Opening a new “Dental Practice” days are numbered.

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Nah. I have 2 brother in laws who live in CA. One in Orange County (Ladera Ranch) and the other at Newport Beach. Been there several times. It's OK, but not ideal. The beaches cannot compete with the sugary white beaches on the gulf of Mexico (Florida). Extreme taxes. Real Estate is ridiculous in some areas. How about the ever routine fires in CA? Traffic?

We gets TONS of Californians moving to Arizona. I will always have a place in N. Scottsdale. This area is relatively rural with small urban areas. Plenty of ranches with horses. Very cool. Winter time: golf in the morning, can go skiiing in the afternoon in Flagstaff ... SAME day. You want beaches? Mexico (Rocky Point) is a 4 hr drive away. Our winter weather is unrivalled. Summers .... well ... they suck.

California. Nope. JMHO.
I remember ordering a pizza this one night in Phoenix. Got an emergency weather alert advising to seek shelter for "dust storm." Never heard of such a thing coming from midwest. A few min later went out to retrieve my pizza....ended up tipping the delivery person extra after seeing the state of all the cars parked outside.

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Nah. I have 2 brother in laws who live in CA. One in Orange County (Ladera Ranch) and the other at Newport Beach. Been there several times. It's OK, but not ideal. The beaches cannot compete with the sugary white beaches on the gulf of Mexico (Florida). Extreme taxes. Real Estate is ridiculous in some areas. How about the ever routine fires in CA? Traffic?

We gets TONS of Californians moving to Arizona. I will always have a place in N. Scottsdale. This area is relatively rural with small urban areas. Plenty of ranches with horses. Very cool. Winter time: golf in the morning, can go skiiing in the afternoon in Flagstaff ... SAME day. You want beaches? Mexico (Rocky Point) is a 4 hr drive away. Our winter weather is unrivalled. Summers .... well ... they suck.

California. Nope. JMHO.
Nuff said.
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Yup, and it's the best county in CA.....no, it's the best county in the USA.

Man I've been thinking about Sam Woo's BBQ all day. Wife doesn't like Hong Kong style food so I have to sneak some in. Makes me want to jump on a plane and fly down to OC John Wayne Airport and eat till I have full blown diabetes, burp, and fly back. I can't afford to live in Cali. My 4.5 car garage, earthquake resistant house with a nice view of the valley I got for less than $500k would cost about 4 to 5 times more there. Too bad I didn't listen to my father and marry rich.
 
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Man I've been thinking about Sam Woo's BBQ all day. Wife doesn't like Hong Kong style food so I have to sneak some in. Makes me want to jump on a plane and fly down to OC John Wayne Airport and eat till I have full blown diabetes, burp, and fly back. I can't afford to live in Cali. My 4.5 garage, earthquake resistant house with a nice view of the valley I got for less than $500k would cost about 4 to 5 times more there. Too bad I didn't listen to my father and marry rich.
just curious does your wife fly coach to Taiwan? or business class?
 
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just curious does your wife fly coach to Taiwan? or business class?

We can't afford business class. I did buy her the car of her dreams and another smaller car to go grocery shopping...Fresh Off the Boat Taiwanese women can't drive.
 
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Do you guys think it’s easier to find a job as a general dentist or a specialist if I want to live in/close to major cities? Working as an associate/Corp.

Im still trying to decide whether to work as a GP and settle down or to specialize(endo) after military. I definitely want to live close to a major city though.
 
Man I've been thinking about Sam Woo's BBQ all day. Wife doesn't like Hong Kong style food so I have to sneak some in. Makes me want to jump on a plane and fly down to OC John Wayne Airport and eat till I have full blown diabetes, burp, and fly back. I can't afford to live in Cali. My 4.5 car garage, earthquake resistant house with a nice view of the valley I got for less than $500k would cost about 4 to 5 times more there. Too bad I didn't listen to my father and marry rich.

My asian parents always advice me to marry someone who is not just good at putting on make up and stay home ;)

I don’t know though. I’d rather have a pretty spouse than a working one but not pretty.. lol
 
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I find it interesting that the thread question relates to opening a new practice...from the ground up. I did this 22 years ago. It was the best thing I ever did professionally, and I never looked back...because I went where there was a need.

Most of the posts in response on this thread relate to crushing debt from dental school (and probably college before that).

My friends, you have been sold a pig in a poke.

As alumni, I would urge that you go to you Alma Mater dental school and tell them that you will not give a single alumni cent to them until they lower their tuition at least 30-50 percent. My tuition in the mid-1980s was $1,700 per quarter (about $4,100 today) for four quarters ($16,400 per year), plus about $6,700.00 ($16,000.00 in 2020) in equipment that we had to buy over the 4 years. I still use some of this equipment.

If you are willing to go anywhere to set up a practice, you will do fine. This might mean going to a small town of 2,000-4,000 people. If you want to practice in a big metropolitan area that is "fun" to live in, forget it. But, if you are willing to go to a place that has a need, you will do great. I know of a number of small towns in my regional area that are desperate for dentists. And believe me, you will be a pillar of the community there.

And don't hang your hat on DMOs (dental maintenance organizations). Besides being unethical and immoral, they will drain your soul. I still remember a case from the mid-1990s in which I had a patient who had a buccal space infection from an infected lower first molar, and I had to call the DMO to get coverage for the odontectomy, and the knucklehead bureaucrat that I got on the phone told me that they would only pay if I also removed the adjacent tooth, which had been also treatment-planned for removal by the patient's dentist. In the name of God!

I'm not sure in this volatile economy it makes sense to a start up in a small town. We are seeing small towns being upended due to huge employers closing down.

Saturation may be higher in the big city, but also less chance of the local economy busting.


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I'm not sure in this volatile economy it makes sense to a start up in a small town. We are seeing small towns being upended due to huge employers closing down.

Saturation may be higher in the big city, but also less chance of the local economy busting.


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Look. There's pros and cons to wherever you set up shop or look for employment. My bias is that I would be looking for simplicity with a small, traditional practice given what I know today. I get it though. If you are a young, newly graduated dentist with DS debt .... there will be more employment options in a large, saturated city. That's a given. But with more employment options comes more competition. I've started 3 practices from scratch. Each time .... I looked for areas with very little competition (orthos). No Corps. Looked for In - And - Out or McDonalds fast food places (since they know where the growth is headed). I looked for new rooftops as they say. Found the perfect spot. Built the office. Then within a few years ..... more orthos moved in. More Corps moved in. More GPs doing ortho moved in. The patient pie can only be divided in so many pieces.

So when you discuss a major employer shutting down .... this is no different than 10-20 dental entities moving next to you. I assure you. This pattern of more competition will find you.

Of course there will always be those alpha practices that do well regardless. What about everybody else?

Back in the early 90's .... there were plenty of semi-rural areas in the Phx metro area. Most on the outskirt of the major metro area. Phx has many people moving to our cities (mostly from CA ...... lol). Not just retirees. As a result ...... tons of Corps and tons of dentists. EVERYWHERE. If you travel to the inner city areas ..... the amount of dental offices (mostly Corp) is staggering. Now? The Corps are having trouble with all the Corp competition. The Corps are everywhere. There is this new Corp player in town who has undercut all of our prices. This Corp basically opened within a block of most of my Corp's offices. Seriously. A block. Bottom line? Having a dental practice in a saturated area is a joke.

So. Find a happy medium. A semi-rural area with some solid blue chip employers. Open a traditional practice or buy a reasonably priced practice. Share space to start out. Get involved in the community. Do the things that a good traditional dental practice does to attract patients. Get back to practicing dentistry .... not offering a low fee commodity.
 
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Out of curiousity, what kind of car?

2010 Lexus RX back in 2009. It was the first silver one in the state. We were getting a lot of stares everywhere. I was able to pay in cash but decided on 0% financing to avoid unnecessary liquidating during the Recession. She's driving a 2016 Corolla because she doesn't want to ding up the Lexus at the grocers.
 
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Hey don't knock the Asian food in ATL!


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Almost went to Emory in 1989. To be fair in a big city like Atl, I won't be surprised if it has world class Asian food. Was disappointed with Denver though.
 
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My asian parents always advice me to marry someone who is not just good at putting on make up and stay home ;)

I don’t know though. I’d rather have a pretty spouse than a working one but not pretty.. lol

The term you are looking for is a “trophy spouse”.

In Taiwan, we refer Trophy Wife as a "vase" which means very pretty but have no function. My wife is very conscience of that label so she wants to strive to keep and maintain a healthy family. She's not very familiar with American ways and finances so it's up to me to make sure we have enough for retirement.
 
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Do you guys think it’s easier to find a job as a general dentist or a specialist if I want to live in/close to major cities? Working as an associate/Corp.

Im still trying to decide whether to work as a GP and settle down or to specialize(endo) after military. I definitely want to live close to a major city though.

I'm trying to put myself in your shoes. Since you like to live where there is a very large Asian presence, I would use the Navy to specialize. Asians love implants and ortho. The military has a 2 yr AEGD program where maybe you can do more of both or you can choose one or the other. There were a lot of implant groups that try to discredit endo so I hear a lot of endodontists are placing implants.
 
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Look. There's pros and cons to wherever you set up shop or look for employment. My bias is that I would be looking for simplicity with a small, traditional practice given what I know today. I get it though. If you are a young, newly graduated dentist with DS debt .... there will be more employment options in a large, saturated city. That's a given. But with more employment options comes more competition. I've started 3 practices from scratch. Each time .... I looked for areas with very little competition (orthos). No Corps. Looked for In - And - Out or McDonalds fast food places (since they know where the growth is headed). I looked for new rooftops as they say. Found the perfect spot. Built the office. Then within a few years ..... more orthos moved in. More Corps moved in. More GPs doing ortho moved in. The patient pie can only be divided in so many pieces.

So when you discuss a major employer shutting down .... this is no different than 10-20 dental entities moving next to you. I assure you. This pattern of more competition will find you.

Of course there will always be those alpha practices that do well regardless. What about everybody else?

Back in the early 90's .... there were plenty of semi-rural areas in the Phx metro area. Most on the outskirt of the major metro area. Phx has many people moving to our cities (mostly from CA ...... lol). Not just retirees. As a result ...... tons of Corps and tons of dentists. EVERYWHERE. If you travel to the inner city areas ..... the amount of dental offices (mostly Corp) is staggering. Now? The Corps are having trouble with all the Corp competition. The Corps are everywhere. There is this new Corp player in town who has undercut all of our prices. This Corp basically opened within a block of most of my Corp's offices. Seriously. A block. Bottom line? Having a dental practice in a saturated area is a joke.

So. Find a happy medium. A semi-rural area with some solid blue chip employers. Open a traditional practice or buy a reasonably priced practice. Share space to start out. Get involved in the community. Do the things that a good traditional dental practice does to attract patients. Get back to practicing dentistry .... not offering a low fee commodity.

I would seriously consider ways to supplement the diminishing dental income with passive income and or other sources. However as "tooth mover" (I'm dyslexic) described from other posts, there are huge risks with passive income as well. Possibly look into side gigs or marry rich.
 
I'm not sure in this volatile economy it makes sense to a start up in a small town. We are seeing small towns being upended due to huge employers closing down.

Saturation may be higher in the big city, but also less chance of the local economy busting.


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I agree that COVID-10 is a monkey wrench, but I think it depends on the town.

You have to do your homework. You have to know the demographics, employers, average income, any managed care, etc. You have to come up with a business plan, along with a proforma. The proforma has to have projected income and expenses, and you have to prove to the bank where you came up with the numbers.

For this year's graduates who have already planned to go into solo practice or who are buying an existing practice, you should already know this.
 
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My asian parents always advice me to marry someone who is not just good at putting on make up and stay home ;)

I don’t know though. I’d rather have a pretty spouse than a working one but not pretty.. lol
You should be fine because you are a dentist. Most of the dentists I know have pretty wives.
 
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So today I learned that you only have to do 4 year payback and that AEGD is not required for Navy HPSP scholars. Apparently they can also use GI bill after 4-year payback to go to a civilian specialty program. Can anyone confirm? I'm definitely jealous! I feel like this is the only economically sensible way to specialize at this time.
 
So today I learned that you only have to do 4 year payback and that AEGD is not required for Navy HPSP scholars. Apparently they can also use GI bill after 4-year payback to go to a civilian specialty program. Can anyone confirm? I'm definitely jealous! I feel like this is the only economically sensible way to specialize at this time.

The only branch that requires you to do an AEGD is Air Force. And yes you can use the gi bill after your commitment and have 100% tuition coverage plus a stipend at any public school in the US. If you attend a private school it is capped at 25k a year + stipend.
 
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Apparently they can also use GI bill after 4-year payback to go to a civilian specialty program. Can anyone confirm?.
I believe so. There are couple of specialty residents who are paying for their civilian programs under GI Bill. Check with [mention]FutureDent020 [/mention]


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Does opening a new practice really make sense? Genuinely curious here. I know there are lots of success stories on here, but personally it seems like I would rather take the safe route and buy an existing practice which already generates good revenue/cash flow. Yes I'll be paying way more for the practice, but I'll also have a guaranteed revenue stream. Then if you want, you can "start up" for a second location.

The upsides to this strategy:
1. revenue -> you already have a steady source of revenue, as long as you can keep up with the production of the previous doc
2. patient base -> this ties in with point #1, but you already start with a sizeable patient base, and you can build up from here by advertising etc.
3. Head start -> Rather than starting from 0, you start with an advantage. You can use this head start to snowball into something bigger
4. Reputation -> While the reputation actually belongs to the selling doc, that reputation can be transferred over time as long as you do good work. Despite being the new doc in town, your reputation also starts out higher by being associated with the established doc (assumption)

The downsides I see to this strategy:
1. cost -> an established practice costs way more than a startup
2. staff -> when you first buy the practice, you'll probably have to work with what you are given. In the long term though, you can probably fire/hire to suit your needs
3. philosophy -> the practice philosophy might not be the same as yours. You might have a different way of operating than the owner and that can cause some inefficiencies s to arise. However this can be mitigated by making sure you're buying a practice that suits yourself
4. overhead -> when you start your own practice, you control everything about your overhead. But when you buy, things like rent/equipment overhead may be out of your control initially, because you can't choose the building you practice in, nor can you replace all the chairs/equipment as soon as you purchase. Staff salaries also play a role, it's possible the previous doc was overpaying his staff because they were tenured.

Thoughts?
 
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Does opening a new practice really make sense? Genuinely curious here. I know there are lots of success stories on here, but personally it seems like I would rather take the safe route and buy an existing practice which already generates good revenue/cash flow. Yes I'll be paying way more for the practice, but I'll also have a guaranteed revenue stream. Then if you want, you can "start up" for a second location.

The upsides to this strategy:
1. revenue -> you already have a steady source of revenue, as long as you can keep up with the production of the previous doc
2. patient base -> this ties in with point #1, but you already start with a sizeable patient base, and you can build up from here by advertising etc.
3. Head start -> Rather than starting from 0, you start with an advantage. You can use this head start to snowball into something bigger
4. Reputation -> While the reputation actually belongs to the selling doc, that reputation can be transferred over time as long as you do good work. Despite being the new doc in town, your reputation also starts out higher by being associated with the established doc (assumption)

The downsides I see to this strategy:
1. cost -> an established practice costs way more than a startup
2. staff -> when you first buy the practice, you'll probably have to work with what you are given. In the long term though, you can probably fire/hire to suit your needs
3. philosophy -> the practice philosophy might not be the same as yours. You might have a different way of operating than the owner and that can cause some inefficiencies s to arise. However this can be mitigated by making sure you're buying a practice that suits yourself
4. overhead -> when you start your own practice, you control everything about your overhead. But when you buy, things like rent/equipment overhead may be out of your control initially, because you can't choose the building you practice in, nor can you replace all the chairs/equipment as soon as you purchase. Staff salaries also play a role, it's possible the previous doc was overpaying his staff because they were tenured.

Thoughts?

I think you have the right thoughts. I can foresee some nightmare scenarios. I was an assoc at a private practice setting for 3 months. My predecessor was a crook. He was only there for a couple of years and apparently scared away all the patients by the time I got there. The only patients to show up were needing redos or having complications with his work. This individual was in-cahoots with the owners due to their shared religion. Many times it is hard to predict what environment you will encounter until you experience it. I would make some kind of arrangements for any redos, complications, etc. Check if the prior owner had been at the practice for a while or just flipping practices. You may lose a lot of patients of record but hopefully you can win them back with your skill and chairside manners.
 
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Does opening a new practice really make sense? Genuinely curious here. I know there are lots of success stories on here, but personally it seems like I would rather take the safe route and buy an existing practice which already generates good revenue/cash flow. Yes I'll be paying way more for the practice, but I'll also have a guaranteed revenue stream. Then if you want, you can "start up" for a second location.

The upsides to this strategy:
1. revenue -> you already have a steady source of revenue, as long as you can keep up with the production of the previous doc
2. patient base -> this ties in with point #1, but you already start with a sizeable patient base, and you can build up from here by advertising etc.
3. Head start -> Rather than starting from 0, you start with an advantage. You can use this head start to snowball into something bigger
4. Reputation -> While the reputation actually belongs to the selling doc, that reputation can be transferred over time as long as you do good work. Despite being the new doc in town, your reputation also starts out higher by being associated with the established doc (assumption)

The downsides I see to this strategy:
1. cost -> an established practice costs way more than a startup
2. staff -> when you first buy the practice, you'll probably have to work with what you are given. In the long term though, you can probably fire/hire to suit your needs
3. philosophy -> the practice philosophy might not be the same as yours. You might have a different way of operating than the owner and that can cause some inefficiencies s to arise. However this can be mitigated by making sure you're buying a practice that suits yourself
4. overhead -> when you start your own practice, you control everything about your overhead. But when you buy, things like rent/equipment overhead may be out of your control initially, because you can't choose the building you practice in, nor can you replace all the chairs/equipment as soon as you purchase. Staff salaries also play a role, it's possible the previous doc was overpaying his staff because they were tenured.

Thoughts?
It would seem to make since that a guaranteed positive cash flow immediately is the way to go, but if you don't know how to analyze a business or have hired someone with the expertise to decipher the health of a business as well as understand the work flow and patient base, things can go very wrong. You have a few years to peruse dental town, you'll notice that a lot of the time that things go poorly for first time owners, it is generally the same scenarios. You would hope that in an ideal world the person selling the business to you would be of the same ethical standards, but that isn't always the case, and you may be buying a lemon: uptick in procedures over a short time frame to make the business revenue look better, lack of new patients, patient pool being over treated so real revenues would be considerably less, former doc was very conservative clinically and you may not be - this leads to patient wariness, staff issues with turning the business over, etc etc.

So in regards to all of the potential problems, if you are a potential buyer and unable to diagnose the situation early, it can be emotionally draining to deal with; on the other hand, given the right scenario, like Charlestweed has mentioned numerous times, sometimes starting an office at low cost, while putting in the work, while balancing another income stream can sometimes be beneficial, without all of the potential headaches of trying to convert someone else's former business to fit your own vision.
Pros and Cons to both situations
 
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Yeah there are a few paths I could see for an eventual owner/partner

1. Associate till I'm comfortable with jumping into solo ownership -> Buy existing practice
2. Associate to Partnership route where you start out as an associate then become partner with a buy in or sweat equity
3. Associate -> startup + keep an associate side gig for income while my startup practice grows
4. Buy a practice right out of school with no other experience (I personally wouldn't be comfortable with this)

The first 2 routes seem financially safer, but they both have their downsides such as the inability to implement your own philosophy or having 100% autonomy (especially in a partnership)

#3 is what most dentists on here seem to do. It probably gives you the most autonomy/most control over your business. You can control your rent, your overhead, your staff, your philosophy etc. But you always live with the risk of your startup failing (aka your practice never takes off)

There is also option 5
5. Corp -> ownership within the DSO
Maybe this model will become more popular as corps get larger within dentistry. I don't consider this true ownership because it seems like the corp is the actual owner and you just work there.
 
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Yeah there are a few paths I could see for an eventual owner/partner

1. Associate till I'm comfortable with jumping into solo ownership -> Buy existing practice
2. Associate to Partnership route where you start out as an associate then become partner with a buy in or sweat equity
3. Associate -> startup + keep an associate side gig for income while my startup practice grows
4. Buy a practice right out of school with no other experience (I personally wouldn't be comfortable with this)

The first 2 routes seem financially safer, but they both have their downsides such as the inability to implement your own philosophy or having 100% autonomy (especially in a partnership)

#3 is what most dentists on here seem to do. It probably gives you the most autonomy/most control over your business. You can control your rent, your overhead, your staff, your philosophy etc. But you always live with the risk of your startup failing (aka your practice never takes off)

There is also option 5
5. Corp -> ownership within the DSO
Maybe this model will become more popular as corps get larger within dentistry. I don't consider this true ownership because it seems like the corp is the actual owner and you just work there.

1. Seems like a safer option. You already know the clinic, equipment, patients, and mentor-ship if you like the owner. I was going to assoc in a 1.2 mil practice an hour away in a rural area with the owner staying for a couple of years and then buy. You can kind of sense if the owner will screw you over.
2. I don't hear many Partnerships and the ones I do hear don't turn out as planned or ideal.
3. I know a lot of assoc doing this. It takes some time (years) before you start making profit especially in highly desirable, saturated areas.
4. Maybe in an undesirable area where no other dentists want to be.
5. I'm not sure for Kaiser model, but for franchise, IMO, absolutely not. You have to pay very high franchise fees for their marketing and no autonomy because you have to play by their rules and overhead models. This option reminds me of going to the casino which the house always wins. I'm guessing you don't have much autonomy with Kaiser part ownership as well.
 
Yeah there are a few paths I could see for an eventual owner/partner

1. Associate till I'm comfortable with jumping into solo ownership -> Buy existing practice
2. Associate to Partnership route where you start out as an associate then become partner with a buy in or sweat equity
3. Associate -> startup + keep an associate side gig for income while my startup practice grows
4. Buy a practice right out of school with no other experience (I personally wouldn't be comfortable with this)

The first 2 routes seem financially safer, but they both have their downsides such as the inability to implement your own philosophy or having 100% autonomy (especially in a partnership)

#3 is what most dentists on here seem to do. It probably gives you the most autonomy/most control over your business. You can control your rent, your overhead, your staff, your philosophy etc. But you always live with the risk of your startup failing (aka your practice never takes off)

There is also option 5
5. Corp -> ownership within the DSO
Maybe this model will become more popular as corps get larger within dentistry. I don't consider this true ownership because it seems like the corp is the actual owner and you just work there.

This is an excellent post. In my own dental class, none of the people who opened their own practice from scratch had any long-term problems. Conversely, the stories that I have heard about problems were people who bought a (general) practice from a solo practitioner, and people who joined a group.

My two best friends in school became associates in practices with their home town dentists. Both of them were going to eventually buy the guys out, and both of them were hosed with this. They both did not like the lack of control that they had in the care they gave the patient. The staff were not working for them, as they were not signing the paychecks. One of the selling dentists had overworked the patients in his practice in the previous year to boost the production, and this raised the price of the practice. When my friend came in, he could not meet the note, because the patients had already done the big crown and bridge, and he had to declare bankruptcy. Uffda.

Friends that I had who joined a group found that everything was up to a vote among the partners. When you are an associate, and you are told that you cannot do something because you were outvoted, that is a hard pill to swallow. One friend developed a medical problem, and his partners were not sympathetic at all.

One important point from me in buying a practice is to understand the difference between a stock purchase and an asset purchase.

A stock purchase is favorable to the seller. With a stock purchase, the seller only has to pay capital gains tax. The buyer inherits all of the former owner's corporate liability. So, if a year after the seller leaves, one of the employees decides to sue for sexual harrasment that was committed by the seller, the buyer is on the legal hook for that.

With an asset purchase, the buyer does not inherit corporate liability, but the seller has to pay tax at his or her personal rate, which tends to be astronomical compared to the capital gains rate.

If you are a seller, you want to sell stock. If you are a buyer, you want to buy assets. When you join a group practice, it is usually a combination of stock and assets.

Remember, everything is fair in love, war, real estate, and dental practice purchases.

Hence another reason to consider starting from scratch.

Having said that, there is nothing wrong with working as an associate for a few years to get your feet on the ground, get a sense of what you like and don't like, and what is important to you in practice. I did this. I worked for six years in three different practices before I decided to open my own.

In my own practice, I NEVER dread going into work, because it is patient centered, and I don't' worry about keeping someone else happy with my production. I don't drive a super nice car, but I have a 2005 Chevy Suburban with a snowplow. I bought it new, it is on its third engine, and it has 300,000 miles. The positive about this is that I was able to drop my gym membership and stop working on the abs. There is nothing more masculine looking than a Suburban with a snowplow. And I have had the time to go to lots of youth hockey events.

Also, I am not that impressed with practice management consultants' advice on joining a practice. We interviewed a guy for our group, and he showed us the letter he had received from a consultant about our contract offer. I looked the consultant up online, and I have kids older than him. This consultant told him nothing of these pitfalls that I mentioned, at least not in the letter. I would recommend a business attorney who is very familiar with this sort of thing.
 
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This is an excellent post. In my own dental class, none of the people who opened their own practice from scratch had any long-term problems. Conversely, the stories that I have heard about problems were people who bought a (general) practice from a solo practitioner, and people who joined a group.

My two best friends in school became associates in practices with their home town dentists. Both of them were going to eventually buy the guys out, and both of them were hosed with this. They both did not like the lack of control that they had in the care they gave the patient. The staff were not working for them, as they were not signing the paychecks. One of the selling dentists had overworked the patients in his practice in the previous year to boost the production, and this raised the price of the practice. When my friend came in, he could not meet the note, because the patients had already done the big crown and bridge, and he had to declare bankruptcy. Uffda.

Friends that I had who joined a group found that everything was up to a vote among the partners. When you are an associate, and you are told that you cannot do something because you were outvoted, that is a hard pill to swallow. One friend developed a medical problem, and his partners were not sympathetic at all.

One important point from me in buying a practice is to understand the difference between a stock purchase and an asset purchase.

A stock purchase is favorable to the seller. With a stock purchase, the seller only has to pay capital gains tax. The buyer inherits all of the former owner's corporate liability. So, if a year after the seller leaves, one of the employees decides to sue for sexual harrasment that was committed by the seller, the buyer is on the legal hook for that.

With an asset purchase, the buyer does not inherit corporate liability, but the seller has to pay tax at his or her personal rate, which tends to be astronomical compared to the capital gains rate.

If you are a seller, you want to sell stock. If you are a buyer, you want to buy assets. When you join a group practice, it is usually a combination of stock and assets.

Remember, everything is fair in love, war, real estate, and dental practice purchases.

Hence another reason to consider starting from scratch.

Having said that, there is nothing wrong with working as an associate for a few years to get your feet on the ground, get a sense of what you like and don't like, and what is important to you in practice. I did this. I worked for six years in three different practices before I decided to open my own.

In my own practice, I NEVER dread going into work, because it is patient centered, and I don't' worry about keeping someone else happy with my production. I don't drive a super nice car, but I have a 2005 Chevy Suburban with a snowplow. I bought it new, it is on its third engine, and it has 300,000 miles. The positive about this is that I was able to drop my gym membership and stop working on the abs. There is nothing more masculine looking than a Suburban with a snowplow. And I have had the time to go to lots of youth hockey events.

Also, I am not that impressed with practice management consultants' advice on joining a practice. We interviewed a guy for our group, and he showed us the letter he had received from a consultant about our contract offer. I looked the consultant up online, and I have kids older than him. This consultant told him nothing of these pitfalls that I mentioned, at least not in the letter. I would recommend a business attorney who is very familiar with this sort of thing.

Thanks for your informative post. What I don't get is why would anybody buy stock? What are the benefits of the purchase? It seems like every dentist want to screw you over.
 
Excellent information @OMSDoc . All good and valid points. I'll add some more points.

When I sold ..... the tax ramifications depended on goodwill vs. assets. Or nontangible (goodwill) vs. tangible (assets). Most sellers want the practice to be mostly goodwill whereas buyers want assets for tax reasons. This is a "bargaining" issue when negotiating with the buyer. Banks want to loan on ASSETS. If a seller plays games on the stock or goodwill issues ..... this could come back to haunt the seller with an IRS audit. The safest way for a buyer is to have the assets of the practice appraised and have this documented. I utilized a Patterson equipment broker who I knew. He did it for no charge. As stated above .... it's all about the tax bomb later for the seller. Buyer wants to be able to take the tax deduction on the assets. It's essentially give and take during the negotiation, but I personally wanted to do it the CORRECT way without worrying about a future tax audit. Yes ... I had to pay a considerable tax bomb the following year. The tax bomb for the seller amounts to price for practice less remaining practice depreciation which is taxed.

I also am not a fan of associates with no business experience buying into large partnerships with stock. The business partners have ALL the leverage and can manipulate the stock, goodwill and assets to their advantage.

ALWAYS have professional representation when buying (or selling) a practice. This includes a tax accountant and a specialized attorney.

Another point is that when you have a bank loan for a practice. You can write off the interest, but the PRINCIPAL amount with your loan payments are considered personal income.

Another story. There was this attractive, growing area where there was just two GPs practicing there. One GP decided to sell his practice to a young dentist. The practice was around 2000 sq ft in a retail area next to a supermarket. The new dentist paid a little over 900K for that practice. NO REAL ESTATE was included. Just a practice. Fast forward 2-3 years ...... a total of approx 8-10 new dentists (including myself) moved to that area. 2 Corps also moved to that area. I could tell his practice was suffering due to the lower referrals I received from him. 1 year later. He filed bankruptcy and is currently working at a DSO.

If you want to practice in a desirable area ..... just realize that everyone else (including Corps) has the same idea. Go rural or semi-rural.
 
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Another point is that when you have a bank loan for a practice. You can write off the interest, but the PRINCIPAL amount with your loan payments are considered personal income.

Why is the principal of a business loan considered personal income? Is it manipulated because of LLC or S corp?
 
Excellent information @OMSDoc . All good and valid points. I'll add some more points.

When I sold ..... the tax ramifications depended on goodwill vs. assets. Or nontangible (goodwill) vs. tangible (assets). Most sellers want the practice to be mostly goodwill whereas buyers want assets for tax reasons. This is a "bargaining" issue when negotiating with the buyer. Banks want to loan on ASSETS. If a seller plays games on the stock or goodwill issues ..... this could come back to haunt the seller with an IRS audit. The safest way for a buyer is to have the assets of the practice appraised and have this documented. I utilized a Patterson equipment broker who I knew. He did it for no charge. As stated above .... it's all about the tax bomb later for the seller. Buyer wants to be able to take the tax deduction on the assets. It's essentially give and take during the negotiation, but I personally wanted to do it the CORRECT way without worrying about a future tax audit. Yes ... I had to pay a considerable tax bomb the following year. The tax bomb for the seller amounts to price for practice less remaining practice depreciation which is taxed.

I also am not a fan of associates with no business experience buying into large partnerships with stock. The business partners have ALL the leverage and can manipulate the stock, goodwill and assets to their advantage.

ALWAYS have professional representation when buying (or selling) a practice. This includes a tax accountant and a specialized attorney.

Another point is that when you have a bank loan for a practice. You can write off the interest, but the PRINCIPAL amount with your loan payments are considered personal income.

Another story. There was this attractive, growing area where there was just two GPs practicing there. One GP decided to sell his practice to a young dentist. The practice was around 2000 sq ft in a retail area next to a supermarket. The new dentist paid a little over 900K for that practice. NO REAL ESTATE was included. Just a practice. Fast forward 2-3 years ...... a total of approx 8-10 new dentists (including myself) moved to that area. 2 Corps also moved to that area. I could tell his practice was suffering due to the lower referrals I received from him. 1 year later. He filed bankruptcy and is currently working at a DSO.

If you want to practice in a desirable area ..... just realize that everyone else (including Corps) has the same idea. Go rural or semi-rural.
Great post!

When I practiced in Georgia, my dad and I opened a satellite office in a smaller town, and an orthodontist from an even smaller town (approx. 30,000 people) came to the open house. I knew all of the orthodontists in the area, but I did not know him. He told me that he had practiced in Atlanta in a busy suburb and it was a hassle getting in and out of his office due to increased traffic, so his referrals declined and he was miserable.

He told me, "Life is not a dress rehearsal, so I decided to sell up there and come here, and I love it."
 
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Why is the principal of a business loan considered personal income? Is it manipulated because of LLC or S corp?

You will have to discuss it with an accountant. I was a "C" Corp. Something about the fact that the assets you purchased are subject to depreciation (tax write-off). You can't write off the same assets twice (principal payment and depreciation). I could be wrong. Hopefully someone else will chime in.

Same when you sell your practice (assets). The longer you have owned your practice .... the more you have depreciated those assets (tax write -off). Therefore when you sell ..... the gains on your practice as determined by SALE PRICE minus original basis value of your practice (what you spent on building it). You have a net amount. Hopefully positive amount. Then what ever depreciation that is remaining (not deducted for tax purposes) is subtracted from the net proceeds of the sale. You are taxed personally for whatever is left.

Selling a million dollar practice does not mean you get to pocket a million dollars. After broker fees, attorney fees, acct fees, and the resultant tax bomb .... you maybe left with 60-75% of what you sold it for.
 
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Selling a million dollar practice does not mean you get to pocket a million dollars. After broker fees, attorney fees, acct fees, and the resultant tax bomb .... you maybe left with 60-75% of what you sold it for.
I would choose to get an associate or a business partner (with 0 hours for me) as oppose to netting 600-750k from the sale of a $1M practice.

The passive income, if reasonable, even at $5-10k a month hands-off, would make a better financial sense than selling it. It would produce better return than selling the practice and investing that money somewhere else. Assuming the practice value holds over time.


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You will have to discuss it with an accountant. I was a "C" Corp. Something about the fact that the assets you purchased are subject to depreciation (tax write-off). You can't write off the same assets twice (principal payment and depreciation). I could be wrong. Hopefully someone else will chime in.

Same when you sell your practice (assets). The longer you have owned your practice .... the more you have depreciated those assets (tax write -off). Therefore when you sell ..... the gains on your practice as determined by SALE PRICE minus original basis value of your practice (what you spent on building it). You have a net amount. Hopefully positive amount. Then what ever depreciation that is remaining (not deducted for tax purposes) is subtracted from the net proceeds of the sale. You are taxed personally for whatever is left.

Selling a million dollar practice does not mean you get to pocket a million dollars. After broker fees, attorney fees, acct fees, and the resultant tax bomb .... you maybe left with 60-75% of what you sold it for.

From my research of principal amount of a business loan considered as income.

From the link: Is a business loan considered taxable income? | finder.com

Is a business loan considered taxable income?
Not usually. In fact, most loans are generally not considered taxable income because it’s money that you’re paying back. While there are exceptions, those exceptions apply to loans that are different from typical business loans from banks or online lenders.

The main exception is if some or all of your debt is forgiven, the amount that gets forgiven becomes taxable income. So even though you didn’t pay taxes on it when you received the funds, the act of forgiveness changes it from a loan to income.

From the link: Is a loan's principal payment included on the income statement? | AccountingCoach

The principal amount received from the bank is not part of a company's revenues and therefore will not be reported on the company's income statement. Similarly, any repayment of the principal amount will not be an expense and therefore will not be reported on the income statement. The principal payment is recorded as a reduction of the liability Notes Payable or Loans Payable. (Both the receipt of the loan principal amount and the repayment of the loan principal will be reported on the statement of cash flows.) The interest on the loan will be reported as expense on the income statement in the periods when the interest is incurred.

It doesn't make sense to tax principal as income. When you write off depreciation, you decrease (reduce) the principal (tax basis of asset). That affects the capital gains (increases) when you sell (lower principal/tax basis) so you will expect a tax bomb.
 
My asian parents always advice me to marry someone who is not just good at putting on make up and stay home ;)

I don’t know though. I’d rather have a pretty spouse than a working one but not pretty.. lol
why not both? :D
 
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Nice discussion here..
For you docs who’ve worked and owned practices in rural areas, how do you begin?
Say I want to own a practice in a small town but have no idea what it’s like to live there. Do you try associating there first and then look for an office to buy? Did any of you simply pull the trigger on buying?
Also, for specialists, what differences have you noticed between working rural or in a metropolitan area?

I also work and live in Southern CA but am getting a bit tired of it..
On the flip side, I speak fluent Spanish and my wife is Mexican. Thankfully, there is no shortage of Mexican food in the U.S. :) Are there any towns in California where Spanish-speaking dentists could possibly be in demand?
 
Nice discussion here..
For you docs who’ve worked and owned practices in rural areas, how do you begin?
Say I want to own a practice in a small town but have no idea what it’s like to live there. Do you try associating there first and then look for an office to buy? Did any of you simply pull the trigger on buying?
Also, for specialists, what differences have you noticed between working rural or in a metropolitan area?

I also work and live in Southern CA but am getting a bit tired of it..
On the flip side, I speak fluent Spanish and my wife is Mexican. Thankfully, there is no shortage of Mexican food in the U.S. :) Are there any towns in California where Spanish-speaking dentists could possibly be in demand?
Come to Minnesota. There is a large hispanic community in southwestern Minnesota, and there is a great need for dentists there. Buy a snowblower.

Again, you need to decide if you want to associate with someone or start your own.

They key part of moving to a small community (or any community really) is: Will your spouse or significant-other like it there and/or be able to find a job. Figure that out first.
 
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From my research of principal amount of a business loan considered as income.

From the link: Is a business loan considered taxable income? | finder.com

Is a business loan considered taxable income?
Not usually. In fact, most loans are generally not considered taxable income because it’s money that you’re paying back. While there are exceptions, those exceptions apply to loans that are different from typical business loans from banks or online lenders.

The main exception is if some or all of your debt is forgiven, the amount that gets forgiven becomes taxable income. So even though you didn’t pay taxes on it when you received the funds, the act of forgiveness changes it from a loan to income.

From the link: Is a loan's principal payment included on the income statement? | AccountingCoach

The principal amount received from the bank is not part of a company's revenues and therefore will not be reported on the company's income statement. Similarly, any repayment of the principal amount will not be an expense and therefore will not be reported on the income statement. The principal payment is recorded as a reduction of the liability Notes Payable or Loans Payable. (Both the receipt of the loan principal amount and the repayment of the loan principal will be reported on the statement of cash flows.) The interest on the loan will be reported as expense on the income statement in the periods when the interest is incurred.

It doesn't make sense to tax principal as income. When you write off depreciation, you decrease (reduce) the principal (tax basis of asset). That affects the capital gains (increases) when you sell (lower principal/tax basis) so you will expect a tax bomb.
Maybe my acct can clear this up. I'll get back to you on this.
 
Come to Minnesota. There is a large hispanic community in southwestern Minnesota, and there is a great need for dentists there. Buy a snowblower.

Again, you need to decide if you want to associate with someone or start your own.

They key part of moving to a small community (or any community really) is: Will your spouse or significant-other like it there and/or be able to find a job. Figure that out first.

I think Minnesota is a great location. They have one of the highest standards of living, best schools, and lots of wealth. They have a big airport to take you almost anywhere nonstop. People at a rural Midwestern town tends to be very friendly and welcoming. In a town where there is a large Hispanic community, it's even better because they make the best patients. With their 10k lakes, it's probably a fishing mecca. You just have to get past their humid summers and brutal winters. With the financial gains that you will make from less competition and cheaper housing than in CA, you can Snowbird down to Arizona and play golf with "tooth mover." Unfortunately I'll freeze my Asian rear and miss authentic Asian food so I'll have to make do in Pacific NW.
 
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I think Minnesota is a great location. They have one of the highest standards of living, best schools, and lots of wealth. They have a big airport to take you almost anywhere nonstop. People at a rural Midwestern town tends to be very friendly and welcoming. In a town where there is a large Hispanic community, it's even better because they make the best patients. With their 10k lakes, it's probably a fishing mecca. You just have to get past their humid summers and brutal winters. With the financial gains that you will make from less competition and cheaper housing than in CA, you can Snowbird down to Arizona and play golf with "tooth mover." Unfortunately I'll freeze my Asian rear and miss authentic Asian food so I'll have to make do in Pacific NW.
Very kind words...thanks!

Actually, there are only maybe four lakes in southwestern Minnesota...most are in the northern half of the state....something to do with melting and receding glaciers and what not.
 
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Very kind words...thanks!

Actually, there is only maybe four lakes in southwestern Minnesota...most are in the northern half of the state....something to do with melting and receding glaciers and what not.

My bad. My brother was considering moving there many years ago but settled in Colorado. His rear is more resistant to freezing than mine though.
 
I’d love to move out of CA but will have to wait until I’ve been licensed for 5 years.. thats when other states will make it easier for me. For now, I’ll try looking rural. :)
 
I grew up in Alaska. Probably the reason for my propensity towards living and working in rural/ semi-rural areas. Even in Phoenix .... I practiced in the outskirts of the urban area ... the suburbs I guess. N. Scottsdale is unique in that city ordinances mandate separation of homes in certain areas. We have NAOS which stands for Natural Arizona Open Space. I had my home built. It was built on a little over an acre of land. Per NAOS .... 1/4 of the land has to REMAIN natural desert. There are also no Fast food type stores in my area. They are not allowed. Everything has to conform to the natural beauty of the desert. Plenty of horse ranches with horse trails. Point is ...... N. Scottsdale works hard to maintain it's semi-rural culture.

Interestingly .... even in N. Scottsdale .... there is dentist saturation. Many dentists in the area looking to bank in with all the wealthy boomers who live here.
 
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From my research of principal amount of a business loan considered as income.

From the link: Is a business loan considered taxable income? | finder.com

Is a business loan considered taxable income?
Not usually. In fact, most loans are generally not considered taxable income because it’s money that you’re paying back. While there are exceptions, those exceptions apply to loans that are different from typical business loans from banks or online lenders.

The main exception is if some or all of your debt is forgiven, the amount that gets forgiven becomes taxable income. So even though you didn’t pay taxes on it when you received the funds, the act of forgiveness changes it from a loan to income.

From the link: Is a loan's principal payment included on the income statement? | AccountingCoach

The principal amount received from the bank is not part of a company's revenues and therefore will not be reported on the company's income statement. Similarly, any repayment of the principal amount will not be an expense and therefore will not be reported on the income statement. The principal payment is recorded as a reduction of the liability Notes Payable or Loans Payable. (Both the receipt of the loan principal amount and the repayment of the loan principal will be reported on the statement of cash flows.) The interest on the loan will be reported as expense on the income statement in the periods when the interest is incurred.

It doesn't make sense to tax principal as income. When you write off depreciation, you decrease (reduce) the principal (tax basis of asset). That affects the capital gains (increases) when you sell (lower principal/tax basis) so you will expect a tax bomb.

OK. Emailed my tax acct and he responded with this:

"That's correct, when money is borrowed the principal repayment of the debt is not tax deductible. Just the interest charged on it is. And why would it be tax deductible? Borrowing money isn't considered income that you have to pay tax on, it is considered a debt, so why should it be a tax deduction when you pay it back? Additionally if you borrow money through a business and spend it on business expenses ... then those business expenses are tax deductible at the time the money is spent, but you can't take another tax deduction later when you pay that money back. "

Where I am mistaken and you are CORRECT is that the principal amount of the loan is not taxed as personal income, BUTTTTTTT most dentists will use TAXABLE income to make those payments.

My acct is a certified tax acct who represents mostly dentists and MDs. He has been my acct for as long as I have been in practice.
 
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OK. Emailed my tax acct and he responded with this:

"That's correct, when money is borrowed the principal repayment of the debt is not tax deductible. Just the interest charged on it is. And why would it be tax deductible? Borrowing money isn't considered income that you have to pay tax on, it is considered a debt, so why should it be a tax deduction when you pay it back? Additionally if you borrow money through a business and spend it on business expenses ... then those business expenses are tax deductible at the time the money is spent, but you can't take another tax deduction later when you pay that money back. "

Where I am mistaken and you are CORRECT is that the principal amount of the loan is not taxed as personal income, BUTTTTTTT most dentists will use TAXABLE income to make those payments.

My acct is a certified tax acct who represents mostly dentists and MDs. He has been my acct for as long as I have been in practice.

What I like to know is how much do you depreciate your assets to take the maximum deduction yet not depreciate it too much so when you sell it, your tax basis isn't too low to face a tax nuclear bomb.
 
What I like to know is how much do you depreciate your assets to take the maximum deduction yet not depreciate it too much so when you sell it, your tax basis isn't too low to face a tax nuclear bomb.
Not sure. As you know .... there is a depreciation schedule dependent on the asset.
 
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