Online degree: PsyD vs LMFT vs LCSW

[edavt04]

Hi there,

I am considering a career change from Doctor Of Pharmacy ( left the field and have zero desire of going back) to a therapist/counselor, and trying to figure out what's the best degree to apply for.
I LOVE working on my own time (and can't dedicate any more than 3-6 hours/week to coursework as I have small children), so I am looking for an online degree. I am in no rush to be completing a degree, I am ok going at a slow pace for the next 6-10 years.

My goal would be to have a small private therapist practice, hopefully online. In addition to getting therapist degree online I'd like to get certification in SE (Somatic Experiencing) and IFS (Internal family Systems), which will take time and money, too.
I am also really interesting in possibly writing an evidence-based research book, LONG time from now, when kids are grown and gone.

Given my interests, which route would you recommend me go?

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[AbnormalPsych]

These goals are not possible given your extensive limitations.

 

[WisNeuro]

Specifically, going the online route for a psyd would make it very difficult to become licensed in some states. Also, are you aware of the internship requirement, and postdoc requirement in many states??

 

[deleted343839]

I'm not sure where you got the idea that you could become a licensed mental health professional in 3-6 hours a week, but you should be aware that (1) you really can't, and (2) there is an industry based on selling the lie that you can (or close to it). Online-only training is also not a viable option.

Realistically, the options are to find another arrangement for child care, or wait until your children are older when you can devote more time to your training. Even "part time" study is going to entail much more of a commitment than you are willing to give.

 

[R. Matey]

My goal would be to have a small private therapist practice, hopefully online. In addition to getting therapist degree online I'd like to get certification in SE (Somatic Experiencing) and IFS (Internal family Systems), which will take time and money, too.

These are hotter in the applied world than in the research world. Very little evidence exists for these practices. I suggest doing more research on the field prior to considering a career change.

 

[Sanman]

Kind of curious OP, what gave the perception that you could pursue this successfully part-time and online? Did you get your PharmD online and part-time?

 

[futureapppsy2]

You can’t even really adequately attend to one graduate-level class in 3-6 hours a week, much less practicum, and no halfway decent graduate program is going to let you even try to do that.

 

[Action_Potential]

I find it really interesting/sad that this is the perception of what our academic training entails, for all “therapists”.

 

[edavt04]

These goals are not possible given your extensive limitations.

Specifically, going the online route for a psyd would make it very difficult to become licensed in some states. Also, are you aware of the internship requirement, and postdoc requirement in many states??

i JUST started my research 2 days ago, and mostly looked at online schools and requirements for online PsyD. From reading a bit on this forum I am realizing that there's a lot more tot it. Like the internships, and the need to match and possibly move away. So thanks for pointing this out. Maybe LSCW or LMFT would be a better fit for my needs.

 

[edavt04]

I find it really interesting/sad that this is the perception of what our academic training entails, for all “therapists”.

I am sorry a part of you got triggered with my question. I JUST started my research into this, it was not my intention to "belittle" PsyD world

 

[edavt04]

You can’t even really adequately attend to one graduate-level class in 3-6 hours a week, much less practicum, and no halfway decent graduate program is going to let you even try to do that.

I see. I am glad I asked as you guys can give me some reality I really have no preference what type of therapist to become to be able to practice SE and IFS, so maybe LSCW and LMFT would be a better route for me

 

[edavt04]

Kind of curious OP, what gave the perception that you could pursue this successfully part-time and online? Did you get your PharmD online and part-time?

Good question. I looked at PsyD programs online, and Capella and Walden Universities, as well as AZ state were offering online degrees. I did not look to closely if it can be done "as-part-time'as-I'd-like-it-to-be" though, that's why I posted here to get some reality

 

[edavt04]

These are hotter in the applied world than in the research world. Very little evidence exists for these practices. I suggest doing more research on the field prior to considering a career change.

I have tried ALL kinds of therapies in the past 5 years to work on my childhood trauma, and none worked for me like SE and IFS. I have not conducted any primary research into the effectiveness of these therapies but rather just read books of different trauma researchers (Bessel Van Der Kolk, etc).

 

[WisNeuro]

At least in terms of SE therapy, there's no real evidence basis for that one, I don't know much about IFS. I'd suggest getting broad training in therapy, particularly with methodologies with proven track records.

 

[edavt04]

Specifically, going the online route for a psyd would make it very difficult to become licensed in some states. Also, are you aware of the internship requirement, and postdoc requirement in many states??

Thank you. I did not realize that! I live in CA, so I am assuming CA is gonna make it hard for me

 

[edavt04]

I'm not sure where you got the idea that you could become a licensed mental health professional in 3-6 hours a week, but you should be aware that (1) you really can't, and (2) there is an industry based on selling the lie that you can (or close to it). Online-only training is also not a viable option.

Realistically, the options are to find another arrangement for child care, or wait until your children are older when you can devote more time to your training. Even "part time" study is going to entail much more of a commitment than you are willing to give.

Thank you.
I guess because I am in no rush, and can spend 8-10 years studying part-time, I thought there might be programs out there that could just let me study at my own pace. But maybe not!
I realized that online only will work only while I am doing the coursework, and that afterwards I'll need to put in several thousands of hours of work under supervision, which I am ok with, given that kids will be older. But what I am getting form your reply is that there are no mental health worker online degrees out there that let you go at your own pace... Thanks for your reply

 

[cara susanna]

I have tried ALL kinds of therapies in the past 5 years to work on my childhood trauma, and none worked for me like SE and IFS. I have not conducted any primary research into the effectiveness of these therapies but rather just read books of different trauma researchers (Bessel Van Der Kolk, etc).

Unfortunately van der Kolk has kind of gone off of the rails lately. He's done a lot of great work for the field but lately has been promoting junk therapies while dismissing evidence-based therapies.

 

[PsyDr]

A typical course load for a psyd is 12-16hrs/week. This excludes clinical rotations at 20hrs+/week. The median length of training is 5-7 years. Plus a mandatory one year post doc of 2000hrs.

Essentially you are offering to take 50% of the course load, none of the clinical rotations, exclude the internship,a and exclude the required post doc. Would you say a 20% increase in how length of school can make up for this?

Your question is ill informed at best, insulting and dangerous at worst. Do NOT believe any salesmen who are offering you a short cut.

 

[edavt04]

At least in terms of SE therapy, there's no real evidence basis for that one, I don't know much about IFS. I'd suggest getting broad training in therapy, particularly with methodologies with proven track records.

Thank you for your suggestion. Where would you suggest I get broad training in therapy? In "Body keeps the score" Van Der Kolk reviewed all the evidence-based therapies, and SE, IFS, EMDR, and some others were on that list.
SE was a lifechanger for me, and I genuinely believe talk therapy needs to be combined with bodywork for optimum results.

 

[edavt04]

Unfortunately van der Kolk has kind of gone off of the rails lately. He's done a lot of great work for the field but lately has been promoting junk therapies while dismissing evidence-based therapies.

what are evidence-based therapies?

 

[edavt04]

A typical course load for a psyd is 12-16hrs/week. This excludes clinical rotations at 20hrs+/week. The median length of training is 5-7 years. Plus a mandatory one year post doc of 2000hrs.

Essentially you are offering to take 50% of the course load, none of the clinical rotations, exclude the internship,a and exclude the required post doc. Would you say a 20% increase in how length of school can make up for this?

Your question is ill informed at best, insulting and dangerous at worst. Do NOT believe any salesmen who are offering you a short cut.

What a clear reply! Thanks for breaking it down for me. I can see now that this is not doable. I am glad that I asked, but I can see how so many of PsyD got triggered with my question. I get that. I had some crazy questions from "ignorant" people with regards to PharmD degree, so I hear you! Again, apologies for my ignorance

How about online LMFT or LCSW? Do you know anything about these?

 

[PsyDr]

What a clear reply! Thanks for breaking it down for me. I can see now that this is not doable. I am glad that I asked, but I can see how so many of PsyD got triggered with my question. I get that. I had some crazy questions from "ignorant" people with regards to PharmD degree, so I hear you! Again, apologies for my ignorance

How about online LMFT or LCSW? Do you know anything about these?

I don’t know. I’m not an LMFT or an LCSW.

I would HIGHLY encourage you to avoid this course of action. There are many unethical programs that say things like, “...may lead to licensure”. If we could have all gone to school at home, part time while preserving our incomes, we would have. If something is too good to be true, it is.

 

[WisNeuro]

Thank you for your suggestion. Where would you suggest I get broad training in therapy? In "Body keeps the score" Van Der Kolk reviewed all the evidence-based therapies, and SE, IFS, EMDR, and some others were on that list.
SE was a lifechanger for me, and I genuinely believe talk therapy needs to be combined with bodywork for optimum results.

Broad training would occur in the span of a reputable training program, depend on which route you'd take, can't be more specific unless we know more specifics. SE probably works somewhat due to some interoceptive exposure, along with general processing of the trauma, most of it is simply filler that uses pseudoscientific jargon. EMDR is the same thing, the eye movements don't do anything, the exposure does.

 

[edavt04]

Broad training would occur in the span of a reputable training program, depend on which route you'd take, can't be more specific unless we know more specifics. SE probably works somewhat due to some interoceptive exposure, along with general processing of the trauma, most of it is simply filler that uses pseudoscientific jargon. EMDR is the same thing, the eye movements don't do anything, the exposure does.

I am curious to know what are (currently) considered evidence-based therapies in the Pscyh world. It seems like you've done lots of research into this

 

[MAClinician]

@futureapppsy2 @AcronymAllergy maybe we should just rename the “Doctoral Applicants please read first” thread to “How to become a licensed clinician” and throw in banners, flashing lights/arrows, “start here, do not pass Go do not collect $200” buttons so all the newbies can’t possibly miss the links to these previously asked questions. And maybe add the links to a few of the more recent discussions while renovating the sticky thread.

 

[cara susanna]

what are evidence-based therapies?

Evidence-based therapies are therapies that have been demonstrated a certain level of research support (e.g., clinical trials conducted by independent research teams). Part of completing a doctorate in clinical psych is learning how to evaluate not just the research behind certain therapies, but the quality of that research.

For PTSD and trauma treatment, prolonged exposure and cognitive processing therapy are consider evidence-based treatments. EMDR is, too, but that is more controversial since--as WisNeuro pointed out--evidence also suggests EMDR works due to the exposure component and not its proposed mechanism of action.

I think that working somatic experiences into trauma work makes a lot of sense, but treatments focusing on that alone don't have good support. I also don't know why people think our available PTSD evidence-based therapies don't do this, a lot of PE is learning to cope with your physiological sensations that occur when you think about or encounter reminders of the trauma (I know that you're new to this so I'm not picking on you specifically). Even CPT would involve some level of this because, although it's a cognitive intervention, part of the treatment is encouraging people to feel their natural emotions. As a trauma person myself, I think that the field tends to embrace what I describe as "floofiness" (like, warm and fuzzy approaches that look and sound nice but aren't actually effective) and that's a real shame because we have some really great treatments available. Unfortunately a lot of practitioners have very negative beliefs about our actually effective therapies for PTSD and perpetuate the myths about them.

 

[WisNeuro]

I am curious to know what are (currently) considered evidence-based therapies in the Pscyh world. It seems like you've done lots of research into this

Well, most of us from reputable programs are trained in multiple modalities, and spend a lot of didactic time reading into the efficacy research of these methodologies. Some of us were fortunate enough to participate in RCTs for some treatments. As for what is an evidence based therapy, there are many within the CBT, third wave, and psychodynamic frameworks. It would depend on what we're treating.

 

[psych.meout]

I can't speak as much to

Thank you.
I guess because I am in no rush, and can spend 8-10 years studying part-time, I thought there might be programs out there that could just let me study at my own pace. But maybe not!
I realized that online only will work only while I am doing the coursework, and that afterwards I'll need to put in several thousands of hours of work under supervision, which I am ok with, given that kids will be older. But what I am getting form your reply is that there are no mental health worker online degrees out there that let you go at your own pace... Thanks for your reply

Most doctoral programs across disciplines place a time-limit on how long you can be in the program before you get kicked out. Moreover, it's not the case that you can do the coursework first and then do the clinical training afterwards. It's meant to be concurrent because the didactic and experiential training are meant to synergize.

 

[futureapppsy2]

I can't speak as much to

Most doctoral programs across disciplines place a time-limit on how long you can be in the program before you get kicked out. Moreover, it's not the case that you can do the coursework first and then do the clinical training afterwards. It's meant to be concurrent because the didactic and experiential training are meant to synergize.

Masters programs also have time limits, and honestly, no reputable one would admit someone who said they could only spend 3-6 hours a week on it, nor would they likely do well or complete the program.

 

[WisNeuro]

Masters programs also have time limits, and honestly, no reputable one would admit someone who said they could only spend 3-6 hours a week on it, nor would they likely do well or complete the program.

I think I spent 3-6 hours a week simply reading and responding to emails in grad school.

 

[futureapppsy2]

I think I spent 3-6 hours a week simply reading and responding to emails in grad school.

Lecture alone is usually 2.5-3 for one course.

 

[WisNeuro]

Lecture alone is usually 2.5-3 for one course.

Yeah, most of our grad courses were 3 hours twice a week.

 

[foreverbull]

Hi there,

I am considering a career change from Doctor Of Pharmacy ( left the field and have zero desire of going back) to a therapist/counselor, and trying to figure out what's the best degree to apply for.
I LOVE working on my own time (and can't dedicate any more than 3-6 hours/week to coursework as I have small children), so I am looking for an online degree. I am in no rush to be completing a degree, I am ok going at a slow pace for the next 6-10 years.

My goal would be to have a small private therapist practice, hopefully online. In addition to getting therapist degree online I'd like to get certification in SE (Somatic Experiencing) and IFS (Internal family Systems), which will take time and money, too.
I am also really interesting in possibly writing an evidence-based research book, LONG time from now, when kids are grown and gone.

Given my interests, which route would you recommend me go?

Hi OP. As you've seen here, many folks feel strongly about online programs altogether when it comes to therapy training.
To summarize --

Online master's programs:
-typically require students to find their own practicum sites with variable training from one's supervisor on site
-are usually not accredited by CACREP or any other accrediting body
-do not encourage close mentorships between faculty and students or close supervision
-admit everyone under the sun, including people who should not ever practice therapy because they may do harm to others
-graduate students who may not be license-ready (each state has exams and hours requirements for licensure).
-graduate students who may not be very employable because of the poor reputation of the online program

In short, graduate school for a therapy track isn't for everyone who wants to go, but for people who can put in the time/energy, have natural ability, are self-aware and open to feedback, have high motivation/drive, good boundaries with others, are critical thinkers, and are fast learners. Online programs shortcut all of these requirements to encourage everyone to pursue these tracks, which could introduce a lot of problems in our field, including salary deflation, loss of respect in our field by other fields, etc.

If you do not have time to attend a graduate program and do the work in the program as is, this probably isn't the best time for you to attend graduate school for therapy-related fields.

If you do decide to pursue an MFT or LCSW in CA, I would STRONGLY suggest attending a reputable, in-person program that is CACREP-accredited. CA is HIGHLY saturated with therapists at the master's level (I speak to you as a fellow CA resident), and many people apply for jobs here--they are EXTREMELY competitive, even for folks with doctorates from reputable institutions. If you get an online degree from X Online University, your application is more likely to be thrown out. I know you are wanting private practice, but you may have to work a few years prior to PP to save up for business costs and learn the ropes of how to go into PP.

 

[Mindfulpsych22]

RE: MFT and LCSW programs, even on-line programs will require you to devote more time than you have said you are willing to give. These programs also have a “time limit” on how long you have to finish the program and often do not allow you to defer any clinical practicums at all for years into the program and clinical practica often have to be done concurrently with coursework and take up a significant amount of time (usually about 20 hours per week).

I wouldn't consider on-line training for a clinical degree for the reasons Foreverbull gave. Beware that admissions staff at these predatory on-line schools will say “yes, of course you can” to all kinds of “arrangements” you ask about because their job is to get you enrolled. They also may play down the negative consequences of getting a degree at their school compared to a traditional program or make finding your own practica placements much easier than it is. Once you are in the program, your faculty or administration may then not allow these “special arrangements" down the road and you will be left high and dry, often having already shelled out money for some of the coursework.

 

[beginner2011]

@edavt04
I'm glad to see other folks have provided feedback regarding training. One thing I'll add is regarding SE. It sounds like you have had a very positive experience with a therapist providing psychotherapy using SE to inform your work together. That's really fantastic and a testament to the effort you've put in to recovering from challenges in your life.

I did a quick review of the literature out of my own curiosity, and it does appear that there is some evidence that SE, on average, may reduce PTSD symptoms. Compared to receiving no treatment, those who received SE experienced a significant reduction in PTSD symptoms up to about 15 weeks after completing treatment (source). One thing to be aware of is that there are other treatments that have been rigorously tested that appear to have larger effects, and there is also substantial evidence that those benefits last for a longer time (source). In fact, my cursory read of the research suggests that the reduction in PTSD symptoms for patients who received SE is only about 1/3 to 1/2 as large as the effect of other treatments that have received more research attention (specifically, Prolonged Exposure Therapy (PE) and Cognitive Processing Therapy (CPT)). If at some point in the future you think it might be beneficial to continue to work on your PTSD symptoms, I'd highly encourage you to seek out a therapist who has training in PE or CPT.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

I used to teach in a master's program that prepared students for licensure. These programs are all 2 years long if full time. However, there were always students that took 1-2 classes per semester. Every single student I spoke with regretted their decision in hindsight.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

I have tried ALL kinds of therapies in the past 5 years to work on my childhood trauma, and none worked for me like SE and IFS. I have not conducted any primary research into the effectiveness of these therapies but rather just read books of different trauma researchers (Bessel Van Der Kolk, etc).

Any decent program should, hopefully, teach students that anecdotal evidence (one's personal experience) is extremely biased evidence. This is why modern day psychologists rely on empirical evidence, or data from controlled studies.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

bodywork

In the field, this word would fall into the term psychobabble. Check out either the full article or at least the checklist at the end of the file if you are interested more in pseudoscientific therapies or overly hyped therapies.

https://melissainstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Don.HOW-TO-SPOTacceptedversionnovember13.pdf

 

[chicandtoughness]

Thank you.
I guess because I am in no rush, and can spend 8-10 years studying part-time, I thought there might be programs out there that could just let me study at my own pace. But maybe not!

You can attend several reputable masters programs (MSW, Masters in Counseling, MFT) on a part time basis. A lot of these programs recognize that therapy might be a second career for folks who have other obligations. But I would urge you to do it in-person and not online. You're going to be doing therapy in person (for the most part... COVID is an extenuating circumstance), so why wouldn't you get trained in person? There are so many things going on non-verbally in the room, and you will simply not get that practice via Zoom/Skype/whatever.