On the cost of studying overseas

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Redlan

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So I thought to start this thread as I've seen little discussion about the subject of getting into substantial debt by studying medicine abroad. I start this January in Brisbane at UQ, and have secured enough money to get nearly all the way through (as long as the exchange rates stay stable of course). I will shoulder nearly all of the cost of the 4 years on a line of credit - so I will probably reach a debt of nearly 300,000$. I find this worrying. I figure once I start medical school I will forget about the debt as such worry would be destructive. I also realise that a physician makes good money (less back here in Canada than in Australia however) and the debt will get paid off - but how long will it take? I am wondering if anyone else on here is in the same position ie., worrying about such exorbitant debt and if handling it post-graduation will not be too much of a stress on other plans like having a family.

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The debt worries me as well. It won't be so bad if I choose a good specialty. However, I plan to do primary care so it's a bit of a worry...
 
So I thought to start this thread as I've seen little discussion about the subject of getting into substantial debt by studying medicine abroad. I start this January in Brisbane at UQ, and have secured enough money to get nearly all the way through (as long as the exchange rates stay stable of course). I will shoulder nearly all of the cost of the 4 years on a line of credit - so I will probably reach a debt of nearly 300,000$. I find this worrying. I figure once I start medical school I will forget about the debt as such worry would be destructive. I also realise that a physician makes good money (less back here in Canada than in Australia however) and the debt will get paid off - but how long will it take? I am wondering if anyone else on here is in the same position ie., worrying about such exorbitant debt and if handling it post-graduation will not be too much of a stress on other plans like having a family.

Well.. just stay in Australia for your residency training then. :) They will pay you upwards of 100k/year as a resident compared to 3-6 years of 30-50k/year in the US. :thumbup:
 
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I'm sure that this has been covered in the financial part of these forums; you might want to ask people there. Our debt as international students won't be any worse than what local US private school students pay.
 
Keep in mind that if you're worried about debts there are always alternatives. I know that in Canada you can sign a 4 year contract (if you're so inclined) to join the military. I did a quick search and it seemed to be geared towards family practice residents, but depending on how far you are through your residency, you can get up to 150,000 signing bonus on top of what they say are competitive wages.

http://www.forces.ca/v3/media/pdf/MedEntryPlans_en.pdf

I'm also going to Queensland in January and I'm not sure what i'm going to do about my debts but this is something I have been thinking about, especially if I decide to come back to Canada. Although i'm sure there are similar programs in the US (or AUS as well i'm sure).
 
Medical school tuition is going to keep going up for a long time. I have decided to go to Australia because it will be better than a DO since Aussie doctors have no real issues practicing in a number of countries.
The most expensive Aussie school, Usyd, runs around $320,000AUD for for years, 54k a year tuition plus 25k a year living expenses, which comes out to around 275k US. UQ comes out around 240k AUD.
I was doing some number crunching and say I earned 180k a year for 20 years as an FM in the US, I would earn 3.6 million over my career. So I think its a fair investment.
 
My question is, does the Canadian Military take IMG physicians? I know they'll take a Canadian Medical Grad with open arms..but there may be restrictions for IMG's..?

Zuck
 
My question is, does the Canadian Military take IMG physicians? I know they'll take a Canadian Medical Grad with open arms..but there may be restrictions for IMG's..?

Zuck

Thats a good point, it may just depend upon how desperate the military is. I've read that they've had more success hiring medical grads recently, but i'm sure that they have a doctor deficit just like everybody else. I suppose it would go back to the old debate of whether or not canadian born internationally trained doctors from reputable schools are held in the same regard as canadian trained students by the powers that be. I would think that if you've been licensed to practice in Canada you should have the same access to these military programs as canadian trained students.
 
Keep in mind that if you're worried about debts there are always alternatives. I know that in Canada you can sign a 4 year contract (if you're so inclined) to join the military. I did a quick search and it seemed to be geared towards family practice residents, but depending on how far you are through your residency, you can get up to 150,000 signing bonus on top of what they say are competitive wages.

http://www.forces.ca/v3/media/pdf/MedEntryPlans_en.pdf

I'm also going to Queensland in January and I'm not sure what i'm going to do about my debts but this is something I have been thinking about, especially if I decide to come back to Canada. Although i'm sure there are similar programs in the US (or AUS as well i'm sure).

The hard part isn't getting the military contract, but actually getting the residency in Canada in the first place. Also as an IMG you will have to fulfill your rural return of contract before being able to do anything else, or you will owe them $
 
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The hard part isn't getting the military contract, but actually getting the residency in Canada in the first place. Also as an IMG you will have to fulfil your rural return of contract before being able to do anything else, or you will owe them $

Not necessarily in all provinces though - Alberta and Manitoba currently have no RoS.
 
The hard part isn't getting the military contract, but actually getting the residency in Canada in the first place. Also as an IMG you will have to fulfil your rural return of contract before being able to do anything else, or you will owe them $

Good point. The hard part is getting residence first. If you're in FM, there's plently of military spaces available, but the ROS takes presidence. I really need to question Canadians borrowing $300,000 and going to Aus. There's no guarantee you'll ever practice in north america, and certainly no guarantee you'll be able to stay in Aus. Plus if its a private loan (Canhelp/teri) the interest rates are so high you'll end up paying another $100000 in interest before residency's over.
 
Good point. The hard part is getting residence first. If you're in FM, there's plently of military spaces available, but the ROS takes presidence. I really need to question Canadians borrowing $300,000 and going to Aus. There's no guarantee you'll ever practice in north america, and certainly no guarantee you'll be able to stay in Aus. Plus if its a private loan (Canhelp/teri) the interest rates are so high you'll end up paying another $100000 in interest before residency's over.


Although there currently isn't a RoS in Manitoba or Alberta, there will probably be one at some point in the future. Especially since provinces which have traditionally been harder to recruit to (Newfoundland) already have them in place.

It's not difficult to practice in Oz at the moment, and it probably makes more sense to work here during residence then either Canada or the US. It's possible to pull in $150k + during your internship/residency. Here are a few tips:

1. Work in smaller hospitals/states. Usually their base pay is higher, and they have more incentives to work there. This could include higher/more overtime pay, sign up bonuses or more attractive relocation packages. They also have lower cost of livings so you will save more in the end.

2. Overtime pay. In Australia the way that you get paid is that you have a base salary (say 55K-65k/annum which is indexed to inflation) plus you have "penalties" aka "overtime" which is awarded as 1.5-3.0x your hourly rate (so not included in your base salary) for anytime you work after 5pm or on weekends. This is "rostered" so it means it's compulsory, however you can also have "unrostered" overtime on top of this which is again 1.5x-3.0x your hourly rate for anytime you need to work that you weren't scheduled to work. Stay late an hour for paperwork, you get paid.

If you do things like ask for weekend shifts or shifts on public holidays your colleagues will only be happy to oblige as most will want that time off. You can easily pull $1000k for a weekend shift (probably even more if it's a Sunday).

The best part of Oz is that even with Rostered overtime, you would be lucky to work 50 hours a week. So if you are hard working and don't mind approaching North American like hours you could be earning a very high pay cheque.

3. Locum. Might require a PR but not necessarily depending on your state. As Australia is a public/private system you can make extra money by working in the private hospitals. They pay $1000-$2000 for a typical 8 hour shift. You can work these shifts whenever you have free time, most will only require that you are fully registered (ie completed your internship).

4. Private assisting. These are usually jobs that are done by GPs, however when they go on holidays or don't want to continue they are open to anyone. Basically you assist the surgeon doing private surgeries (ie in private hospitals). These are required by law, and a surgery can not occur without a private assistant, so trust me these jobs will not be disappearing anytime soon. Again ask around your hospital, as these jobs aren't hard to come by. Basically the government (medicare) pays you 20% of the schedule fee for the surgery, and a good day (Sat/Sun) will net you $3000-$5000 depending on the surgery/skill of the surgeon.

5. GP training. Australia has an excellent GP training program and a good system. Basically most specialties (with some exceptions) require at least an internship year and a resident year before applying. If you apply for the GP training program in your resident year you can get a rural incentive, which is on top of whatever salary you are making as a resident. This is between $10,000-$70,000 on top of your salary, but means you can't work in a hospital in an inner metropolitan area. This payment increases every year you stay in your GP training program to a maximum of $90 000 in your third and final year. I've found a few hospitals that are in decent sized cities that can get almost the maximum payment - onus is on you to do the research for yourself though.

If you then decide that you don't want to continue on with GP training you didn't waste a year (as it's counted towards the speciality training requirement) you keep the extra money but then drop out of GP training.

Those are just a few of the ways I've found to make extra money, there are of course more, but I'll leave them upto you guys to find out as I seem to be the only one sharing on this forum. There are a lot of tax benefits (like salary packaging) etc that I didn't discuss that basically allow you to pay taxes at almost American like rates (as opposed to high Canadian like rates).

Finally all specialties (but especially) GP training is recognised in Canada. I can guarantee you 100% that you can get a GP job in Canada if you are fully certified in Oz. Heck I've already gotten an offer in Saskatchewan, on the condition I finish an RMO year here first, though the pay in Canada is a joke. I'll make more as an Intern then what they are offering as a fully qualified GP in Canada.

You are also treated on par with other Australian graduates. Although I don't even hold a PR I was able to get into two speciality programs this year! People are lucky to get into even one in Canada/US.

If you can find me a place in Canada that pays as much as Australia that an IMG can get into, I'll pack my bags and fly over tomorrow ;)

Edit 13/10/08

Just read in the Ireland forum that Manitoba will have a RoS starting next year.
 
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That was a lot of information that you provided RedShiftEffect and I wanted to thank you for your time in writing it out. I'll be at UQ soon and that kind of infotmation helps greatly in knowing that there are ways to deal with such an insane debt. It is difficult to comprehend 250 - 300,000 $ of debt prior to working... to say the least. I assume that many of the international students going there are in the same boat. Anyway, I guess it is possible to pay it off - I only wonder now if I can pay it off in a reasonable time and also have a life - like raise a family, kids, etc... Lots of questions...
I'll have to tackle these problems one at a time I guess, and that one is now half in the bag...
Thanks again, J.
 
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I seriously think you have to be realistic about your options. 7 years ago virtually no one knew about what it was like staying in Australia, and thus I had no information to go on. Now I think most of the North American students I'm meeting are staying, the same people who several years ago swore blue they were returning.

It might be a combination of things; debt, lack of opportunities back home or perhaps just a chance at working without taking time off to prepare for exams. Not sure, but before you decide where you want to end up make sure you have all the facts.

The only thing I can say is that as a student it's impossible to imagine how much time and effort and stress you will face when you actually start working. Believe me the constant annoyance of the pager has gotten to a lot of people. You really do appreciate the benefits of lifestyle and the balance you get by working in Australia.

That's not to say it doesn't exist elsewhere, but believe me here its' part of the philosophy.
 
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I do understand this perspective, on Oz maybe being the best place to be a physician due to the philosophy of life behind the profession there. I must say I am open to the idea of staying, however I am looking to get back here - to Montreal eventually. That might change, but leaving all my family here with the intent of never coming back is not where I am at personally. I assume you would relate to that as I haven't even left yet.
In general, I am prepared and want to work a great deal - I know what hard work is all about as I've worked in construction for about 10 years off and on. But like I said above - I also want to be able to spend a lot of time with my family once I do have children. You seem to be quite sure, and I've seen this in many other resources, that Australia caters to this humane lifestyle... that is great to hear. I am also wondering if this humane lifestyle is possible here in Canada - I've got conflicting answers about this. Pehaps in pediatrics or in certain specialities it is possible.
Another point is that most of these younger medical students have never worked a day in their life, so their idea of hard work is relative to summers off... I've yet to get a clear answer about the workload and responsibilities of practicing medicine in Canada. I will look more into it - however the base idea I have heard over and over again is that you can choose to work the way you want to. This seems vague to me in relation to other advice I've gotten. It is difficult to get a proper perspective from a distance. Overall it does seem that there is a consensus that Australia is a more humane place to work - I would think that patients are treated better there then...
 
I'm curious about this too. How is a physician's lifestyle in Canada compared to the US? Also, how do they relate to the physician's lifestyles in Oz?

I've heard that in Canada doctor's work really hard and make not great money. In the US, they work really hard and make great money. In Oz, they work not as hard but make great money. I'm sure this varies with the specialty though.

I also like the Australian health care system. I like that they have two-tier health care. I believe in two-tier health care as long as the public system is not compromised. I don't like the American health care system. All that paper work for the insurance companies. I like the Canadian health care system better than the American one, but there are definitely problems in Canada. Many Canadians have to go to the US to get quick, effective care. Wonder what you guys thing of Aussie health care?

Zuck
 
I agree with the generalizations you make Zuckerman - about the three different systems. These are the conclusions I have also made after many conversations. Concerning being a physician in Australia I have heard one thing that I do like; apparently becoming a doctor is not as much of a status thing there and doctors are not quite as full of themselves. I guess the two go together... I would be happy to be trained by modest physicians like those in Australia if this generalization is true. Perhaps working with them would be quite a bonus as well.

Concerning the Australian health care system I think it does lean more towards the Canadian system than towards that of the U.S. If anyone knows any more I am interested to know more about it as well. J.
 
I do understand this perspective, on Oz maybe being the best place to be a physician due to the philosophy of life behind the profession there. I must say I am open to the idea of staying, however I am looking to get back here - to Montreal eventually. That might change, but leaving all my family here with the intent of never coming back is not where I am at personally. I assume you would relate to that as I haven't even left yet.
In general, I am prepared and want to work a great deal - I know what hard work is all about as I've worked in construction for about 10 years off and on. But like I said above - I also want to be able to spend a lot of time with my family once I do have children. You seem to be quite sure, and I've seen this in many other resources, that Australia caters to this humane lifestyle... that is great to hear. I am also wondering if this humane lifestyle is possible here in Canada - I've got conflicting answers about this. Pehaps in pediatrics or in certain specialities it is possible.
Another point is that most of these younger medical students have never worked a day in their life, so their idea of hard work is relative to summers off... I've yet to get a clear answer about the workload and responsibilities of practicing medicine in Canada. I will look more into it - however the base idea I have heard over and over again is that you can choose to work the way you want to. This seems vague to me in relation to other advice I've gotten. It is difficult to get a proper perspective from a distance. Overall it does seem that there is a consensus that Australia is a more humane place to work - I would think that patients are treated better there then...

Redlan,
Please don't take this the wrong way, but working construction even with a 14 hour shift in no way compares to being a doctor. I've done some construction work to help pay for school in my summers off, and let me tell you when you're done work you are done. In medicine you are constantly forced to think, sometimes on your feet because there isn't always a black and white answer. Most of the time you are required to multitask as there can be 4-5 things happening simultaneously that require your attention.

Then there's the added stress of knowing that every little decision you make could result in someone's death. Believe me, I've seen a couple of close calls where the doctor in question just wasn't thinking and it nearly resulted in someone's death. That's the problem, because you don't only have yourself to worry about but your patients and possibly your career. There is a reason why doctors get paid so much money, it's because the job is stressful. Until you actually start working in this profession you can really have no idea. Job shadowing or even being a medical student (where you can make your own hours and leave when you want, and where you have no real responsibility) is not the same thing.

As for returning to Canada, well you really have two options there. You will have to either do all of your training in Oz or hope for the best and try and return to Canada and aim for a match there. Unfortunately you can't write the MCCEE until your final year of medical school. Realistically this means you will have to write it after you graduate, meaning it will be very difficult to balance the challenges of internship with studying for the MCCEE. If you decide to take that year off and don't have a PR, it will be very difficult to come back to Oz. The match rates in Canada are between 5-15% with many provinces (probably soon all by the time you graduate) requiring RoS for 1:1 durations. The ones that don't are already extremely competitive for this reason.

What good is finishing medical school if you don't even have a job waiting for you at the end of it? If you do decide to do all your training here, that's a minimum of 8 years that you'll be spending in Oz...if you decide to do GP.

As for lifestyle, I've seen the financial side of things (at least in General Practice) in Canada, the US and Oz. There are downsides/upsides to all three systems and here are my observations:

Canada - In large cities being a GP is actually quite competitive, as they seem to be on every block. Sure you can open your doors and fill your practice quite easily, but it's just as easy to lose those patients.

You have to stay working long hours because that's the only way to be competitive with other practices, since most people would prefer not to take a day off work to see you. Since 100% of your income is provided by the government (and it doesn't vary for the length of the consult) you also don't have any incentive for seeing people for any longer period of time. Thus you have to churn out your patients and that's why they have you in an examining room waiting for the doctor, because the time you spend walking into a room actually costs the doctor money.

They try and have an average patient time of about 5 minutes to maximise their income. Some GP clinics are already limiting it to 1 problem per presentation (as the elderly love to tell you about their chest pain just as they are about to walk out the door). To compound matters is the fact that patient notes are all still done on paper in most practices which makes it hard to find patient information quickly.

There are people that work part time but these are usually women. To do this, you either have to own your own clinic or be employed by someone else. The employment salaries are not very good (I can attest to this, as I received such an offer from Saskatchewan) and are certainly less then in Australia. It's difficult to start your own practice because you really don't get paid much as a resident, so you have virtually no savings. You can always take out a loan, but you will be upto your eyeballs in debt (your student loan(s) + mortgage on your house + mortgage on your practice). Superclincs don't seem to be as popular in Canada and typically you find that there's 1-2 owners with the rest of the doctors employees of the practice. That's partially why salaried doctors get paid less, since their payment is not a percentage of the patients they see but rather a fixed income, regardless of how many patients they see. In Australia on the other hand you are given a percentage of the amount you bill. See more patients, you get more pay.

To increase their income doctors would do things like charge you for a medical certificate, or extra for an insurance medical. This is how a supposedly 100% free government covered consultation ended up costing patients money. It was pretty dodgy.

Typical hours - 9am - 7pm + some Weekends
Pay (This is on average as a salaried employee) $100,000 - $150, 000 CDN

US - The pay is better then in Canada but you have a lot of hidden downfalls as well.

HMOs - If you don't prescribe/treat patients the way they want, they stop sending their patients to you. It's pretty much black mail. They essentially dictate how you should run your practice.

Poor patients - You just don't realise how much poverty there is in America until you actually work at a GP clinic. We had working adults who were making minimum wage, had subpar health insurance that couldn't even afford PPIs for their reflux, so we had to give them sample packets from the pharmaceutical companies! Most can't even afford to pay you.

Myriad insurance companies - Most realise that by making you chase them and by not paying you they can increase their bottom line. So you have to hire a person just to chase these aholes. So subtract about 25% of your income for the cost of hiring the person, and not getting paid.

Salaries - $150,000 - $170,000 USD (again salaried employee) but that doesn't include your malpractice insurance, which is quite high, but varies from state to state.

Hours - 9am - 7/8pm from what I saw, but again depends how much competition there is in an area. US doctors tended to work a lot more weekends. Most of the extra time was catching up on paperwork after patient consultations had finished. They had the most paperwork I've ever seen!

Australia - The good about the system is that you get paid from the gov't but you can get more to cover your session from the patient themselves (which you can't do in Canada). This means you have more time with patients, and therefore you see less patients in a day. Believe me seeing 25 vs. 50+ in Can/US was huge. You are a lot less stressed and that's why specialist practice is so attractive. You can afford to see 8-10 patients in a typical day of a specialists clinic, and make more then the GP who sees 25+.

I've so far never seen a GP clinic open later then 5pm, and most if open on weekends are open only half days. The only exception being where you have a superclinic, and the GPs in those cases have rosters.

There are only a handful of insurance companies, all strictly regulated, with the largest one owned in some part by the government. So payment from these companies is never an issue, with the rest of the money coming from the government (like in Canada) (or if you choose) you can charge the patient a nominal amount depending on the length of the consult. There are also extra things you can do such as health care plans, medication reviews that are mainly done by the nurse in your practice and paid by the govt that can triple your fee for a single patient consult.

Most of the GPs in Australia actually work part-time which is why there is such a shortage. Since they get paid more, they can afford to do 3 days a week.

There are also a lot more opportunities for GPs in Oz then in Canada or the US. You can become GP specialists with special interests and further training that allow you to make more money then a regular GP for specific consults. You have the option of getting specialist fellowships in Pain management or palliative care which mean you are a specialist in those areas, and thus you can do a combination of GP work, or purely specialist work. You can also do minor surgical procedures, like BCC/SCC removals, lumpectomies...etc. This is even in the suburbs of large metropolitan areas, didn't see any Canadian GPs doing this. If you like surgery there is also the added option of being a surgeon's assistant. You could net $3000-$5000 for a good day of surgery.

Of the three Canadian GPs had the worst practical skills. Most were surprised I knew how to put in fluorescein eye drops - they were thinking of referring them to the optometrist for this. That's the downfall of a 2 year training program. You pretty much know nothing (but the absolute basics) when you are done - I was utterly stunned by their lack of knowledge.

Disadvantage - Amount of training required. 4 years including internship is longer then Canada or the US. Plus because of the existence of all the "specialists" areas you're looking at 6 month diploma courses for GP-Obstetric or GP-paediatric or even GP-anaesthetists specialists if you are interested in these areas. On the plus side though the malpractice insurance is the lowest of all three countries (at least for now).

Salaries - Salaried employees get between $200, 000 AUD - $250, 000 AUD. Though living costs are slightly higher on average then in Canada/US. If you own a practice the income varies between $350,000 - $500, 000 for a well run practice.

Work hours - Most newer GPs work 3 days a week, though there are some that still work 5 days. Work hours are 9am - 4/5pm and if weekends then a half day Saturday (rostered). Exception being superclinics.

Paperwork was the least in Australia, because most GP clinics now have fully electronic notes, you can do all the paperwork as you go meaning very little catch up time at the end.
 
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Wow! Thanks for your informative posts redshifteffect!
So most new gps actually only work 3 days a week? and this is because they get paid enough? That seems a little odd...coming from Canada I can only picture doctors working crazy hours...
 
That's actually part of the reason there is a shortage of GPs. Even with the influx of medical students there will still be a shortage of GPs, particularly because they work part time. Keep in mind that this is on average, and that GP mainly attracts women (currently) who want even more of a balance between work and family life then in other professions.

Though even the male GPs I've met who do work full time only work as a GP part time, and pursue other avenues during their free time.
 
excellent post Redshift...

thank you.
 
Great info Redshift, appreciated.
becoming a doctor is not as much of a status thing there
It's because even a plumber makes more than 100k per year in Aus that's why becoming a doctor is not very much of a status.

For the Salary comparison we have to consider that the expenses in Aus which is easily double compare to Canada. A simple way is to go on any car dealership website in Aus vs Canada and you'll see that monthly payment for a leased car is double in Aus.
 
Yes, thanks again redshifteffect and others for your answers. I did like the sound of those adds on that webpage you offered. It does seem that in Australia one's standard of life is taken into more consideration by looking at those posts.
 
Great info Redshift, appreciated.

It's because even a plumber makes more than 100k per year in Aus that's why becoming a doctor is not very much of a status.

For the Salary comparison we have to consider that the expenses in Aus which is easily double compare to Canada. A simple way is to go on any car dealership website in Aus vs Canada and you'll see that monthly payment for a leased car is double in Aus.

The costs are definitely not double! Leasing a car is not popular in Australia, as people don't seem to like it. Financing terms are also not as attractive, and definitely luxury cars are more expensive. However a run of the mill car like a Holden or a Toyota when all the expenses are considered are exactly the same price.

To me the costs of living are as follows:

Heating/Electrical bills
More expensive in Canada of course because of the cost of winter heating.

Water
Free in Hobart, compared to a friend in Melbourne though about the same as Canada. Though in Melbourne they do have water restrictions (seems like Ontario is going down that road as well).

Insurance
More expensive in Canada

Housing
Used to be cheaper in Canada, but I was looking at houses to invest in Saskatoon and you're looking at $400,000 for a decent house. I can get beach front property for that much in Brisbane

Malpractice insurance
Much cheaper in Oz. It was a difference of about 10x. (These were the rates I was quoted). Probably also varies from province to province.

Food
Loaf of bread (generic no name): 2.50 AUD in Canada
2.23 AUD in Australia

Cucumber: 1.00 AUD in Canada
1.00 AUD in Australia

Eating out:
Quantity much more in Canada.
Quality (subjective) better in Oz.
Unfortunately for some reason getting juice/coke in Australia is extremely expensive vs. Canada.

Fuel prices: Remember to compare 91 grade octane (premium in Canada) to the lowest gas here (91 grade octane) last time I checked it was about 1.50 CAD in Ontario in June. No idea what the prices are now, but I'm guessing about 1.20 CAD? That's about 1.52 AUD at todays exchange rates.

Fruits/Vegetables are commmonly sold by the Lb in Canada but if you look at the Kilo prices and convert they are about the same. Remember in Australia taxes are already added into the advertised prices.

However seafood is cheaper in Canada especially salmon and shrimps. Some electronics are also cheaper such as video gaming consoles/video games.

Cell phone plans with unlimited evenings/weekends. Well it can go either way. Here they now have completely unlimited calling 24/7 to any number in the country. In Canada the unlimited evenings/weekends are good, if you only know people in a certain calling area. If you call outside the area you get raped on the charges.

Anyway if you're going to make a post please use facts/figures. I'm sure we are all pretty logical people and would prefer logical points. It's annoying when people use simple emotions to construct an argument, and there is little if any fact behind the statement.

Although Canada may seem cheap, I can assure you that if you actually look at the costs, they are similar. I've analyzed this extensively, and now that I'm earning money here, there is no way that I can actually say living costs here are double then in Canada. Also I'd rather be earning my salary then what a resident in Canada makes. I have a friend doing GP training in Saskatchewan at the moment and he's barely covering his rent and insurance. I'd say of the two, I have the better lifestyle.
 
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Redshifteffect rules! Awesome posts my friend...very informative :D
 
The Aussie Dollar has been falling considerably against most currencies, its now quite affordable to go to Australia as a student if you are from North America or Europe. Even USyd's 54k AUD tuition is now a little over 30k US. Most things are within reach for most people in Australia. Only high end luxury cars are more expensive in Australia than anywhere else.
 
54k aus is around 44k CAD. With living expenses its say 54K/year, with the possibility of tuition increasing every year. so with interest it approaches 300K at graduation.
How are canadian kids heading to Aus going to pay this?
If their families can afford it then they're probably going to end up at queens or mac anyways. Most will be taking out alot in loans.
If you're earning the change redshifteffect has been talking about (150K/year in residency)then it shouldnt be too much of an issue, certainly it will limit you on things like buying property but the debt will steadily shrink, and you will live happily ever after.
My concern is that non-PR's with this huge debt arent guaranteed a training spot, and therefore face the theoretical possibility of leaving oz with all this debt, and no training, and taking their chances with CaRMS.
I say this is a theoretical possibility because every one ive only heard of this happening once, and every other canadian i know who headed to oz did ok. Still with 300K how much can you really leave to chance.
 
If you're earning the change redshifteffect has been talking about (150K/year in residency)then it shouldnt be too much of an issue, certainly it will limit you on things like buying property but the debt will steadily shrink, and you will live happily ever after.
My concern is that non-PR's with this huge debt arent guaranteed a training spot, and therefore face the theoretical possibility of leaving oz with all this debt, and no training, and taking their chances with CaRMS.
I say this is a theoretical possibility because every one ive only heard of this happening once, and every other canadian i know who headed to oz did ok. Still with 300K how much can you really leave to chance.

Just in case there is any misunderstanding (and I assume there must be) when I use the word resident, I am not doing so in the Northern American way (why should I since I'm working in Australia).

A "resident" here means either an intern, or RMO. Essentially the difference is that you are not in a training program (it can get more complicated as there are un-accredited and accredited training programs, but I won't get into a game of semantics).

A registrar (the equivalent of a North American resident) without doing any of the tricks above should be earning well above $150k (at least in the surgical specialties). When I was doing Neurosurgery, all three of my registrars were earning about $200K for about 65 hours/week.

I know Psychiatry registrars make at least $120-$150k just doing their normal job. I'd have to ask around for pay rates for the others.
 
That is the dilemma I am having, for people who graduated this year, its not much of an issue going back to the States or staying in Oz to work, but when I finish, it could be considering the fact that new US medical schools are opening shop and residency programs are being cut, that an a potential glut of medical graduates in Australia on or after 2012.
I asked a straight question on what my immigration and employment prospects would be with regards to getting a Dental or Medical degree and I got some ridiculous responses. I am making a massive financial sacrifice unlike local students who have HECS fees and Austudy to pay their expenses, maybe they can think "altruistically" but I have to be realistic. This Aussie system is really different in that the health care system seems to treat Dentists better than Doctors, whereas in the US its the other way around. Most you Canadians and Aussies and Euros once you are out of your social welfare state are just as capitalistic as anyone in the US and I have met many real life examples of all in the States.
 
5. GP training. Australia has an excellent GP training program and a good system. Basically most specialties (with some exceptions) require at least an internship year and a resident year before applying. If you apply for the GP training program in your resident year you can get a rural incentive, which is on top of whatever salary you are making as a resident. This is between $10,000-$70,000 on top of your salary, but means you can't work in a hospital in an inner metropolitan area.

i was under the impression it was fairly easy to get into GP training after only completing internship. is this wrong?

This payment increases every year you stay in your GP training program to a maximum of $90 000 in your third and final year. I've found a few hospitals that are in decent sized cities that can get almost the maximum payment - onus is on you to do the research for yourself though.

If you then decide that you don't want to continue on with GP training you didn't waste a year (as it's counted towards the speciality training requirement) you keep the extra money but then drop out of GP training.

wait, the GP training will count towards specialty training? how is gp training going to count towards training in a different specialty? or did you mean the resident year? how would a resident year be counted towards specialty training when it precedes the training program?
 
i was under the impression it was fairly easy to get into GP training after only completing internship. is this wrong?



wait, the GP training will count towards specialty training? how is gp training going to count towards training in a different specialty? or did you mean the resident year? how would a resident year be counted towards specialty training when it precedes the training program?

I'll summarise it again.

To get into most speciality training programs (though NOT ALL) you need 1 year of internship and one year of RMO training.

To do GP training you need one year of internship. The following 3 years are then divided in this manner:

1 year as a resident, during which time you need Paediatrics (or 6 months ED, with at least 25% of your patients being children). If you can't get this, you can do as many years as a resident as you want until you do get your compulsory rotations out of the way (at this stage it's only Paediatrics or the ED equivalent).

2 years in the community doing General Practice.

Therefore, if you do your resident year while under the banner of the GP program you qualify for the extra money, but if you drop out at the end of that resident year you can still use that year for the requirements of your specialty program (ie 1 intership year and 1 resident year).

I hope that makes more sense. So the GP "year" would count towards the resident portion of your specialist training (ie the requirement you need before you can even apply). However technically you can do anything in that resident GP year, and I've known people who've done unaccredited years, which were then counted towards their training when they got in (ie like they did a year in Rehab medicine).
 
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GP training wasn't difficult for me to get into, but my situation might be different then yours, I'll explain:

1. It depends where you apply. The program is divided up into regions, and you select two per round (there are three rounds in a year) that you want, your first and second choices. Preference is given to people with more experience (say for example those who've already completed their resident year), however you can easily make up for this by having better references, as you will score in a higher band then them.

2. Some regions are more competitive then others.

3. 100% of the cut off is based on your referee reports. I used a combination of ones I acquired as a medical student and some as an intern. It's important to have really good references because this is the only criteria they judge you on (for the cut off band system - see below). The referees fill out this standardised scoring system and fax it back, you can nominate as many as you want, but only 3 of them count. They are very strict with them being in on time, so my suggestion would be to nominate at least 5 so you can have 3 come in on time.

4. You are then ranked in "bands" from 1 to 10. Band 1 being the best, and 10 being the worst. The region that you applied to, then sets a cut off band, which if you fall below you don't get an interview. The GPET program trys and organises an interview with your second choice if you didn't get one with your first choice.

5. Your interview is clinical and ethical, they also ask you about motivations, and previous experience. It lasted about 45 mins. Some regions this year introduced a 7 or 8 station OSCE interview. My panel was three people, but the OSCE panel is 2 people per station.

6. If you fail to get a job, you then go into the second round. You can also start in the second round if you didn't get your referee reports in on time. They give you a list of the remaining spots around the country, and you reorder your preference and go through the whole thing again. BTW you can also turn down a job, and then go into the second round.
 
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That is the dilemma I am having, for people who graduated this year, its not much of an issue going back to the States or staying in Oz to work, but when I finish, it could be considering the fact that new US medical schools are opening shop and residency programs are being cut, that an a potential glut of medical graduates in Australia on or after 2012.
I asked a straight question on what my immigration and employment prospects would be with regards to getting a Dental or Medical degree and I got some ridiculous responses. I am making a massive financial sacrifice unlike local students who have HECS fees and Austudy to pay their expenses, maybe they can think "altruistically" but I have to be realistic. This Aussie system is really different in that the health care system seems to treat Dentists better than Doctors, whereas in the US its the other way around. Most you Canadians and Aussies and Euros once you are out of your social welfare state are just as capitalistic as anyone in the US and I have met many real life examples of all in the States.

What were the ridiculous responses you've got?

When I was backpacking down under I met a guy who had similar concerns. What he did is he didnt pay his tuition, and wouldnt until they gave him a satisfactory answer. He was in aus attending classes and working (he had a student visa) and making $$. Anyways, at the end of first year the school told him they couldnt guarantee any employment prospects. He took off, and essentially profited from the whole experience.
 
Well all I got was nonsense from North Americans students who talked up the virtues of being a doctor versus the conveniences of the dental profession. None of the responses came from Australians, these North Americans have their own frame of reference, that of Doctors being higher up in the hierarchy of healthcare than Dentists, in Australia and many European countries, Doctors and Dentists are equal, very different from the US and Canada. I know for a fact that schools have been increasing spots for medical students but internships and other post grad positions have not, there is a distinct possiblity that many students entering in 2009 as internationals will not be able to practice in Australia. Canada is a closed door for IMGs, Carms is insanely hostile to IMG graduates, the US is going to become the same as more DO and MD schools open. Think, you will be $250 to 300k in debt, do you have idea how long it could take you to pay that off???!!
The dental school has outright told me that internationals can practice in Australia and many have done this. They also have not rapidly increased spots at Dental schools. Only one new Dental school has opened up in the last eight years, while nearly a half dozen new medical schools have opened in Australia.
A medical degree is useless without a residency, ask the thousands of foreign doctors in Canada who are driving taxis and delivering pizzas.

Anyway I got the cold hard truth as to why Australia has such a "physician shortage", the public system treats its doctors like crap. I have actually been to Australia and witnessed firsthand how they are viewed in society as opposed to the US.

The income for self employed Dentists is actually on par with that of medical specialists and much higher than GPs, someone posted a report stating that most self employed GPs earn around 220 to 275k a year while Dentists averaged 400k a year in private practice. And that GP income you can only get assuming you can get an internship and registrar training.
 
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What were the ridiculous responses you've got?

When I was backpacking down under I met a guy who had similar concerns. What he did is he didnt pay his tuition, and wouldnt until they gave him a satisfactory answer. He was in aus attending classes and working (he had a student visa) and making $$. Anyways, at the end of first year the school told him they couldnt guarantee any employment prospects. He took off, and essentially profited from the whole experience.

The unis have gotten smarter, you cannot get away without paying tuition these days, they will cancel your enrollment if you do not pay by a certain date.
 
Johnny didn't you apply to med school in Australia?
I don't think the difference between $200k and $400k a year between a GP and dentist really matters because in both cases you're making a comfortable income. You certainly weren't crapping on the medical profession in Australia after you received your Oz med school acceptance.

Anyways... you've come a long way since podiatry schools so congrats to you on that... lol
 
Australia has opened up JCU, Bond, Griffith, UOW, Notre Dame Sydney, UWS, Monash Gippsland, Griffith, Notre Dame Perth, and a I believe a few others, all in the span of the last seven years. At the same time internship and registrar positions have been stagnant. To get you an idea of how big that is, its like opening a 140 new medical schools in the US. At the same time, only one new Dental school has opened up, I believe Griffith has a program, the others are Melbourne, UWA, Adelaide, UQ, and USyd.
UQ just made things look worse by creating a diploma mill style program with Ochsner, guess what, anal retentive US states like California will not grant you license if you graduate from a program like that, they require all IMGs to take all their cores in the home country of their medical school. UQ would have made a much better impression if it created a program in conjunction with a university, maybe Tulane or LSU instead of Ochsner.
Honestly you should visit Australia, and spend a extended period of time there. They even have signs in the hospital warning patients that assaulting staff will be punished, I have never seen such a thing in the US. No one in Oz looks up to doctors the way they do in the US. There is a big tall poppy syndrome in Oz.
There is a huge difference between 400k and 200k and obviously you did not read my post. I said its not even guaranteed as a medical student that you will be able to work as a doctor in Australia. You said you had a boat, what are you some rich kid living off of daddy's trust fund???
Did you know the director of Mad Max and Road Warrior was actually an Australian doctor? He actually used his experience as an ER specialist to make the gore in the movies realistic.
Australia overall is a nice place and very laid back, whatever gets a me a house near the beach and a blonde in my arm and that doesn't involve illegal activity will do me fine.
Another fine example of how doctors are welcome in Oz:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24580260-26103,00.html
This German doctor was denied a visa because his son is mentally ******ed and therefore was considered a drain on Australia's social welfare system.
As someone who spent time in the country, there are heaps of people in Australia mooching off the system coming from overseas, check out Bankstown and some other ghettos in the Sydney metro. The benefit that a German physician would provide rural Australia would easily outweigh any strain his son would potentially have.
 
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Well all I got was nonsense from North Americans students who talked up the virtues of being a doctor versus the conveniences of the dental profession. None of the responses came from Australians, these North Americans have their own frame of reference, that of Doctors being higher up in the hierarchy of healthcare than Dentists, in Australia and many European countries, Doctors and Dentists are equal, very different from the US and Canada. I know for a fact that schools have been increasing spots for medical students but internships and other post grad positions have not, there is a distinct possiblity that many students entering in 2009 as internationals will not be able to practice in Australia. Canada is a closed door for IMGs, Carms is insanely hostile to IMG graduates, the US is going to become the same as more DO and MD schools open. Think, you will be $250 to 300k in debt, do you have idea how long it could take you to pay that off???!!
The dental school has outright told me that internationals can practice in Australia and many have done this. They also have not rapidly increased spots at Dental schools. Only one new Dental school has opened up in the last eight years, while nearly a half dozen new medical schools have opened in Australia.
A medical degree is useless without a residency, ask the thousands of foreign doctors in Canada who are driving taxis and delivering pizzas.

Anyway I got the cold hard truth as to why Australia has such a "physician shortage", the public system treats its doctors like crap. I have actually been to Australia and witnessed firsthand how they are viewed in society as opposed to the US.

The income for self employed Dentists is actually on par with that of medical specialists and much higher than GPs, someone posted a report stating that most self employed GPs earn around 220 to 275k a year while Dentists averaged 400k a year in private practice. And that GP income you can only get assuming you can get an internship and registrar training.

1. SALARIED GPs earn 200-250k a year (does anyone even read my posts?) if you are self employed you make 350-500k a year.

2. The Australian government (unlike the Canadian one) is actually not stupid. They have been increasing internship spots. The Gold coast last year only had about 60 internship spots, this year it had 90. SA and WA also increased their internship spots.

3. The fact remains though that there is a lot less uncertainty with dental school; since you are done when you graduate.

4. The public system is Australia is no worse then in Canada, or the US. The only thing is that the private system is much more lucrative. That's why people want to work there. Doctors are actually treated quite well. In most hospitals you get a car, laptop, living allowance and your malpractice insurance covered if you work publicly, on top of an allowance for conferences, seminars etc. That's easily another $150k on top of your salary.

5. Most of the new medical schools are rural bonded. So their students are forced to go rurally, which shouldn't affect internship positions in most of the metro hospitals (who are also increasing internship positions).

6. Friends of mine who are working in inner metro hospitals in the US (which of course is where a lot of IMGs end up working) say there have been quite a few situations where they have been scared for their life, and they even have guards escorting them to their cars at night. I personally have never seen a sign asking patients not to harm doctors, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

7. Respect is relative...although I think doctors do get respect in Oz, at the end of the day it doesn't matter, because respect pays no bills.
 
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Actually, Johnny, if you are worried about potential issues arising from the increasing student intakes, at USyd, you can get your Dental degree and then sub matriculate into the medical course. They allow this as an option for Dental students since USyd MBBS and BDent students take similar coursework in year one and two.
I would not blame you about worrying about debt the way the global economy is going and since the cost of attending medical school is out pacing inflation by a long shot.
If your are looking at this as investment, Dentistry will have a higher ROI in financial terms, tuition for Dental courses are less and salaries tend to increase faster because there is no residency required. Dentists start out at six figures right out of school unless they work in public clinics. I am already a rich guy anyway.
As far as safety, Australia is a heck of a lot safer than anywhere in the US, doctors do not get bashed up here. There are much more serious issues in the US, I had a friend in college whose father was threatened with death by a patient's son. There is also a good episode of the Sopranos involving a doctor being extorted and its actually loosely based on a real life story.
 
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http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/106297.php

Read this article, Queensland will have 750 medical graduates in 2012 and right now only has 662 internship positions, that means over 100 students will graduate medical school and not have a job, if internship spots are not increased to 750 spots. It also mentioned that students without PR, aka internationals will be the ones on the short end of the stick. I don't know about other states but the issue is going to be there too. The only states that will have a sufficient number of training places will be South Australia and WA and that could change.

So that means that international students will have to get an internship or residency in their home country or they are out on their rear ends with no job.
 
1- Mentally ******ed is not a PC term - I personally would prefer if your posts were a little more respectful and sensitive to others

2- Canada, although still far from good, is actually getting better in terms of IMG residency spots. It is now possible to match first round in some specialties or for those interested in family medicine. Therefore, I think "closed door" is inaccurate

3- Unfortunately abuse happens in any medical setting. People are frusterated, not feeling well, tired and in many cases receiving less than fantastic news/results. This is often misdirected at health care workers. I know I've seen signs in Canada addressing nursing abuse. This doesn't necessarly translate to respect and not every place is going to deal with it by putting up a sign. I think you are jumping to conclusions by seeing a sign and therefore concluding Australian doctors aren't respected. Not necessarily a causal relationship.

4- If you are just out to make money you seem to have your answer. You feel dentists make more and therefore will bring you the happiness you are searching for in life. Question answered. Why the need to continually post comments that are not only incorrect, but of no benefit to anyone else.
 
Actually just because first round spots in Canada are available that doesn't mean it's been getting any easier. If you've taken a look at the CaRMS stats for the last couple of years, even with first round offers spots are getting more difficult to match into. Part of the reason that it's only going to get harder is that they have now opened up MCCEE testing centres in a lot more countries (including Australia, as of September). More people writing the test, more people applying for the match and therefore the more difficult the match will be.

Family medicine doesn't require rocket science, and the fact that even that has dismal match rates for IMGs is an indication of how bad the situation is in Canada.

Also the various provinces have been trying to open up more medical schools, but in all their wisdom didn't increase the residency positions. Even Canadian graduates have a match rate of their first round choices hovering around 60%, so with the pressure of the new graduates it's going to be more difficult for IMGs unless the residency spots increase in number.

One thing I'd have to agree with is that based on the amount of loans people will be stradled with, risking it all on a 5-15% match rate in CaRMs is a huge gamble. Especially because if you don't complete the internship (in Oz, Malaysia or Singapore) you can't use your medical degree to return to Australia, so you don't even have that option available to you (as some Canadians might choose to take the year off to try and get a match through CaRMs). Even the US, for IMGs isn't a great place. There has been a huge influx of US trained IMGs here in Australia who got the J1s because they were kicked out for 2 years (as part of the J1 clause) and had no where else to work. Then Canadians get screwed that way as well, as a few friends have had trouble getting J1s because the (Ontario) Ministry of Health requires you to write the MCCEE, and doesn't recognise all the specialities in the US. So they had to go for H1Bs which are not easy to get, and not a lot of hospitals sponsor. So those who think the US is a "guaranteed" job may have a bit of a reality check waiting for them when they graduate (as did a lot of my friends who graduated from here and the Caribbean). At least the Oz ones could stay. The Caribbean ones are working at McDonalds/Tim Hortons trying to get a match somewhere.
 
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I'm curious about this too. How is a physician's lifestyle in Canada compared to the US? Also, how do they relate to the physician's lifestyles in Oz?

I've heard that in Canada doctor's work really hard and make not great money. In the US, they work really hard and make great money. In Oz, they work not as hard but make great money. I'm sure this varies with the specialty though.

I also like the Australian health care system. I like that they have two-tier health care. I believe in two-tier health care as long as the public system is not compromised. I don't like the American health care system. All that paper work for the insurance companies. I like the Canadian health care system better than the American one, but there are definitely problems in Canada. Many Canadians have to go to the US to get quick, effective care. Wonder what you guys thing of Aussie health care?

Zuck

GPs make a pretty good income in Oz, comparable to US PCPs, if you account for purchasing power, a little more. I know a lot of FMs in Chicago, the third largest city in the US, most FMs and IMs earn around 150 to 180k a year US after expenses. Aussie GPs seem to net 240 to 280k AUD, so that is about comparable at current exchange rates, the Aussie dollar has normally ranged from .65 to .75 US cents, the last couple of years has been different.

The issue coming up for new internationals is that most schools have been rapidly increasing undergraduate seats but internship spots have been stagnant.

Two possible ways to get PR, do a lot of electives in rural communities and get an understaffed hospital to sponsor you, this will involved a lot of contact between your mouth and someone's posterior. The other is marrying a local, this might sound crazy but my experience in Australia has been that its quite common for med students to hook up. It would be a bit easier for guys to do this since the country is experiencing a man drought :).
 
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God bless the man drought....hahaha.
 
1- Mentally ******ed is not a PC term - I personally would prefer if your posts were a little more respectful and sensitive to others

2- Canada, although still far from good, is actually getting better in terms of IMG residency spots. It is now possible to match first round in some specialties or for those interested in family medicine. Therefore, I think "closed door" is inaccurate

3- Unfortunately abuse happens in any medical setting. People are frusterated, not feeling well, tired and in many cases receiving less than fantastic news/results. This is often misdirected at health care workers. I know I've seen signs in Canada addressing nursing abuse. This doesn't necessarly translate to respect and not every place is going to deal with it by putting up a sign. I think you are jumping to conclusions by seeing a sign and therefore concluding Australian doctors aren't respected. Not necessarily a causal relationship.

4- If you are just out to make money you seem to have your answer. You feel dentists make more and therefore will bring you the happiness you are searching for in life. Question answered. Why the need to continually post comments that are not only incorrect, but of no benefit to anyone else.

Smoking some Good Hashish??! There are heaps of European surgeons in Montreal driving cabs. Its very well known that Canada has closed door policy to IMGs, they let them in for immigration but then there is no job.

I wasn't calling the German doctor's son a ******, I just said that he happens to be mentally ******ed and thats why the DIMIA rejected his application for PR.
 
I think we need to remember that there is a difference between a Canadian trying to return to the country they were born, raised and for the most part educated in and immigrant IMG. There are some slight differences.

I won't even bother with your last comment. You obviously aren't worried about speaking in a politically correct manner.
 
Okay, the Australian immigration authorities denied a German physician a Visa because his son has Down's Syndrome and they believed his son would a burden to the healthcare system. Good.

You will hate Australia, Aussies are not known for being PC. I have been there, trust me, its not like North America. Meet some Queensland rednecks, you will run for the hills. There is a reason why large numbers of ethnic minorities in Australia prefer to live in Sydney and Melbourne. I live in the US and would not be caught dead in Mississippi. The moratorium that forces international students to work in rural or other areas bothers me a lot. An Australian already posted his anger with this policy and even said his partner who is a doctor from New Zealand left the practice of medicine because of it. As someone of Asian Muslim origin, I would feel far more comfortable in Sydney than in some rural backwater. Even a lot of locals are very territorial, few Sydneysiders would want to live in Queensland and vice versa. There is a huge Melbourne-Sydney rivalry and I am not talking about footy.

I am just rebuking what you said regarding IMGs in Canada, there are many horror stories of how foreign trained doctors are treated there. I even know a family member that has had personal experience dealing with the Canadian system. Canada is not very pc with regards to its treatment of IMGs.

I am also being attacked for simply noting the fact that Australian medical schools have been increasing seats faster than local health authorities have been increasing internship positions. Unlike North America, you need to complete an internship year at minimum to enter a registrar training program. Since unlike some others, I do not have a rich daddy or uncle paying for my education and will be taking on the burden of student loans, I need to ensure that I can pay them back and also have a roof over my head. I know quite a few locals who would reethink their decision if they had the kind of financial burden that some of us internationals will have. By the way, most international students in Australia come from very wealthy backgrounds, like internationals in most Western countries.

Also just because you are North American living in Australia, that means nothing, because as a foreigner, you have no rights whatsoever, its only until you are naturalized citizen do you have some rights. Aussie immigration has been known to deport both Americans and Canadians without flinching an eye. I agree that Australia is a great country and worth working hard to live there but there are a lot of obstacles for those of us who wish to live there.
 
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Smoking some Good Hashish??! There are heaps of European surgeons in Montreal driving cabs. Its very well known that Canada has closed door policy to IMGs, they let them in for immigration but then there is no job.

I wasn't calling the German doctor's son a ******, I just said that he happens to be mentally ******ed and thats why the DIMIA rejected his application for PR.

The proper term is 'a person with developmental disability'. Personally I don't care how people say it...as long as they don't use '******' on it's own.

Canada also has a closed door to IMGs that are NOT Canadian. Canadians who were trained in another country is different, they are opening doors but it is still very difficult.

Anyways...to your main point.

Dentists as far as I can tell make more money, at least in Canada.

If I was going for the $$$ I'd enter dentistry. Having spoken to several dentists then several medical doctors, at least in Canada, I know some dentists right out of university making as much as surgeons for far less hours and stress (you work 9-5, and don't deal with life/death situations) and as a dentist you don't need to go through any internship.

Australia costs more to buy that Porsche you want (I don't even know why) even with the exchange rates it's something like 40-50% more than compared to Canada. Compared to USA it's almost 100% more. For example:
Cayman S in the US costs 59.1K USD in Canada its $75.3K + Tax CND (so 85K CND = 71K USD) and in Australia it's 154.4K (inc GST) AUD (so 105.1K USD) this is of course with today's exchange rates.
 
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