optometry isnt worth it

[eyestrain]

did you

huh?

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[posner]

Posner,
thank you, thank you ,thank you
Its good for students to hear that there is at least a possibility that you can have a nice life in Optometry.
The post quoting gross income of hair salons and dollar stores was an obvious attempt to inflame the unhappy O.D. sentiments , but does not make any sense.... Business 101 "profit margin" was conveintly overlooked. A fine dining restaurant can gross a million and loose money while a hot dog stand can gross 40K and make 30k.

Comparing a business to an other business is like comparing apples to oranges....comparing a health professional to an other business is like comparing apples to Llamas.

At first reading that other post I was angry but that changed, in fact I have evolved quite a bit reading through this forum , I used to get scared reading some of the negative posts here.... and then that changed to anger but now I'm beginning to understand the big picture a little better. Optometry is not an easy field to find success....so ! It seems to take a lot of work, common sense and with some good luck you can make a decent living doing something you like and that you can be proud of yourself and you can help some people along the way , not so bad . I can see why some O.D.s become so frustrated, especially if they went into it with false expectations of easily achieving big bucks and status .... so I no longer get scared or angry reading negative posts, I realize people just have to vent .Thanks again, for your giving balance to this forum with some positive input. Please continue.

BTW... for a dollar store to produce 1.75 mil in annual revenue they would have to sell an avg. $4800 a day worth of merchandise 7 days a week , they seem to be doing well but thats really a stretch , don't you think ?

It is my pleasure....I didnt mean to suggest that finding financial success in optometry is easy, but it hasnt been terribly difficult either. If you do your best to take care of patients, research your desired area of practice, and apply some common sense, it is possible. Good Luck to all.

Posner

 

[broadway]

I wouldnt be too concerned about what other businesses/industries are grossing. I have said it many times before, it is not what you make but what you keep. Furthermore, It has been my experience that finding the best practice for purchase is not accomplished by scouring classified ads in the back of Review of Optometry.

Many of you make it sound like every person you bump into on the street is making $150K plus per year, even the local dog groomer. I would maintain this is simply not true. Optometry is a great profession. I love what I do. I call my own shots. My wife and I drive very nice late model cars that are paid for, I live in a very nice home, I put a considerable amount of money away each month in investments, and I dont worry about how I am going to pay my bills or how I can afford a vacation. Our two children won't have to worry about their college educations, and with a little luck, I will be semi-retired(two days a week) by 52(18 years from now). LIfe is good. Best of all, I get to help people every day.

If you are so depressed about your business, then sell it and move on so you can go complain in another forum somewhere else. Stop trying to drag everyone else down around here...it is getting old.

Posner

I meet to many ODs that are unhappy with there choice of profession. I think the students should hear both sides of the story. Most of these students will be working commercial or at Walmart. Few will have their own practice (unfortunately). I've had some experience in buying and selling practices and the numbers are bad. The broker will say he's doing $400,000 on 3 Dr. days after 30 years of practice. Well he's working 3 days b/c he can't book 5 days. Now everyone is thinking maybe he want's to work 3 days, O.K. so hire someone. Most optometrists for whatever reason don't go out on their own. I have to go so here is my advise buy a practice or start your own.

 

[KHE]

I meet to many ODs that are unhappy with there choice of profession. I think the students should hear both sides of the story. Most of these students will be working commercial or at Walmart. Few will have their own practice (unfortunately). I've had some experience in buying and selling practices and the numbers are bad. The broker will say he's doing $400,000 on 3 Dr. days after 30 years of practice. Well he's working 3 days b/c he can't book 5 days. Now everyone is thinking maybe he want's to work 3 days, O.K. so hire someone. Most optometrists for whatever reason don't go out on their own. I have to go so here is my advise buy a practice or start your own.

Optometry is worth it if you practice in an area where you can gain access to medical insurance panels.

If you can not, then in my opinion it is NOT worth it. Other people may feel differently but I think virtually all students coming out of school want to practice to the extent their license allows and access to medical insurance plans is the key to that.

 

[still_confused]

I think virtually all students coming out of school want to practice to the extent their license allows and access to medical insurance plans is the key to that.

i guess that is why we need to support organized optometry even with all thier flaws.

so um..OD POWER? march towards washington?

 

[posner]

Optometry is worth it if you practice in an area where you can gain access to medical insurance panels.

If you can not, then in my opinion it is NOT worth it. Other people may feel differently but I think virtually all students coming out of school want to practice to the extent their license allows and access to medical insurance plans is the key to that.

I echo these sentiments entirely. It is almost like this has been said before

 

[Ryan_eyeball]

Optometry is worth it if you practice in an area where you can gain access to medical insurance panels.

If you can not, then in my opinion it is NOT worth it. Other people may feel differently but I think virtually all students coming out of school want to practice to the extent their license allows and access to medical insurance plans is the key to that.

I would be eating more Roman noodles if I couldn't bill BCBS, Aetna, Preferred Health for any medical evaluations. I would go crazy in California if I was only doing refractions all day long.

KHE is exactly right no medical plan access = "refraction burnout", loss of professional image (what you can't treat a red eye), and huge loss of potential income.

 

[guest11]

Does the degree of difficulty gaining access to medical insurance panels depend on areas within a state or from state to state? For example, is it harder to gain access in Southern or Northern California? Or is more difficult say gaining access in California vs New York?

 

[Elfego Baca]

I beg to differ - don't forget about retinal detachments and many other painful/horrible ocular diseases that optometrists can discover.

If it was painful, even a monkey-doc in a Wal-Mart is probably smart enough to follow up on it. The odds of a young, healthy non-highly myopic patient having a sight-threatening condition that would be picked up on a dilated exam but not on an undilated exam are extremely remote. (See an editorial in the AOA Journal about 7 or 8 years ago to the effect that routine dilation is probably a waste of time and money.) The bottom line is that the odds of going blind or having significant permanent vision loss because you went to an unskilled doc-in-the-box instead of a super-duper state-of-the-art private doc are astronomical. Consumers/Patients realize this and that's why commercial optometry is thriving and why private-practice docs without access to medical panels are eating poo-poo. Not so with dentistry, where competence is rewarded. Most lazy, incompetent OD's with a decent personality can go an entire career without being on the wrong end of a malpractice lawsuit.

 

[still_confused]

The odds of a young, healthy non-highly myopic patient having a sight-threatening condition that would be picked up on a dilated exam but not on an undilated exam are extremely remote.

lets say its one in a billion, as an optometrist will you skip dilating because only one in a billion will have a problem? isnt it your job to ensure the well being of everyone of your patients?? as a healthcare professional that is charged with someone else's well being, its great to see that you feel that any form of incomplete care is appropriate for your patients.

and walmart doctors are not incompetent, way to show your ignorance. they pass the same boards and took the same classes as everyone else. they chose their mode of practice for their reasons.

Are you going into dentistry? I hope so because we dont need people like you in our profession.

 

[KHE]

Does the degree of difficulty gaining access to medical insurance panels depend on areas within a state or from state to state? For example, is it harder to gain access in Southern or Northern California? Or is more difficult say gaining access in California vs New York?

The answer is "it depends."

The issue is really a plan by plan issue, not a state by state issue.

For example, you may have have a plan that discriminates against ODs and they may cover a large number of lives in an entire state. If that's the case, that may not be a great state to practice in.

You may have have a plan that discriminates against ODs and they may cover a large number of lives in a small portion of a state. In that case, as long as you aren't practicing in that part of the state, it doesn't matter.

Other times you have a discriminatory plan that covers very few lives and in this case, it really doesn't matter because so few patients have that plan. It's annoying not having access to that small number of patients but since its small, it doesn't affect your overall business model that much.

So again, plan by plan... not state by state. However, as an example....if most Microsoft employees have Aetna HMO, and you can't access Aetna HMO plan, then Redmond Washington might not be a good place to start a practice.

 

[luvthemhogs]

The answer is "it depends."

The issue is really a plan by plan issue, not a state by state issue.

For example, you may have have a plan that discriminates against ODs and they may cover a large number of lives in an entire state. If that's the case, that may not be a great state to practice in.

You may have have a plan that discriminates against ODs and they may cover a large number of lives in a small portion of a state. In that case, as long as you aren't practicing in that part of the state, it doesn't matter.

Other times you have a discriminatory plan that covers very few lives and in this case, it really doesn't matter because so few patients have that plan. It's annoying not having access to that small number of patients but since its small, it doesn't affect your overall business model that much.

So again, plan by plan... not state by state. However, as an example....if most Microsoft employees have Aetna HMO, and you can't access Aetna HMO plan, then Redmond Washington might not be a good place to start a practice.

I was wondering if you have any idea (or anyone else for that matter) as to how often health insurance companies will change what doctors are and aren't allowed on their plan. For instance, let's say an insurance is inaccessible to you today. What is the likelihood that five years down the road they will change their policies and allow OD's? Do these companies often change their policies?

 

[guest11]

Thanks for answering my question KHE, the information you provided definitely cleared things up!

 

[KHE]

I was wondering if you have any idea (or anyone else for that matter) as to how often health insurance companies will change what doctors are and aren't allowed on their plan. For instance, let's say an insurance is inaccessible to you today. What is the likelihood that five years down the road they will change their policies and allow OD's? Do these companies often change their policies?

In my experience, basically the answer is NO. And to be honest with you, it's not even worth the hassle. Just practice somewhere else. Trying to get an HMO to do ANYTHING, much less somthing they don't normally do or is flat out against their policy is about as easy as herding cats.

For some plans that don't allow new providers because the plan is "full" you can sometimes gain access by scouring their provider list and pointing out to them that some of the providers on their list are no longer practicing. I had one plan in my area like this and 3 of their OD providers were DEAD. After pointing this out, I was able to sneak my way in onto that one plan.

 

[Elfego Baca]

lets say its one in a billion, as an optometrist will you skip dilating because only one in a billion will have a problem? isnt it your job to ensure the well being of everyone of your patients?? as a healthcare professional that is charged with someone else's well being, its great to see that you feel that any form of incomplete care is appropriate for your patients.

and walmart doctors are not incompetent, way to show your ignorance. they pass the same boards and took the same classes as everyone else. they chose their mode of practice for their reasons.

Are you going into dentistry? I hope so because we dont need people like you in our profession.

Before you get on your high horse, try reading my posts more carefully and make an attempt to understand the point that I was making. I didn't advocate routinely not dilating asymptomatic patients who are not at risk for peripheral retinal disease. (I did note, however, that not routinely dilating such patients is a *supportable* position that merits some thought and examination. I suggest you read the Optometry and Vision Science editorial that I mentioned. It was by former Editor and OSU Professor Mark Bullimore. He makes the argument that such dilation is NOT a cost-effective use of medical resources, so he argues against your advocacy of dilation for a one-in-a-billion problem, even when the odds are much less remote than that.) I was pointing out that typical young healthy patients feel that the odds are extremely remote that something awful will happen to them if they go to a less-than-competent OD compared to going to a less-than-competent dentist. Also, the skill-set required to perform a basic optometric examination on a young healthy patient without causing injury or pain is much less than that for a relatively simple dental examination (e.g., compare fitting a soft contact lens to drilling a tooth and filling a cavity.) IMHO, that's why there are more doc-in-the-box OD's than DDS's. What's your explanation for the disparity?

As far as the competency of commercial/Wal-Mart doctors -- yes, some of them are good and some private-practice OD's are butchers. (Yes, they all passed boards, but that's hardly a ringing endorsement for someone's level of professional competence and expertise.) However, you'll see a lot more doc-in-the-box places charging extra for dilations compared to private doctors, which gives some indication of the commercial docs commitment to quality eye care. But who knows....maybe the suits that control the doctors at these places by threatening lease termination when the gross doesn't increase 15% each year have read Bullimore's editorial, and this is their contribution to reducing health care costs.

Still confused?

 

[dixon11]

http://gateway.nlm.nih.gov/MeetingAbstracts/102272807.html

 

[still_confused]

hat's why there are more doc-in-the-box OD's than DDS's. What's your explanation for the disparity?


Still confused?

there is nothing to gain for walmart having a dentist, unless they manage to secure 99cent crowns in china they can sell. optometrist are able to facilitate selling glasses, thats why they are in walmarts and not dentists. it has nothing to do with "skills."

and i have read that article. but so what. "cost -effective"??? are you serious? so the most cost effective thing to do is to just give young patients refractions and send them on thier way, in fact forget refractions, just auto refract. SOME commercial docs do the bare minimum, are you planning on doing that? What I am saying is its wrong to not give your patient the best care you can manage. Do people do otherwise? Of course, but that is the mentality that makes optometry look bad.


and no, and you should get out of my horse's way

 

[KHE]

there is nothing to gain for walmart having a dentist, unless they manage to secure 99cent crowns in china they can sell. optometrist are able to facilitate selling glasses, thats why they are in walmarts and not dentists. it has nothing to do with "skills."

and i have read that article. but so what. "cost -effective"??? are you serious? so the most cost effective thing to do is to just give young patients refractions and send them on thier way, in fact forget refractions, just auto refract. SOME commercial docs do the bare minimum, are you planning on doing that? What I am saying is its wrong to not give your patient the best care you can manage. Do people do otherwise? Of course, but that is the mentality that makes optometry look bad.


and no, and you should get out of my horse's way

We should do testing and perform procedures based on the patients symptoms, or in the absence of symptoms the patients risk factors for having a problem.

I had a physical just today...and my doctor did not send me for a colonoscopy even though there is a slim chance I may have colon cancer. Why? Because I'm not over 40 and I don't have risk factors in my family.

There are generally accepted guidelines for how often a dilated retinal examination should be performed. Optometrists and ophthalmologists may differ on the exact frequency with this issue but both positions are reasonable and basically defensible.

The moral of the story is you don't just carpet bomb testing. If we did, then every single person with a stomach ache would be sent for a GI series, and every single headache would get an MRI and every single bout of diarrhea would get a colonoscopy because of that "one in a billion chance."

 

[still_confused]

i dont think dilating a measly once a year (or two depending on how often a patient comes in) to look around is too much to ask.

 

[Ben Chudner]

i dont think dilating a measly once a year (or two depending on how often a patient comes in) to look around is too much to ask.

Your patients might. In my office we dilate evey other year in patients under the age of 60 unless there is something that comes up in the chief complaint, history, or exam that necessitates dilation. Patients over the age of 60 are dilated every year. When I first came out of residency, and got a job working for an MD, I dilated every patient every year until I noticed he did not for his younger patients and so I adopted his policy. I have found that patients are more likely to return evey year when they know there may not be a dilation. Plus, with the new technology like non-myd cameras, optomap, etc, if there is something there, the odds are the photo will pick it up and I will dilate to verify.

 

[Ryan_eyeball]

Your patients might. In my office we dilate evey other year in patients under the age of 60 unless there is something that comes up in the chief complaint, history, or exam that necessitates dilation. Patients over the age of 60 are dilated every year. When I first came out of residency, and got a job working for an MD, I dilated every patient every year until I noticed he did not for his younger patients and so I adopted his policy. I have found that patients are more likely to return evey year when they know there may not be a dilation. Plus, with the new technology like non-myd cameras, optomap, etc, if there is something there, the odds are the photo will pick it up and I will dilate to verify.

This line of thoughts is pretty much on the money. I won't dilate every year, but believe every two to three years is appropriate for a young asymptomatic patient. I still recommend yearly visits, because I still see decently inside an undilate eye for posterior pole problems.

 

[sunyopt]

Anyone who thinks it isn't worth it has never lived in the real world. Unless you are born with access to a significant sums of money and incredible natural business skills you will be making far less for far more work. Sure you make less than an MD but you chose optometry because you didn't want more school among other things.

To those that posted gross revenues earlier and cited you can make far more with less education, you forgot to mention where you are going to get the thousands to start the business and stating gross revenues only shows that you don't have any concept of profit. And what about the post that stated Lens Crafters makes $10,000 a day on glasses but for some reason you have not chosen to focus on glasses.

Finally, what happend to those of you that choose the profession because you 'wanted the lifestyle'?

 

[blazenmadison]

Anyone who thinks it isn't worth it has never lived in the real world. Unless you are born with access to a significant sums of money and incredible natural business skills you will be making far less for far more work.

 

[Elfego Baca]

there is nothing to gain for walmart having a dentist, unless they manage to secure 99cent crowns in china they can sell. optometrist are able to facilitate selling glasses, thats why they are in walmarts and not dentists. it has nothing to do with "skills."

and i have read that article. but so what. "cost -effective"??? are you serious? so the most cost effective thing to do is to just give young patients refractions and send them on thier way, in fact forget refractions, just auto refract. SOME commercial docs do the bare minimum, are you planning on doing that? What I am saying is its wrong to not give your patient the best care you can manage. Do people do otherwise? Of course, but that is the mentality that makes optometry look bad.


and no, and you should get out of my horse's way

Good point on the optical profits being an incentive to have OD's rather than MD's, but it doesn't explain the recent trend towards putting small "primary care" clinics in big-box retail outlets. These are usually staffed by some sort of nurse practitioner and can handle simple procedures such as screenings, etc. I'm honestly not sure what the incentive is for retailers to have these clinics in their stores, unless it's as a loss leader. It may be that the costs are virtually nil, but as has been pointed out, it doesn't take that much to start up a dental office. Perhaps there's yet another reason why you don't see dentist-in-box retail operations.

For whatever reason, organized optometry is more aggressive than organized ophthalmology when it comes to frequency of exams and dilations. (Compare Academy of Ophthalmology guidelines to those of the AOA.) One way or the other, it's naive to think that you can do unlimited procedures on a patient to try and uncover extremely remotely-occurring medical conditions. You could do a dilated fundus exam on a healthy patient every *three* months and you'd cut the incidence of vision loss due to peripheral retinal disease even more, but patients wouldn't stand for it, insurers wouldn't pay for it, and the medical resources you'd waste could be better used elsewhere. Cost (time and money) vs. effectiveness is *always* an issue in any profession.

I don't look down on Wal-Mart docs or the young OD's who staff them. Any job is a good one when you get out of school. You need to pay off your loans and get started in the profession, and most young docs are idealistic and energetic enough to do a good job. OTOH, I view docs who've been at Wal-Marts for a long time as the bottom-feeders of optometry. Eventually you're going to have to compromise your own standards or lower them enough to please the pod-people who run the commercial optical operations that are the tail wagging the dog. They'll have you by the balls because "your patients" for the most part are loyal to the store location, not you, and all you've worked for can be taken from you if they don't renew your lease. (Classic scenario is that the regional manager hands over your lease to a pretty recent female grad that he hopes to bang.) The goodwill you're creating by being a good doc is for the benefit of the optical shop and the store, not you. What often happens is that some hack-doctor "owns" a number of locations and hires a revolving door of young docs who work at each location until they burn out. The doctor-owner might come in one day per week at one or two of the locations, or may not show up at all, and basically just take in the difference between the young doc's salary and the practice gross minus the 15% vig -- pretty good money for sitting on your butt and doing very little. Of course, these "owner-docs" could lose their leases, but somehow that never seems to happen, probably because their young slave-docs do decent work until they move on to a better work environment. Even if you get along great with your regional manager that can all change in a few years when he or she moves to a better job in the corporate chain and a new regional manager moves in, eager to move up the ladder by trying to increase optical profits in whatever way possible. Guess what that means for the OD....... Would anyone in their right mind spend four years working hard in optometry school and accumulating a pile of piling debt to spend the rest of their live dealing with this kind of crap?

 

[Ben Chudner]

Good point on the optical profits being an incentive to have OD's rather than MD's, but it doesn't explain the recent trend towards putting small "primary care" clinics in big-box retail outlets. These are usually staffed by some sort of nurse practitioner and can handle simple procedures such as screenings, etc. I'm honestly not sure what the incentive is for retailers to have these clinics in their stores, unless it's as a loss leader. It may be that the costs are virtually nil, but as has been pointed out, it doesn't take that much to start up a dental office. Perhaps there's yet another reason why you don't see dentist-in-box retail operations.

I think having those "primary care" care clinics serves two functions for the boxes. First, those patients will have to buy their cold & flu medicine somewhere after they see the NP. Second, I think the ultimate goal for the big boxes (Wal-Mart especially) is to make their stores the only place people have to go get everything they need. The Super Wal-Mart in our county has a nail and hair salon, a bank, an optical, as well as groceries, pharmacy, clothing, electronics, etc. Having a dentist there, even though there is not a retail side may make sense so that it brings even more people into the store. At the end of the day, the big boxes live and die on volume. They need butts in the store, and if they believe adding a dental clinic will achieve that goal, then you will see a DDS right next to the OD and NP. I'm not making any predictions, just stating what the justification would be.

 

[Eyegirl2k7]

$247000 in debt. ICO grad.
3 days in corporate optometry making $100 K
Exhausted from seeing about a million patinets a day.
Don't know what I think about it yet.

 

[Ryan_eyeball]

$247000 in debt. ICO grad.
3 days in corporate optometry making $100 K
Exhausted from seeing about a million patinets a day.
Don't know what I think about it yet.

$247,000 in debt, now i don't feel so bad about my own at $109k when i graduated.

Making a $100k on 3 days corporate, you are seeing a TON of patients to make that on three days a week.

I won't see more than 2 an hour, otherwise I feel like I'm rushing the patients too much.

 

[bournehall]

You need to see the reality of optometry. Not what the schools or the AOA tells you. Seriously, before you get too old to turn back you should consider another medical profession. I have done OK by optometry (practicing 24 years) but would be a hell of alot better off having gone to dental/med school. There is no way I would recommend to a young person to go to optometry school if they have more than one functioning brain cell.

Soooo depressing!! And why are you up so early on a Sunday morning?

I'm going to ICO in less than a month...and of course I have considered the debt associated with Chicago. I started a thread with questions about paying off the loans and thought the response was positive. Everybody gets into this debt and turn out just fine. So how could you have changed your present situation? Borrowed less, not started your own practice right away, residency training? Or where you not so happy to do optometry school? Why didn't you go to med school to begin with?

okay, maybe you need a nice yummy breakfast to put you in a better mood.

oh and please feel free to give more ICO advice...thanks doc.

 

[bournehall]

If you are in debt 247K for school you need serious financial planning or someone to teach you what fiscal responsibility is all about.

$247000 in debt. ICO grad.
3 days in corporate optometry making $100 K
Exhausted from seeing about a million patinets a day.
Don't know what I think about it yet.

 

[KHE]

i dont think dilating a measly once a year (or two depending on how often a patient comes in) to look around is too much to ask.

The standard of care for a patient with mild non proliferative diabetic retinopathy is a dilated examination once per year.

Does it not stand to reason that the standard of care for a young healthy person with no risk factors for retinal disease be something "less" than that?

 

[posner]

You need to see the reality of optometry. Not what the schools or the AOA tells you. Seriously, before you get too old to turn back you should consider another medical profession. I have done OK by optometry (practicing 24 years) but would be a hell of alot better off having gone to dental/med school. There is no way I would recommend to a young person to go to optometry school if they have more than one functioning brain cell.

You need to go elsewhere. You have not amounted to much professionally, and just as several other like-minded ODs, you blame the profession. I think that making new ODs and prospective students aware of the reality of the profession is one thing. Spinning it as negatively as you have and suggesting one would be a fool to choose optometry because you have fizzled out, is plain wrong. You sound like a grass is greener kind of guy, and it just isnt that way. Not every single MD or DDS makes $300K a year. There are plenty that make $80K-$120K. As I have said before, people such as yourself would likely not have really excelled in ANY profession. Nevertheless, you are entitled to your opinion. If you would like to see "the reality" of optometry, please feel free to give me a call next time you make it to my neck of the woods in CA. I will even put you up in a hotel and take you out to dinner. There are plenty of us that do quite well by optometry and love what we do. Go drag down another profession..

Posner

 

[bournehall]

Actually I have done just fine in optometry. Would I choose this profession as someone starting out...no way. For someone practicing in a state where about all the therapeutics allowed is artificial tears you come on a tad strong. Thanks for reading and now go back to your mercantile practice. But, I would like to take you up on free room and board on a trip to California. BTW, no one is dragging down the profession but outside forces and the AOA.

You need to go elsewhere. You have not amounted to much professionally, and just as several other like-minded ODs, you blame the profession. I think that making new ODs and prospective students aware of the reality of the profession is one thing. Spinning it as negatively as you have and suggesting one would be a fool to choose optometry because you have fizzled out, is plain wrong. You sound like a grass is greener kind of guy, and it just isnt that way. Not every single MD or DDS makes $300K a year. There are plenty that make $80K-$120K. As I have said before, people such as yourself would likely not have really excelled in ANY profession. Nevertheless, you are entitled to your opinion. If you would like to see "the reality" of optometry, please feel free to give me a call next time you make it to my neck of the woods in CA. I will even put you up in a hotel and take you out to dinner. There are plenty of us that do quite well by optometry and love what we do. Go drag down another profession..

Posner

 

[still_confused]

the good news is, the bar is set so low that students such as myself expect to be eating ramen and sleeping on the streets while working at walmart 7 days a week. so when we do graduate, any job and lifestyle we obtain better then DOOMSDAY is going to be very refreshing.

i like this forum, reminds me of a quote i live by "aim low, avoid disappointment"

 

[posner]

Actually I have done just fine in optometry. Would I choose this profession as someone starting out...no way. For someone practicing in a state where about all the therapeutics allowed is artificial tears you come on a tad strong. Thanks for reading and now go back to your mercantile practice. But, I would like to take you up on free room and board on a trip to California. BTW, no one is dragging down the profession but outside forces and the AOA.

I must have missed the memo on Artificial tears only in CA. I have a robust Glaucoma practice and dry eye practice. Of the 23 patients on my schedule today only 10 of them are full exams that may have anything to do with glasses or contacts. The rest are retinal, dry eye, and glaucoma patients. While our dispensaries are quite busy with four ODs and an OMD sending patients down for glasses, they only comprise about 40% of our revenue. If you can scrape together the money to make it out to CA, drop me a line. I will even take it a step further and put you up at the Carlton which is quite a bit nicer than the Motel 6 that you are probably used to.

Posner

 

[still_confused]

BTW, no one is dragging down the profession but outside forces and the AOA.

and you arent dragging anyone down, you are just embarassing the profession. i have seen plenty of doctors and dentist that are unsatisfied with their profession but they dont blame the profession. AOA and OMDs are killing us but you picked it, you are to blame.

 

[Elfego Baca]

Anyone planning on going to optometry school should estimate how much debt they'll have after graduation, and then determine what the monthly payments will be for various interest rates (likely to be going up from the historical lows of the past decade, due to the huge deficits and negative trade balances that the US has been running up lately) and amortization periods. Also try to estimate what your gross and net salary might be, and determine for yourself if getting an OD makes financial sense. Personally, I have no idea how people who've maxed out their loans for 4 years manage to pay off such a crushing debt load and still live like a human being. Just make sure you know what you're getting into. I bet if you grabbed 100 first, second, or third-year optometry students and asked them what their monthly debt payments will be after graduation, you'd be lucky to find one that has a clue.

 

[Oogilily]

I've shadowed several commercial setting optometrists and most of them seem to be very happy with the setup that they have. I think it is all about what you want out of your lifestyle, your practice and your attitude. I've met some very unhappy private practice owners too. Same old argument....Does anyone feel like we are going in circles?

 

[hokulele]

It's terribly sad to me that unhappy OD's are so quick to put down their very own profession, as well as resort to other professions because they are not making their ideal salaries. However, I support them in seeking another profession. In fact, PLEASE CHANGE NOW, for the respect of your patients. What concerns me is that the current patients are unknowingly visiting with an optometrist who is so bitter.


I will be a first year student at SCCO this fall, and I am excited about my future! I know that upon graduation I will struggle with paying off loans, among other hardships that may come my way, and it is something I accept in my pursuit of a career in optometry, a field that I admire and love.

Maybe I'm naive to think this? but I have learned that hardship and risk-taking are inevitable in anything you wish to accomplish in this world, and the key to surviving it all is optimism & a passion for what it is you wish to do, as well as the ability to adapt and create new solutions. Of course, if you are lacking any of these traits, you will just endure more hardship and unhappiness.

To the negative and unhappy optometrists, please stop blaming others for your failures, the only one at fault is YOURSELF. I hope you are able to find happiness elsewhere.


To the optometrists who ARE passionate about optometry, especially those who are willing to offer so much advice, THANK YOU, I admire you all

 

[KHE]

Maybe I'm naive to think this? but I have learned that hardship and risk-taking are inevitable in anything you wish to accomplish in this world, and the key to surviving it all is optimism & a passion for what it is you wish to do, as well as the ability to adapt and create new solutions. Of course, if you are lacking any of these traits, you will just endure more hardship and unhappiness.

To the negative and unhappy optometrists, please stop blaming others for your failures, the only one at fault is YOURSELF. I hope you are able to find happiness elsewhere.


To the optometrists who ARE passionate about optometry, especially those who are willing to offer so much advice, THANK YOU, I admire you all

See...I think you are making the same mistake that so many who have come before you have made and so many who will come after you will make the same mistake as well:

Please forgive me if I'm wrong, but your posting indicates that you feel that as long as you "work hard" and have "passion" and "optimism" that everything will work out great.

None of those things are enough. Your fate in optometry is going to be determined largely by factors far beyond your control to change. As such, it is critical that you identify those factors and select practice modes and locations that mitigate those things.

Over the years, I have certainly contributed my share of negativity to this and other forums. And while I stand by every word I have ever said, I would also point out that I have never once said that you can't make a good and satisfying living in this field.

After I took some time off from the field, I now own a wonderful private practice that makes me great money and I can practice to the fullest extent that my license allows. However, "passion" and "optimism" and "hard work" are not what got me here. Those things help, but again they aren't close to enough.

I don't know how many more times I can say this......

 

[Ryan_eyeball]

See...I think you are making the same mistake that so many who have come before you have made and so many who will come after you will make the same mistake as well:

Please forgive me if I'm wrong, but your posting indicates that you feel that as long as you "work hard" and have "passion" and "optimism" that everything will work out great.

None of those things are enough. Your fate in optometry is going to be determined largely by factors far beyond your control to change. As such, it is critical that you identify those factors and select practice modes and locations that mitigate those things.

Over the years, I have certainly contributed my share of negativity to this and other forums. And while I stand by every word I have ever said, I would also point out that I have never once said that you can't make a good and satisfying living in this field.



So many posters are quick to identify negativity, but so many are pre-optometry or optometry students. You haven't even been in the real trenches yet. I have been negative about various issues, but that doesn't mean I don't love optometry. Practicing in an area which I grew up in I feel very fortunate about. We do not have the $29 eye exams to worry about, or buy two pair and get an eye exam free.

I do have a nice income but its from having good exam fees, and billing medical for conditions (dry eyes, photos, gonio-yes use it, plugs, fields) like KHE has beat the horse eternal death before.

The only problem i dislike a lot of times is having empty slots in the exam book because I don't like to sit around. Its hard to have a full appointment book like posner has, its not that common.

Good luck!!

 

[still_confused]

However, "passion" and "optimism" and "hard work" are not what got me here. Those things help, but again they aren't close to enough.

while they dont help, but hopefully you agree that they are still required for the sake of our profession?

 

[posner]

See...I think you are making the same mistake that so many who have come before you have made and so many who will come after you will make the same mistake as well:

Please forgive me if I'm wrong, but your posting indicates that you feel that as long as you "work hard" and have "passion" and "optimism" that everything will work out great.

None of those things are enough. Your fate in optometry is going to be determined largely by factors far beyond your control to change. As such, it is critical that you identify those factors and select practice modes and locations that mitigate those things.

Over the years, I have certainly contributed my share of negativity to this and other forums. And while I stand by every word I have ever said, I would also point out that I have never once said that you can't make a good and satisfying living in this field.



So many posters are quick to identify negativity, but so many are pre-optometry or optometry students. You haven't even been in the real trenches yet. I have been negative about various issues, but that doesn't mean I don't love optometry. Practicing in an area which I grew up in I feel very fortunate about. We do not have the $29 eye exams to worry about, or buy two pair and get an eye exam free.

I do have a nice income but its from having good exam fees, and billing medical for conditions (dry eyes, photos, gonio-yes use it, plugs, fields) like KHE has beat the horse eternal death before.

The only problem i dislike a lot of times is having empty slots in the exam book because I don't like to sit around. Its hard to have a full appointment book like posner has, its not that common.

Good luck!!

I took a different approach. I evaluated what I felt was the best possible business environment in the major geographic area I wanted to live in, and found a very successful practice to buy into. I wasnt stuck on living in a particular town. The area I chose happened to be in the top 10 most desirable areas in the US(U.S. News and World Report 2006). It was small enough to be removed from the big city, yet county-wide it was large enough to have a robust economy.

As far as my full schedule goes, it wasnt always that way. Yes I did start with a small patient load by virtue of the well established practice I purchased into, but it was hardly what it is today. Every patient is an opportunity to educate and to address a patients concerns(there are usually many). If you want to be lazy and peddle glasses all day and elect only to investigate the obvious pathologies(that will likely be referred out of your office), it can be a dull existence. Listen to patients and dont be afraid to try new things; think beyond the glasses/contacts. It takes constant work to keep your slots full. Whenever I slack off(i.e. lately since we have switched our office computer system in both offices to EMR) I can see a measureable impact in parts of my schedule.

Posner

 

[hokulele]

KHE, I know I didn't make it clear, I'm sorry I'm not great with my words, I am not trying to say that if I'm positive, then everything will work out great, that definitely would be naive

I know I have yet to experience everything myself but I do know that challenges are inevitable, but I still will remain positive and yes I will work hard... to figure out HOW to handle those situations intelligently... for example, by following the advice you suggested: wisely selecting practice modes, and locations, etc.

It's just unfortunate that unhappy optometrists who think optometry is not worth it, are usually so quick to place blame on other people for their failures, instead of taking initiative and really analyzing their situations and figuring out what they may be doing wrong, and what they CAN do to change things.

KHE, you have shown through many of your threads that there ARE solutions to a lot of the challenges in this field, so that is why I will be positive for my future in optometry. Thanks for your insight!

 

[yyz]

Went to NEWENCO, and graduated with 150K in debt (Boston is quite expensive). I live paycheck to paycheck and have to rely on my wife's teacher salary to help pay the bills. Work commercial because it pays the best but still not enough. Wish I knew what I know now. I should have gone into pharmacy or dentistry. Have several friends that are pharmacists and they make 6 figures and they at least get every other weekend off. Not like me working every Saturday for the rest of my life. Do you see dentists or MDs working Saturdays or Sundays? I think not.

 

[still_confused]

optometry was your backup, of course you are miserable

 

[Doctor M]

Went to NEWENCO, graduated 2000 with 150K in debt (Boston is quite expensive). I live paycheck to paycheck and have to rely on my wife's teacher salary to help pay the bills. Work commercial because it pays the best but still not enough. Wish I knew what I knew what I know now. I should have stuck with my original choice of pharmacy. Have several friends that are pharmacists and they make 6 figures and they at least get every other weekend off. Not like me working every Saturday for the rest of my life.

Can someone enlighten me as to why optometry school is sooo dammmnnn expensive 150k in school loans???? Is this for 4 years of optometry school? I assume these are private schools??? I have much respect for optometrists but school tuition seems a bit steep.

 

[yyz]

How many other doctors work weekends as much as O.D.'s do? Good luck trying to have a normal life when you start having kids and you are working every weekend. Like I said I don't have a trust fund and I didn't marry rich so I have to do what I can to pay for my school debt, mortgage, etc. With student loans of students approaching 200K these days the cost to benefit of optometry is no longer worth it.

 

[Doctor M]

How many other doctors work weekends as much as O.D.'s do? Good luck trying to have a normal life when you start having kids and you are working every weekend. Like I said I don't have a trust fund and I didn't marry rich so I have to do what I can to pay for my school debt, mortgage, etc. With student loans of students approaching 200K these days the cost to benefit of optometry is no longer worth it.

When I graduated Rx school in 2004, i had $87000 in school debt but my income started at 91k for 40 hours. If you end optometry school with 200k and a salary of 80k, something does not seem right. again, why is optometry school so expensive? It almost doesn't seem worth it but I cant really judge since im not in any of yours' situation.

 

[yyz]

30K tuition/yr
20K living expenses/yr

= 200K

 

[Doctor M]

30K tuition/yr
20K living expenses/yr

= 200K

I sympathize...