Offloading diabetic foot ulcers

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DYK343

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We tell people to offload every day. Compliance is super low.

Despite strong counseling "if you dont stop walking on this you will get an amputation" I really cant get much for compliance with my DFU patient population.

Anyone doing something different?

Felt, boots, crutches, wheel chair, education on why ambulating is bad, etc is just not cutting it.

"No Dr Im not walking on it" As I proceed to shave off 1" thick callus from around the wound.

I tried the football dressing out of Indiana. Didnt work well for me. They got it soaking wet and infected and I didnt get the same results they posted in the article even when the patient was compliant with it.

Ive had TCCs work, but also had them come in soaking wet too many times. Its usually on a saturday and they are calling emergency call line for the clinic wanting me to come change it.

Anything working for anyone else?

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Apply 10 rounds of amniotic grafts weekly and then refer to fellowship trained orthoplastic DPM
 
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Above knee short leg cast in about 30 degrees of flexion.

Superglue the affected limb onto a knee scooter and duct tape their hands onto the handle bars

Ship them off to a wound care center to take over, come back when you’re ready to get it chopped off. TMA and close it.

Go through your roller dex for a local orthoplastic complex limb salvage trained DPM for a possible muscle flap and ex-fix. See ya later.

Hyperbaric O2 7 days a week

QID infusion of IQ-boosting amnio so they remember your instructions better

Home health nurse to monitor patient 24/7 and alert you when they’re walking. Might as well have patient wear a Siren Sock too

All else fails, just chop the leg off. One less foot to worry about.
 
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Hyperbaric O2 7 days a week


All else fails, just chop the leg off. One less foot to worry about.
Hyperbarics have had almost no success in my practice. I just dont think it works.

And I dont like cutting pieces off. Takes hours of my day or night waiting for the add on case to start for minimal reimbursement. Its just not worth it.

- -

Surgical rebalancing is something I didnt discuss above. Can work - or recreate new problems with their non compliance NWB. Especially since their A1c is 12+ most of the time.
 
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Above knee short leg cast in about 30 degrees of flexion.

Superglue the affected limb onto a knee scooter and duct tape their hands onto the handle bars

Ship them off to a wound care center to take over, come back when you’re ready to get it chopped off. TMA and close it.

Go through your roller dex for a local orthoplastic complex limb salvage trained DPM for a possible muscle flap and ex-fix. See ya later.

Hyperbaric O2 7 days a week

QID infusion of IQ-boosting amnio so they remember your instructions better

Home health nurse to monitor patient 24/7 and alert you when they’re walking. Might as well have patient wear a Siren Sock too

All else fails, just chop the leg off. One less foot to worry about.
You have learned the way of SDN fast my friend. Very proud
 
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Create a fellowship in DM wounds with this new found patient load and dump all the Saturday clinic and 2am call responsibilities to the fellow while you and your practice manager wife rake it in!
 
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Yeah, you are already behind the 8 ball when you have any sort of deep wound or any plantar wound... probably already osteo or well on the way if capsule/bone or even plantar muscle is exposed. If it "heals" with a scar, they are ultra high-risk, though. Offloading fast and well asap on first presentation of wound is what matters, debride helps a bit, PO abx for cellulitis... goops and fake grafts or dressings couldn't matter less. I only use topicals to help dry or wet it (usually alcohol perimeter, dry gauze or betadine wet-to-dry to dry it... or baci or mupi or some oint to wet a very dry wound). Inf Dz will laugh in our face if you start talking what abx creams for what pathogens, swab culturing chronic wounds, lol. HBO is also fake as can be... waste of the limited time most wound/amp pts have left.

Top strategy is always prevention. If you have a pt with a DM ulcer who doesn't have DM shoes, you messed up (unless new pt, of course):
Get them all shoes even if they have no wound but any callus, PAD, neuropathy or any deformity (basically just follow research/MCR quals).
Get them custom DM insoles if they have any significant neuropathy or deformity.
Get them custom DM insoles with filler if they've had any more than partial digit amp (for non-DM amps TMA/ray also).

If they have any plantar hemorrhagic callus or superficial ulcer, obviously Rx DM shoes and insoles or new ones, but since that will take awhile, they need something that day. I agree. I have memory foam pre-fabs in my office (I just eat the minimal cost... they save a lot of limbs), or the pt should have their DM shoes and insoles to add to. Add a met pad, dancer pad, etc to their DM liner, one you give, tennis shoe foam or cardboard liner insole, etc. A surgical shoe with its foam base or with the memory foam insole in it or pad added can help too. Flexor tendonotomy for tuft of lesser toe ulcers asap (I usually tell them it's and idea and do it next f/u). I don't find CAM boots or TTC too useful for typical DM ulcers... but I do the CAMS occasionally.

Frankly, I'm also just way too busy for TTC... but it's worth a shot if you have the time and resources and think it'll slow them down. OWL boots are under-utilized and ok if you have a medial or lateral or posterior heel wound or forefoot wound, but you need both a fairly compliant pt and an excellent orthotist who can get them in quick, and like CROW, they're one of those things where the wound might heal or they might have osteo by the time the DME is done and ready for the pt to wear. I try to mostly do stuff that's fast and they might comply with. I did a "Scotch Cast" (Armstrong pub about CAM with fiberglass roll around the straps so they can't take it off), and the pt went for second opinion elsewhere. A lot of things seem ok in a conference or rep pitch or might work on paper (or get green paper for the doc), and that's why I think so many DPMs bumble with futile wound care. Patients aren't stupid. They make bad choices, but they choose for them self. They usually got the way they are by being stubborn and liking Coke and Hersheys and smore and Crocs, and they aren't going to 180 spin now.

For the compliance part, I start talking about "blood positioning" and amputation... some will listen, some won't. Sadly, your best hope with some is that a family member 'gets it' and helps them out... because the pt might have neuropathy between the ears. Follow-up goes to weekly or even bi-weekly for plantar ulcers (I don't trust hardly anyone to change their own wound or post-op dsg). Some phrases that tend to work for me:
"The infection has already taken the tissue, we are just removing it try to save the rest."
"Many, many people have walked right by you on the street missing a toe/foot/leg/etc. You didn't even know because they had a filler/prosthesis and walked pretty regular. You can do just as well if you make your appointments and rehab after the surgery."
"The MRI/XR/culture is clear that the bone has become poisoned." (take any subjective or emo out of it)
"You risk falling into a bad cycle of bandage visits, antibiotics that will hurt your kidneys eventually, and still needing an amp."
"You can take a bit of time to think if you wish. I have been down this road and know where it ends. I want you to have something left to walk on."

CROW for is obvious gold standard for any Charcot or highly likely warm midfoot ("stage 0").... CAM is the stop-gap until CROW is made. I Rx CROW (and custom shoes) for any past Charcot that don't have one... never know when it'll activate again. If it was a rectus foot capsulitis (not stage 0), and you were wrong, no harm done. Again, 99% screwed if you get behind on Charcot and the varus or rocker deformity collapse has begun. Ulcerated Charcot foot for me is TAL +/- amp if a functional shape salvage is available (hallux amp, midfoot fusion, etc), CROW until they get BKA, rarely a hero recon (usually just terrible, horrible, hopeless OR candidates for many reasons).

I am super aggressive with amps. That is the best way to heal and "offload" most deep or plantar DFUs... and get a good deep culture if needed for mop-up abx. I do most of them elective... tell them it can be that way, or they will get amp of more tissue via ER a bit later and also might go into the surgery sick and septic. And I tell the patients I don't take ER call either. :)
I do them early and often for any osteo or ulcer that doesn't respond very fast to good offloading. I will take partial digits (try to leave at least half of prox phalanx), first ray, fifth ray, fourth and fifth ray... otherwise it's TMA. After that is not an option, BKA city. You need something that absolutely gets source control of osteo, ends up DURABLE and easy for a filler insole. That's the goal. They all get custon insoles with filler started as soon as incision and edema allow ~1-2months post. If they don't get filler or understand it's a lifelong need after ray or TMA, you wasted their time and your own.
I used to try first and second ray or 345, but they will ulcer or fracture the remaining adjacent met even with a good filler (some barefoot is inevitable, and just won't work with neuropathy). Ditto for single or multiple met head resections or central ray resects... dumb AF unless it's a veeery minimal ambulator who will crump soon. Met head resects in anyone young-ish or active just creates transfer or crazy toes that will ulcerate elsewhere. Likewise, digit amps across the board (MPJ level) never work... some Gen or Vasc surgeons seem to try that (I sure hope no DPMs!), and I convert them when they start having calluses or ecchymosis despite custom fillers. It's not functional.

Gas is nothing to mess with... need to go highly proximal. Goal is simply to prevent BKA. I have a few I should have taken more, none I think I overdid it. My research in residency confirmed that. I put vanco dry powder in any osteo or gas infected amp. If there is any gas or puncture or anything that compromises your plantar TMA flap skin or intrinsics, you can try open amp and IV abx for a couple days, but it's usually game over... tell pt Vasc Surg will do well for them and move on to the next chart.

Dumb stuff we shouldn't have learned except for boards trivia: the Choparts, Pirgoff, Lisfranc, etc level amps are stupid... "can" vs "should." They don't work for functional ambulation for any amount of time, and they don't work even with the best or orthotist AFO magic afterward. Not at all functional or easy to make filler for. Even assuming you get the great AFO or filler, they will absolutely still go into varus and equinus and get BKA or worse very soon if you can't save the TA and pero brevis insertions (and fix any equinus with gastroc - more commonly need TAL in diabetics). Again, people don't wear the filler and shoes around the house. Trying to do the Chopart, etc with tendon transfers or doing heroic Charcot recons are even dumber than doing the bad non-functional amps without the fluff added on. But some people don't want that cash register to shut off and will graft and debride hopeless amps, or some 'super surgeon' types have to learn the hard way or try to get their RRA numbers for boards or their residents with futile recons and non-functional proximal amps and flaps, I suppose?

...Help who you can, the rest will get their amp. There are some people who are just busy or their PCP didn't explain their DM meds well, and sometimes they will wake up and live a good life after first ray amp or TMA and shoes afterwards. But those sub-cuboid, sub 5th met base, calc osteo, draining central met head to capsule, etc are done for. The nibbled digits with non-functional "Franken-foot" amps are a nightmare of ongoing wound care, bandages, antibiotics, etc by VA docs who don't get it or DPMs trying to "keep the patient." They will get a TMA or BKA, and they will be better off breaking the weekly visit and ongoing major problems cycle. Those patients who have had 5 foot amputations, 10 foot hospital admits, dozens of PO abx, and years of wound care and wound center are sad. Many are actually refreshed when you explain a plan to actually eradicate deformity and osteo, go on with their life with much fewer foot visits. Even if they "heal" non-functional amps, they're going to recur. It wastes the time of the pt, orthotist, family, transportation, other docs, treating doc, and tons of other people and resources. It is no small wonder that 99% of MDs don't want to do this "limb salvage" work and pretend to not understand it. I am so glad that wound/amp is ~10% of my practice now and not a third or half as at prior offices. I believe I do it well and it is technically not hard, but it doesn't pay well and it takes extensive conversation and babysitting of aftercare do well (many post-op visits, Rx DME, coordinate with ID and Vasc and PCP, etc).

Don't worry too much about it, tho. Fix who you can and consider the rest a win if they get ray/TMA + TAL and custom DM shoes instead of BKA. :thumbup:
 
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I've got one with a hammertoe with distal tip ulcer (DM, PAD, CKD). She declines a diabetic shoe because she doesn't like the style. She declines a flexor tenotomy unless I make it an inpatient stay with 3 day observation for "potential bleeding out and cardiovascular complications" as told to her by her friend with no medical training. She went to her pcp who said there is no ulceration at the toe. I urged her to get a second podiatrist opinion or go to wound care center but she refuses. Tough situation, I think I'm going to end the relationship.
 
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I pull the trigger sooner on surgery than I did in the past for the procedures that I think will work ie. flexor tenotomies, Kellers, isolated metatarsal head resections, panmetatarsal head resections, gastrocnemius recession etc.

I think the amazing thing is the patient who

(a) was sent to you for surgery
(b) has had the ulcer for years
(c) who you discuss surgery with
and who then no shows the "paperwork" visit.

Probably dodged a bullet when that happens.
 
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Wrote my post the other day but I see Feli has posted since then. I'm comfortable with the metatarsal head resections I've done. I think I'm also seeing honestly lower acuity than a lot of other people are. Like I barely have any Charcot walking in. Metatarsal head resections where the ortho at the county hospital has already shortened one of the rays back to the midfoot - yeah, nothing is going to work except TMA. Isolated or pan on functional people with jobs, no CKD, etc have served me well.
 
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I pull the trigger sooner on surgery than I did in the past for the procedures that I think will work ie. flexor tenotomies, Kellers, isolated metatarsal head resections, panmetatarsal head resections, gastrocnemius recession etc.

I think the amazing thing is the patient who

(a) was sent to you for surgery
(b) has had the ulcer for years
(c) who you discuss surgery with
and who then no shows the "paperwork" visit.

Probably dodged a bullet when that happens.
Happens so often...I always feel the same way--I rarely work with them to reschedule (unless it was some really valid reason they missed)...find someone else to repeat the cycle with.
 
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I now do MIS floating osteotomies for those submet wounds with immediate wb in cam or postop shoe. Seems to have better outcomes in terms of transfer lesions than a full on met head resection.
 
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I now do MIS floating osteotomies for those submet wounds with immediate wb in cam or postop shoe. Seems to have better outcomes in terms of transfer lesions than a full on met head resection.
Have started doing more floating osteotomies as well. Vertical cut small incision. Doing these now instead of met head resections.

Do flexor tenotomy all the time, just 18 gauge needle I don't have time for suture and dressing. Bandaid maybe a little more if bleeding no follow up.
 
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Have started doing more floating osteotomies as well. Vertical cut small incision. Doing these now instead of met head resections.

Do flexor tenotomy all the time, just 18 gauge needle I don't have time for suture and dressing. Bandaid maybe a little more if bleeding no follow up.
This is the way! ^^^

I do same... 18ga, usually small forefoot kling bandage wrap (mostly to hold toe or toes in dorsiflex) and surgical shoe for a few days, then they do band aid and no soak after they take it off. I make a f/u appt (usually something contralat I can break global for), but they are usually fine after that. I've only had one or two who needed Keflex at f/u... usually since they couldn't resisist and soaked against instruction.

I do IPJ lesser toe amps in office sometimes. Not my favorite, but if they have sketch health for OR, it can work for osteo of tuft. Gone = offloaded.
 
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This is the way! ^^^

I do same... 18ga, usually small forefoot kling bandage wrap (mostly to hold toe or toes in dorsiflex) and surgical shoe for a few days, then they do band aid and no soak after they take it off. I make a f/u appt (usually something contralat I can break global for), but they are usually fine after that. I've only had one or two who needed Keflex at f/u... usually since they couldn't resisist and soaked against instruction.

I do IPJ lesser toe amps in office sometimes. Not my favorite, but if they have sketch health for OR, it can work for osteo of tuft. Gone = offloaded.
I always do 3 days keflex to follow tenotomies. The way I see it flexor tenotomy and capsulotomy should be treated like an open fracture. It helps me sleep at night anyway. I see them at 1 week and ive never had problems (even in the select few who didnt take the keflex).
 
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I now do MIS floating osteotomies for those submet wounds with immediate wb in cam or postop shoe. Seems to have better outcomes in terms of transfer lesions than a full on met head resection.
Ive been doing these too. They went out of favor for awhile there (More for elective sub met pain/callus) but they do work for DFUs.

Hard part is getting them cleared for "elective" surgery through PCP in time or just in general.

Do you guys clear these yourself? I dont. Too high risk IMO. We lost a DFU patient in residency on the table so i've been spooked ever since.

Though that patient was going to die - it was pretty dire situation.
 
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Ive been doing these too. They went out of favor for awhile there (More for elective sub met pain/callus) but they do work for DFUs.

Hard part is getting them cleared for "elective" surgery through PCP in time or just in general.

Do you guys clear these yourself? I dont. Too high risk IMO. We lost a DFU patient in residency on the table so i've been spooked ever since.

Though that patient was going to die - it was pretty dire situation.
I clear them myself unless there's a known cardiac issue...or if they are obviously a train wreck with a laundry list of meds--or if I just have some nagging feeling like I should get their PCP to clear them...otherwise, I have no problem.
 
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Yeah, you are already behind the 8 ball when you have any sort of deep wound or any plantar wound... probably already osteo or well on the way if capsule/bone or even plantar muscle is exposed. If it "heals" with a scar, they are ultra high-risk, though. Offloading fast and well asap on first presentation of wound is what matters, debride helps a bit, PO abx for cellulitis... goops and fake grafts or dressings couldn't matter less. I only use topicals to help dry or wet it (usually alcohol perimeter, dry gauze or betadine wet-to-dry to dry it... or baci or mupi or some oint to wet a very dry wound). Inf Dz will laugh in our face if you start talking what abx creams for what pathogens, swab culturing chronic wounds, lol. HBO is also fake as can be... waste of the limited time most wound/amp pts have left.

Top strategy is always prevention. If you have a pt with a DM ulcer who doesn't have DM shoes, you messed up (unless new pt, of course):
Get them all shoes even if they have no wound but any callus, PAD, neuropathy or any deformity (basically just follow research/MCR quals).
Get them custom DM insoles if they have any significant neuropathy or deformity.
Get them custom DM insoles with filler if they've had any more than partial digit amp (for non-DM amps TMA/ray also).

If they have any plantar hemorrhagic callus or superficial ulcer, obviously Rx DM shoes and insoles or new ones, but since that will take awhile, they need something that day. I agree. I have memory foam pre-fabs in my office (I just eat the minimal cost... they save a lot of limbs), or the pt should have their DM shoes and insoles to add to. Add a met pad, dancer pad, etc to their DM liner, one you give, tennis shoe foam or cardboard liner insole, etc. A surgical shoe with its foam base or with the memory foam insole in it or pad added can help too. Flexor tendonotomy for tuft of lesser toe ulcers asap (I usually tell them it's and idea and do it next f/u). I don't find CAM boots or TTC too useful for typical DM ulcers... but I do the CAMS occasionally.

Frankly, I'm also just way too busy for TTC... but it's worth a shot if you have the time and resources and think it'll slow them down. OWL boots are under-utilized and ok if you have a medial or lateral or posterior heel wound or forefoot wound, but you need both a fairly compliant pt and an excellent orthotist who can get them in quick, and like CROW, they're one of those things where the wound might heal or they might have osteo by the time the DME is done and ready for the pt to wear. I try to mostly do stuff that's fast and they might comply with. I did a "Scotch Cast" (Armstrong pub about CAM with fiberglass roll around the straps so they can't take it off), and the pt went for second opinion elsewhere. A lot of things seem ok in a conference or rep pitch or might work on paper (or get green paper for the doc), and that's why I think so many DPMs bumble with futile wound care. Patients aren't stupid. They make bad choices, but they choose for them self. They usually got the way they are by being stubborn and liking Coke and Hersheys and smore and Crocs, and they aren't going to 180 spin now.

For the compliance part, I start talking about "blood positioning" and amputation... some will listen, some won't. Sadly, your best hope with some is that a family member 'gets it' and helps them out... because the pt might have neuropathy between the ears. Follow-up goes to weekly or even bi-weekly for plantar ulcers (I don't trust hardly anyone to change their own wound or post-op dsg). Some phrases that tend to work for me:
"The infection has already taken the tissue, we are just removing it try to save the rest."
"Many, many people have walked right by you on the street missing a toe/foot/leg/etc. You didn't even know because they had a filler/prosthesis and walked pretty regular. You can do just as well if you make your appointments and rehab after the surgery."
"The MRI/XR/culture is clear that the bone has become poisoned." (take any subjective or emo out of it)
"You risk falling into a bad cycle of bandage visits, antibiotics that will hurt your kidneys eventually, and still needing an amp."
"You can take a bit of time to think if you wish. I have been down this road and know where it ends. I want you to have something left to walk on."

CROW for is obvious gold standard for any Charcot or highly likely warm midfoot ("stage 0").... CAM is the stop-gap until CROW is made. I Rx CROW (and custom shoes) for any past Charcot that don't have one... never know when it'll activate again. If it was a rectus foot capsulitis (not stage 0), and you were wrong, no harm done. Again, 99% screwed if you get behind on Charcot and the varus or rocker deformity collapse has begun. Ulcerated Charcot foot for me is TAL +/- amp if a functional shape salvage is available (hallux amp, midfoot fusion, etc), CROW until they get BKA, rarely a hero recon (usually just terrible, horrible, hopeless OR candidates for many reasons).

I am super aggressive with amps. That is the best way to heal and "offload" most deep or plantar DFUs... and get a good deep culture if needed for mop-up abx. I do most of them elective... tell them it can be that way, or they will get amp of more tissue via ER a bit later and also might go into the surgery sick and septic. And I tell the patients I don't take ER call either. :)
I do them early and often for any osteo or ulcer that doesn't respond very fast to good offloading. I will take partial digits (try to leave at least half of prox phalanx), first ray, fifth ray, fourth and fifth ray... otherwise it's TMA. After that is not an option, BKA city. You need something that absolutely gets source control of osteo, ends up DURABLE and easy for a filler insole. That's the goal. They all get custon insoles with filler started as soon as incision and edema allow ~1-2months post. If they don't get filler or understand it's a lifelong need after ray or TMA, you wasted their time and your own.
I used to try first and second ray or 345, but they will ulcer or fracture the remaining adjacent met even with a good filler (some barefoot is inevitable, and just won't work with neuropathy). Ditto for single or multiple met head resections or central ray resects... dumb AF unless it's a veeery minimal ambulator who will crump soon. Met head resects in anyone young-ish or active just creates transfer or crazy toes that will ulcerate elsewhere. Likewise, digit amps across the board (MPJ level) never work... some Gen or Vasc surgeons seem to try that (I sure hope no DPMs!), and I convert them when they start having calluses or ecchymosis despite custom fillers. It's not functional.

Gas is nothing to mess with... need to go highly proximal. Goal is simply to prevent BKA. I have a few I should have taken more, none I think I overdid it. My research in residency confirmed that. I put vanco dry powder in any osteo or gas infected amp. If there is any gas or puncture or anything that compromises your plantar TMA flap skin or intrinsics, you can try open amp and IV abx for a couple days, but it's usually game over... tell pt Vasc Surg will do well for them and move on to the next chart.

Dumb stuff we shouldn't have learned except for boards trivia: the Choparts, Pirgoff, Lisfranc, etc level amps are stupid... "can" vs "should." They don't work for functional ambulation for any amount of time, and they don't work even with the best or orthotist AFO magic afterward. Not at all functional or easy to make filler for. Even assuming you get the great AFO or filler, they will absolutely still go into varus and equinus and get BKA or worse very soon if you can't save the TA and pero brevis insertions (and fix any equinus with gastroc - more commonly need TAL in diabetics). Again, people don't wear the filler and shoes around the house. Trying to do the Chopart, etc with tendon transfers or doing heroic Charcot recons are even dumber than doing the bad non-functional amps without the fluff added on. But some people don't want that cash register to shut off and will graft and debride hopeless amps, or some 'super surgeon' types have to learn the hard way or try to get their RRA numbers for boards or their residents with futile recons and non-functional proximal amps and flaps, I suppose?

...Help who you can, the rest will get their amp. There are some people who are just busy or their PCP didn't explain their DM meds well, and sometimes they will wake up and live a good life after first ray amp or TMA and shoes afterwards. But those sub-cuboid, sub 5th met base, calc osteo, draining central met head to capsule, etc are done for. The nibbled digits with non-functional "Franken-foot" amps are a nightmare of ongoing wound care, bandages, antibiotics, etc by VA docs who don't get it or DPMs trying to "keep the patient." They will get a TMA or BKA, and they will be better off breaking the weekly visit and ongoing major problems cycle. Those patients who have had 5 foot amputations, 10 foot hospital admits, dozens of PO abx, and years of wound care and wound center are sad. Many are actually refreshed when you explain a plan to actually eradicate deformity and osteo, go on with their life with much fewer foot visits. Even if they "heal" non-functional amps, they're going to recur. It wastes the time of the pt, orthotist, family, transportation, other docs, treating doc, and tons of other people and resources. It is no small wonder that 99% of MDs don't want to do this "limb salvage" work and pretend to not understand it. I am so glad that wound/amp is ~10% of my practice now and not a third or half as at prior offices. I believe I do it well and it is technically not hard, but it doesn't pay well and it takes extensive conversation and babysitting of aftercare do well (many post-op visits, Rx DME, coordinate with ID and Vasc and PCP, etc).

Don't worry too much about it, tho. Fix who you can and consider the rest a win if they get ray/TMA + TAL and custom DM shoes instead of BKA. :thumbup:
I really like the prefab you mentioned that you carry in your office. Even for an open wound where the patient is clearly non compliant and going to walk I could see benefit from this.

I havent used OWL boots and forgot they existed. Im going to look back into those. The Armstrong instant TCC didnt work for the clinic I was in as a resident. Patients still took them off but it is an option. Ruins a CAM boot but probably cheaper than the TCC cast kits.

I also think its interesting that you Rx CROW boots for non active (I assume ulcer free) charcot in case they re-charcot out. I get the premise here. I dont think its a bad idea and lets be honest anyone with a charcot foot is almost certainly going to ulcerate again.
 
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I clear them myself unless there's a known cardiac issue...or if they are obviously a train wreck with a laundry list of meds--or if I just have some nagging feeling like I should get their PCP to clear them...otherwise, I have no problem.
Most of them are train wrecks though. If they need elective surgery to rebalance an ulcer they almost certainly have some form of cardiac disease with a laundry list of problems. Again I'm probably just spooked from that experience. I clear elective cases myself. But DFUs I usually try to boot the responsibility of medical management to someone other than myself.
 
Ok lesser toe amps - I HATE partial toes. Nothing or the whole thing. Maybe I just don't know how to properly do a amp of half a 4th toe

And yeah doing a lot more gastrocs and floating weil's, walk right away in a boot and problems go away.
 
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Ive been doing these too. They went out of favor for awhile there (More for elective sub met pain/callus) but they do work for DFUs.

Hard part is getting them cleared for "elective" surgery through PCP in time or just in general.

Do you guys clear these yourself? I dont. Too high risk IMO. We lost a DFU patient in residency on the table so i've been spooked ever since.

Though that patient was going to die - it was pretty dire situation.
I don't do the medical eval/risk stratification by myself. I always have their PCP do it, most of them are unhealthy enough that it warrants it.

Regarding lesser toe amps, I think that partial are better than total assuming it's indicated. Keeping the proximal phalanx or at least the of the proximal phalanx helps prevents transverse deviation.

I kind of have an algorithm based on anatomic location:
Distal tip of toe: flexor tenotomy with 18G (clinic)
Sub hallux IPJ ulcer: selective medial band plantar fasciotomy with 18G (clinic)
Sub 1st met: peroneus longus lengthening (OR)
Sub lesser met: MIS floating osteotomy (OR)


For offloading, evidence shows that postop shoes are nearly useless unless it's a distal tip of a lesser toe. CAM boot or TCC. Everyone that qualifies gets extra depth shoes and accommodative inserts.
 
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Have had success with this boot as an alternative to TCC as long as the patient is compliant and willing to pay for it
 
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Most of them are train wrecks though. If they need elective surgery to rebalance an ulcer they almost certainly have some form of cardiac disease with a laundry list of problems. Again I'm probably just spooked from that experience. I clear elective cases myself. But DFUs I usually try to boot the responsibility of medical management to someone other than myself.
My hospital's anesthesia department is pretty good about telling me if they're spooked at all during the pre-op. Their radar is usually pretty well aligned with mine, and sometimes much better. If they're concerned, they'll just ask me if it's OK to just barely do a MAC and I block them. Anyways, maybe I haven't had enough bad experiences to be skittish :)

In my opinion, leaving a hole in their foot is much riskier than performing a 20 minute or less procedure to get rid of said hole.
 
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I don't do the medical eval/risk stratification by myself. I always have their PCP do it, most of them are unhealthy enough that it warrants it.

Regarding lesser toe amps, I think that partial are better than total assuming it's indicated. Keeping the proximal phalanx or at least the of the proximal phalanx helps prevents transverse deviation.

I kind of have an algorithm based on anatomic location:
Distal tip of toe: flexor tenotomy with 18G (clinic)
Sub hallux IPJ ulcer: selective medial band plantar fasciotomy with 18G (clinic)
Sub 1st met: peroneus longus lengthening (OR)
Sub lesser met: MIS floating osteotomy (OR)


For offloading, evidence shows that postop shoes are nearly useless unless it's a distal tip of a lesser toe. CAM boot or TCC. Everyone that qualifies gets extra depth shoes and accommodative inserts.

I have done a 18g perc medial band PF and maybe PL (?) in clinic and worked fine.

Insurances won’t cover DM shoes and plastizote inserts anymore and patients refuse to pay cash for plastizote inserts which is what I want them to get the most. They don’t feel $100 is worth it versus possibly losing their foot. I give up
 
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...Regarding lesser toe amps, I think that partial are better than total assuming it's indicated. Keeping the proximal phalanx or at least the of the proximal phalanx helps prevents transverse deviation...
Yes^^^... MPJ level is not functional... sub met pressure, transverse devi of other toes.

...For offloading, evidence shows that postop shoes are nearly useless unless it's a distal tip of a lesser toe. CAM boot or TCC. Everyone that qualifies gets extra depth shoes and accommodative inserts.
Correct, but the surgical shoe is a decent carrier for a prefab insole and/or met pad until the 2 months or more until the DM shoes.

Most people come in sandals, too tight Converse, Sketchers if it's up to airbud, etc... no way to get hardly even a met pad, much less a true foam layer, into there.

Evidence? No. Functional carrier for padding and wider or softer or just much better than a mal-fitting shoe they walked in with? Definitely. It's a stop gap, 100%.... but a lot of bad stuff can happen in the months between my Rx shoes and the shoes actually being available.
 
Sub hallux IPJ ulcer: selective medial band plantar fasciotomy with 18G (clinic)
I like this idea. Ive heard of it but never done it. Im going to look into it more. Especially since its able to be done in office.

Glad I started this thread. Sometimes I get pigeon holed.
 
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And I'm with Airbud. I tend to amp the whole toe/level MTPJ.

I have had too many return to ORs for failed partial toes. The toes just dont have great blood flow in a lot of patients and they fail to heal way too often, at least in my experience.
Also i've had problems leaving a little nub. The nub rubs on adjacent toes or collects moisture and ulcerates.

I havent had may issues with amp at MTPJ other than flexor contraction/hammertoes.
I started doing percutaneous tenotomies in the OR of the lesser toes at time of amputation to prevent this
 
I did a flexor tenotomy and dispensed postop shoe, she immediately fell and broke femur because she wasn't used to postop shoe. I used to never think twice about dispensing a postop shoe to elderly patients, now I'm more cautious.
 
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I did a flexor tenotomy and dispensed postop shoe, she immediately fell and broke femur because she wasn't used to postop shoe. I used to never think twice about dispensing a postop shoe to elderly patients, now I'm more cautious.
I have had some elderly falls too with normal post op shoes.

I will never Rx the cutout forefoot shoes. They fall and the study I read in the past they dont do anything to reduce pressure forefoot (very marginal decrease).
 

Have had success with this boot as an alternative to TCC as long as the patient is compliant and willing to pay for it
I have never heard of this. I am assuming insurance does not cover?
 
To be clear, the plantar fascia release is for sub-hallux, not sub-1st metatarsal ulcerations. The ideal candidate for this is someone who is at least middle-aged, doesn't walk 10,000 steps per day, and does not have a severe pes planus or charcot collapsed foot. They have an exam consistent with functional hallux limitus and not have a big dorsal exostosis that would block 1st MTPJ DF.

Since you are only cutting the medial band, you have less issues of foot arch collapse, lateral overloading, etc that you may get with a traditional PF release at the heel in which you often cut 50% or more of the central band in addition to 100% of the medial band.

My technique involves a 5cc proximal V-block. With your less dominant hand, you activate the windlass mechanism by DF the hallux while putting counterpressure on the medial band of the plantar fascia. With your dominant hand, you insert the 18G needle in the midfoot, usually around the base of the 1st metatarsal where the plantar fascia is easily palpable subcutaneously. You then use the sharp bevel of the 18G needle to cut the medial band of the plantar fascia. It usually takes about 20 or so swipes. You can easily check to see if you successfully completed the procedure by DF the hallux and palpating to see if you can feel any remaining fibers. Dressing is antibiotic ointment and a bandaid. I will often put them on prophylactic abx for 3-5 days, given that these patients are usually immunocompromised and may soak their foot, etc. They are placed in a CAM boot and allowed to immediately WB.

I see them back in 2 weeks and usually the ulcer is already smaller, and by 6 weeks it's usually fully healed. These are typically chronic ulcers that have been bothering them for 6-12 months. I haven't had any recurrences in the 7 or 8 that I have done even months after they transition back to regular shoes.
 
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I have never heard of this. I am assuming insurance does not cover?
In my (albeit limited) experience they do not...although the company claims that some insurances will reimburse under L4361.
 
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I don't do the medical eval/risk stratification by myself. I always have their PCP do it, most of them are unhealthy enough that it warrants it.

Regarding lesser toe amps, I think that partial are better than total assuming it's indicated. Keeping the proximal phalanx or at least the of the proximal phalanx helps prevents transverse deviation.

I kind of have an algorithm based on anatomic location:
Distal tip of toe: flexor tenotomy with 18G (clinic)
Sub hallux IPJ ulcer: selective medial band plantar fasciotomy with 18G (clinic)
Sub 1st met: peroneus longus lengthening (OR)
Sub lesser met: MIS floating osteotomy (OR)


For offloading, evidence shows that postop shoes are nearly useless unless it's a distal tip of a lesser toe. CAM boot or TCC. Everyone that qualifies gets extra depth shoes and accommodative inserts.
Interesting. Sub HIPJ I go to OR for arthroplasty. Pin with 2 wires for maybe 3 weeks in post-op shoe then pull and good to go. And you are actually lengthing PL as opposed to just transectiing and letting it fly? That is what I have done a few times.
 
And this is a good note for people coming out trying to create job positions for them, limb salvage like this is truly a surgical subspecialty it's not potions and lotions and boots. Where I am now there is nobody doing any type of wound care other than physical therapists who don't know what they're doing. There's no general surgeons doing it there's no retired ER docs that are working a day a week in a wound care center. It's me or some physical therapist scraping some stuff with a wet gauze. And so I explain things to people that sure they may be able to get a wound closed but my goal is how to prevent it from coming back. And that is how Lim salvage is a surgical subspecialty. These are minimal cost high profit surgeries for an ASC or a hospital. You're just removing stuff and closing skin up no hardware other than maybe some k wires to hold stuff in place this makes a ton of money for these places and justifies you being there.

Limb salvage the large majority of the time is not charcot recons and supermalleolar osteotomies etc it's little stuff like this.
 
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Interesting. Sub HIPJ I go to OR for arthroplasty. Pin with 2 wires for maybe 3 weeks in post-op shoe then pull and good to go. And you are actually lengthing PL as opposed to just transectiing and letting it fly? That is what I have done a few times.
Arthroplasty is definitely a viable option. The main reason why I like the medial band PF is that I can do it in the office and there is no incision to worry about healing. And if this doesn't work, I can always do the more aggressive arthroplasty.

I do an actual z-lengthening of the PL. I make about a 2-3cm incision behind the posterior fibula, and do my tendon Z cut. Then I push up on the 1st met so that it is clinically less plantarflexed and you will find that the tendon is sitting with typically about 5-10mm of lengthening, at which point you can get your exact tension/length you want. The other thing I've thought about doing is doing a PL recession up at the myotendinous junction like they do with peds cases and just separate some of the muscle fibers from the tendon so that I don't need any sutures. I haven't done this yet, but am considering doing it on my next one.
 
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Z-lengthening of the longus is an interesting thought. I usually just tenotomize and suture the longus to the brevis and haven't had issues with that.
 
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Great posts here. Y’all should come together and start a true limb salvage fellowship that is worthwhile with NEW, tried and true techniques that does not involve jams and jellies. Then again, all these consultants for Grafix, EpiFix, WhateverFix will lose their monies.
 
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Just had a patient. Elderly lady, Hammered hallux IPJ with distal tip wound for a long time. Rigid. Signing her up for a IPJ fusion/Keller with probably 2 k wires, don’t want to put a screw through the ulcer hole. Perc tenotomy her lesser hammer toes.
 
Just had a patient. Elderly lady, Hammered hallux IPJ with distal tip wound for a long time. Rigid. Signing her up for a IPJ fusion/Keller with probably 2 k wires, don’t want to put a screw through the ulcer hole. Perc tenotomy her lesser hammer toes.
Staple? I have crap fusion rates with K wires (from residency experience)
 
Great posts here. Y’all should come together and start a true limb salvage fellowship that is worthwhile with NEW, tried and true techniques that does not involve jams and jellies. Then again, all these consultants for Grafix, EpiFix, WhateverFix will lose their monies.
It is tough.

Limb salvage is super easy, but it's such a burnout thing. Sure, you need good surgical principles, but they're mostly "first year cases" for good reason.

As an attending, the inpatient rounding and work is rough hours and the call very bad if working hosp. The reimbursement is pretty terrible for PP... its' hardly viable without the graft hocus pocus. Like I said, MDs could easily take the niche, but there's good logic as to why 99.9% don't want it.

It'd only be viable with a group of well-trained ppl who are dedicated to it (MedStar, a few VAs, etc)... and most well-trained DPMs want to do more sports, ortho, etc cases than they do wound/salvage. Limb salvage is nothing you don't learn at most good residencies (and in the first half of them), though. If there are any fellowships worthwhile, it has to be for the truly rare or tough stuff... advanced elective recon, high energy trauma, peds, etc.

The job I tried to get out of residency was high level hosp employ limb salvage... group of vasc surgeons, one pretty good DPM from Kaiser, getting help for him. He had taught them offloading and helped enable some big saves. My class's valedictorian who did an elite residency took the job, did well, worked like a resident... they tried to add me a year or two later with another position approved. I declined, he burned out after a few years and left for PP. You can only do so many TMAs, diabetic ankle fx, Charcot, osteo, gas cases, 0530 rounds, weekends before you tap out.
 
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Do you guys clear these yourself? I dont. Too high risk IMO. We lost a DFU patient in residency on the table so i've been spooked ever since.

I clear virtually all my own patients. But I do hate that word because You aren’t really “clearing” anyone. You are stratifying their risk of having cardiac complications in response to anesthesia. Go ahead and read some PCP notes for the pre-op H&P, they are usually a joke. The only argument IMO to send them for pre-op is to have them optimize the patient from a nutrition, blood glucose, etc standpoint. But Ive never had someone do that well, they aren’t “optimizing” crap. Patients with heart disease without cardiologist will get sent to PCP purely for liability reasons (r/o need for further cardiac workup), patients with a cardiologist get seen by cards before surgery.

You should never have a complication intra-op with a neuropathic diabetic wound case. They don’t need any anesthesia. Versed isn’t going to stop their heart. It’s anesthesia’s fault if they have issues in a neuropathic patient. Or your fault for not communicating to them that the patient doesn’t need any propofol.

Do perc flexor tenotomies (no abx), medial band fasciotomies, perc floating met osteotomies, PL tenotomy (save yourself the effort and let that baby fly), less often I do gastroc recessions and even less often TALs. Have had a couple of rigid hallux hammertoes with distal tip ulcers recently and have done perc IPJ fusions (stryker MIS burr and cannulated screw or screws depending on wound location, crossing if distal tip and straight down the pipe if wound is plantar enough or if hx of wound and chronic callus/pre-ulcerative). This thread is way less depressing than the ones about associate jobs…
 
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Its entirely anecdotal, but I try to classify my 1st ray wounds based on what I think the reason is. I haven't created a NY Foot Typing system yet.

-IPJ extension contracture plantar IPJ wounds. Oblique view sometimes shows the extension on x-ray but this is mostly clinical. IPJ fusion.
-Limitus at the MPJ. Keller
-Hallux Valgus instability / loss of toe purchase ulcers. Probably 1st MPJ fusion.
-Overall foot instability plantar medial hallux ulcers (there's an old PI Institute article with good pictures of this). I sometimes worry that if I miss this that a Keller would lead to further instability of the foot. Orthotic?
-Plantarflexed 1st ray. Probably throw the kitchen sink at it.
-I feel like directly sub-beneath the metatarsal head can have a diverse number of causes.

My least favorite ulcer location is - 5th metatarsal base.
 
Its entirely anecdotal, but I try to classify my 1st ray wounds based on what I think the reason is. I haven't created a NY Foot Typing system yet.

-IPJ extension contracture plantar IPJ wounds. Oblique view sometimes shows the extension on x-ray but this is mostly clinical. IPJ fusion.
-Limitus at the MPJ. Keller
-Hallux Valgus instability / loss of toe purchase ulcers. Probably 1st MPJ fusion.
-Overall foot instability plantar medial hallux ulcers (there's an old PI Institute article with good pictures of this). I sometimes worry that if I miss this that a Keller would lead to further instability of the foot. Orthotic?
-Plantarflexed 1st ray. Probably throw the kitchen sink at it.
-I feel like directly sub-beneath the metatarsal head can have a diverse number of causes.

My least favorite ulcer location is - 5th metatarsal base.
styloid process ulcer/osteo is the end of the foot in too many cases.

I have done total 5th ray resection with transfer brevis to cuboid using biotenodesis anchors with good success.

I stage it.

Stage 1: remove infected bone and insert beads, vanc powder, etc. I tag the brevis tendon and just let it sit. Stitch it closed. Let them marinate IV abx.

Stage 2: 3-5 days later come back and drill into cuboid/transfer brevis.
 
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I clear virtually all my own patients. But I do hate that word because You aren’t really “clearing” anyone. You are stratifying their risk of having cardiac complications in response to anesthesia. Go ahead and read some PCP notes for the pre-op H&P, they are usually a joke. The only argument IMO to send them for pre-op is to have them optimize the patient from a nutrition, blood glucose, etc standpoint. But Ive never had someone do that well, they aren’t “optimizing” crap. Patients with heart disease without cardiologist will get sent to PCP purely for liability reasons (r/o need for further cardiac workup), patients with a cardiologist get seen by cards before surgery.

You should never have a complication intra-op with a neuropathic diabetic wound case. They don’t need any anesthesia. Versed isn’t going to stop their heart. It’s anesthesia’s fault if they have issues in a neuropathic patient. Or your fault for not communicating to them that the patient doesn’t need any propofol.

Do perc flexor tenotomies (no abx), medial band fasciotomies, perc floating met osteotomies, PL tenotomy (save yourself the effort and let that baby fly), less often I do gastroc recessions and even less often TALs. Have had a couple of rigid hallux hammertoes with distal tip ulcers recently and have done perc IPJ fusions (stryker MIS burr and cannulated screw or screws depending on wound location, crossing if distal tip and straight down the pipe if wound is plantar enough or if hx of wound and chronic callus/pre-ulcerative). This thread is way less depressing than the ones about associate jobs…
I agree with everything. My opinion wont hold up in court on medical stability if they get aspiration pneumonia, cardiac arrest, etc.

Do you ever run into anesthesia that for whatever reason doesnt want to do MAC for diabetic cases? In residency tons of MAC. Where I am now its like pulling teeth to get a MAC even with discussion with anesthesia that there is no need for a popliteal block or deep anesthesia due to neuropathy. Its like they skipped the diabetic foot/neuropathy chapter in medical school. (generalizing - not all).
 
I agree with everything. My opinion wont hold up in court on medical stability if they get aspiration pneumonia, cardiac arrest, etc.

Do you ever run into anesthesia that for whatever reason doesnt want to do MAC for diabetic cases? In residency tons of MAC. Where I am now its like pulling teeth to get a MAC even with discussion with anesthesia that there is no need for a popliteal block or deep anesthesia due to neuropathy. Its like they skipped the diabetic foot/neuropathy chapter in medical school. (generalizing - not all).

I’ve seen the reverse. Anesthesia doesn’t want to do any deep sedation for any of my diabetic patients and just wants MAC and local foot blocks. MAC is done the majority of time with exception to big recons
 
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I’ve seen the reverse. Anesthesia doesn’t want to do any deep sedation for any of my diabetic patients and just wants MAC and local foot block. This is on the majority of time with exception to big recons
This is how it should be
 
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