Opening a multi-provider clinic

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jbomba

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So I'm thinking of trying to open a clinic with the intention of growing it to include multiple therapists, physicians, IOP offerings, etc.

Anyone with experience here that can shed some light on how to get started or what to look out for? I'm in the very early phase of trying to educate myself on how to do this, so forgive my naivety.

Also what's the best way to attract and find therapists? Should I get on insurance panels before trying to find staff?

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I would highly encourage you to keep this thought very much in the back of your mind for now.

You are better off keeping your mental focus on what's in front of you at the moment, e.g. on perfecting the many different components needed to have a thriving and quality solo practice first. Once you have developed these and know how to easily handle the curveballs that private practice will throw at you, then you will have a better idea of whether or not this type of venture is worth pursuing.

Hiring and managing the many different types of people needed to run a full service clinic makes things exponentially more complicated.
 
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I started my private practice with this drive, that pull, that vision of a larger group practice in mind.
Fast forward a few years. Its diminished.
Can't beat having one good employee. No drama, and a system that flows and works. I listen to other docs in Big Box Shops or other group private practices and they are struggling with staff turn over. One place I almost subleased from that was a group practice, they were in disarray because their core front desk person was out sick with something major.

Labor and hiring is a big deal these days. Employees don't grow on trees, and the headache of staff turn over is real.

Head @Orgone and get a solo going first, learn the basics, then expand - if you still want to.
 
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I have a hard time imagining doing something like this. I've seen it done, once, but wow...
 
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I know people who are doing this. First off, it's not as lucrative as you think. Secondly, it's not very passive--you just trade meeting patients for meeting staff to manage them. Third, in general, you need insurance coverage for this, which is very annoying.

One of the ways to build value is to build the business with the eventual goal of exiting. However, the private equity market undervalues physician practices. You can get at MOST 2-5x EBITA. If you have one therapist and one psychiatrist you can MAYBE gross 1M and get a margin of 200k, but this will cost you years of work. So you either pay yourself a 500k salary (300k salary + 200k profit), OR you plow that 200k back in to hire another psychiatrist. If you pay yourself a 500k salary maybe you just dump 200k in index fund and call it a day. At the end of the 5 year period, it's actually not clear at all that the growth rate is higher if you try to grow your own business. The liquidity is certainly way worse. What I've observed is that in these practices staff turnover is high enough to affect earnings, which makes sense: why would a qualified professional work for a fixed low salary where there's no optionality of partnership track and you get all the upsides? There's little value add in large group practices.

Now some online telemedicine groups seem to have figured out how to scale this. Talkiatry apparently now has 400+ psychiatrists. I wonder if these people get their equity or not. Seems like an unprofitable business model.

If you really want to do it, you can do it. Figure out how much insurance reimburses, hire people, market, raise capital, etc Read a text book (I'd recommend the HBR review series on how to start a small business). Hiring a therapist is trivial. Post an ad online and you'll get resumes. If this kind of work conceptually excites you, I would go for it. Definitely not my thing, but to each his own.
 
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It takes a lot of capital to do that. If you want, you should start small. Partner with another psychiatrist and then grow organically. Once you fill, you can hire more. The biggest thing about having therapists and IOP is that you can work collaboratively and make internal referrals.

If you really want to do it, I would encourage you start an LLC or corporation, get a group NPI 2 number, and start paneling with insurances (although depends on the market).

I've been in private practice now for almost two years. I'm getting to the point in my private practice where I've been full for several months and keep getting referrals I cannot see. I have enough patients to meet the threshold for myself in terms of number of hours, number and complexity of cases. I refer my patients to other psychiatrists now. Now I'm thinking that it might be worthwhile to start to expand and hire. There seems to be lots of challenges here though. As the owner of the clinic, it would be my bottom line and reputation. More admin time = unpaid time, less direct patient care, fewer psychotherapy cases most likely. You also have to be a people manager, a completely different skillset and set of administrative and legal challenges in and of itself. Even if I took 30% of patient care, I would probably just about break even or maybe be in the low 5 figures per year in profit for my time.
 
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Btw, you should check out bizbuysell or some other online broker. I saw a psychiatrist trying to sell his practice in this area not that long ago and this seems not uncommon. It's actually much easier to do THAT, then build on THAT if you want to do that sort of thing than starting from scratch.

Of course, then the next question is hey how do I find the money to buy a biz that supposedly is worth 2M. This is a take-home homework assignment question. If you can't figure this out I don't think you should start a business.
 
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It takes a lot of capital to do that. If you want, you should start small. Partner with another psychiatrist and then grow organically. Once you fill, you can hire more. The biggest thing about having therapists and IOP is that you can work collaboratively and make internal referrals.

If you really want to do it, I would encourage you start an LLC or corporation, get a group NPI 2 number, and start paneling with insurances (although depends on the market).

I've been in private practice now for almost two years. I'm getting to the point in my private practice where I've been full for several months and keep getting referrals I cannot see. I have enough patients to meet the threshold for myself in terms of number of hours, number and complexity of cases. I refer my patients to other psychiatrists now. Now I'm thinking that it might be worthwhile to start to expand and hire. There seems to be lots of challenges here though. As the owner of the clinic, it would be my bottom line and reputation. More admin time = unpaid time, less direct patient care, fewer psychotherapy cases most likely. You also have to be a people manager, a completely different skillset and set of administrative and legal challenges in and of itself. Even if I took 30% of patient care, I would probably just about break even or maybe be in the low 5 figures per year in profit for my time.
Plan is to open this clinic with a family member who recently sold another mental health business. He's got the business know how, whereas I would operate as the medical director.
 
Plan is to open this clinic with a family member who recently sold another mental health business. He's got the business know how, whereas I would operate as the medical director.

Unless this is someone you think is talented enough to create an exit in 5 years with an 8 figure number, I don’t think I would do this.

Without significant legal expenses and know-how (loopholes), it is illegal in my state to own a practice with a non-physician. You are already in the hole. Next, someone needs to provide the capital. If this is an equal partnership, loans to get this capital put you further in the hole.

What can this person provide? Hiring staff isn’t hard. It is just a nuisance for most physicians. Marketing just involves hiring a good firm. How much $$ do you want to spend here to ramp up? Who is providing the funds? How is the partner sacrificing to make this work? What will this partner actually do?

There isn’t enough patients at the beginning to hire any other physician. How long will you work for free while your revenue goes to overhead? How many new patients will you be willing to see per day? Most psychiatrists I know want to stop after 2-4 new/day. A partner that only earns a living from growth would prefer you to see 7-12 new/day.

Growth is much slower cash-only. Insurance requires contracts, negotiations, and time. Expect to pay staff and rent for 6+ months before insurance contracts are figured out. Expect to lose $10k/month at the beginning with such a venture. Then each new hire takes time to credential. This further delays possible rewards.

What happens if this partner finds a new lucrative venture or convinces other clinicians to partner? What happens if this doesn’t expand enough? Will the partner take home 50% of net from a 1-4 clinician practice working 5 hours/week while you are putting in 40 hours?

Non-physicians love to try to partner with physicians. We are essentially guaranteed revenue. If your partner is terrible, eventually you can still fill an insurance practice where net is 6 figures to the partner that does nothing. The partner can push downsizing, minimizing expenses, and push you to see more patients. No need to hire more psychiatrists and build them up at a temporary loss. Let’s wait until you are seeing a patient load of 2 physicians. Forget 90833. If you can see 5 99214’s per hour for 8 hours with 0 new patients per day then we can add a psychiatrist in 3-5 years without losing any money. You can do it. Just 5 years. Now that you’ve added 1 physician and moved half your caseload, let’s do it again with multiple new ones/day to add another in a couple years. This is in the partner’s best interests.

Each FT psychiatrist you add could net the practice $300k when full. That’s either 1+ years of losing money then breaking even to eventually build from scratch or with your sweat. That’s $150k to you in a partnership once full.

It could easily take 5 years pushing yourself hard to reach $300k net in year 5. After all, you’ll have loans, high expenses, and partner distributions to cover.

All the while, you can easily make $300k/year employed with no risk year 1. Invest passively well and maybe have saved + appreciation your first $1 million by year 5.

I’m not saying that it isn’t a lucrative goal to build a big practice eventually. I just wouldn’t do this with a non-physician where I’m seeing patients. I’d want to already be making good money and meet this talented non-physician in which I’m essentially helping to maximize billings and oversee clinicians.

Alternatively I’d start small, learn, and do this myself.

The odds that I find the perfect non-physician partner to risk years of minimum income and debt while working incredibly hard (enough to generate $600k/year elsewhere) to exit in 5 years would necessitate a $5 million+ windfall or more. In my state, I haven’t seen or heard of $10+ million practices selling. The highest I’ve seen is a 5 location practice in Austin, TX with 30+ therapists generating $800k/year net asking $6 million. I tried talking to them about $4 million. Owner declined.
 
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Unless this is someone you think is talented enough to create an exit in 5 years with an 8 figure number, I don’t think I would do this.

Without significant legal expenses and know-how (loopholes), it is illegal in my state to own a practice with a non-physician. You are already in the hole. Next, someone needs to provide the capital. If this is an equal partnership, loans to get this capital put you further in the hole.

What can this person provide? Hiring staff isn’t hard. It is just a nuisance for most physicians. Marketing just involves hiring a good firm. How much $$ do you want to spend here to ramp up? Who is providing the funds? How is the partner sacrificing to make this work? What will this partner actually do?

There isn’t enough patients at the beginning to hire any other physician. How long will you work for free while your revenue goes to overhead? How many new patients will you be willing to see per day? Most psychiatrists I know want to stop after 2-4 new/day. A partner that only earns a living from growth would prefer you to see 7-12 new/day.

Growth is much slower cash-only. Insurance requires contracts, negotiations, and time. Expect to pay staff and rent for 6+ months before insurance contracts are figured out. Expect to lose $10k/month at the beginning with such a venture. Then each new hire takes time to credential. This further delays possible rewards.

What happens if this partner finds a new lucrative venture or convinces other clinicians to partner? What happens if this doesn’t expand enough? Will the partner take home 50% of net from a 1-4 clinician practice working 5 hours/week while you are putting in 40 hours?

Non-physicians love to try to partner with physicians. We are essentially guaranteed revenue. If your partner is terrible, eventually you can still fill an insurance practice where net is 6 figures to the partner that does nothing. The partner can push downsizing, minimizing expenses, and push you to see more patients. No need to hire more psychiatrists and build them up at a temporary loss. Let’s wait until you are seeing a patient load of 2 physicians. Forget 90833. If you can see 5 99214’s per hour for 8 hours with 0 new patients per day then we can add a psychiatrist in 3-5 years without losing any money. You can do it. Just 5 years. Now that you’ve added 1 physician and moved half your caseload, let’s do it again with multiple new ones/day to add another in a couple years. This is in the partner’s best interests.

Each FT psychiatrist you add could net the practice $300k when full. That’s either 1+ years of losing money then breaking even to eventually build from scratch or with your sweat. That’s $150k to you in a partnership once full.

It could easily take 5 years pushing yourself hard to reach $300k net in year 5. After all, you’ll have loans, high expenses, and partner distributions to cover.

All the while, you can easily make $300k/year employed with no risk year 1. Invest passively well and maybe have saved + appreciation your first $1 million by year 5.

I’m not saying that it isn’t a lucrative goal to build a big practice eventually. I just wouldn’t do this with a non-physician where I’m seeing patients. I’d want to already be making good money and meet this talented non-physician in which I’m essentially helping to maximize billings and oversee clinicians.

Alternatively I’d start small, learn, and do this myself.

The odds that I find the perfect non-physician partner to risk years of minimum income and debt while working incredibly hard (enough to generate $600k/year elsewhere) to exit in 5 years would necessitate a $5 million+ windfall or more. In my state, I haven’t seen or heard of $10+ million practices selling. The highest I’ve seen is a 5 location practice in Austin, TX with 30+ therapists generating $800k/year net asking $6 million. I tried talking to them about $4 million. Owner declined.
Listen to this guy. He clearly know what he's talking about.

Yeah, I wouldn't partner with a non-physician. Capital is cheap. Business knowhow is a commodity that you can buy by the hour for lower than what a physician can generate. Get a SBA loan and start on your own. Your biggest risk right now is an unfair cap table. Look it up if you don't know what it is.
 
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I started a solo practice about a year and a half ago with the plan of building a group practice of some sort. Made a few missteps along the way but am now beginning to figure it out. I agree with the above posters and especially don’t think it’s wise to bring in a partner. I am the cash cow as you will be. Use that ability to generate revenue to support you during the learning and building phase and don’t make the mistake of undervaluing that. By the end of a year, you might be better at running the business than the partner and really just need admin support that you could hire. I am fortunate as are some others on here that we have a spouse as partner that can do some of the financials so that helps and since we’re already 50/50 it’s not like we had to give up any equity. Also, although I do 90% of the work for the business and she only does about 10, I don’t resent that at all. in fact, I appreciate the ten. Now if it was anyone other than my wife, I’d be pissed.
 
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Non-physicians love to try to partner with physicians. We are essentially guaranteed revenue. If your partner is terrible, eventually you can still fill an insurance practice where net is 6 figures to the partner that does nothing. The partner can push downsizing, minimizing expenses, and push you to see more patients. No need to hire more psychiatrists and build them up at a temporary loss. Let’s wait until you are seeing a patient load of 2 physicians. Forget 90833. If you can see 5 99214’s per hour for 8 hours with 0 new patients per day then we can add a psychiatrist in 3-5 years without losing any money. You can do it. Just 5 years. Now that you’ve added 1 physician and moved half your caseload, let’s do it again with multiple new ones/day to add another in a couple years. This is in the partner’s best interests.
5 * 99214/hr * 8 hours * 5 days per week * 52 weeks a year = $2M with the insurance contract that I've been seeing. That would be 10,400 patient encounters per year which comes out to 19,968 wRVUs. Sounds burnoutogenic.
 
Listen to this guy. He clearly know what he's talking about.

Yeah, I wouldn't partner with a non-physician. Capital is cheap. Business knowhow is a commodity that you can buy by the hour for lower than what a physician can generate. Get a SBA loan and start on your own. Your biggest risk right now is an unfair cap table. Look it up if you don't know what it is.
Agree. The best is to start yourself, build up your reputation, and then hire someone once you get full and have a need for a psychiatrist or therapist in your practice.

I do know of a few group practices where there were a few residents who banded together to start a group practice. Some of them seem to be doing well, but one dissolved.
 
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Agree. The best is to start yourself, build up your reputation, and then hire someone once you get full and have a need for a psychiatrist or therapist in your practice.

I do know of a few group practices where there were a few residents who banded together to start a group practice. Some of them seem to be doing well, but one dissolved.
The longer I practice the more I realize that there is a reason why our specialty has so many more solos and tiny practices. The economy of scale is just not quite there with us vs other specialties. There just aren’t that many large (> 10) single specialty psychiatry groups in PP. Roll up is also not a lucrative exercise. It’s a double edged sword — partners at other large single specialty practices can make a lot and exit — and we can’t and won’t as easily. But you also aren’t at whims of senior partners selling to PE/ large hospitals and similar dynamics.

Telemedicine might change things a bit but I just don’t see why the marketing cost would be so insurmountable for a solo practice vs a national chain. Like what exactly is talkiatry providing that psychology today isn’t? Taking insurance? Lol is that really that hard to take insurance? I guess their hope is eventually they get so many providers that they’d bargain up rates? But then why wouldn’t panels just add other cheaper ones instead. Seems dumb.

I almost think it must be easier to do single specialty roll up of inpatient services. And even then it’s hard. That’s because inpatient psych doesn’t make any money!! Basically facility driven psych services are by definition nonprofits.
 
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The longer I practice the more I realize that there is a reason why our specialty has so many more solos and tiny practices. The economy of scale is just not quite there with us vs other specialties. There just aren’t that many large (> 10) single specialty psychiatry groups in PP. Roll up is also not a lucrative exercise. It’s a double edged sword — partners at other large single specialty practices can make a lot and exit — and we can’t and won’t as easily. But you also aren’t at whims of senior partners selling to PE/ large hospitals and similar dynamics.

Telemedicine might change things a bit but I just don’t see why the marketing cost would be so insurmountable for a solo practice vs a national chain. Like what exactly is talkiatry providing that psychology today isn’t? Taking insurance? Lol is that really that hard to take insurance? I guess their hope is eventually they get so many providers that they’d bargain up rates? But then why wouldn’t panels just add other cheaper ones instead. Seems dumb.

I almost think it must be easier to do single specialty roll up of inpatient services. And even then it’s hard. That’s because inpatient psych doesn’t make any money!! Basically facility driven psych services are by definition nonprofits.

Right overhead is ridiculously low compared to other fields. That's one of the big barriers to entry in other specialities and the reason for instance a surgeon or dermatologist or ophthalmologist or even IM/FM (although something like DPC is more viable in IM/FM) will join a group rather than try to open up their own PP. You're running in the red for a while in other specialities because you have to purchase so much equipment, need more disposable products, may even need to figure out all the things that go into an ambulatory surgery center and need more support staff. Now once you get everything running you can make a ton of money in these specialities owning your own practice but it's a lot more daunting when you can just join a group offering you at/above median salary for your field + production on top of some base RVU.
 
The longer I practice the more I realize that there is a reason why our specialty has so many more solos and tiny practices. The economy of scale is just not quite there with us vs other specialties. There just aren’t that many large (> 10) single specialty psychiatry groups in PP. Roll up is also not a lucrative exercise. It’s a double edged sword — partners at other large single specialty practices can make a lot and exit — and we can’t and won’t as easily. But you also aren’t at whims of senior partners selling to PE/ large hospitals and similar dynamics.

Telemedicine might change things a bit but I just don’t see why the marketing cost would be so insurmountable for a solo practice vs a national chain. Like what exactly is talkiatry providing that psychology today isn’t? Taking insurance? Lol is that really that hard to take insurance? I guess their hope is eventually they get so many providers that they’d bargain up rates? But then why wouldn’t panels just add other cheaper ones instead. Seems dumb.

I almost think it must be easier to do single specialty roll up of inpatient services. And even then it’s hard. That’s because inpatient psych doesn’t make any money!! Basically facility driven psych services are by definition nonprofits.
I definitely agree. In other specialties that are being bought out by PE such as dermatology, you have the physicians who diagnose conditions that have good interrater reliability and also products that they sell which is another revenue generator. For psychiatry, the instrument of intervention is ourselves, our therapeutic alliance, our ability to form safe bases for patients to attach to, and the approach to medications is so different between psychiatrists. Patients are attached to their psychiatrist because there's so much to know about them over time to treat someone. Any dermatologist can look at a mole with a dermatoscope and determine what it is and if not, send for pathology. You don't even have to talk to the patient to make the diagnosis often times!

The benefit of a group practice is leverage with insurance companies to negotiate for higher rates. If you are cash only, this doesn't apply. The benefit of IOP/PHP is that you can charge facility fees which can double your reimbursement. The benefit of residential is that you own equity and appreciation in those properties that you can write off as a business expense, especially the depreciation.

Having a solo boutique practice has been very good for me. I am extremely happy with the autonomy, flexibility, and practicing how I wish. The negative is that I'm in charge of all the small administrative tasks and having to get comfortable with the business of medicine. I've been able to spend more time with family and take more vacation than I would have at an employed job.
 
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Listen to this guy. He clearly know what he's talking about.

Yeah, I wouldn't partner with a non-physician. Capital is cheap. Business knowhow is a commodity that you can buy by the hour for lower than what a physician can generate. Get a SBA loan and start on your own. Your biggest risk right now is an unfair cap table. Look it up if you don't know what it is.
Fwiw the partner is a very trusted family member who just sold a business for an 8 figure pay day. I do trust him and know he has great connections and referral sources. Not sure if this changes things wrt your opinion.
 
Also couldn't this be as simple as getting insurance contracts and then adding providers to work as 1099 and taking a cut of their billings? When I was a resident I moonlighted at a clinic with this set up.

Of several docs I know, they don't want to be bothered to start their own practice. They'd rather just slide into something that's already set up for them. Seems like there's a pool of individuals who are willing to give up 30-40% in exchange for everything else running smoothly. Especially so since insurance reimbursements in my area are quite high, so they can actually do very well.
 
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You could yes but some states don't allow for 1099 for their workers because there are defining criteria for an independent contractor.

You could start with 40% of earnings from new psychiatrists/therapists and they can work up to 30% over a certain number of years if they meet productivity thresholds.

Finances are only one incentive of building up a group practice. I think people in this thread haven't talked about the satisfaction that comes from knowing that you are building up a program and providing a much needed service to the area that you want to build in. Having a group practice means more access to much needed care in that area.

In my area, there is only one or two CAP group practices that aren't part of hospitals/academics and so I would love to create a group clinic that diagnoses and treats the CAP patient population, which includes not only psychiatric care, but also individual therapy, group therapy, family therapy, parent coaching, executive functioning coaching, neuropsychological testing, educational therapists to collaborate with schools, parent workshops for the public, a PHP/IOP program, maybe even occupational/speech therapists or mental health camps (for those with ADHD, autism, etc). Just to be clear, all of these services exist under one roof for one of the CAP clinics in my area (including taking Medicaid and having 2 of their own schools for emotional disturbance/neurodevelopmental disabilities) so it's not even that out there. Even if it was financially even to doing a solo PP, the intellectual compensation and altruistic satisfaction of creating a program like this would be worth it to provide that service to my community.
 
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5 * 99214/hr * 8 hours * 5 days per week * 52 weeks a year = $2M with the insurance contract that I've been seeing. That would be 10,400 patient encounters per year which comes out to 19,968 wRVUs. Sounds burnoutogenic.

Your insurance contracts pay $190 for a 99214? That's impressive. Did you have to negotiate to get it to that point?
 
I've been in 2 different locations now.
2 different insurance companies with default rates paying ~$220/99214 at each location.
They exist in some pockets.
 
I've been in 2 different locations now.
2 different insurance companies with default rates paying ~$220/99214 at each location.
They exist in some pockets.
Man, how do I find these insurances? I'm getting like half that.
 
I've been in 2 different locations now.
2 different insurance companies with default rates paying ~$220/99214 at each location.
They exist in some pockets.

Impressive. I talked to the largest group in my large metro area. They don’t have a single contract that hits $200 for a 99214.
 
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I've been in 2 different locations now.
2 different insurance companies with default rates paying ~$220/99214 at each location.
They exist in some pockets.
West coast has very high rates. I spoke to a clinic where providers were getting 335 for a 214+833 combo.
 
West coast has very high rates. I spoke to a clinic where providers were getting 335 for a 214+833 combo.

I am on the West coast, in a VHCOL. That's not normal.
 
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Your insurance contracts pay $190 for a 99214? That's impressive. Did you have to negotiate to get it to that point?
I did negotiate to get to that point after getting CAP board certification. They initially offered me $106. Most insurances offered me $100-150 for a 99214, not dissimilar to medicare rates but many were lower.

I would imagine if I had a group practice or had more experience in how to negotiate, it would be much higher than $190.
 
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I did negotiate to get to that point after getting CAP board certification. They initially offered me $106. Most insurances offered me $100-150 for a 99214, not dissimilar to medicare rates but many were lower.

I would imagine if I had a group practice or had more experience in how to negotiate, it would be much higher than $190.
What general area of the country?
 
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