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It is not the minority that are being kept from going out of control...it is the majority. There are two national studies involving hundreds of thousands of patients that show non compliance in 62% of those receiving opioids. In other words 2 out of every 3 patients are playing with drugs. So let that sink into the addicted brains of those that believe doctors are sanctimonious and myopic. Might be a good conversation starter in your AA and narcotics support groups.

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OMG HNK... I just lost 10 min of my life. I hate it when I do that, arghhhh. I will be only reading in the physicians forum from now on
 
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You know what I'd always like to ask MDs? Why do you care if a patient wants to stuff themselves with opiates??? Do you HONESTLY care about that patient on a personal level? Are you going to go home at night and worry about him/her? Do you concern yourself with how much alcohol they consume or whether they put tattoos on their bodies or get their ears pierced or wear their seatbelts? Are you going to phone that patient at home to check on him/her? Are you even going to think about that patient a single time after they leave your office? No, you aren't. Seriously. And you know it. (And, yes, I am a real psych student, not a "junkie," although I do love how you "professional healthcare providers" talk about/label your would-be pts.)

What med school is clearly failing to emphasize is the treatment and follow up of patients on a psychological level. There is as much (or more) psychological pain in the healthcare world as there is physical pain, and we are beginning, in fact, to learn that the two are very often linked; psych pain can manifest physically. Ever see the Cymbalta commercials? But you guys get a patient who is in psychological pain, is seeking attention or medication by going to the ED (those "frequent fliers" you all love so much), has hurt themselves in some way (boy, do those patients get treated nicely!), and you begrudgingly treat them to whatever extent they need or that you are willing/forced to by law, and then pass them off to Psych or blow them off entirely.

My biggest beef with the physical healthcare world is the highly virulent level of opiophobia, the stigma and judgment and distrust of ALL pain management patients, the change in tone and demeanor, the palpable shift in energy in the exam room when a patient asks a doctor if they can have "x" medication - not because they are an addict, not because they are a dealer, not because they are "seeking," not because they want party favors for this weekend's bash, but because they have researched the medication or taken the medication before, and IT WORKED.

Doctors need to STOP this reactionary behavior, these automatic assumptions, this red-flagging of patients based solely on the fact that they are either taking narcotic medication, or requesting it. At least in terms of how you think, it's time for doctors to return to the bygone era of house calls and bedside manner, as depicted in Norman Rockwell paintings, and actually practice medicine. Screen patients. Talk to them. Find out why they want or feel they need that medication. Ask whether they've taken it before, and for how long, and for what reason. MOST OF ALL, understand that not every patient responds to the same medications, in the same doses, the same way. Someone mentioned the P450 enzymes in this thread; that's an excellent point. Not every patient is going to have the same hepatic level of CYP2D6 or 2C19. Go back to the books. There are poor metabolizers, intermediate metabolizers, and rapid or ultrarapid metabolizers. Up to 7% of Caucasians may demonstrate ultrarapid drug metabolism because of inherited alleles with multiplicate functional CYP2D6 genes, causing an increased amount of enzyme to be expressed. Identification of UM subjects is of potential clinical importance for adjustment of doses in drug therapy, as well as to avoid misidentification of noncompliance (1). Test your patients' enzymatic levels with a simple swab. Also, take into consideration that which you learned in med school - that every patient has a different number of receptors in the brain. Some pts have less, some have more, and in those cases the patient will respond differently, often to a much lesser degree, to standard doses of narcotic medications.

Start with a 2 week script if that's what it takes to build trust and identify a particular patient's needs. Make them visit a psychologist first if that helps build trust (that might weed out a few of the dishonest ones). Then monitor the patient to the extent that you can by using UA drug screens and seeing if they call for refills early. See them again in 2 weeks and discuss the efficacy of the medication, the extent of their pain relief, how often they are using/needing the med, etc. If they are compliant, extend their script for another 2 weeks or 4 weeks. And so on. Put a little TIME into it. Be a doctor! Most of all, put a little faith into patients. Because not all of them are lying or seeking, and those that are truly in need - statistically, as many as 95% of them - are not going to abuse their pain medications.

(1) http://www.clinchem.org/content/44/5/914.long
HNK,

Would you prescribe your patient heroin if he told you it was the only thing that helped his horrible back pain (despite a normal looking MRI, an overweight belly, a refusal to do effective PT, a refusal to try yoga, a refusal to buy even ONE book on amazon.com about coping with pain)?
 
i can t believe you guys answer these dummies...
 
i kind of find the innocence and faith-in-humanity cute in a way. sort of like seeing a bunch of little baby ducklings waddling around.
 
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I'm sorry, but I violated my own advice to not feed trolls:

:troll:
LOL, I am a "troll" for disagreeing with you? Is that the best you can do? If you are conceding, then I accept your forfeiture in this debate. If you are not, then I ask you how many patients per year die as a result of anesthesia? Should we stop using milk of amnesia, succs/rocuronium or IV Versed/Valium/Propofol/etc in a medical setting? How about surgeries? How many patient die during or after surgery? How about NON-narcotic medications? I see tv commercials everyday calling for people who've been injured or lost a loved one due to some "FDA approved" medication that turned out to be very harmful. Want to compare all of these totals to the number of people who die from opioid overdose every year? Doctors and big pharma collectively hurt more patients per year than chronic pain patients hurt themselves.

And to the yahoo who said "pain is psychological," you clearly misunderstood my point. I wasn't talking about those patients who come in seeking - the fakers, or liars, or even the hypochondriacs. I am talking about TRUE pain patients with medical documentation of things such as stenosis, DDD, FM, AS, etc. Go Google those numbers and tell me the stats on how many true pain patients OD.
 
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i can t believe you guys answer these dummies...

Awww, don't feel bad. When you finish school, you might be able to join these complex discussions, too. Meanwhile, dictionary.com will help you with the big words.

(Now THAT is me being a troll...in response to a d-bag.)
 
i kind of find the innocence and faith-in-humanity cute in a way. sort of like seeing a bunch of little baby ducklings waddling around.
Probably as much as I find the jaded, hardened, unsympathetic, and judgmental disposition of you "doctors" to be stomach turning. :)
 
The reason we physicians have these rules us because, in the past, all if them have been violated by patients and have adversely affected the doctor patient relationship , the patients' lives, the lives of the family, and the physicians ability to treat other patients who truly do want to get help.

Read your own words. A huge part of pain IS psychological. We should not be using a potent drug - the most potent class of medications - to treat psychological condition.

All of us currently see probably 2000-3000 patients. Many get opioids. Each night each one of us physicians prays that each opioid patient is using those meds the safe way. Cause if even 1 is not, then there may be 2000-3000 patients that will lose their pain doctor and their treatment.


Ps pain doctors not only do injections, prescribe PT, we also refer to addiction, refer to CBT , discuss smoking cessation, consider sleep apnea check lans,discuss family matters, discuss functionality, monitor ability to work , discuss job stressors , review safety matters
Including falls, bowel hygiene, when to retire, how to get back to work....
Also, people do not have the legal right to do all you say... They don't have he right to use illegal drugs, they don't have the right yo use legal drugs without a professional opinion, the have to wear helmet in certain states, etc.


Because I've more or less grown bored with this subject, not to mention the fact that you guys are all now turning to just being tacky, clearly unable to continue defending your case in light of my inarguable points, I'll just say, whatever lets you sleep at night. But sit back and watch how fast the rest of the states legalize medical marijuana and how fast patients start taking their pain management into their own hands LEGALLY. All because of the way you "professionals" are handling the issue - or NOT handling it, as the case may be.
 
It is not the minority that are being kept from going out of control...it is the majority. There are two national studies involving hundreds of thousands of patients that show non compliance in 62% of those receiving opioids. In other words 2 out of every 3 patients are playing with drugs. So let that sink into the addicted brains of those that believe doctors are sanctimonious and myopic. Might be a good conversation starter in your AA and narcotics support groups.

Ahhh, I am "addicted" now? I will have you know that I am not on pain medication. That's also a really weak and lame position. I thought you guys were the top of the top in terms of education level? I'm really finding you each to be quite elementary in both your writing and your abilities to argue intelligently. ;)
 
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It is laughable that one would believe marijuana is the answer to most of pain patient problems with pain. The studies have shown it is useful for certain selected neuropathic only pain issues. Mechanical pain is not effectively treatable with marijuana. The use of the drug at reefer dosages causes an 8 point loss of IQ, but of course the reefers would dispute this.
Regarding medical science: it is quite a different thing to hypothesize and criticize that which you have no direct experience with, and are not in the trenches with us seeing the effects of opioids on patients, but moreover being a direct observer of human nature when individuals are given an addictive drug. Some simply cannot control it. 2/3 are engaging in substance abuse or diversion. This is not an arguable point as it has been proven in multiple large scale studies. So to discount the malevolent effects of opioids, the pressure physicians are under to cease or curtail prescribing, and to offer an illegal street drug that remains illegal under federal law (yes, this trumps state law) as a viable alternative because you think it might be better and out of the control of those evil physicians that want people to suffer, I find the arguments made to be naive, demonstrative of a lack of experience or study of the literature, and probably indicates illicit drug use among those that argue so vehemently.
 
Because I've more or less grown bored with this subject, not to mention the fact that you guys are all now turning to just being tacky, clearly unable to continue defending your case in light of my inarguable points, I'll just say, whatever lets you sleep at night. But sit back and watch how fast the rest of the states legalize medical marijuana and how fast patients start taking their pain management into their own hands LEGALLY. All because of the way you "professionals" are handling the issue - or NOT handling it, as the case may be.

HNK24,

I would like you to answer my question above.

Also, I would like you to answer this. What is the NNT (numbers needed to treat) for treating someone with chronic low back pain from DDD (your example) with opioids? Now, what is the NNH (numbers needed to harm)?

The answer to these questions are key to your understanding why people on this board responded the way they did.
 
HNK24,

I would like you to answer my question above.

Also, I would like you to answer this. What is the NNT (numbers needed to treat) for treating someone with chronic low back pain from DDD (your example) with opioids? Now, what is the NNH (numbers needed to harm)?

The answer to these questions are key to your understanding why people on this board responded the way they did.

How about I give you this instead?: http://insurancenewsnet.com/oarticl...use-of-death-in-us-a-532089.html#.U8v5wPldWSp

"WASHINGTON, July 17 - Preventable medical errors in hospitals are the third leading cause of death in the United States, a Senate panel was told today. Only heart disease and cancer kill more Americans."

I've made my points and they are inarguable IF [a doctor] has the intellectual ability to see beyond his own ego. There ARE legitimate pain patients who legitimately need opioid medications and they are being denied because of the actions of people who are dishonest or addicted. It's that simple. Those who refuse to see the issue from the patients' perspective are merely part of the problem, set up to perpetuate it into the next generation of medical personnel.
 
How about I give you this instead?: http://insurancenewsnet.com/oarticl...use-of-death-in-us-a-532089.html#.U8v5wPldWSp

"WASHINGTON, July 17 - Preventable medical errors in hospitals are the third leading cause of death in the United States, a Senate panel was told today. Only heart disease and cancer kill more Americans."

I've made my points and they are inarguable IF [a doctor] has the intellectual ability to see beyond his own ego. There ARE legitimate pain patients who legitimately need opioid medications and they are being denied because of the actions of people who are dishonest or addicted. It's that simple. Those who refuse to see the issue from the patients' perspective are merely part of the problem, set up to perpetuate it into the next generation of medical personnel.....AND, by continuing the practice of stringent withholding to any and all patients, will contribute to the rising demand for legal marijuana.
 
HNK24,

So just to be clear, your MAIN point is that there are some non-cancer patients that benefit from chronic opioid therapy, and you think that there are many patients out there that aren't being treated with opioids that would definitely benefit, correct?
 
I went back and re-read your original post.

I can see the problem - you are very condescending and judgmental. It is interesting that in your post - you basically plead for doctors NOT to be judgmental and condescending -- and you do this in a very condescending and judgmental way.

A bit of advice if you ever become a parent. Don't try to teach a child a lesson of not to hit by hitting them. I don't think it works.



My biggest beef with the physical healthcare world is the highly virulent level of opiophobia,

This isn't even close to true. I wish it were, but it isn't.

Here are some statistics for you.

USA is 4.6% of the World's population
We provide 80% of the global opioid supply
99% of hydrocodone is in USA
From 2000-2010, the Rx for opioids increased 402%.

Does the USA have more pain then anyone else? I don't think we do. I bet we SUFFER more than other nations, yet we try to treat suffering at the mu receptor. It doesn't work.

Screen patients. Talk to them. Find out why they want or feel they need that medication. Ask whether they've taken it before, and for how long, and for what reason. MOST OF ALL, understand that not every patient responds to the same medications, in the same doses, the same way.

What makes you think most doctors don't do this. Of course they do.

Someone mentioned the P450 enzymes in this thread; that's an excellent point. Not every patient is going to have the same hepatic level of CYP2D6 or 2C19. There are poor metabolizers, intermediate metabolizers, and rapid or ultrarapid metabolizers.

Excellent point. That is why Nucynta is such a good choice. It has little to zero street value, and it doesn't depend at all on the P450 enzyme system so you don't have to worry about genetic variation.

Start with a 2 week script if that's what it takes to build trust and identify a particular patient's needs. Make them visit a psychologist first if that helps build trust (that might weed out a few of the dishonest ones). Then monitor the patient to the extent that you can by using UA drug screens and seeing if they call for refills early. See them again in 2 weeks and discuss the efficacy of the medication, the extent of their pain relief, how often they are using/needing the med, etc. If they are compliant, extend their script for another 2 weeks or 4 weeks. And so on. Put a little TIME into it. Be a doctor! Most of all, put a little faith into patients. Because not all of them are lying or seeking, and those that are truly in need - statistically, as many as 95% of them - are not going to abuse their pain medications.

Here we agree. Most docs that are trying to help do this already. Again...not sure why you are being so condescending assuming most doctors don't do this.
 
HNK24,

I would like you to answer my question above.

Also, I would like you to answer this. What is the NNT (numbers needed to treat) for treating someone with chronic low back pain from DDD (your example) with opioids? Now, what is the NNH (numbers needed to harm)?

The answer to these questions are key to your understanding why people on this board responded the way they did.

1. NNT= some number > than the population of the US: 1. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24480962, 2. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17227935
2. NNH for doses > 100MED = 16.7 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24281273
 
You can't get a NNT when you have no data on long term use. Do you really think there's not 1 person helped by opiates in a nation of 300 million? If so in hope you write zero scripts for them to maintain intellectual consistency.

I'm being sarcastic. However, y0u don't want to be in a position to argue for the evidence supporting opioids for CNP. It does not exist.
All we have now is a collection of firmly held convictions and anecdotes.
 
I'm being sarcastic. However, y0u don't want to be in a position to argue for the evidence supporting opioids for CNP. It does not exist.
All we have now is a collection of firmly held convictions and anecdotes.
I figured you were being sarcastic. As far as the evidence goes, if you want to be extremely technical about it, in the absence of any higher levels of evidence at all, case reports and personal experience (anecdote) form the highest available form of "evidence". I know, it's pretty crappy, but if you want to get super technical, that's what we have to go on, ie, "clinical judgement."
 
It is not the minority that are being kept from going out of control...it is the majority. There are two national studies involving hundreds of thousands of patients that show non compliance in 62% of those receiving opioids. In other words 2 out of every 3 patients are playing with drugs. So let that sink into the addicted brains of those that believe doctors are sanctimonious and myopic. Might be a good conversation starter in your AA and narcotics support groups.

Do you have a reference for those studies? I may want to start handing those out to patients.
Thanks.
 
Do you have a reference for those studies? I may want to start handing those out to patients.
Thanks.

Patients don't care about studies. Referring doctors on the other hand slowly may, though too often their primary concern isn't the well being of the patient, but how to get rid of a problem, and all too often the answer is write a script or send them to someone that will (or they hope will).
 
I have never seen such appalling behavior. Yes addicts are idiots and cause lots of anger and pain. But many of them go through pain (physical, mental, medical or not) on a daily, hourly basis that is the thing of nightmares. Pain and discomfort that you could not even begin to understand. Would you say the same of a schizophrenic ? Addicts have no more control than they would, or a bipolar patient over their mood swings. Sure addiciton is started with a serious of dumb decisions. None of you were ever dumb teenagers? Can you imagine one... Just one of those mistakes lasting the rest of your life? Many addicts go through more trauma in their childhood than any of you ever will in your coddled, upper-class lives. I am by no means saying they are blameless.. But if you want someone to blame, talk to big pharma. Talk to the gov't that has methamphetamine, opiates legal with prescriptions, and alcohol legal to any adult, yet marijuana a SCHEDULE 1 DRUG.

There are idiot addicts bragging about their big scores just like there are idiot doctors posting here about how they are subhuman. I hope those folks have the opportunity to have a family member or loved one go through opiate addition, and see the hated, oucasts and scapegoats they become. Even the nonviolent ones that commit no crimes (other than buying drugs)

You guys certainly have some record setting high horses.
 
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It is easier to punch up....i tend not to look, much less punch, down. I am not good at it....hence i dont prescribe many opioids.
 
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