One school only placed 91.91% of grads into residency

[AnatomyGrey12]

Any you can do more than just practice medicine with a DO degree. There is consulting, MCAT prep, tutoring, drug reps, the list goes on and on.

This is literally the dumbest statement in this thread. If people wanted to do these careers then 99% of the time they wouldn’t have gone to medical school. Going to medical school and then ending up doing any of these is a horrific outcome.

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[Goro]

Any you can do more than just practice medicine with a DO degree. There is consulting, MCAT prep, tutoring, drug reps, the list goes on and on.

One does NOT go to med school and spend some $300K+ to end up being an MCAT tutor or sales rep. I believe that there is an implied contract that the school has an obligation to help you get into residency, and a 92% placement is not only gawd-awful, it's immoral.

I am enjoying seeing the crowd sourcing trying to figure out who the offending schools are. If the schools aren't going to be up front about it, we here have not only the right, but also an obligation to rat them out and warn future SDNers.

And to reiterate:

• the sky is not falling
• the residency crunch is of concern
• most schools have very good placement rates
• schools with these terrible placement rates will first get put on probation
• if these schools don't clean up their messes, they will be sanctioned. COCA is not 100% asleep on the job. I have heard that they raked LMU over the coals over their planned branch campus, and they once sanctioned us for something different. I can't divulge any more than that, but we fixed the problem ASAP.
• students with red flags are most at risk.
• The best solution to this is to get into the upper echelons of AOA and put a stop to the mindless expansion. This is your profession, after all.

 

[Wjldenver]

I totally agree with this statement...

• The best solution to this is to get into the upper echelons of AOA and put a stop to the mindless expansion. This is your profession, after all.

When you all graduate, do not run away from the COCA & AOA, work to get into leadership positions and fix the problem. But while we're on the topic. Here is a legal disclaimer Western University has under their match statistics...

Completion of a program of study does not guarantee placement into a residency program, future employment, licensure or credentialing.

WesternU | Western University of Health Sciences.

Are they getting ready for 2020 or what?

 

[TattedMed]

I totally agree with this statement...

• The best solution to this is to get into the upper echelons of AOA and put a stop to the mindless expansion. This is your profession, after all.

When you all graduate, do not run away from the COCA & AOA, work to get into leadership positions and fix the problem. But while we're on the topic. Here is a legal disclaimer Western University has under their match statistics...

Completion of a program of study does not guarantee placement into a residency program, future employment, licensure or credentialing.

WesternU | Western University of Health Sciences.

Are they getting ready for 2020 or what?

I'd be surprised if every school in the country doesn't have a version of this same thing in their SHB

But, like others have said, you can't expect to drag your nuts for 4 years and expect to place into anything mildly competitive...

 

[Stagg737]

I can't believe that people are still salty about the prospect of a new for-profit DO school. It's an undeniable fact that RVUCOM has blown most other schools out of the water when it comes to match list quality and boards preparation.

Bankers' profit incentives don't necessarily conflict with public interest -- and they certainly don't in this case. There is a shortage of physicians in rural, low-income areas of the United States. "Oh, but they're in it for the money!" Who cares? The reason they'll be making money is that their proposed institution fulfills a demand.

Just because one school did well with it doesn't mean everyone else should be allowed to do it without significant monitoring. Also, expanding the number of medical schools does nothing without expanding the number of residency positions, and the rate of med school expansion is exceeding residency expansion for now, which is the problem.

"Osteopathist" is a real word, and it means the same thing as "osteopath."

The point of his foot pain example was obviously to show that DOs have a humanistic approach to medicine -- i.e., that they consider social well-being.

He may not be a physician, but he has a business degree from Harvard. He's probably not a total buffoon. Also, keep in mind that he's strictly in charge of the school's finances, not the academic curriculum or clinical research. Why give him flak?

Just because he went to Harvard, doesn't mean he's qualified to talk about medicine, especially since he studied a completely unrelated field. That's one of the worst appeals to authority I've ever heard. Judging by his comments, I'd say he has no idea what he's talking about and MNCOM should reel him in before he says something even dumber.

Nearly Every practicing physican would oppose residency expansion. We don’t need more physicians. We need better incentive for rural jobs that is both money based and time based.

For example, if west virginia offer me a job that is half a year and 100k more than a cali job, I’ll take the west virgina job in a heart beat.

For some that would work, but some people are so dead set on location that they'd rather take a five-figure job in a desirable location than a half mil salary in a more rural area. I agree more incentives would help, but they can only help so much.

You technically can practice without a residency in 1 state. They are called Assistant Physicians or something like that. Missouri I think.

I could see this becoming a very real avenue for states in the future, especially since we "Have a doctor shortage".

Then its only 4 years to become a physician vs 7. I think that would appeal to a lot of people.

I don't think you understand what an AP is. This is meant to be a 1-2 year contract for those who did not match to work under a supervising physician and gain more clinical experience so they can enter the match. It's essentially working as a PA for a year or two in order to build up your resume. It is not and never was meant to be an alternative career after medical school. These individuals cannot practice independently and do not have the same practice rights as physicians in Missouri. If you want to practice independently as a physician, you must do a minimum of 1 year of post-grad training in every state now. Additionally, these positions are only available in very rural areas, so if you ever wanted to practice in or near a metro area, you could not.

I also don't think it's appropriate for someone whose education ended at the fourth year of medical school to be seeing patients without supervision, but that's a separate discussion.

 

[W19]

Med students should accept the 'fact' that becoming a FM/IM doc is not the end of world... You are still part of one of the most exclusive professions in the US, and most importantly, you will earn a good salary.

 

[libertyyne]

Correct me If I am wrong, but placing into a pgy 1 only position is also not optimal considering if you are unable to secure another residency year you will be unable to obtain licences. So if you were unable to get a position the first time around, and dont secure a position after pgy1 you are still in a world of hurt. You cant sit for board cert even in FM and you cant get insurance coverage or a job with a hospital system. 80% seems like an unacceptable number if 10% are going to dead end pgy1 positions.

 

[W19]

Correct me If I am wrong, but placing into a pgy 1 only position is also not optimal considering if you are unable to secure another residency year you will be unable to obtain licences. So if you were unable to get a position the first time around, and dont secure a position after pgy1 you are still in a world of hurt. You cant sit for board cert even in FM and you cant get insurance coverage or a job with a hospital system. 80% seems like an unacceptable number if 10% are going to dead end pgy1 positions.

You can obtain a license in almost all US states as a DO (about 30 US states for US MD) after PGY1... You still can make the $$$. My GP friend is making ~200k/year, though he is working in a rural area. He told me has gotten offers in suburbia for 130k-140k, but he has chosen to make more $$$ for now until he starts raising a family.

 

[libertyyne]

You can obtain a license in almost all US states as a DO (about 30 US states for US MD) after PGY1... You still can make the $$$. My GP friend is making ~200k/year, though he is working in a rural area. He told me has gotten offers in suburbia for 130k-140k, but he has chosen to make more $$$ for now until he starts raising a family.

It is my understanding that board certification is not possible and malpractice insurance is hard to come by, and patient insurers may not pay you. also finding a job can be difficult. But I dont know the realities of being a pgy1 only. I dont think it is generally lucrative , because why would anyone go through a 3 year fp residency otherwise?

 

[W19]

It is my understanding that board certification is not possible and malpractice insurance is hard to come by, and patient insurers may not pay you. also finding a job can be difficult. But I dont know the realities of being a pgy1 only. Because if it was soo lucrative wtf would anyone complete a 3 year residency in fp.

Probably... But you can work for the states or the US government. You can open a cash only practice; a few GP in south FL do that.

140k is not that lucrative when FM doc can make double...

 

[libertyyne]

Probably... But you can work for the states or the US government. You can open a cash only practice; a few GP in south FL do that.

140k is not that lucrative when FM doc can make double...

Practicing after one year of residency: Is it feasible? Should it be?
Here is an interesting take on this.

 

[W19]

Practicing after one year of residency: Is it feasible? Should it be?
Here is an interesting take on this.

I did not read the whole thing, but I agree with the overall sentiment of the first few paragraphs. My GP friend was trained in PR and he told me they mostly use GP for primary care outpatient, ER and IM for inpatient... No freaking midlevels.

GP should be able to practice freely in all US states... If insurance companies have no issues paneling NP/PA, why can't GP have the same privilege?

 

[Stagg737]

It is my understanding that board certification is not possible and malpractice insurance is hard to come by, and patient insurers may not pay you. also finding a job can be difficult. But I dont know the realities of being a pgy1 only. I dont think it is generally lucrative , because why would anyone go through a 3 year fp residency otherwise?

As W19 mentioned, in most states it's actually easier to get licensed than people think. The formula is basically: pass Step/Level 3 + complete X years of PGY that the state requries + pass background check/application = licensure. Attaining malpractice also isn't that big of an issue. Some places might not insure you, but I think you'd mostly just have to pay higher rates. The biggest issues are reimbursement and obtaining employment, as some insurance companies won't pay without full residency training and the same goes for employment. I'm not sure if you can be board certified without completing residency, but it would certainly be more difficult. That would also impact your career as some hospitals won't hire non-board certified physicians and it can impact your reimbursement (board certified docs typically get reimbursed at higher rates and some plans may not cover charges from non-board certified docs).

All that being said, I still don't think it would be a total disaster in terms of career. Residents moonlight outside their home institutions and unsupervised all the time. Many have to pay for their own license when they do this, but in many cases it's essentially the same thing as if someone with only a PGY-1 year were covering those shifts. You could look into locums positions for GP positions or contract to cover call shifts. I'm sure there are also plenty of rural/severely understaffed places that would be willing to hire these docs (at a lower rate) as well. So yes, it would drastically impact a physicians career trajectory to only finish an internship and not complete a full residency, but it's not the kiss of death like not matching at all would be.

 

[sab3156]

Lol, how you gonna tutor something you didn't do well on most likely?

Damn.

 

[libertyyne]

As W19 mentioned, in most states it's actually easier to get licensed than people think. The formula is basically: pass Step/Level 3 + complete X years of PGY that the state requries + pass background check/application = licensure. Attaining malpractice also isn't that big of an issue. Some places might not insure you, but I think you'd mostly just have to pay higher rates. The biggest issues are reimbursement and obtaining employment, as some insurance companies won't pay without full residency training and the same goes for employment. I'm not sure if you can be board certified without completing residency, but it would certainly be more difficult. That would also impact your career as some hospitals won't hire non-board certified physicians and it can impact your reimbursement (board certified docs typically get reimbursed at higher rates and some plans may not cover charges from non-board certified docs).

All that being said, I still don't think it would be a total disaster in terms of career. Residents moonlight outside their home institutions and unsupervised all the time. Many have to pay for their own license when they do this, but in many cases it's essentially the same thing as if someone with only a PGY-1 year were covering those shifts. You could look into locums positions for GP positions or contract to cover call shifts. I'm sure there are also plenty of rural/severely understaffed places that would be willing to hire these docs (at a lower rate) as well. So yes, it would drastically impact a physicians career trajectory to only finish an internship and not complete a full residency, but it's not the kiss of death like not matching at all would be.

All I am saying that if I started medical school and there was a 1/5 chance that I would end up in a dead end pgy-1 fp position with no chance for completing a residency. I would personally have to think really hard if it was even worth it. 82% is the average which means there are schools below that probably down to 60% match to make up for the one's with 100% match.

 

[Stagg737]

All I am saying that if I started medical school and there was a 1/5 chance that I would end up in a dead end pgy-1 fp position with no chance for completing a residency. I would personally have to think really hard if it was even worth it. 82% is the average which means there are schools below that probably down to 60% match to make up for the one's with 100% match.

Agree for sure. But placement rates for DOs are still over 98% and overall match rates are still much better than 82%. While rates may drop a bit after the merger, there are still plenty on the AOA side which haven't transferred over yet. Plus it's not like most of these people won't be getting a residency spot or will be unable to finish residency. If things were as bad as you described like at a lot of Carib schools then I'd agree, but they're not. We also have no idea what the future is going to look like yet, but for now my advice to incoming students would be basically the same as it has been.

 

[Medic741]

The poor IMG’s...

 

[radkat101]

The poor IMG’s...

IMGs actually did better this year than last year. Prior AOA programs seem happy to accept them.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

IMGs actually did better this year than last year. Prior AOA programs seem happy to accept them.

I can't say I blame them. You really going to go for a DO who failed boards with repeat years over an IMG/FMG who never failed anything? I don't see the gain in for say a community FM program that really doesn't care about prestige at all.

 

[UTsksk]

IMGs actually did better this year than last year. Prior AOA programs seem happy to accept them.

I interviewed at 1 prior AOA program and all the other applicants I was with were IMG/FMG. Only saw 2 or 3 IMGs total with my 10 other ACGME interviews.

 

[Meekor]

I interviewed at 1 prior AOA program and all the other applicants I was with were IMG/FMG. Only saw 2 or 3 IMGs total with my 10 other ACGME interviews.

Same here. Only 3-4/20 were DO or us MD

 

[Dr.Bruh]

Same here. Only 3-4/20 were DO or us MD

Isn’t this likely bc DOs aren’t going to those places anyway historically. President of the AOA came to our school and said something like a massive amount of AOA programs go unfilled every year simply bc DOs aren’t applying to them. Obviously, you would expect IMGs to fill those spots. It’s not necessarily PDs taking IMGs over DOs but rather IMGs now able to apply for the spots that DOs weren’t applying for and letting go unfilled anyway.

 

[Meekor]

Isn’t this likely bc DOs aren’t going to those places anyway historically. President of the AOA came to our school and said something like a massive amount of AOA programs go unfilled every year simply bc DOs aren’t applying to them. Obviously, you would expect IMGs to fill those spots. It’s not necessarily PDs taking IMGs over DOs but rather IMGs now able to apply for the spots that DOs weren’t applying for and letting go unfilled anyway.

My experience was at a general surgery program though.... I didn’t realize there were so many gen surg spots open every year. Would’ve just scrambled into a spot if that was the case and saved myself buttloads of money.

 

[libertyyne]

Isn’t this likely bc DOs aren’t going to those places anyway historically. President of the AOA came to our school and said something like a massive amount of AOA programs go unfilled every year simply bc DOs aren’t applying to them. Obviously, you would expect IMGs to fill those spots. It’s not necessarily PDs taking IMGs over DOs but rather IMGs now able to apply for the spots that DOs weren’t applying for and letting go unfilled anyway.

There is also a chance that the ones that haven't been filling won't meet criteria for conversion into acgme since these were probably low volume places which didn't provide enough exposure for meeting stricter accreditation standards.

 

[radkat101]

Isn’t this likely bc DOs aren’t going to those places anyway historically. President of the AOA came to our school and said something like a massive amount of AOA programs go unfilled every year simply bc DOs aren’t applying to them. Obviously, you would expect IMGs to fill those spots. It’s not necessarily PDs taking IMGs over DOs but rather IMGs now able to apply for the spots that DOs weren’t applying for and letting go unfilled anyway.

I interviewed at an ex-aoa EM program this year and out of 10 of us, only 3 were DO. As far as I know the program has never scrambled anyone and EM isn’t exactly hurting for applicants. Plus, even if those DO programs hadn’t filled historically, they would at least be open for unmatched DOs to grab. This will eventually lead to lower placement rates and less students getting any kind of residency.

 

[Solodyn]

I can't say I blame them. You really going to go for a DO who failed boards with repeat years over an IMG/FMG who never failed anything? I don't see the gain in for say a community FM program that really doesn't care about prestige at all.

Don't forget that New ACGME/Ex-AOA programs are also under the pressure to take residents who will pass the board. Struggling DOs will be an accreditation risk to the residency. The ACGME looks at the past 5 year average of first time Board Pass rate. Therefore a stellar Step on an IMG will be more attractive than DOs with failing history.

Ultimately, the Borderline DOs, or "the one who graduated last" will be the first to go on the chopping block as the result of the merger.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Its would be hilarious (of course unlikely) if that school had like 10 people taking research years driving down the placement only to end up in insanely competitive glass ceiling breaking programs that all of you are fawning over in next years match list thread lol.

 

[libertyyne]

Its would be hilarious (of course unlikely) if that school had like 10 people taking research years driving down the placement only to end up in insanely competitive glass ceiling breaking programs that all of you are fawning over in next years match list thread lol.

you dont graduate if you are taking a research year, you get added to the next year, thus they would not have been included in the denominator for placements.

 

[el_duderino]

Its would be hilarious (of course unlikely) if that school had like 10 people taking research years driving down the placement only to end up in insanely competitive glass ceiling breaking programs that all of you are fawning over in next years match list thread lol.

Yeah, those people aren't counted. The 91.91% figure represents the percentage of people seeking a placement who succeeded.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Yeah, those people aren't counted. The 91.91% figure represents the percentage of people seeking a placement who succeeded.

Oh my bad guys. I’ve read on here that schools encourage people to soap to protect their placement rates. I guess thats after failing to match though. Oops.

 

[Meekor]

Oh my bad guys. I’ve read on here that schools encourage people to soap to protect their placement rates. I guess thats after failing to match though. Oops.

They do. but that 91% means that they had tried to soap or scramble, and at time of publishing that data had still not found a position.

 

[SpartanWolverine]

2018 Match data has been released. Looks like 81.7% of DOs matched to a PGY1 position in the NRMP match (e.g., Table 4, Students/Graduates of Osteopathic Medical Schools). This is the same percentage as 2017, but I expect a larger number of those participating ONLY participated in this match. Will be interesting to see how this trends out in the coming years with the precipitous decline in the NMS AOA spots (e.g., 2473 this year down from 3229 in 2016 for >6,000 DO graduates) and pending complete merger.

 

[Solodyn]

For year 2019, only AOA program that will be allow to join the AOA match will be 1 year fellowship or transitional year programs and few programs with special approval (See new Section X https://www.osteopathic.org/inside-...g-standards/Documents/Basic-Doc-Section-X.pdf )

I don't know how many of the AOA programs will be available to graduating DOs, but my guess is that it will be less than 1000 positions for 2018-2019 match year available.

 

[Mad Jack]

I'd love to know what the actual match rate to categorical programs is. Placement rate includes TYs/TRIs that could ultimately lead nowhere.

 

[heychloe]

PNWU is #9 on the 2016 list based on the AOA match in their 2016 GME report: http://www.pnwu.edu/files/3814/9504/5554/PNWU_GME_Accountability_Report_AY2015-16.pdf

Pnwu is not #9. It had a couple unmatched student this year (source:faculty and students) so definitely not 100% this year.

 

[deleted407021]

I’m super curious now about how many people never practice medicine after graduating medical school and not matching.

 

[shadowlightfox]

I’m super curious now about how many people never practice medicine after graduating medical school and not matching.

I'm still super curious about what school this is. I wonder how the dean of that school must feel.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

I'm still super curious about what school this is. I wonder how the dean of that school must feel.

Just guessing it might be WCU.

Edit: Based on what I've read on another thread.

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[Cath Up]

Pnwu is not #9. It had a couple unmatched student this year (source:faculty and students) so definitely not 100% this year.

I think we have established that the identifiers change from year to year, so I’m pretty PNWU was #9 in 2016 but wasn’t this year or in 2017. Sad to hear PNWU lost its 100% match rate this year.

 

[Ho0v-man]

I'm still super curious about what school this is. I wonder how the dean of that school must feel.

Hopefully they feel unemployed soon.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Hopefully they feel unemployed soon.

Even tho it starts with the dean, its probably more than just the dean. I am sure there are other 'prominent' faculty who are pushing the curriculum a certain way as well.

 

[Goro]

I'd love to know what the actual match rate to categorical programs is. Placement rate includes TYs/TRIs that could ultimately lead nowhere.

I've done some research on where TRI people at my school end up and the results were rather pleasing. Nearly all ending up in practice, most in Primary Care, but there were exceptions.

Even though it starts with the dean, its probably more than just the dean. I am sure there are other 'prominent' faculty who are pushing the curriculum a certain way as well.

It's not just the curriculum...it will be quality of clinical rotations (which affect Level II/Step II scores and LORs), policies (which keep the weakest students in the running when it would be less cruel to cut them loose early on) and what I'll wager is the most important factor: Admissions, for admitting weak students to begin with.

 

[Meekor]

I've done some research on where TRI people at my school end up and the results were rather pleasing. Nearly all ending up in practice, most in Primary Care, but there were exceptions.

Even though it starts with the dean, its probably more than just the dean. I am sure there are other 'prominent' faculty who are pushing the curriculum a certain way as well.

It's not just the curriculum...it will be quality of clinical rotations (which affect Level II/Step II scores and LORs), policies (which keep the weakest students in the running when it would be less cruel to cut them loose early on) and what I'll wager is the most important factor: Admissions, for admitting weak students to begin with.

This 100%. A lot of the other aspects can be overcome with the plethora of supplemental resources available (YouTube, Google, UpToDate, uworld, combank, etc). But there were def questionable admits I’ve seen in my class. This was compensated for when they class below me where average GPA/MCAT scores jumped up by .2/1, small change but so far it seems to have worked.

 

[Mad Jack]

I've done some research on where TRI people at my school end up and the results were rather pleasing. Nearly all ending up in practice, most in Primary Care, but there were exceptions.

Even though it starts with the dean, its probably more than just the dean. I am sure there are other 'prominent' faculty who are pushing the curriculum a certain way as well.

It's not just the curriculum...it will be quality of clinical rotations (which affect Level II/Step II scores and LORs), policies (which keep the weakest students in the running when it would be less cruel to cut them loose early on) and what I'll wager is the most important factor: Admissions, for admitting weak students to begin with.

As the TRIs dry up, I fear DOs could find themselves in a rather catastrophic position. Right now they are absorbed into TRIs by the hundreds each year. If they end up completely unmatched instead (as most of these transitional years will either be shut down or open up to the broader pool of applicants as TYs that are highly competitive), it will be messy. And those applicants will apply for several years most likely, ultimately adding thousands of DOs to each match to compete against the current classes. It's going to be interesting to say the least.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

As the TRIs dry up, I fear DOs could find themselves in a rather catastrophic position. Right now they are absorbed into TRIs by the hundreds each year. If they end up completely unmatched instead (as most of these transitional years will either be shut down or open up to the broader pool of applicants as TYs that are highly competitive), it will be messy. And those applicants will apply for several years most likely, ultimately adding thousands of DOs to each match to compete against the current classes. It's going to be interesting to say the least.

Yup. The bottom half of every class will be feeling this squeeze very soon, if not already.

 

[WorldChanger36]

I'm still super curious about what school this is. I wonder how the dean of that school must feel.

It is most likely WCU. It just lines up with our numbers too well when this was published.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

They can always just dismiss students who couldn’t match 4th years to fudge their statistics. It would be the most satanic thing to do but I wouldn’t put it beyond them. I vaguely recalled a WCU student said that some unmatched 4th year students were dismissed.

 

[WorldChanger36]

They can always just dismiss students who couldn’t match 4th years to fudge their statistics. It would be the most satanic thing to do but I wouldn’t put it beyond them. I vaguely recalled a WCU student said that some unmatched 4th year students were dismissed.

While I have never heard of the school dismissing someone for not getting a placement, they will if you dont pass boards. It was hinted they are going to consider board failures/COMSAE failures an academic violation and two failures may result in possible dismissal. However the attrition rate is also getting them flack from COCA so a class size reduction and a new plan will most likely be put into action but I doubt it will change much. Placement rates are just gonna be low.

 

[zero0]

Just guessing it might be WCU.

Edit: Based on what I've read on another thread.

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That's where the smart money is... but I'd cut them some slack after their school was completely destroyed...

 

[BorntobeDO?]

That's where the smart money is... but I'd cut them some slack after their school was completely destroyed...

That happened last year in January. But I am sure they will make that case as well. Despite the fact they managed to match better 3 months after the tornado hit, than they did this year. And ignoring that the tornado shouldn't have affected this class as much since they were already on rotations at that point.