Opinions on IMG's?

[dork4life]

Hey guys, I’m pretty new to this forum, so if my question has been asked before, please don’t get mad at me… I tried to look around for an answer, but I couldn’t really find anything.

So here‘s the thing: I just recently noticed an interesting phenomenon among a lot of my university friends. I realized that out of all of my “pre-med” friends who were planning on going to medical school, every last one did. Now they didn’t all get in in Canada (in fact, the vast majority ended up going abroad, either to Europe, Australia or the Caribbean), but the fact remains that pretty much everyone who really wanted to go to medical school got in somewhere. Perhaps I’m being narrow-minded here, but I always subscribed to the school of thought that medical doctors should be our best and brightest (after all, these are the people who are being entrusted with our lives), so I find it strange that pretty much anyone can get in somewhere.

Anyways, my question is this: do you guys think it’s good or bad that students can so readily go to foreign medical schools? Also, how do you think increased IMG numbers will affect our healthcare system? Like, will increased competition among IMG’s for limited residencies lead to a highly competitive environment where only the best IMG’s get placed, and thus, our healthcare system will improve? Or do you feel that these international MD programs are just granting degrees to people who really shouldn’t be becoming doctors in the first place?

Sorry for the long-winded question… I would appreciate any opinions though so thanks in advance

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[BlondeCookie]

Hey guys, I'm pretty new to this forum, so if my question has been asked before, please don't get mad at me… I tried to look around for an answer, but I couldn't really find anything.

So here‘s the thing: I just recently noticed an interesting phenomenon among a lot of my university friends. I realized that out of all of my "pre-med" friends who were planning on going to medical school, every last one did. Now they didn't all get in in Canada (in fact, the vast majority ended up going abroad, either to Europe, Australia or the Caribbean), but the fact remains that pretty much everyone who really wanted to go to medical school got in somewhere. Perhaps I'm being narrow-minded here, but I always subscribed to the school of thought that medical doctors should be our best and brightest (after all, these are the people who are being entrusted with our lives), so I find it strange that pretty much anyone can get in somewhere.

Anyways, my question is this: do you guys think it's good or bad that students can so readily go to foreign medical schools? Also, how do you think increased IMG numbers will affect our healthcare system? Like, will increased competition among IMG's for limited residencies lead to a highly competitive environment where only the best IMG's get placed, and thus, our healthcare system will improve? Or do you feel that these international MD programs are just granting degrees to people who really shouldn't be becoming doctors in the first place?

Sorry for the long-winded question… I would appreciate any opinions though so thanks in advance

You've already stated your opinion based on some wide-sweeping generalisations about your friends. You think that your friends are more or less representative of an entire country. I see where this is going. My opinion is that you are not as open-minded as you admit. I couldn't help with my criticisms of your post, but I didn't like the subtle insults towards IMGs.

 

[dork4life]

You've already stated your opinion based on some wide-sweeping generalisations about your friends. You think that your friends are more or less representative of an entire country. I see where this is going. My opinion is that you are not as open-minded as you admit. I couldn't help with my criticisms of your post, but I didn't like the subtle insults towards IMGs.

Hey, I really didn't mean to offend you. You are correct in assuming what my opinions on the issue are, but I would love to hear your perspective. Although I probably should have been more tactful in my post, I think I share a lot of the same views (and/or misconceptions) that many people have about IMG's, so it would be great if you could set us straight.

 

[TraumaCheers]

Hey, I really didn't mean to offend you. You are correct in assuming what my opinions on the issue are, but I would love to hear your perspective. Although I probably should have been more tactful in my post, I think I share a lot of the same views (and/or misconceptions) that many people have about IMG's, so it would be great if you could set us straight.

The intricacies of the Canadian health system with regard to supply/demand, who is/isn't allowed to practice in the country, IMGs (Canadian citizens or otherwise) and the fact that "all your friends" got into med school one way or another go far beyond the short-sighted, barely-below-the-surface prejudices evident in your post.

Stay in pharmacy school kid, stay in pharmacy school.

 

[nima123]

Hey guys, I’m pretty new to this forum, so if my question has been asked before, please don’t get mad at me… I tried to look around for an answer, but I couldn’t really find anything.

So here‘s the thing: I just recently noticed an interesting phenomenon among a lot of my university friends. I realized that out of all of my “pre-med” friends who were planning on going to medical school, every last one did. Now they didn’t all get in in Canada (in fact, the vast majority ended up going abroad, either to Europe, Australia or the Caribbean), but the fact remains that pretty much everyone who really wanted to go to medical school got in somewhere. Perhaps I’m being narrow-minded here, but I always subscribed to the school of thought that medical doctors should be our best and brightest (after all, these are the people who are being entrusted with our lives), so I find it strange that pretty much anyone can get in somewhere.

Anyways, my question is this: do you guys think it’s good or bad that students can so readily go to foreign medical schools? Also, how do you think increased IMG numbers will affect our healthcare system? Like, will increased competition among IMG’s for limited residencies lead to a highly competitive environment where only the best IMG’s get placed, and thus, our healthcare system will improve? Or do you feel that these international MD programs are just granting degrees to people who really shouldn’t be becoming doctors in the first place?

Sorry for the long-winded question… I would appreciate any opinions though so thanks in advance

I mean no offense, buddy, but I smell some degree of jealousy in your comment about your friends. People who go to medical schools outside US or Canada are by no means less intelligent than those who end up here. What's more, your undergrad performance is by no means a measure of your competency as a doctor. Physicianship is much more than the kind of regurgitation that gets you through undergrad.

The Canadian medical system could not be any tougher on IMGs than it already is, and that's a shame, as many IMGs can easily outcompete Canadian and US grads (and I say this as a person who goes to med school in Canada).

You're just extremely narrow-minded; that's all!

 

[pattycanuck]

The intricacies of the Canadian health system with regard to supply/demand, who is/isn't allowed to practice in the country, IMGs (Canadian citizens or otherwise) and the fact that "all your friends" got into med school one way or another go far beyond the short-sighted, barely-below-the-surface prejudices evident in your post.

Stay in pharmacy school kid, stay in pharmacy school.

TraumaCheers! Staff now eh? Working at the same hospital?

 

[CnckChk6]

Hey guys, I’m pretty new to this forum, so if my question has been asked before, please don’t get mad at me… I tried to look around for an answer, but I couldn’t really find anything.

So here‘s the thing: I just recently noticed an interesting phenomenon among a lot of my university friends. I realized that out of all of my “pre-med” friends who were planning on going to medical school, every last one did. Now they didn’t all get in in Canada (in fact, the vast majority ended up going abroad, either to Europe, Australia or the Caribbean), but the fact remains that pretty much everyone who really wanted to go to medical school got in somewhere. Perhaps I’m being narrow-minded here, but I always subscribed to the school of thought that medical doctors should be our best and brightest (after all, these are the people who are being entrusted with our lives), so I find it strange that pretty much anyone can get in somewhere.

Anyways, my question is this: do you guys think it’s good or bad that students can so readily go to foreign medical schools? Also, how do you think increased IMG numbers will affect our healthcare system? Like, will increased competition among IMG’s for limited residencies lead to a highly competitive environment where only the best IMG’s get placed, and thus, our healthcare system will improve? Or do you feel that these international MD programs are just granting degrees to people who really shouldn’t be becoming doctors in the first place?

Sorry for the long-winded question… I would appreciate any opinions though so thanks in advance

Since I am going to be an IMG myself I thought I should draw your attention to a few things I don't think you could have possibly considered before posting such an ignorant statement/question.

1. While it may be "easier" (this is not necessarily true....) to get into international medical schools most of us have applied for years to Canada and not even gotten interviews. HIGHLY qualified individuals that don't get interviewed but that are dead set on following their dream tend to do whatever it takes to become a doctor. This suggests that we are for the most part highly motivated and driven to achieve our goal. I personally was a varsity athlete that screwed around a bit too much early on. I quit my sport and focused on school for the last few years of my program, and did very well, however I still have a lower GPA than is actually representative of my capabilities. I have a 32P on the MCAT, which is considered pretty good, and I volunteered 10 hours per week for two years....NO INTERVIEWS!

2. The fact that it may be easier to get into the medical schools themselves doesn't take away from the reality of having to do 4 years of rigorous education/training. Some of the international schools are ranked above Canadian schools (I don't mean to take away from Canadians, we have an amazing medical program here and I have the utmost respect for the Canadians that get into Canadian med schools, you have all earned it!!). Aside from the training, we have to take licencing exams in the international country, here in Canada and as well if we want, the US exams, so we are essentially signing up for a ton of exams.

3. Coming back to Canada is no easy feat. It is difficult even for the most qualified Canadian IMG not to mention those of us who want to do something like plastics/radiology etc.

4. In going to an international school, not only are we having to take out a line of credit like everyone else, we have to take out MORE than what it would cost to go to a Canadian school. For example, myself, it costs me about 60K per year to go to school. Now, let me do the math for you on that one (I am in an international program, so do be sure to check the math as I may not be competent enough on this one.....haha) that's a whopping $240K for my education. Do you think I want that debt, NO, will I take it on to be able to do something I love, ABSOLUTELY.

I hope that clears up a few things for you, and I might just mention that not only are many of the foreign medical programs excellent and well worth it, many offer an opportunity of a lifetime since you can grown and learn in a completely different country. Talk about expanding one's horizons, something that perhaps you might consider doing.....

 

[JPR22]

I think theres really 2 sides to the argument. On the one hand as CnckChk6 stated, its hard to gain admission to a Canadian school and many qualified applicants dont even receive interviews. The only way for them to become doctors is to attend school outside canada. The other side is that there is a very limited number of training positions for international graduates. Here's where I see the problem:to attend an international school is expensive, usually upwards of $200,000, which generally requires an international student to take private loans. Most countries that take international students dont usually allow them to practice as an attending in said country(aus may be an exception, not sure on the current rules). In the past most of these students would head to the US for residency, and either stay in the US or return to Canada. Coming from Irish, Australia and even some of the Carib schools, grads usually didnt have much trouble matching. The problem is that the number of US grads has significantly increased recently and will continue to do so for a number of years, they will usually get preferential treatment in the match, and the spots for IMGs will be significantly reduced. US residencies cant be taken for granted anymore. How would one pay off $250,000? I see this being a huge problem.

 

[Deltoid]

This thread was so interesting I decided to join SDN to contribute to it.

I have to agree with all the responses here so far. Any way you swing it, IMG's benefit Canada hugely. They don't detract from it.

As stated by nima123, getting into international medical schools is not always easy. In other developed countries, the admission process is no less easy than what I imagine it would be in Canada. In many (if not most) developing countries, the admisisons process is far harder because so many people want to get into the prestigious profession of medicine. In fact, a lot of people in developing countries go overseas to study the US, Canada or UK to get their education because it's easier than in their home countries

Granted, perhaps not every medical school in the world produces high-quality doctors. But given how difficult it is for IMG's to get into Canada, surely this system siphons off all of the poorly-qualified doctors from enterering Canada (and as many would argue, siphons off too many well-qualified doctors too).

Also, people go overseas for a number of reasons - not just because they didn't get into a Canadian med-school in the first place. Some might just want to explore a different country. Others would rather get into a 5-year undergrad medical program, rather than doing a 4-year undergrad and 4-year postgrad.

I fit both of the former descriptions for why I chose to study in the UK. In hindsight, I should've thought more carefully about how hard it would be to transfer back to Canada (or anywhere else in the world).

I hope all of these responses shed more light to your original question, dork4life!

 

[leviathan]

There are way fewer spots in Canadian medical schools, then there are qualified applicants.

Although many people can easily "get in" to a foreign medical school, only those who were qualified succeed through all 4 years, get their MD, and pass their board exams. The level of attrition is very high at some foreign schools, suggesting that they have the opposite scenario of Canada: more spots than qualified applicants.

Long story short: Those who deserve to get an MD will get one, and those who don't, will not. So you can relax.

 

[dork4life]

Hey guys!

Thank you for your opinions. Again, I apologize if my message seemed rude. I was just trying to get some info and your opinions did help to clear things up a bit. Also, an even bigger thank you to those of you who didn't jump down my throat for asking.

To TraumaCheers, thank you for the advice! I plan to stay in pharmacy school.

 

[xylem29]

I will echo the opinions of others. It's very true that foreign med schools (and I'm referring to the ones that cater to students who cannot gain admission in their home country, i.e, caribbean, ireland, australia) let in students that should not become physicians - these types of students however, do not finish their training. This means that IMGs that make it to the end are every bit as qualified as domestic MGs.

You have to remember that they still have to go through 4 years medical school, write their licensing exams, sucessfully match into a residency program, write more exams, finish residency, and write more exams before they are fully licensed and board certified. So all those who actually complete the entire training circuit, I feel, are all qualified to be physicians regardless of where they went to medical school.

 

[Sage880]

I'm surprised people are so angry at the OP's post. It is true that most people can get in somewhere. And while I'd say most of the people who end up going abroad really are gems. They want it bad enough that they're willing to do whatever it takes to get a degree. But there are some students who didn't get into a school for a reason. These aren't the majority by any means but they're not rare either. The people who still don't come to class enough, have to repeat years, fail or barely pass board exams.

It is frustrating, as an IMG, that sometimes these are the students people remember. But not every student who makes it into a Canadian or US school is exactly a brain surgeon either.

I'm an IMG myself and I 100% believe there should be rigorous scrutinizing of IMGs coming back to Canada. And I really think board exams and Canadian elective experience (and LOR's from Canadian doctors) is the best way to do it. Now the return of service crap.... now that is a different story.

So yes, there is a spectrum of "talent" among the IMGs. I guess the only thing people should watch out for is generalizing one way or another.

 

[Methodnike]

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[tottihead]

As a IMG in a school where it is virtually impossible not to get in if you have decent credentials I might have a bit of a different perspective.
As most who go abroad, I did very poorly in my undergrad, but as others have already mentioned that did not by any means show the actual ability that I potentially have. I think like a lot of people who go abroad, I was very immature in my first year at university, and that pretty much ruined any chance of getting in in Canada. So I came here. Now, although pretty much anyone can get in as I said earlier, people do not make it through. I know numerous students from all over the place that thought they could just go to some foreign school and get their degree but the pass rate at my school was shockingly low. After my first year, our batch went down from 75 students to a mere 40. Now our class still has a few students who arent that serious and manage to just pass through, but these students wont be able to score well enough on licensing exams and will not get into a good residency spot, so Canada doesnt have to worry about these guys. In the end, with the such few spots that are given, you're pretty much ensuring that only the people who are "late bloomers" will be the ones who get in, and even then, a lot of really good doctors will get turned away.

 

[jochi1543]

I think like a lot of people who go abroad, I was very immature in my first year at university, and that pretty much ruined any chance of getting in in Canada.

We do, however, have a whole set of schools catering to folks who didn't do that hot in their first year or two (or even later years, for schools like UWO!). For example, if your GPA has been 2.0, 4.0, 4.0, 4.0 and you are applying after your 4th year, your GPA is 4.0 at UWO, Queen's, and Ottawa. Manitoba and Toronto also let you drop courses, so if you have been pretty good with the exception of 8 or fewer crappy grades, you can pretty much literally erase the bad grades from your record.

Therefore, I wouldn't be so quick as to say that a person who did poorly for part of their academic career has no chance in Canada - there's a good # of schools catering to such applicants. Of course, many of these schools have a catch, specifically, being really focused on the MCAT, like Manitoba with 50% of the score going to the MCAT, and Queen's and UWO with their cutoffs. So if you did poorly in school AND on the MCAT, then yes, you're screwed. But the MCAT is the great equalizer, and you really get the opportunity to show these 2-year schools that yes, you are a worthy candidate even though you might have had EIGHT years of C averages before you got that 3.7 (UWO)/3.78 (Queen's). I had a 3.3 average in my first 2 years, which makes me a poor candidate for many out-of-province schools, and even for my IP schools (Calgary and AB), I'm below average, but the fact that I busted my @$$ for the MCAT and hit all the cutoffs for Queens and UWO lets me redeem myself after having a less than competitive academic record that improved in my last 2 years.

 

[jnuts]

One other thing to throw into the mix is that Canada is training the lowest number of doctors per capita of any Western country (in the context of an acute shortage of doctors). There are no plans to address this problem domestically.

Looking beyond that, there are a huge number of Canadians training in medicine abroad, and a large amount of legal precedent against the current medical licensing system (for example return-of-service clauses).

Canada will have to change its policies on IMGs in the very near future.

Although this will not be a popular opinion on a medical site, I personally believe that medicine should not attract the best and brightest. There is very little about the practice of medicine that is academically challenging. However, many people end up in medicine-and thoroughly dislike it- simply because it is seen as the greatest challenge available to them. And for those who are scientifically minded, the other commonly thought of option, research, is socially and administratively unappealing. By the standards used for the advancment of clinicians, a 'good' doctor, and by extrapolation, a good candidate for medical training, should have a level of intelligence adequate to exactingly follow a protocol, phenomenal patience and social skills, and finally for some specialties manual dexterixty and spatial reasoning. The talents of lateral thinkers and gifted problem solvers would best be spent elsewhere in our society.

I think that most Canadians should at least be expected to site their reasoning before making a statement of who should be allowed to do what in our country, as the assumptions behind the logic in the other posts here have led to some great injustices and very poor social policy in Canada.

 

[TraumaCheers]

By the standards used for the advancment of clinicians, a 'good' doctor, and by extrapolation, a good candidate for medical training, should have a level of intelligence adequate to exactingly follow a protocol, phenomenal patience and social skills, and finally for some specialties manual dexterixty and spatial reasoning. The talents of lateral thinkers and gifted problem solvers would best be spent elsewhere in our society.

Interesting take.

I will tell you that the good news is that it won't all be about following protocol. There is a surprising amount of innovation, ingenuity, and creativity involved. I, too, remember thinking this line of thought as a medical student.

I've been pleasantly surprised.

Having said that, medicine is a good place for people incapable of lateral thought, who are otherwise of a reasonable intelligence level, to hide. Because, as you note, medicine can be performed by following protocols, acting on the research and intellect of others, and essentially memorizing a cookbook of treatment strategies.

But that's only if you choose to stop there. It's not that medicine stifles the individual... it's that too many individuals think of medicine as a "guarantee" exactly because it's protocol driven. They equate success as the ability to memorize everything possible, regurgitate, and follow flow charts. Those who would be successful in engineering, politics, business, art... they will (and can) be successful in an innovative forum in medicine, too. The not so subtle message I'm sending to you is don't blame the vocation if you feel like your ability to create and innovate is somehow stifled.

Look in the mirror.

TC