that 75% of patients primary eye doctors in the United States of America are Optometrists.

 

[KHE]

For your info; the two replies were even more worthless. Sometime the MDs will realize the fact that med school teaches next to nothing in regards to eye care and all their eye knowledge is gained in a 3 year time period.

Half these residents don't know how to use a SL or BIO until after the trans year when they start year 1 of 3.

Oh, and 2 thumbs WWWAAAYYYYY down for your response!

Of course their response was ridiculous but it was in response to YOUR ridiculous posting! Why would you want to bait them, if for no other reason than to satisfy your 3rd grade desire to get in the sandbox with them and throw sand? And this isn't the first time you've done this....you've revived a number of long dead threads for no reason other than to carry on bashing commercial practice, mock naive optometry and pre-optometry students, inciting flame wars with ophthalmologists, and to brag about how IU is the "best" optometry school around. I mean seriously....smarten up.

 

[KHE]

Indiana OD is just presenting a viewpoint......Hey KHE, isn't that the point of a DISCUSSION forum? Good lord......(I know I know, according to KHE if I am an optometry student, medical student, first year ophthalmology resident, etc....my opinion does not have validity)----well KHE, IT DOES. Right now I am immersed in academic optometry, philosophical-endoctrinating (feed your mind a bunch of !!??$@)--optometry , legislative-political optometry and some clinical optometry. What Indiana OD says is the TRUTH. Logically anyone with a primate cortex would understand that a health-care practitioner who is specialized in primary care (i.e. an optometrist) practicing and performing that function day after day is going to be better suited for primary care (i.e. primary eye care) than a surgeon (i.e. many ophthalmologists--not all) who are more concerned about performing surgery and letting low grade technicians do what they percieve as "scut work." Primary Eye Care meaning--primary medical eye care, minor surgical procedures, and co-management of surgery. Take for instance a family doctor versus an endocrinologist. They both can treat diabetes BUT in regards to doing primary care---the endocrinologist would be at a huge disadvantage. Just like the family practice doctor could not treat many of the disorders the endocrinologist (a specialist) could treat beyond superficial. The statistical fact stands that 75% of patients primary eye doctors in the United States of America are Optometrists.

blah blah blah blah blah.....same old tired rhetoric. Give me a ring in 5 years when you have a frame of reference, ok?

(And before you consider it, please spare me all the stories about how many MDs are in your family, how many friends you have who are MDs, DDSs, etc. how you talk to this MD and that MD because until you actually get out there and start practicing, you haven't got a clue. You may think you do, but you simply don't. I know that no amount of explanation is going to get that through your thick skull but take a leap of faith on this one and trust me....it's true.)

 

[IndianaOD]

blah blah blah blah blah.....same old tired rhetoric. Give me a ring in 5 years when you have a frame of reference, ok?

(And before you consider it, please spare me all the stories about how many MDs are in your family, how many friends you have who are MDs, DDSs, etc. how you talk to this MD and that MD because until you actually get out there and start practicing, you haven't got a clue. You may think you do, but you simply don't. I know that no amount of explanation is going to get that through your thick skull but take a leap of faith on this one and trust me....it's true.)

I don't think it takes an OD to defend the OMDs. At least we don't have an OMD bashing thread stickied over on the OD forums.

 

[qwopty99]

you can always start one.

you can start a pro-optometric surgery thread. if things are discussed rationally, there's no reason why it would be closed.

 

[Doctor]

I know you understand the concept of supply and demand as well as market forces. Good now that's out of the way I will educate you----> Because 75% of primary eye care in this country is rendered by optometric physicians (optometrists) that indicates pre-emminence in that aspect of care. Ergo----> OD's are THE primary eye care provider.......primary eye care physicians......

Let's get this straight. An O.D. is not a medical doctor, nor a physician. Optometrists may have a Dr. in front of their name as a dentist or a Ph.D. or some nurses do, but that doesn't mean any of these groups are a Doctor in the colloquial "physician" sense of the term.

If you haven't been to medical school you aren't an actual Doctor, in the medical sense, even if you did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, or take a few more courses at Nursing school, or go to dental/optometry/chiropractic school, etc. Going to an actual medical school is the only way to become a physician.