Obama's health care plan affect on physician salaries

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Dr.Millisevert said:
Then they should make all state universities free or close to it for all degrees. Public universites are more expensive now than private universities used to be. Also, get rid of out of state extra charges. All citizens should be able to attend any US public university for free or close to free.

Other 1st world nations do this... Why can't we? Education is valuable and helps the nation and society. If salaries go down and tuition and malpractice keep going up... Our most educated will leave for better opportunities elsewhere. Why should they stay and work hard.. Only to get raped for their efforts? The US is appearantly no longer the land of opportunity it once was. The US will start to experience a brain drain. This isn't good for anyone!!
Click to expand...

Ignoring for a moment the fallacy of "free" anything... the bolded portions are indicative of the trend that we are on -- but this is because of federal intervention, not for the lack of it. The "brain drain" that will result has been predicted for years -- we are watching Atlas Shrug... and the libtards welcome it (are blind to the repercussions, choosing to rely on perceived power and coercion as means to deal with problems).
Members don't see this ad.
 
Dr.Millisevert said:
I would bet the majority of applicants disagree with you on this point!

Give me a US federal funded US accredited (MD) medical school and place it anywhere in the United States (doesn't even have to be in a desirable place to live in the US.. middle of dirty, cold, rural United States somewhere would be just fine...) and make the total tuition for the entire course only $5k-20k out of pocket to the students and I'll bet that school will have double the number of applicants than ANY current US medical school. :cool:
Click to expand...

Well, let's do a little poll to see how many people agree with me versus you... If you want the government to pay for your education and then you can be a government employee in return, working for whatever they dictate your services to be worth, please raise your hand now... Before you vote on that, Google "German physician salaries" and enjoy some interesting reading about that.
 
Lokhtar said:
Higher education at public universities should be free (or close to it) anyway.
Click to expand...

And what will the tax rate need to be to pay for all that? Or are magicians Pelosi, Obama, and Co. just going to snap their fingers and make everything in the whole wide world FREE for everyone? You libs are so naive about so many things.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Dr.Millisevert said:
Other 1st world nations do this... Why can't we? Education is valuable and helps the nation and society. If salaries go down and tuition and malpractice keep going up... Our most educated will leave for better opportunities elsewhere.
Click to expand...

Hah, dude, your arguments aren't making any sense here. In one breath you gripe about physician salaries being flat for 20 years. Then, you act like government-run medicine, education, and government run everything else is the answer. Have you looked to see what physicians get paid in some of these other 1st world nations you're talking about? They get paid LESS than physicians in America, not more. Like I said, Google "German physician salaries" and tell me that their system of government dictated education, healthcare, etc, is working for them. And you think the current healthcare plans with a public option are going to help to recruit and retain physician talent? Honestly, I've already heard quite a few physicians near retirement age who said they will outright quit if they have to work under a public option.
 
RGMSU said:
Well, let's do a little poll to see how many people agree with me versus you... If you want the government to pay for your education and then you can be a government employee in return, working for whatever they dictate your services to be worth, please raise your hand now... Before you vote on that, Google "German physician salaries" and enjoy some interesting reading about that.
Click to expand...

We may all be gov employees regardless if the US gets a public system. If we both have low salaries.. At least I won't be in debt!!
 
RGMSU said:
Have you looked to see what physicians get paid in some of these other 1st world nations you're talking about? They get paid LESS than physicians in America, not more.
Click to expand...

ummm. Yes, BUT they the don't have debt and little or no malpractice. If your cash inflow is 100k/yr and your outflow is 40k/yr.. And my inflow is 80k/yr but everything I make goes into my pocket.. Then I make more than you. Taxes in Cali are already close to what doctors are paying in taxes in many areas of Europe.
 
RGMSU said:
Well, let's do a little poll to see how many people agree with me versus you... If you want the government to pay for your education and then you can be a government employee in return, working for whatever they dictate your services to be worth, please raise your hand now... Before you vote on that, Google "German physician salaries" and enjoy some interesting reading about that.
Click to expand...

While we are doing polls lets poll future citizens of the US to see how many favor paying incredible taxes to pay for the healthcare etc. for people from our time.

Lets also poll ethicists to see how ethical it is to rob the unborn future generations with no chance to defend themselves and no way to vote against the robbery.
 
nolagas said:
While we are doing polls lets poll future citizens of the US to see how many favor paying incredible taxes to pay for the healthcare etc. for people from our time.

Lets also poll ethicists to see how ethical it is to rob the unborn future generations with no chance to defend themselves and no way to vote against the robbery.
Click to expand...

Don't disagree with you at all there bud.
 
Dr.Millisevert said:
ummm. Yes, BUT they the don't have debt and little or no malpractice. If your cash inflow is 100k/yr and your outflow is 40k/yr.. And my inflow is 80k/yr but everything I make goes into my pocket.. Then I make more than you. Taxes in Cali are already close to what doctors are paying in taxes in many areas of Europe.
Click to expand...

Hah, well first of all if you're paying taxes like in Cali or Europe, all of your 80k won't be going back into your pocket. And, paying back my loans is not going to cost me 40k a year. Nowhere close to that. Man, you need to look at the math on this thing. No doctor in America (unless they work part-time) makes 100k a year. And, if you go to a state school (like yours truly) your debt load won't be as high as you're making it out to be. I would rather make 200k and pay my loans back myself and pay lower taxes (200k - 20k per year for 10 years to pay loans back - minus 30% tax bracket with no state income tax [welcome to Texas]) than have the government set my salary artificially low at 125 k with no debt and pay 50%+ taxes (not at all inconceivable if our deficits keep running the way they are). Do the math on it pal. You're offering yourself up to get taken advantage of. Don't trust the government. Uncle Sam is not on your side.
 
RGMSU said:
Hah, well first of all if you're paying taxes like in Cali or Europe, all of your 80k won't be going back into your pocket. And, paying back my loans is not going to cost me 40k a year. Nowhere close to that. Man, you need to look at the math on this thing. No doctor in America (unless they work part-time) makes 100k a year. And, if you go to a state school (like yours truly) your debt load won't be as high as you're making it out to be. I would rather make 200k and pay my loans back myself and pay lower taxes (200k - 20k per year for 10 years to pay loans back - minus 30% tax bracket with no state income tax [welcome to Texas]) than have the government set my salary artificially low at 125 k with no debt and pay 50%+ taxes (not at all inconceivable if our deficits keep running the way they are). Do the math on it pal. You're offering yourself up to get taken advantage of. Don't trust the government. Uncle Sam is not on your side.
Click to expand...

... maybe I wasn't getting my point across.

Look.. I'm not arguing FOR free public health care for all Americans. I'm simply saying.. that IF things head that way and we are all forced to become government employees (not that we will because even in countries with public health systems there are always doctors who work in private practice and work in private hospitals and charge patients who want to pay for better service). .... I'm saying.. IF things go that way.. THEN the government needs to also subsidize doctor's education and training and reduce our malpractice (that's how it is in those countries that have public health systems).
They can't keep charging US students 200k+ (even at public universities) to get a medical degree and have skyrocketing malpractice rates and at the same time expect doctors to work in the US in a public system with lower pay. (and if the taxes have to be raised equal to or higher than those of other countries in order to do it)
IF they do that.. THEN the US doctors I'm sure would prefer to move to another country to work... which (IF they are going to have a lower pay and/or higher taxes anyways) at least they won't have student loans or high malpractice as well to contend with. (... is that more clear?)

(sorry for the misunderstanding)
 
Last edited:
Dr.Millisevert said:
I'm not arguing FOR free public health care for all Americans.
Click to expand...

... or illegals living in America (who I'm sure you're aware of living in Texas). ... Most illegals can and do walk into any ER and treat it like a Family Practitioners office and they usually get seen and treated (at least if its actually serious) for FREE. How many illegals are living and working in the US... 30-40 mil?? At least if we gave them all citizenship you could immediately have 20-30 mil more tax payers who can at least contribute to a system that they are already using. (not only that it will provide them with more work protections which they desperately need as well).

(not to get off the subject of subsidized education and lower malpractice.. I know this is an entirely new topic all together)
 
Dr.Millisevert said:
At least if we gave them all citizenship you could immediately have 20-30 mil more tax payers who can at least contribute to a system that they are already using.
Click to expand...

Um...yeah. Because, you know, not paying your taxes would be illegal, right? :rolleyes:
 
Maybe someone should contact the writers of Scrubs or ER and give them some ideas for their show. It would be interesting at least if they had a character who was either in their final year of medical school or residency and who wanted to be a family practitioner... But who was contemplating suicide or changing their identity and working in a cash only practice in the caribean (spa cosmetic medicine clinic) in order to get out of paying their undergrad and medical school loans off ($350k debt with high interest)... or something drastic like that because they see no way of paying it off as a resident making 30k/yr and later as a family doctor.

If anything it would spark some interesting discussions and help to inform the public about the politics of skyrocketing health care education costs in the light of future possible reductions in doctors salaries.

Thoughts?
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Dr.Millisevert said:
Maybe someone should contact the writers of Scrubs or ER and give them some ideas for their show. It would be interesting at least if they had a character who was either in their final year of medical school or residency and who wanted to be a family practitioner... But who was contemplating suicide or changing their identity and working in a cash only practice in the caribean (spa cosmetic medicine clinic) in order to get out of paying their undergrad and medical school loans off ($350k debt with high interest)... or something drastic like that because they see no way of paying it off as a resident making 30k/yr and later as a family doctor.

If anything it would spark some interesting discussions and help to inform the public about the politics of skyrocketing health care education costs in the light of future possible reductions in doctors salaries.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

So why not pay family physicians more so that they can pay off their loans? I'm all for that. Why do we need a government takeover of medicine for that to happen? Nobody in the current healthcare debate is offering to pay for every physician's education, nor do I expect them to, which is why we have to watch our for reimbursement issues.
 
RGMSU said:
Nobody in the current healthcare debate is offering to pay for every physician's education, nor do I expect them to
Click to expand...

Really?

If the US has a gov run health care system (public health care).. Then doctors would become gov employees (Eg. public servants). If doctors are public servants then why shouldn't the gov (tax payers) pay for the training of doctors (medical school)? ...and for that matter.. Why shouldn't they pay for doctors malpractice as well?
 
Dr.Millisevert said:
Really?

If the US has a gov run health care system (public health care).. Then doctors would become gov employees (Eg. public servants). If doctors are public servants then why shouldn't the gov (tax payers) pay for the training of doctors (medical school)? ...and for that matter.. Why shouldn't they pay for doctors malpractice as well?
Click to expand...

And, how many politicians have you heard suggest either paying for medical school debt or malpractice? None that I've heard of.
 
RGMSU said:
And, how many politicians have you heard suggest either paying for medical school debt or malpractice? None that I've heard of.
Click to expand...

Same.. None. Of course they wouldn't suggest it. Why would they?

It will have to be set in motion by medical students and residents who are fed up with the idea that a career as a doctor in the future American health care system will mean a drop in salary to the level of other countries who have public health system... But with none of the benefits of going to medical school in those same countries. (gov pays tuition and malpractice!).

There has to be a breaking point. If students learn that lifestyle and benefits for doctors are now better outside of the US... We might start seeing US med grads moving overseas to complete residency and to subsequently work. The US could be the next India and start supplying the rest of the world with doctors. Who knows...
 
Last edited:
RGMSU said:
So why not pay family physicians more so that they can pay off their loans? I'm all for that. Why do we need a government takeover of medicine for that to happen?
Click to expand...

Again.. I'm not arguing for a government take over of medicine.

I'm all for paying family physicians more...

I'm just saying that IF there is a government take over of medicine... there needs to be more benefits to doctors to balance things out a bit. Other countries who have government run health care systems do other things for doctors that the USA doesn't (paid tuition and malpractice).
 
There is a limit to how much nationalization Americans will allow for their healthcare system. As soon as people start seeing the ill effects of a public option, assuming one is passed, which I seriously doubt at this point, Americans will quickly sicken over it, figuratively speaking. That's why I don't predict a very bright political future for people who spend a trillion dollars to ask people to pay more for healthcare, wait longer to see a physician, and receive rationed benefits. Sounds like a recipe for one term only to me.
 
RGMSU said:
There is a limit to how much nationalization Americans will allow for their healthcare system. As soon as people start seeing the ill effects of a public option, assuming one is passed, which I seriously doubt at this point, Americans will quickly sicken over it, figuratively speaking. That's why I don't predict a very bright political future for people who spend a trillion dollars to ask people to pay more for healthcare, wait longer to see a physician, and receive rationed benefits. Sounds like a recipe for one term only to me.
Click to expand...

Yeah. Obama's typical formula is to take from a small minority of voters to give to/buy votes from a larger number of voters. With government insurance, he sticks to that unAmerican but somewhat popular formula as far as taxes are concerned, but when you consider quality of care and insurance premiums, it is flipped- a large majority get worse healthcare to give better care to a few.
 
Fact is though American Doctor's net practice income - School Loans - Malpractice - Taxes > European Doctor's take home pay.

Go tell the people on the Ortho board here if they'll take the same $170,000 pay as Psychiatrists. See if they like that.
 
Dr.Millisevert said:
... or illegals living in America (who I'm sure you're aware of living in Texas). ... Most illegals can and do walk into any ER and treat it like a Family Practitioners office and they usually get seen and treated (at least if its actually serious) for FREE. How many illegals are living and working in the US... 30-40 mil?? At least if we gave them all citizenship you could immediately have 20-30 mil more tax payers who can at least contribute to a system that they are already using. (not only that it will provide them with more work protections which they desperately need as well).

(not to get off the subject of subsidized education and lower malpractice.. I know this is an entirely new topic all together)
Click to expand...

This is a huge fallacy, though unrelated to the current topic.

You're assuming all else stays equal, which it doesn't.

The crooked employers which hire illegals (which in places like Texas and California might actually represent most Americans) do so for the cheap labor. If you now say these folks are all legalized and must be paid on a certain minimum wage scale with payroll taxes deducted, and full benefits, I doubt their employers (which include everyone from McDonald's to small time buidlers to families hiring day laborers) will go for that, given the sudden drastic change of the entire cost equation. Either the now legalized illegals will continue to work overwhelmingly with under the table, black money pay, or simply more illegals will rush across the Arizona border to take their jobs.
 
Paddington said:
Fact is though American Doctor's net practice income - School Loans - Malpractice - Taxes > European Doctor's take home pay.

Go tell the people on the Ortho board here if they'll take the same $170,000 pay as Psychiatrists. See if they like that.
Click to expand...

1. Depends on what specialty you're talking about.

2. You should probably also subtract other things from the US docs salary That you wouldn't have to pay for in other countries.. Like tuition for your childrens schooling your own health insurance payments, etc before you make a final comparison.
 
http://chattahbox.com/entertainment...-voting-yes-senate-passes-health-care-motion/

It passed the senate....

While we're on the issue, does anyone know how will it affect the salaries of pharmacists? I'm dying to know since no one in the pharmacy boards are either present or have a majority clue on what would happen.

I'm beginning to think that this will have an overall negative impact on the salaries on all health care professions.
 
It did not pass the senate. The senate voted to start discussion and overcome a republican filibuster.
 
So, the discussion of what we should do or not do aside... assuming this bill eventually passes, and that looks increasingly likely... what effect WILL it have on physician salaries 4-5 years down the line?

Last I heard, it will boost Medicare (or whatever Medicare becomes) reimbursements to PCPs by 10%, while also using more subtle tricks to lower specialist pay by some undetermined amount. Is that estimate true?
 
pawnedglory said:
So, the discussion of what we should do or not do aside... assuming this bill eventually passes, and that looks increasingly likely... what effect WILL it have on physician salaries 4-5 years down the line?

Last I heard, it will boost Medicare (or whatever Medicare becomes) reimbursements to PCPs by 10%, while also using more subtle tricks to lower specialist pay by some undetermined amount. Is that estimate true?
Click to expand...

Medicare already underreimburses specialists. A decent income depends on private insurance. They would like to destroy medicine by taking over the insurance industry completely, nevermind all the lies to the contrary.

"Let there be no change [in Constitutional powers] by usurpation; for though this, in one instance, may be the instrument of good, it is the customary weapon by which free governments are destroyed."
George Washington
 
pawnedglory said:
So, the discussion of what we should do or not do aside... assuming this bill eventually passes, and that looks increasingly likely... what effect WILL it have on physician salaries 4-5 years down the line?

Last I heard, it will boost Medicare (or whatever Medicare becomes) reimbursements to PCPs by 10%, while also using more subtle tricks to lower specialist pay by some undetermined amount. Is that estimate true?
Click to expand...

This is the goal as far as I can see to try to level out primary care vs. specialist proportions in the workforce to make it more equivalent to other Western countries.
 
bkz said:
Yes Obama has spoken of a great land of rainbows and lollipops, but the devil is in the details and I have a hard time imagining the money to pay for all this would come from anything other than taxpayer's wallets. The problem with that is government programs are extraordinarily inefficient and usually create more problems than they solve while making the whole mess even more complicated. I think the fundamental difference between supporters and dissenters of Obama's plan lies in redistributive economics...I don't support redistribution of wealth while Obama seems to and you may as well.

In an abstract level I think all the ideas he's proposing are amazing...and too good to be true..where is the money gonna come from? And is right to obtain the money this way? Sure everyone likes the idea of free health care...as long as someone else pays for it.
Click to expand...



I totally agree with what you said here...Although I like Obama, I dont think the people really look at the government as harmful, as it is. More government means more harm that good. in my opinion anyway
 
i read somewhere that physician salary itself is actually a miniscule proportion of healthcare spending.... but the public probably doesn't have that fact in mind :rolleyes:

unfortunately - while lowering doctor salary is all part and parcel of Obamacare - lowering med school cost is not.

my joy of entering medical school has *ever so slightly* diminished and that space has been replaced by an *ever so slight* panic. i'll watch that panic continue to expand over the next four years...
 
miglo said:
Thats why I don't think I know *any* docs that are still a part of the AMA.
Click to expand...
The AMA can only keep credibility by claiming it's number of "members", whom are largely medical students who just don't know any better.
 
tncekm said:
The AMA can only keep credibility by claiming it's number of "members", whom are largely medical students who just don't know any better.
Click to expand...

That's why those of us who do not agree with the current legislation should cancel our membership in this organization. I don't see how they can claim to represent the majority of physicians at this point.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Next unread thread

Similar threads

T
Where to find physician referral sources
Replies
0
Views
556
texanpsychdoc
T
G
Ethnic Differences in Physician Competence
Replies
0
Views
762
gatotten
G
WildWing
FYI - RWJF Health Policy Research Scholars program
Replies
0
Views
734
WildWing
WildWing
frosted2
Health literacy
Replies
0
Views
856
frosted2
frosted2
K
Physician shortage
Replies
2
Views
2K
kstarman
K
Top