Optometry is DEAD!

[Jason K]

Chill the f out it was a joke. KHE is regarded as an intelligent poster here and there's an SDN article about him.

Shnurek, nobody questioned anyone's intelligence so let's..... SIMMA DOWN NOW!

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/15056/#comment-7427322

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[JAZZEYE]

I never claimed to have stumbled on anything. I'm not boarding my escape pod, rubbing my hands together, ready to jettison myself from the crippled spacecraft that is optometry. I'm working on it. But, you would have a valid point if I had already figured things out. Then, I'd agree, it would be hypocritical of me not to share, if not pretty selfish.

Okay Captain Queeg...

"Ahh, but the strawberries that's... that's where I had them.
They laughed at me and made jokes but I proved it beyond the shadow of a doubt and with... geometric logic"

Does all that spacecraft, mega douche, unshun reshun and crack hoe stuff really go around in your head ?
maybe you just need some medication...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFU-7SiPdSo&feature=related

before you...

 

[KHE]

I've brought the point up several times, but no one has yet to answer my question about what's going to happen to all the new OD hopefuls who come out and can't find a miracle practice to buy for another 400-600K? Your platform seems to be that ODs should get out, form a business plan (which is required for any substantial business loan), borrow a few more hundred K, and make a go of it.

Jason,

I freely admit that there will be a number of graduating ODs who will end up on the scrap heap of Walmart.

But I would contend that that is true in each and every profession out there. There are MIT graduates on the scrap heap of engineering. There are Harvard Law school graduates on the scrap heap of the legal profession. There are Johns Hopkins physicians on the scrap heap of medicine. There are people who graduated from Juliard who are not dancing on Broadway but are dancing on a pole somewhere.

Now you are surely going to say that in optometry it's a much higher percentage than say MIT engineers and you may be right.

What I"m saying is the same as Tippytoe. Not everyone will make it. But anyone CAN make it.

But if all of your man-fans were to enter optometry school with that as a goal,

Oh trust me.....I got a whole lotta lady fans as well.

the numbers virtually guarantee that there will not be enough to go around. The rest, end up at WalFart. So, what happens when all the good private practices are gone, but we still have people pouring into the profession at ever-increasing numbers?

They need to start their own. If every good private practice is gone, that means that there is an undersupply of good private practices.

Even with your plan running at 100% success rate (every solid practice is bought up by a new OD hopeful), there will be large numbers of doomed ODs heading for the mills. What do you tell them?

The same thing I would tell the graduates at Harvard Law. Some of you will not make it. Don't be one of those people.

Business plans are great, but success depends on a solid foundation for whatever it is that you're planning. If there's no solid foundation to the field, the risk is much higher. At some point, it becomes too high, and that point is different for everyone. I'd much rather take my 350K total investment and put it into something with better odds of paying out. (I'm going to preemptively request that I don't get 47 comments about what I think is a better investment than the great optometry. That question been asked and answered several times.)

It would be nice if you could suggest something other than dentistry.

 

[Jason K]

Okay Captain Queeg...

"Ahh, but the strawberries that's... that's where I had them.
They laughed at me and made jokes but I proved it beyond the shadow of a doubt and with... geometric logic"

Does all that spacecraft, unshun reshun and crack hoe stuff really go around in your head ?
maybe you just need some medication...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFU-7SiPdSo&feature=related

before you...

FUKITOL OTC? SEs include: homelessness, bankruptcy, dry mouth, the tendency to say stupid things (have you taken it?), and priopism? No thanks, chief, I'm good.

As far as the spacecraft stuff.....yes, that went on in my head....as an analogy.

Unshun, reshun? Sorry, I just happened to have watched an episode of the office.....forgive me.

And crack hoes? I actually did live next to one for a year so, no, that definitely did not go on in my head, it went on in reality. The allusion was appropriate for the situation if you'd actually read it. What's your point?

 

[Jason K]

Jason,

I freely admit that there will be a number of graduating ODs who will end up on the scrap heap of Walmart.

But I would contend that that is true in each and every profession out there. There are MIT graduates on the scrap heap of engineering. There are Harvard Law school graduates on the scrap heap of the legal profession. There are Johns Hopkins physicians on the scrap heap of medicine. There are people who graduated from Juliard who are not dancing on Broadway but are dancing on a pole somewhere.

Now you are surely going to say that in optometry it's a much higher percentage than say MIT engineers and you may be right.

You're right, that's exactly what I'd say.

What I"m saying is the same as Tippytoe. Not everyone will make it. But anyone CAN make it.

I've never disagreed with you on this point. It's the percentages that turn me off. I'm not looking at the situation through my own set of eyes, I'm looking at it as a 3rd party => a huge percentage of new OD grads will regret their decision to enter optometry. No matter how you spin it, it's indicative of a problem.

The same thing I would tell the graduates at Harvard Law. Some of you will not make it. Don't be one of those people.

Very easy to tell people that when you've already gotten where you need to go and they want to follow. You're may have an uprising in a few years when your sports fans enter the real world and realize it's not as easy as you're making it sound - be careful!

It would be nice if you could suggest something other than dentistry.

Petroleum engineering. They're doing just fine with a B.S., right out of undergrad. I have a nephew who makes more than I do and he's 24 years old. I don't think it's my bag, but some people would like it. So, there's another one.

 

[JAZZEYE]

What's your point?

my point ? ... you've already determined yours is the only one that matters ...just like Captain Queeg

all I'm sayin is...

"you bought the ticket, take the ride...and if occasionally it gets a little heavier than what you had in mind,
well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion." ...your good, chief.

I've been on and off this forum for years...
I'm not one his "marching followers" but just for the record KHE has never said anything that makes it sound easy..thats for sure.
____________________________________________________________________________________________

 

[yushin]

Petroleum engineering. They're doing just fine with a B.S., right out of undergrad. I have a nephew who makes more than I do and he's 24 years old. I don't think it's my bag, but some people would like it. So, there's another one.

Jason,

How long do you think that that will last? Isn't it possible that petroleum engineering would not be so good a field to get into few years later?

Anyhow, I think that you are very smart and also a very good writer. Surely if you are that miserable, you should be able to get into another field that would make you happier. I think that the Daily Show is looking for a writer.

I agree and understand your frustration, but I fail to understand your missionary zeal to make people accept your point of view. Can't you just let people go to hell/ruin their lives/go into a worthless profession if that's what they want? Why would you care so much unless you are a christian fundie?

 

[KHE]

I've never disagreed with you on this point. It's the percentages that turn me off. I'm not looking at the situation through my own set of eyes, I'm looking at it as a 3rd party => a huge percentage of new OD grads will regret their decision to enter optometry. No matter how you spin it, it's indicative of a problem.

In your mind, what is that "huge percentage?"

I think this problem is more indicative of the types of people who schools admit rather than an indictment of the problem itself. Not that there's not a problem but the schools sure aren't admitting people who can take a stand against it.

Very easy to tell people that when you've already gotten where you need to go and they want to follow. You're may have an uprising in a few years when your sports fans enter the real world and realize it's not as easy as you're making it sound - be careful!

When have I ever made it sound easy? I'll tell you.....never. I've never said it was easy. If there's one person who knows how NOT easy it is, it's me. What I've said many times is that if I can do it, just some average schlub who had as much debt coming out of school as any graduate today, then anyone can.

Petroleum engineering. They're doing just fine with a B.S., right out of undergrad. I have a nephew who makes more than I do and he's 24 years old. I don't think it's my bag, but some people would like it. So, there's another one.

Well, that's the hot field now. Just as pharmacy was 5 years ago. Just as web page designer was 10 years ago. Just as computer programmer was 20 years ago.

What's it going to be 5 years from now?

 

[Jason K]

I agree and understand your frustration, but I fail to understand your missionary zeal to make people accept your point of view. Can't you just let people go to hell/ruin their lives/go into a worthless profession if that's what they want? Why would you care so much unless you are a christian fundie?

I think what's most important to consider is that there are different types of people who apply to OD programs, but on the whole, there are trends. We're not a gung-ho, super-entrepreneurial group willing to accept large amounts of risk. Those types of people don't typically pursue or finish an optometry degree or any degree, for that matter. They are out laying their savings on the line to start a website, a product line, a sporting goods company, etc, and quite often they're successful because their personality drives them in that direction. Those people are usually not applying to optometry school. The people in optometry school, dental, medical, etc, are going to tend to be people who want to be their own boss and enjoy being an entrepreneur, see patients, and often to have their own practice, but without the full risk of someone who decides to start their own company without any credentials to separate them from the next Joe. The very act of choosing a professional degree is, to some extent, an expression of risk aversion. It's historically been considered a "safer" way to start your own business because it separates you from the average guy who can't do whatever it is that you do. Optometry has lost that safety factor and people considering the profession need to understand that. If they choose to forge ahead anyway with full knowledge of the circumstances, they're probably much more likely to succeed since their personality is likely a lot more pure entrepreneurial than the guy (like me) who says, "I don't know if the risk is worth it any more." I don't like my odds. I'd rather do X and minimize the risk involved in my $350K output.”

I would argue that my level of risk acceptance is probably closer to the average OD than KHE or anyone else that is willing to bite off another 500K, 600K or 800K on top of a couple of hundred thousand in student loans. Most ODs would have a hard time with that, especially new ones. My whole point is, for those people who don't see themselves jumping into even more extreme debt level soon out of optometry school, a serious consideration of the profession is in order. If you don’t see yourself doing that, then get ready for Walmart, America’s Best, Pearle Vision, or Sam’s.

Maybe the problem, as KHE alluded to, is in fact the types of people being admitted to optometry school. We're not risky enough. Maybe admissions committees should be thinking ahead saying "We need to really slant our acceptances towards people who are going to be willing to accept high risk, buy a practice, and have a shot at succeeding." The numbers of successful applicants would probably be lower and the percent that achieve their goal would certainly be higher. I don't think anyone would have a problem with that. Unfortunately, there is no place in optometry with less concern for the future of the profession than academics, except possibly for the AOA. If someone on an admission committee had told me "Hey dude, you probably would have been a great match for optometry 25 years ago, but today, you need a little more Donald Trump in you..." I would have been fine with that.

I'm really not on here to make anyone accept my point of view. I'm on here to present a different side of the story. As I've said in earlier posts, if someone comes on here, reads through the negative optometry threads like this one, and then decides an OD is for them, then all the best to them.
In essence, what I'm saying is, there's no right or wrong answer here. I've never claimed that there was. For me, I think it's a terrible investment of time and money. Many other ODs agree with me on that. For someone who figures out how to make it work for them, whether it's by buying an expensive, already successful practice, or with a cushy VA job that they love, or whatever, then the investment was solid. I'm only here to illuminate the fact that all is not rosy in optometry as the prevailing biased information out there would suggest. Too many people are getting out of school saying "What the hell is this crap, I worked this hard and spent this much money for this?"

 

[thiaeyemd]

Great post Jason K.. To quote one of my buddies when a bunch of us were conjecturing and bemoaning decreased medicare and insurance remibursements.."Well, what would you do if the senate, house and white house said "F.. u doctors...from now on you are going make 50K a year..we don't care how long you trained or what loans you have...what are you doing to do? Quit? Go to law school? Change careers? Chances are you would complain and moan but still keep practicing...and they know that "

I hate to say it but he is probably right...

What will probably happen and what makes the most sense for America financially to pay the health care costs is train a ton of MDs, ODs, Dentists etc..Once they are trained they then cut their reimbursement tremendously. A majority of people will still practice and not quit because we are conservative by nature. How many doctors you know change career in their 40s? Over time fewer people will apply to those schools but by that time the baby boomers will be gone and the number of docs wont be needed anyway. If I was the accountant for the US, had to figure out how to pay this stuff and was completely ruthless that's what I would do. If you think the average american cares that we trained for 4-12 years depending on the degree and specialty and have 200K in loans, your kidding yourself. If the US can get away with paying all ODs, MDs, DO, DDS, NP $10/hour they would. I mean why wouldnt they?

 

[Jason K]

In your mind, what is that "huge percentage?"

I've been casually polling new grads for the last couple of years about where they end up after graduation. I only started keeping track recently, but about 2/3 of them end up in some sort of "-Mart" or equivalent and many of them are shocked at their situation. Granted, that's only for 3 programs so maybe it's different for other schools, but I doubt it. Those who are looking for employment after residency training aren't fairing much better, although my sample size is admittedly smaller. I don't blame anyone, but myself for my unhappiness with my chosen profession. If I'd looked hard enough, I would have seen the writing on the wall.

I think this problem is more indicative of the types of people who schools admit rather than an indictment of the problem itself. Not that there's not a problem but the schools sure aren't admitting people who can take a stand against it.

I don't disagree with you here.

When have I ever made it sound easy? I'll tell you.....never. I've never said it was easy. If there's one person who knows how NOT easy it is, it's me. What I've said many times is that if I can do it, just some average schlub who had as much debt coming out of school as any graduate today, then anyone can.

You may not have ever stated that's it's easy street all the way, but statements like this certainly imply it.

If there are practices for sale, you're crazy to not buy one.

I disagree with you that anyone can do it. Not anyone can do it. Just like not anyone can be an air traffic controller. There are certain personality traits and motivations that dictate whether or not a person "can do it." As I stated in my response to Yushin, the average optometry applicant/student/recent grad is not a highly-driven entrepreneurial type. They're somewhere on the spectrum, but they're not at the Donald Trump, Richard Branson level. Maybe if they were, optometry would turn itself around.

Well, that's the hot field now. Just as pharmacy was 5 years ago. Just as web page designer was 10 years ago. Just as computer programmer was 20 years ago.

What's it going to be 5 years from now?

Do you really think Exon, Shell, BP, etc are going to let their precious commodity go to waste? Petroleum engineers will be doing just fine for a long time to come. I'll check back in 5 years to make sure, though.

 

[Jason K]

Great post Jason K.. To quote one of my buddies when a bunch of us were conjecturing and bemoaning decreased medicare and insurance remibursements.."Well, what would you do if the senate, house and white house said "F.. u doctors...from now on you are going make 50K a year..we don't care how long you trained or what loans you have...what are you doing to do? Quit? Go to law school? Change careers? Chances are you would complain and moan but still keep practicing...and they know that "

I hate to say it but he is probably right...

What will probably happen and what makes the most sense for America financially to pay the health care costs is train a ton of MDs, ODs, Dentists etc..Once they are trained they then cut their reimbursement tremendously. A majority of people will still practice and not quit because we are conservative by nature. How many doctors you know change career in their 40s? Over time fewer people will apply to those schools but by that time the baby boomers will be gone and the number of docs wont be needed anyway. If I was the accountant for the US, had to figure out how to pay this stuff and was completely ruthless that's what I would do. If you think the average american cares that we trained for 4-12 years depending on the degree and specialty and have 200K in loans, your kidding yourself. If the US can get away with paying all ODs, MDs, DO, DDS, NP $10/hour they would. I mean why wouldnt they?

No arguments here. At some point the tide will have to shift. If it gets bad enough and people start to go elsewhere instead of getting MDs, ODs, JDs, etc, then at some point in the future, there will be a need for those professionals again and the incentives might return. If that day ever comes, it will be long after I'm wearing diapers again, though.

 

[Jason K]

my point ? ... you've already determined yours is the only one that matters ...just like Captain Queeg

Really? Can you please point out, in any post of mine, on any thread, where it was that I claimed that my point was the only one that matters......like your sub captain? I've said too many times to count, that my opinion is just that, my opinion. Others may disagree with me and that's fine, but it's my view, just like your opinion is yours. Everyone on here is arguing their point of view - that's the point of this thread. I'm not sure how you can miss that. Jeez, I think I've had to type that response about 4 times.

 

[JAZZEYE]

I think what's most important to consider is that there are different types of people who apply to OD programs, but on the whole, there are trends. We're not a gung-ho, super-entrepreneurial group willing to accept large amounts of risk. Those types of people don't typically pursue or finish an optometry degree or any degree, for that matter. They are out laying their savings on the line to start a website, a product line, a sporting goods company, etc, and quite often they're successful because their personality drives them in that direction. Those people are usually not applying to optometry school. The people in optometry school, dental, medical, etc, are going to tend to be people who want to be their own boss and enjoy being an entrepreneur, see patients, and often to have their own practice, but without the full risk of someone who decides to start their own company without any credentials to separate them from the next Joe. The very act of choosing a professional degree is, to some extent, an expression of risk aversion. It's historically been considered a "safer" way to start your own business because it separates you from the average guy who can't do whatever it is that you do. Optometry has lost that safety factor and people considering the profession need to understand that. If they choose to forge ahead anyway with full knowledge of the circumstances, they're probably much more likely to succeed since their personality is likely a lot more pure entrepreneurial than the guy (like me) who says, "I don't know if the risk is worth it any more." I don't like my odds. I'd rather do X and minimize the risk involved in my $350K output."

I would argue that my level of risk acceptance is probably closer to the average OD than KHE or anyone else that is willing to bite off another 500K, 600K or 800K on top of a couple of hundred thousand in student loans. Most ODs would have a hard time with that, especially new ones. My whole point is, for those people who don't see themselves jumping into even more extreme debt level soon out of optometry school, a serious consideration of the profession is in order. If you don't see yourself doing that, then get ready for Walmart, America's Best, Pearle Vision, or Sam's.

Maybe the problem, as KHE alluded to, is in fact the types of people being admitted to optometry school. We're not risky enough. Maybe admissions committees should be thinking ahead saying "We need to really slant our acceptances towards people who are going to be willing to accept high risk, buy a practice, and have a shot at succeeding." The numbers of successful applicants would probably be lower and the percent that achieve their goal would certainly be higher. I don't think anyone would have a problem with that. Unfortunately, there is no place in optometry with less concern for the future of the profession than academics, except possibly for the AOA. If someone on an admission committee had told me "Hey dude, you probably would have been a great match for optometry 25 years ago, but today, you need a little more Donald Trump in you..." I would have been fine with that.

I'm really not on here to make anyone accept my point of view. I'm on here to present a different side of the story. As I've said in earlier posts, if someone comes on here, reads through the negative optometry threads like this one, and then decides an OD is for them, then all the best to them.
In essence, what I'm saying is, there's no right or wrong answer here. I've never claimed that there was. For me, I think it's a terrible investment of time and money. Many other ODs agree with me on that. For someone who figures out how to make it work for them, whether it's by buying an expensive, already successful practice, or with a cushy VA job that they love, or whatever, then the investment was solid. I'm only here to illuminate the fact that all is not rosy in optometry as the prevailing biased information out there would suggest. Too many people are getting out of school saying "What the hell is this crap, I worked this hard and spent this much money for this?"

Good post !

Is it the huge student loan debt that makes it too much a risk and no time for learning curves to become more entrepreneurial, something that doesn't come natural.
Or just lack of entrepreneurial spirit in Optometrist.

Curious what would you say if you had no student loan debt...
Do you Jason, enjoy being an Optometrist aside from the cost of an OD and return factor ?

With no debt and freedom to choose,
would you get out ?

or choose to take a shot and invest in private practice ?

or go commercial optometry ?
with zero upfront investment,
no prestige or equity..
but low stress and earnings in the low 100's give or take.

Without the 200k + debt would be you happy with any situation in Optometry ?

 

[JAZZEYE]

Really? Can you please point out, in any post of mine, on any thread, where it was that I claimed that my point was the only one that matters......like your sub captain? I've said too many times to count, that my opinion is just that, my opinion. Others may disagree with me and that's fine, but it's my view, just like your opinion is yours. Everyone on here is arguing their point of view - that's the point of this thread. I'm not sure how you can miss that. Jeez, I think I've had to type that response about 4 times.

Sorry... but you are condescending,
it seems you like to stir it up and you do.
You invoke sarcasm, humor, and some protagonism.

 

[Jason K]

Okay Captain Queeg...

"Ahh, but the strawberries that's... that's where I had them.
They laughed at me and made jokes but I proved it beyond the shadow of a doubt and with... geometric logic"

Does all that spacecraft, mega douche, unshun reshun and crack hoe stuff really go around in your head ?
maybe you just need some medication...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFU-7SiPdSo&feature=related

before you...

I'm condescending?

I've said before, I only use sarcasm and satire to answer threads which are equally aggressive and/or insulting to me. If everyone else is allowed to take punches, so am I. If I've ever been condescending to anyone, it was handed to me first. I'd challenge you to prove otherwise.

 

[JAZZEYE]

I'm condescending?

I've said before, I only use sarcasm and satire to answer threads which are equally aggressive and/or insulting to me. If everyone else is allowed to take punches, so am I. If I've ever been condescending to anyone, it was handed to me first. I'd challenge you to prove otherwise.

On another thread I used one word jokingly the word "hopefully" after you gave a rather long post ended with "hopefully I'm done"...I don't think it was aggressive/insulting or a punch thrown...you went right into douche, followed by mega douche, complete douche..an uncalled for heavey handed response for a small bit of sarcasm.

You have often implied anyone who is just a student has no business questioning a practising OD because they must be clueless...condescending methinks....whatever, I got no real beef with you...you are sometimes funny, and even thought provoking...just take a little getting use to.

Jazzeye, you're a wizard of comedic use of simple phrases. No really, I didn't see that coming. You should write for Conan or something - I'm impressed.

Also, you're a douche.

What about my questions a couple posts back ...what if you had no student loan debt right now?

 

[Shnurek]

This thread is pointless now can we close? Or everyone just SHUT THE F UP?

 

[Jason K]

On another thread I used one word jokingly the word "hopefully" after you gave a rather long post ended with "hopefully I'm done"...I don't think it was aggressive/insulting or a punch thrown...you went right into douche, followed by mega douche, complete douche..an uncalled for heavey handed response for a small bit of sarcasm.

Dude, c'mon now, weren't you the one asking me how I could be so "thin skinned" on my thread? You can't seriously tell me you interpreted that post as "heavy-handed?" I was being as sarcastic as I've ever been in any post. Douche, mega douche, complete douche?.... did you honestly think I was writing that with the intent of you taking it seriously? Or when I called you a "wizard of comedic genius"....and then followed with ..."also, you're a douche?" It was completely in a humorous tone. If it was interpreted as aggression, that wasn't my intent. You have got to have known I was joking. If not, then I offer you my most sincere apology from the "optometry blows" side of the aisle.

So here's what needs to happen....... let's hug it out.....no seriously, just....com'ere dude....you're gettin' a big, giant, burley bro-hug whether you like it or not........bring it in for the real thing.....it's ok, man, I'm married - there's nothing wrong with two dudes.....ok, ok fine.....I'll just go hug netmag then.

You have often implied anyone who is just a student has no business questioning a practising OD because they must be clueless...condescending methinks....whatever....

I've never said that. In fact, in one post, I specifically stated that pre-optometry and OD students are arguably more important on here than ODs are - it's a student forum. If a student or pre-op were to come on here and question something I wrote in a constructive manner, I'd respond accordingly. I've never lit into anyone who didn't ask for it. I can recall one specific fledgling who called me a "whiny bitch" at one point. Sorry, but when the "whiny bitch" card hits the table, I'm probably going to add a little extra spice to my response. I've been called a troll by one hussey. I've been told to stop being a "cry baby," to "stop whining," "stop complaining," etc. etc. I've also been handed "fatherly optometry advice" from people were probably born in the 90s and know less about the profession than many of my patients. When that happens, especially if the advice is comically ridiculous, I'm probably not going to be able to resist taking a little liberty with my comments. There are plenty of posters on here who take jabs, usually in a light manner. It's part of this media format where everyone sits behind their computer, totally anonymous.

What about my questions a couple posts back ...what if you had no student loan debt right now?

From an earlier post....in response to Yushin.

If I paid 4K/yr for my OD, I would not be on this forum highlighting the problems with optometry - I can promise you that. I'd be doing something else since I could afford to leave the profession. At the very least, if I decided to stay in optometry, I'd be a lot more content. Even if my income never topped 75K, I'd probably be reasonably happy since student loan debt would not enter the equation. Just think, without interest, you could have gone to optometry school about 13 times before you would pay what I paid. With interest accounted for, you'd be looking at about 25x! I think that comparison says it all.

 

[Jason K]

This thread is pointless now can we close? Or everyone just SHUT THE F UP?

I think we should ask imemily, she's in charge.


.......alright, alright, fine! That was uncalled for, I know.

Plus, I'm shunning her, so someone else would have to ask her anyway.



.....Wow, you're right, Shnurek. I think it's time to close.

 

[yushin]

If I paid 4K/yr for my OD, I would not be on this forum highlighting the problems with optometry - I can promise you that. I'd be doing something else since I could afford to leave the profession. At the very least, if I decided to stay in optometry, I'd be a lot more content. Even if my income never topped 75K, I'd probably be reasonably happy since student loan debt would not enter the equation. Just think, without interest, you could have gone to optometry school about 13 times before you would pay what I paid. With interest accounted for, you'd be looking at about 25x! I think that comparison says it all.

Jason,

Have you thought about teaching high school? KHE did this for few years, and as I remember the salary was pretty good (b/t 70 and 80k with full benefits) because of the doctorate degree. Perhaps, KHE can correct me if I'm wrong.

You can even work full-time as an O.D during the summer and part-time during school to generate more income so that the debt can be paid off much quicker.

Just a thought since you seem very unhappy and want to get out of optometry.

 

[Jason K]

Jason,

Have you thought about teaching high school? KHE did this for few years, and as I remember the salary was pretty good (b/t 70 and 80k with full benefits) because of the doctorate degree. Perhaps, KHE can correct me if I'm wrong.

You can even work full-time as an O.D during the summer and part-time during school to generate more income so that the debt can be paid off much quicker.

Just a thought since you seem very unhappy and want to get out of optometry.

I actually have though of that. I think there are even some loan forgiveness programs in place for ODs willing to do the "Dangerous Minds" thing and teach in inner city HS. But in my location, HS teachers don't make that much. I have an aunt that teaches kindergarten in CT and makes in the mid 80s since she's been doing it for 20+yrs. CT has the highest teachers salaries in the US, as far as I know. In any event, I actually don't hate optometry as far as what it entails. I don't mind doing routine exams and CLs with an occasional more complex patient. Even in a commercial setting, it would be far more tolerable if the expense for the credentials were not so high. As I said before, if I paid a tiny fraction of what I did for my OD, I'd have a lot less to complain about. I'll either find somewhere within optometry to settle in or I'll find something outside of optometry. Which that will be, I don't know yet.

 

[imemily]

The entire premise of this thread lacked any factual information to begin with. As such, it is misguiding and should be locked or closed before another troll revives it.

It is evident by this thread that Optometry is not dead or dying. Posters who think otherwise are misinformed, disgruntled or stupid, or a combination of said terms.

 

[Tippytoe]

The entire premise of this thread lacked any factual information to begin with. As such, it is misguiding and should be locked or closed before another troll revives it.

It is evident by this thread that Optometry is not dead or dying. Posters who think otherwise are misinformed, disgruntled or stupid, or a combination of said terms.

Still waiting Emily. Tick-tock, tick-tock.

 

[JAZZEYE]

The entire premise of this thread lacked any factual information to begin with. As such, it is misguiding and should be locked or closed before another troll revives it.

It is evident by this thread that Optometry is not dead or dying. Posters who think otherwise are misinformed, disgruntled or stupid, or a combination of said terms.

ehhh whats the difference...its an open forum, and its not like were responsible for saving the US credit rating...those guys present less factual information than here...

This thread has been feisty but entertaining and you have to admit there has been some food for thought presented.

 

[Jason K]

I've been claiming for some time now that imemily's own words are demonstrative of her lack of knowledge of the profession, who could have known she actually agrees with me?

From: Positives of The Optometry Profession: An Honest Look 7/13/11

The Optometry profession and optometry business are two separate things. Of course I would know little about the profession, since I am not a student of the profession, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't know how a optometry practice makes profits etc etc. Its pretty much common sense, once you look at what you're doing, what you aren't doing, and what others are doing.

I wouldn't hold your breath on those facts you're asking for, Tippytoe, it might be a while.

(shunning status maintained)

 

[imemily]

ehhh whats the difference...its an open forum, and its not like were responsible for saving the US credit rating...those guys present less factual information than here...

This thread has been feisty but entertaining and you have to admit there has been some food for thought presented.

Well, I agree with that notion to a certain extent, most of the information provided here lacks any evidence and/or is mostly an overblown opinion of disgruntled Od's.

 

[JAZZEYE]

Well, I agree with that notion to a certain extent, most of the information provided here lacks any evidence and/or is mostly an overblown opinion of disgruntled Od's.

I don't get really angry about all the negativity anymore...I learned to take it with a grain of salt...Tippy Toe mentioned how great it is that students have the internet as an information resource..true to an extent but it also comes with alot of misinformation... so use what you can, leave the rest..the percentage of practising OD's that post on this forum is probably less then 1%

The issues about the obstacles of high student loan debt and over saturation are valid and make the logic of pursing an OD questionable as an investment...compared to some other investments...but you do what you like right !

Optometry is not Dead or dying a slow painful death...its changing, but so is everything...Optometry has a complex set of components that make the future unpredictable...all that anyone can do is point to certain indicators ( usually from their own perspective ) and draw conclusions...which everyone is entitled to do...even students !

 

[imemily]

The student loan debt isn't really all that high, if you compare it to other professions. (Taken from Western University)

Optometrist = 30k/yr
Dentist= 58k/yr
Doctor = 48k/yr
Pharmacists= 44k/yr
Veterinary = 44k/yr
Physical Therapist = 34k/yr

Just by itself, Optometry IS expensive, but when you compare it to other professions, it is much more manageable. The living expenses might drive up the degree to 200k or whatever the average is, but I think you can shed a good amount of that by working and getting help from friends and family.

The over-saturation is also a gray area. If oversaturation is really a critical issue, then why are there dozens of job postings looking for associates? I think its just the desirable areas that are saturated, which is not Optometry's fault.

I think if we are talking about issues that are more directly effecting Optometry, it would have to be insurances, online companies like great glasses, and corporate entities. Still, they would only make it harder for the OD, and are far from being the antagonist.

 

[netmag]

Perhaps you should post this in the "Positives of Optometry" thread instead. The "doom agenda" folks already go out of their way to bump this thread enough as it is.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=808785

The student loan debt isn't really all that high, if you compare it to other professions. (Taken from Western University)

Optometrist = 30k/yr
Dentist= 58k/yr
Doctor = 48k/yr
Pharmacists= 44k/yr
Veterinary = 44k/yr
Physical Therapist = 34k/yr

Just by itself, Optometry IS expensive, but when you compare it to other professions, it is much more manageable. The living expenses might drive up the degree to 200k or whatever the average is, but I think you can shed a good amount of that by working and getting help from friends and family.

The over-saturation is also a gray area. If oversaturation is really a critical issue, then why are there dozens of job postings looking for associates? I think its just the desirable areas that are saturated, which is not Optometry's fault.

I think if we are talking about issues that are more directly effecting Optometry, it would have to be insurances, online companies like great glasses, and corporate entities. Still, they would only make it harder for the OD, and are far from being the antagonist.

 

[Jason K]

The student loan debt isn't really all that high, if you compare it to other professions. (Taken from Western University)

Optometrist = 30k/yr
Dentist= 58k/yr
Doctor = 48k/yr
Pharmacists= 44k/yr
Veterinary = 44k/yr
Physical Therapist = 34k/yr

Just by itself, Optometry IS expensive, but when you compare it to other professions, it is much more manageable. The living expenses might drive up the degree to 200k or whatever the average is, but I think you can shed a good amount of that by working and getting help from friends and family.

The over-saturation is also a gray area. If oversaturation is really a critical issue, then why are there dozens of job postings looking for associates? I think its just the desirable areas that are saturated, which is not Optometry's fault.

I think if we are talking about issues that are more directly effecting Optometry, it would have to be insurances, online companies like great glasses, and corporate entities. Still, they would only make it harder for the OD, and are far from being the antagonist.

shunning lifted in response to a thoughtful post....

I’ll admit, while the sample size is small (1), those tuition numbers for non-OD programs are higher than I would have guessed, especially the dental! . Although you do have to consider that Western’s OD program is brand new and has conditional accreditation, if that. That being said, as I’ve said in other situations in which comparisons to other fields are drawn, it doesn’t really matter what other degrees cost. That’s not what we’re discussing here. We’re discussing optometry. At over $200K for an OD at Western and other programs, the value is just not there, especially if you plan on staying in Southern CA as many of their students are.

As for the associate positions and OD excess? There is no gray area about OD excess in my opinion. I don’t think there are many of us who don’t agree that there are too many ODs out there right now, with more and more on the way. There are associate positions listed on the AOA site, getoptometryjobs.net, and with OD placement sites, etc. The majority of positions listed on the AOA site are not FT private practice associate positions, although there are some - even some good ones every now and then. There are loads of PT, independent contract, WalMart, Sam’s, Luxottica, VisionMart, America’s Best, etc positions listed, but they often don’t list what they actually are until you do some digging. If you just to a general search, they’ll often show up as “Associate Needed” and when you look into it, you see that it’s for every other Saturday or 4 hours on Wednesday night. Sometimes, they’re also disguised with other company names to keep people from clicking right over them. For example, America’s Best always lists their positions as National Vision. National Vision doesn’t have a bad ring to it, right? I’m not saying there are no good positions listed - there are, but the number of “real” FT jobs compared to fluff PT or commercial/retail is very small and the pay offered is often very low. The good ones also tend to be in the same states/cities repeatedly so if you’re not able/willing to relocate, your options are very limited on those sites.

If someone really wants to be an OD and they know what’s coming, I say “Go right ahead.” But if you’re not willing to lay down a ton of money soon after you graduate, or if you’re not willing to relocate to some pretty undesirable places, you’d better be ok with working at Walmart or something similar.

 

[JAZZEYE]

:
If someone really wants to be an OD and they know what's coming, I say "Go right ahead." But if you're not willing to lay down a ton of money soon after you graduate, or if you're not willing to relocate to some pretty undesirable places, you'd better be ok with working at Walmart or something similar.

Conclusions drawn from ones own perspective...

Tippy toe is 12 yrs out of school has a fairly successful private practice that he worked his butt off to get with the help of his resourceful intelligent spouse...he feels that the payoff is not really worth it,, he could've done better for what it took to get there.. and believes that graduating students don't have much a chance of getting where he is at ( they're not as bright as him ) because he is so smart and worked so hard ( with the help of his wife ) and things are getting even harder now...conclusion drawn Optometry is dead or dying.

But there is some OD somewhere who recently graduated bought a Practice or started one cold..he isn't killin it but not doing too bad maybe even pretty well...he doesn't have time or desire to post on internet forums, never did, just not his personality..he's a doer not a talker.. Conclusion drawn there is alot they don't teach you in school,, but I think I'll be ok and I actually enjoy what I do ( priceless ), I see a future in this.

Jason graduated a few years ago tried an associate position it was a nice enviorment to work in.. but the low pay and high debt kept dragging him down, so he took the leap into the dark side and went commercial doesn't like it, feels undervalued but it pays the bills..and now he questions what have I done ? is this it ?..there are so many obstacles in Optometry, would it be wise to go more into debt and risk owning a private practice with all the uncertainty and hard work that might not payoff...its not like I can move to another location because I have a personal family situation..conclusion drawn I agree with Tippy toe Optometry is dead, I could've written that myself..should've been a Dentist like my buddies.

Some other guy just graduated.. is single.. minimized their debt.. got a commercial gig making decent bucks for right out of school...he is getting some experience and paying some of his debt down and has time to explore if he'd like to get into private practice or what... maybe he's a fit in this commercial thing... he knows he's really a little lazy anyway and who needs the headaches..Optometry is clean, not too difficult work, don't have to deal with sick people, he gets to tell everybody I'm a Doctor..conclusion drawn this ain't so bad... hell you gotta do something to make a living and there is no way I was going to be a Dentist..ilk !

Theres a million stories in the naked city...

 

[Tippytoe]

Conclusions drawn from ones own perspective...

Tippy toe is 12 yrs out of school has a fairly successful private practice that he worked his butt off to get with the help of his resourceful intelligent spouse...he feels that the payoff is not really worth it,, he could've done better for what it took for him to get there.. and believes that graduating students don't have much a chance of getting where he is at ( they're not as bright as him ) because he is so smart and worked so hard ( with the help of his wife ) and things are getting even harder now...conclusion drawn Optometry is dead or dying.

Wrong again Einstein. Nothing to do with being smart. That SHOULD be a factor in optometry.........but unfortuantely it's a small player. See if it was, as smart as you are, you could just skip graduation and go right to Johns Hopkins and demand your $300,000 'optometric physician' salary.

I feel I've gotten to where I am because I came in at the right time (likely at the end of the 'good times' of optometry). And I landed in the right place (half chance). But as I've said, we've gain about 25% more ODs in my area just since I've graduated, in one decade. AND I WASN'T EVEN NEEDED HERE TO BEGIN WITH to tell you the truth. It's not like there was a great shortage of eye care before I came. Every OD here already had half empty waiting rooms and happily took any walk-in that came by and took every cheapo insurance plan as well. Essentially I TOOK patients from other eye care offices by hustling like a mad man. Many estabished ODs are filing in at other offices out of town (usually commercial joints) because they are simply not busy full-time at their own office............after 5, 10, even 20 years!

This is why OD are just not friendly to each other. We are not 'filling an unmet need', we are 'creating a need and then filling it'. BIG DIFFERENCE!!

It's simply impossible for this trend to continue. It is like Walmart putting up a new store every 1/2 mile from each other all over the country. Just too diluted.

So in summary for the short bus people, the future is not bright for optometry because of the quickly changing landscape.....ie. increased commercialism, decreased reimbursments, saturation, increased medical animosity, gov't cost-savings, greatly increased tuition, explosion of on-line opticals, de-regulation of contact lenses, reduced quality of OD school applicants (schools WILL fill the seats no matter what), and super-fast changing efficiency/technology gains allowing the average OD to see 2 or 3 times as many patients in the same time span.

Other than this.....

 

[netmag]

Many of these facts have been re-iterated before:

- everyone is different and some people will be able to handle the changes in optometry while others will not. Some will spend all their time whining about how they're barely making 6 digits or aren't making as much as a dentist. Others will not. Some will whine about how their private practice isn't making as much as it was a few years ago completely oblivious to the fact that their patients are being eaten alive by the recession right now. Some will act like their patients are just cattle to help facilitate their income. Others will not. Some will whine about how they have to compete with more ODs now. Competition in the United States of America?!?! Whoever heard of such a concept? Certainly would be easier without excessive competition but dire situation? Can't keep up anymore? At least they've got a chance if they're not too lazy or entitled to work for it. That's better than what most Americans have right now.

- many other health care fields have equal or worse issues

- not everyone wants to be a Dentist

However, the anti-optometry people aren't here to listen to common sense. You give these folks too much credit for their personal problems. They're not here to ask for help with their personal issues with the profession.

They just use their supposedly "dire" personal situations to try to justify why they spend all of their time here trying to discourage others. The excuses thrown up for their over the top whining are weak at best compared to the storm that most of America is experiencing and does not justify the level of negativity or warrant any concern for their personal situations.

Conclusions drawn from ones own perspective...

Tippy toe is 12 yrs out of school has a fairly successful private practice that he worked his butt off to get with the help of his resourceful intelligent spouse...he feels that the payoff is not really worth it,, he could've done better for what it took to get there.. and believes that graduating students don't have much a chance of getting where he is at ( they're not as bright as him ) because he is so smart and worked so hard ( with the help of his wife ) and things are getting even harder now...conclusion drawn Optometry is dead or dying.

But there is some OD somewhere who recently graduated bought a Practice or started one cold..he isn't killin it but not doing too bad maybe even pretty well...he doesn't have time or desire to post on internet forums, never did, just not his personality..he's a doer not a talker.. Conclusion drawn there is alot they don't teach you in school,, but I think I'll be ok and I actually enjoy what I do ( priceless ), I see a future in this.

Jason graduated a few years ago tried an associate position it was a nice enviorment to work in.. but the low pay and high debt kept dragging him down, so he took the leap into the dark side and went commercial doesn't like it, feels undervalued but it pays the bills..and now he questions what have I done ? is this it ?..there are so many obstacles in Optometry, would it be wise to go more into debt and risk owning a private practice with all the uncertainty and hard work that might not payoff...its not like I can move to another location because I have personal family situation..conclusion drawn I agree with Tippy toe Optometry is dead, I could've written that myself..should've been a Dentist like my buddies.

Some other guy just graduated.. is single.. minimized their debt.. got a commercial gig making decent bucks for right out of school...he is getting some experience and paying some of his debt down and has time to explore if he'd like to get into private practice or what... maybe he's a fit in this commercial thing... he knows he's really a little lazy anyway and who needs the headaches..Optometry is clean, not too difficult work, don't have to deal with sick people, he gets to tell everybody I'm a Doctor..conclusion drawn this ain't so bad... hell you gotta do something to make a living and there is no way I was going to be a Dentist..ilk !

Theres a million stories in the naked city...

 

[Jason K]

They just use their supposedly "dire" personal situations to try to justify why they spend all of their time here trying to discourage others. The excuses thrown up for their over the top whining are weak at best compared to the storm that most of America is experiencing and does not justify the level of negativity or warrant any concern for their personal situations.

Sorry, netmag, but none of the "anti-optometry" folks on here use their personal circumstances as the primary basis for justification when claiming that optometry is no longer a sound profession to pursue. I think I speak for all of us when I say that we are more than willing to share our personal circumstances so people know where we are coming from, but they are not the sole reason for our sentiments. Of course, in my situation, I'd be lying if I didn't say it contributed to it, but for me it was what got me to open my eyes and look at the big picture, it's not what makes me doubt optometry.

Also, not wanting to be a dentist and /or constantly referring to the fact that other health care professions have issues too is probably one of the weakest arguments for optometry that any of us come across on this forum. It's not "Here's why an OD is great..." Instead, it's "Everything else is hurting too so I guess an OD is good." If everyone on the block pays twice as much as they should for a home in a run-down, previously nice area, should you come in and say?: "Hey, it's ok that this house is way over-priced and in a run-down area, other people on the same block have over-paid too so I think I'll take it."

However, the anti-optometry people aren't here to listen to common sense. You give these folks too much credit for their personal problems. They're not here to ask for help with their personal issues with the profession.

What "common sense" are you referring to, exactly? It's the "optometry is awesome" crowd that dismisses hard numbers, accepted trends, and real information. There could be an OD for every 3 people in the US and some on this forum would still be on here claiming that there's nothing wrong with the profession. So, please illustrate the "common sense" that I and others are supposedly ignoring.



I think Tippytoe's little summary pretty much caps it off. I don't think what's written below is in reference to anyone's personal circumstances, it refers to anyone with an OD these days, or anyone who hopes to get one......

So in summary for the short bus people, the future is not bright for optometry because of the quickly changing landscape.....ie. increased commercialism, decreased reimbursments, saturation, increased medical animosity, gov't cost-savings, greatly increased tuition, explosion of on-line opticals, de-regulation of contact lenses, reduced quality of OD school applicants (schools WILL fill the seats no matter what), and super-fast changing efficiency/technology gains allowing the average OD to see 2 or 3 times as many patients in the same time span.

Other than this.....

 

[JAZZEYE]

They just use their supposedly "dire" personal situations to try to justify why they spend all of their time here trying to discourage others. The excuses thrown up for their over the top whining are weak at best compared to the storm that most of America is experiencing and does not justify the level of negativity or warrant any concern for their personal situations.

Which leads me to draw my own conclusions.. Tippy toe is probably the kind of guy who is negative about everything in life and has a growing list of physical ailments as a result of stress...this is his release, coming on a internet forum to F@*# with students in the pretense of concern...he was probably the kind of kid who enjoyed cooking ants with a magnifying glass.

 

[imemily]

^lol.


I think the first mistake tippy toe made was the cold start in an already serviced area. It's gonna be tough for any practitioner, be it a a dentist, Md, pharmd etc, to do well in a saturated region.


Ideally, you would want to purchase a practice with appropriate cash flow to pay your debts.....why don't more grads just opt to purchase a practice instead of the agonizing cold start?

 

[thiaeyemd]

^lol.


I think the first mistake tippy toe made was the cold start in an already serviced area. It's gonna be tough for any practitioner, be it a a dentist, Md, pharmd etc, to do well in a saturated region.


Ideally, you would want to purchase a practice with appropriate cash flow to pay your debts.....why don't more grads just opt to purchase a practice instead of the agonizing cold start?

There are two fallacies in these statements. First, as a physician I can tell you that yes starting out it may be harder in a saturated market but I don't know one physician, (my parents are both MDs and all their friends practicing in NY/NJ) who felt they were "struggling", or "couldnt make it" etc..99% of them did very well. (The ones who didn't had some personal issues, substance abuse etc...). I started a practice in 2009 and am at 85-90% capacity after two years. I am sure that is not everyone but the point is that I can say for MDs atleast your statement is not true. (I practice 20 minutes outside NYC)

I don't know that much about optometry practices but I know in Medical practices, purchasing a practice is not an easy guaranteed thing. A lot of patients are used to coming to see Dr Smith and when young Dr Jones buys the practice a few stay because of inertia but a lot tend to migrate to other doctors etc.. Buying a practice has some benefits from purchasing of hardware standpoint but don't assume cash flow will be even close to the same as when the old doctor was there. Optometry may be different but this is well known in the MD circles.. Also a practice to purchase in medicine can cost anywhere from 500K to 1 million dollars plus. Banks are not just going to hand over the money to you so it may be difficult to purchase a practice unless you have your own wealth etc..

From hearing your counterpoints to everyone here, it seems apparent that you have a fixed idea in your head (which is ok) and as my friend's mom used to say," Some people no matter how much you tell them....have to learn the hard way"...which is totally fine. I respect the opinion of the other posters here and I see no reason for them to sabotage et. They may not represent everyone in optometry but I think they reflect a valid point. As a preoptometry person the best thing to do is call some ODs in an area where you want to practice and find out how busy they are.. This avoids all this conjecture etc..

 

[Tippytoe]

Which leads me to draw my own conclusions.. Tippy toe is probably the kind of guy who is negative about everything in life and has a growing list of physical ailments as a result of stress...this is his release, coming on a internet forum to F@*# with students in the pretense of concern...he was probably the kind of kid who enjoyed cooking ants with a magnifying glass.

Okay, I'll admit, I did like frying some ants on a hot summer day. No a/c in the childhood home (in the south) made being outside more enjoyable.

Me negative? Why what ever gave you that idea? Not a chance. Just took my little boy out for a spin in my '68 mustang. Awesome car. Great family. Great life. No ailments and take no meds.
Thanks for your analysis though. I'm as cheerful a person as you'd ever wanna meet in the real world. Just not a big fan of optometry in 2025. Yes, I have a crystal ball. I see the future.

For me, I'll be relaxing in my beach house looking at my nice 2025 flying Chevy Camaro.

You in 2025: Still paying $2,000/month for school loans and getting tired of telling people the Fruit of the Looms are on isle 24.

 

[JAZZEYE]

Okay, I'll admit, I did like frying some ants on a hot summer day. No a/c in the childhood home (in the south) made being outside more enjoyable.

Me negative? Why what ever gave you that idea? Not a chance. Just took my little boy out for a spin in my '68 mustang. Awesome freaking car. I'm as cheerful a person you'd ever wanna meet in the real world. Just not big a fan of optometry in 2025. Yes, I have a crytal ball. I see the future.

For me, I'll be relaxing in my beach house looking at my nice 2025 flying Chevy Camaro.

You in 2025: Still paying $2,000/month for school loans and getting tired of telling people the Fruit of the Looms are on isle 24.

See there ya go !...I knew you were full of ****...
you have absolutely no idea what my situation and resources are in "the real world"
so how could you have anything but some kind of dillusional idea about me,
you think you know where I'll be...

all we've talked about is you,
you drew a conclusion,
based on pure conjecture.

the title of your thread is such outlandish extremism,
as I'm sure, it was meant to be...it drew my attention for awhile,
but I'm done doc !

still curious, a little,
what is your story...
your all set ?

and you really got nothing better to do ?

I don't know,
maybe your a really cool nice guy in a 68 mustang with good intentions,
or maybe your just another ass-clown.

Whatever...

 

[KHE]

See there ya go !...I knew you were full of ****...
you have absolutely no idea what my situation and resources are in "the real world"
so how could you have anything but some kind of dillusional idea about me,
you think you know where I'll be...

all we've talked about is you,
you drew a conclusion,
based on pure conjecture.

the title of your thread is such outlandish extremism,
as I'm sure, it was meant to be...it drew my attention for awhile,
but I'm done doc !

still curious, a little,
what is your story...
your all set ?

and you really got nothing better to do ?

I don't know,
maybe your a really cool nice guy in a 68 mustang with good intentions,
or maybe your just another ass-clown.

Whatever...

Ok....clearly we're at the end of the useful life of this thread.