nyu students petitioned against organic chemistry professor and got him fired

[emergentmd]

i had the opposite take. i was a math major and i found that i had to re-learn how to study for the premed classes, meaning just memorize massive amounts of information and regurgitate. nothing at all like the theoretical math IMO. Once i stopped trying to look for deeper meaning in the material and just memorize it, i had much greater success in college and beyond.

studying for a math test would take me an hour or two..
studying for med school and pre med would take me days and weeks of work. there was just no way to reason or problem-solve your way to correct answers in biochemistry or anatomy - you just had to know it in great detail..

I was a EE major and breezed by engineering classes. I just knew how to study for these courses and most were logical once you figured out how to study thus Org Chem was a breeze and I didn't even show up for class in OrgChem II.

Med school sucked hard the 1st semester, did bad b/c I assumed I would just do the same but again there is no logic to Pathophys or Anatomy. Once I figured that I just needed to buck up and just memorize everything, back to good grades.

I surely did not complain to admin that the teachers were bad

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[nimbus]

I was a EE major and breezed by engineering classes. I just knew how to study for these courses and most were logical once you figured out how to study thus Org Chem was a breeze and I didn't even show up for class in OrgChem II.

Med school sucked hard the 1st semester, did bad b/c I assumed I would just do the same but again there is no logic to Pathophys or Anatomy. Once I figured that I just needed to buck up and just memorize everything, back to good grades.

I surely did not complain to admin that the teachers were bad

Part of it was because you were an engineering major. My closest friend in med school had the same problem. Many of the courses (biochem, physiology, genetics, immunology, etc) during first 2 years are review for a more typical premed.

 

[pgg]

100% true. If you can hack the basic science years you will have MD after your name in 4 years. It’s sad to say but the clinical years is basically “show up and don’t kill anyone”

Add "keep the personality disorder mostly in check" to that. Of the handful of classmates I had who didn't make it through, there was some serious can't-interact-with-the-humans trouble. I'm pretty sure they weren't aliens. Pretty sure.

It's funny that medicine, which is all about taking care of people, attracts a lot of science wonks who can't or don't want to interact with people.

I'm not even casting stones, there's a reason I'm an anesthesiologist. But I don't have trouble keeping my antisocial pathology in check, and faking it for the few minutes between meeting a patient and rendering them unconscious.

Today, I even managed to keep an engaged look on my face when a patient told me she was allergic to "cat fur extract" ... didn't even ask WTF anyone extracted from cat fur. I'm pretty sure my definitely-human former classmates who didn't graduate would've blurted out something like "that's dumb" and then asked if she was single.

 

[emergentmd]

Part of it was because you were an engineering major. My closest friend in med school had the same problem. Many of the courses (biochem, physiology, genetics, immunology, etc) during first 2 years are review for a more typical premed.

I am sure this was the case and my knowledge was poor. But it was more that I assumed I could make sense of the subject rather than memorizing it. Never stayed after anatomy to "review" when everyone else did.

1st yr classes that had some semblance of math/chemistry based I breezed by.

Took me a yr to switch my brain from making logical sense of a subject to just memorize aimlessly. 30 yrs after college, I still have a strong grasp of math/chemistry but ask me anything about detailed anatomy would be like latin to me.

 

[nimbus]

Add "keep the personality disorder mostly in check" to that. Of the handful of classmates I had who didn't make it through, there was some serious can't-interact-with-the-humans trouble. I'm pretty sure they weren't aliens. Pretty sure.

It's funny that medicine, which is all about taking care of people, attracts a lot of science wonks who can't or don't want to interact with people.

I'm not even casting stones, there's a reason I'm an anesthesiologist. But I don't have trouble keeping my antisocial pathology in check, and faking it for the few minutes between meeting a patient and rendering them unconscious.

Today, I even managed to keep an engaged look on my face when a patient told me she was allergic to "cat fur extract" ... didn't even ask WTF anyone extracted from cat fur. I'm pretty sure my definitely-human former classmates who didn't graduate would've blurted out something like "that's dumb" and then asked if she was single.

eg…that kid who was expelled from UVA.

 

[Twiggidy]

My brother has 2 brilliant sons. One took calculus in 8th grade and the other in 9th grade. He wants them to attend Ivy’s but he’s also a conservative right winger. I ask him why he’s throwing his kids to the wolves to be indoctrinated. I’m sure they could gain admission to some bible college in Missouri or South Carolina where they would receive a fine education without the liberal indoctrination. We have plenty of choices.

Isn't that the irony though given that many of our conservative politicians are Ivy league educated? I would argue you want to be in an environment where your thoughts are challenge instead of being a place where everyone agrees with you


Okay, I realize what I just said is fantasyland. Nuance died years if not decades ago.

 

[Twiggidy]

Add "keep the personality disorder mostly in check" to that. Of the handful of classmates I had who didn't make it through, there was some serious can't-interact-with-the-humans trouble. I'm pretty sure they weren't aliens. Pretty sure.

It's funny that medicine, which is all about taking care of people, attracts a lot of science wonks who can't or don't want to interact with people.

I'm not even casting stones, there's a reason I'm an anesthesiologist. But I don't have trouble keeping my antisocial pathology in check, and faking it for the few minutes between meeting a patient and rendering them unconscious.

Today, I even managed to keep an engaged look on my face when a patient told me she was allergic to "cat fur extract" ... didn't even ask WTF anyone extracted from cat fur. I'm pretty sure my definitely-human former classmates who didn't graduate would've blurted out something like "that's dumb" and then asked if she was single.

My goodness everything you said is so true. Especially the part in bold.

 

[Twiggidy]

I am sure this was the case and my knowledge was poor. But it was more that I assumed I could make sense of the subject rather than memorizing it. Never stayed after anatomy to "review" when everyone else did.

1st yr classes that had some semblance of math/chemistry based I breezed by.

Took me a yr to switch my brain from making logical sense of a subject to just memorize aimlessly. 30 yrs after college, I still have a strong grasp of math/chemistry but ask me anything about detailed anatomy would be like latin to me.

I was explaining to people in the OR the toxic dose of bupivacaine mathematically and the entire room looked at me as if I started breakdancing in the OR. Math to me just makes sense and the minute I started converting percents in ratios and mg/ml and multiplying by weight I suddenly just head "bovie to 45". Admittedly, I was also slightly sarcastic in saying "Doctor you should know the dose, toxic dose, and side effects of any med you administer". Slightly, hell fully sarcastic. But we're all cool in that room.

 

[deleted1116990]

some bible college in Missouri or South Carolina where they would receive a fine education without the liberal indoctrination. We have plenty of choices.

Leftist indoctrination. Not liberal. Huge difference. Classical liberals do not espouse the noxious anti-Western tear-it-down narrative that permeates campuses.

The bible colleges are certainly also guilty of indoctrination. I know them well.

He wants them to attend Ivies for the name recognition and alumni network. That is what you pay for there. Paying $300k for your kid to go to undergraduate at Penn and study chemistry vs. $50k at your state school because you think they would come out with superior chemistry knowledge would be silly. Graduate school is different because of specific mentors, meaning your best opportunity may be at University of Mississippi where Professor XYZ is not Harvard for the particular niche you want to publish on in physical chemistry.

 

[nimbus]

Isn't that the irony though given that many of our conservative politicians are Ivy league educated? I would argue you want to be in an environment where your thoughts are challenge instead of being a place where everyone agrees with you


Okay, I realize what I just said is fantasyland. Nuance died years if not decades ago.

Yup…..Elise Stefanik, Ted Cruz, Josh Hawley, Ron Desantis, and Lauren Boebert…oops, not her. Anyway there is a diversity of thought coming out of elite universities.

 

[deleted1116990]

It's funny that medicine, which is all about taking care of people, attracts a lot of science wonks who can't or don't want to interact with people.

The one person I know who could not get through med school fit this bill. He was an EMT, struggled through preclinical because he wanted to keep working as an EMT at night, picked fights with everyone, made inappropriate jokes, and then got on the wards and acted like he knew more than the attendings. He was given multiple chances, LOAs, last I heard was attempting to repeat third year after I graduated before he was finally dismissed.

 

[nimbus]

Leftist indoctrination. Not liberal. Huge difference. Classical liberals do not espouse the noxious anti-Western tear-it-down narrative that permeates campuses.

The bible colleges are certainly also guilty of indoctrination. I know them well.

He wants them to attend Ivies for the name recognition and alumni network. That is what you pay for there. Paying $300k for your kid to go to undergraduate at Penn and study chemistry vs. $50k at your state school because you think they would come out with superior chemistry knowledge would be silly. Graduate school is different because of specific mentors, meaning your best opportunity may be at University of Mississippi where Professor XYZ is not Harvard for the particular niche you want to publish on in physical chemistry.

Okay, leftist if you say so. I haven’t lived in a campus in a long time. It can be avoided if it’s important to somebody.

 

[Iso4ane]

I'm not that old (or at least I don't think I am), but people sure want to fell special. I still remember first day of Honors Gen Chem at my State University (and not a particularly good one at that). Professor very clearly on the first day stated along the lines. (You are all in the Honors college. Many of you probably have med school aspirations and were 4.0 students in high school. For many of you this will be the first non-A you will receive, and may make you change your mind about med school.) And he didn't mention this till later but historically the attrition rate between Honors Chem 1 and Honors Chem 2 was ~80-90%; class of ~150-->~20. I don't consider myself that smart, but I did well enough in the class.

Sorry for being long winded, but point of the story is I think a lot of this kids are both made to feel special and were a large fish in a little pond in high school. Fortunately for some kids in this class they got a slap of reality 1st semester of college. Unfortunately, for many others, that slap doesn't come until OChem.

 

[pgg]

I'm not that old (or at least I don't think I am), but people sure want to fell special. I still remember first day of Honors Gen Chem at my State University (and not a particularly good one at that). Professor very clearly on the first day stated along the lines. (You are all in the Honors college. Many of you probably have med school aspirations and were 4.0 students in high school. For many of you this will be the first non-A you will receive, and may make you change your mind about med school.) And he didn't mention this till later but historically the attrition rate between Honors Chem 1 and Honors Chem 2 was ~80-90%; class of ~150-->~20. I don't consider myself that smart, but I did well enough in the class.

Sorry for being long winded, but point of the story is I think a lot of this kids are both made to feel special and were a large fish in a little pond in high school. Fortunately for some kids in this class they got a slap of reality 1st semester of college. Unfortunately, for many others, that slap doesn't come until OChem.

This is EXACTLY what I experienced, every bit of it. Fall quarter, freshman year, day one of honors chem, literally my first day of college, the professor said exactly that. Wasn't really unpleasant about trying to dissuade any premeds, but said it was a course for people who were going further in chemistry and that it was going to be rigorous, and hard.

Will never forget, the first midterm exam, some guy sitting a few rows ahead of me actually started hyperventilating and clenching his fists.

The class got a lot smaller the next quarter.

I probably should've taken the professor's advice. Got an A the fall quarter, a B in winter, and clawed out a C in the spring. But hey I was an honor student in honors chem. Pretty sure no med school adcom GAF that it was an honors course, but the C didn't help me ...

 

[anbuitachi]

i had the opposite take. i was a math major and i found that i had to re-learn how to study for the premed classes, meaning just memorize massive amounts of information and regurgitate. nothing at all like the theoretical math IMO. Once i stopped trying to look for deeper meaning in the material and just memorize it, i had much greater success in college and beyond.

studying for a math test would take me an hour or two..
studying for med school and pre med would take me days and weeks of work. there was just no way to reason or problem-solve your way to correct answers in biochemistry or anatomy - you just had to know it in great detail..

I mean what differentiates the ones who do well and not are knowing how to apply to knowledge learned, not just memorize. There are definitely a lot of questions you can get by just memorizing, esp bio, but just doing that probably at most get you a mean grade. To do well you need to know how to apply the knowledge to weird questions you've probably never seen before. At least that's my experience. Like problem solving


But I get everyone's exp is different and even schools are different. I remember a hs friend in another school showed me his organic chem exam and it was extremely easy. But I've seen others with even harder exams.

 

[epidural man]

He wants them to attend Ivies for the name recognition and alumni network. That is what you pay for there. Paying $300k for your kid to go to undergraduate at Penn and study chemistry vs. $50k at your state school because you think they would come out with superior chemistry knowledge would be silly. Graduate school is different because of specific mentors, meaning your best opportunity may be at University of Mississippi where Professor XYZ is not Harvard for the particular niche you want to publish on in physical chemistry.

Mention to him that his kids should strive to attend a college that has adopted The Chicago Principles.

Chicago principles - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[epidural man]

and not for the love of the sublime beauty of the thin lens equation.

This is awesome...made me laugh. "sublime Beauty of the thin lens equation...." Hahahaha. very funny.

I'm pretty sure my definitely-human former classmates who didn't graduate would've blurted out something like "that's dumb" and then asked if she was single.

HAHAHA. Again....very funny.

 

[thinkorswim]

All you kids reminiscing about how tough organic chemistry was have probably never had to take physical chemistry. It’s a potpourri of chemistry, physics and calculus all meant to make you look like a dunce. I had blacked that class out of my memory until this thread and now I need to see my therapist.

 

[wholeheartedly]

 

[6svette]

Funny to reminisce about the organic chemistry days and the countless hours spent in the library. I would’ve given anything to be in the position I’m in right now. Try to keep that in mind as the ob pager goes off endlessly at 3am.

 

[Iso4ane]

All you kids reminiscing about how tough organic chemistry was have probably never had to take physical chemistry. It’s a potpourri of chemistry, physics and calculus all meant to make you look like a dunce. I had blacked that class out of my memory until this thread and now I need to see my therapist.

I took PChem. It was difficult in a different sort of way. But I’ve blacked that class out too. I remember more from OChem.

Funny to reminisce about the organic chemistry days and the countless hours spent in the library. I would’ve given anything to be in the position I’m in right now. Try to keep that in mind as the ob pager goes off endlessly at 3am.

Let’s not forget, we may have a little survivorship bias. We only thought it was ‘okay’ since we passed.

 

[DG51]

“Unless you appreciate these transformations at the molecular level,” he said, “I don’t think you can be a good physician, and I don’t want you treating patients.”

This statement says it all. This professor's ego got in the way of his teaching. What authority does he have to say who will and will not be a good physician? Good riddance.

 

[Iso4ane]

I was explaining to people in the OR the toxic dose of bupivacaine mathematically and the entire room looked at me as if I started breakdancing in the OR. Math to me just makes sense and the minute I started converting percents in ratios and mg/ml and multiplying by weight I suddenly just head "bovie to 45". Admittedly, I was also slightly sarcastic in saying "Doctor you should know the dose, toxic dose, and side effects of any med you administer". Slightly, hell fully sarcastic. But we're all cool in that room.

I heard a story once a peds surgeon asked for a syringe of lidocaine for injection from the anesthesiologist. After being handed the syringe, the surgeon berated the anesthesiologist for handing the surgeon too much lidocaine, and that one should never hand a surgeon too much lidocaine. The anesthesiologist then calmly did the calculation out loud in front of him, asked him to check how much was in the syringe. That shut him up, but surgeon didn’t even apologize.

 

[ChordaEpiphany]

Organic Chemistry is not easy and it's not supposed to be easy. At many a school it is the "weed out class". I understand the pandemic has made things difficult for students but quite honestly the students just have to put in the effort and also not be a quitter. I know it's now harder to get into medical school than it ever probably has been but it's also a bad look for students to get a professor fired because his test was too hard. If that's not some millennial privilege screaming at us I don't know what is.

Actually, just Gen Z I believe. This is the entitled group that doesn't do " Hard"

I really never thought I'd come to this side of it, but as an MSTP student I've now had a ton of exposure to the gen Z college/grad school crowd. The internet ruined these kids. I admire their commitment to equity and fair practices, but it's not a selfless mission on their part, and they constantly apply concepts reserved for legitimately downtrodden minorities to themselves, which is where you get this "blame everyone else" mentality. Social media is essentially a never-ending scroll of rage-bait at this point. Rage = engagement. They are basically all emulating social media and the digital worlds they live in by shifting blame towards any large system and then expecting applause/attention for doing so.

It's human nature to victimize your own situation and abuse attribution bias. Wealthy white women, who are admitted into the PhD program at much higher rates, enjoy several-fold higher fellowship success rates in this field, are actively recruited by professors (for diversity bonus points on grant applications), and will be actively recruited for faculty positions will tell you with a straight face that they experience "oppression" within academia. If you told me you were discriminated against for promotions at Goldman Sachs, I'd believe you. If you told me black students from poor families didn't have enough support to overcome a transition into academia, I'd believe you. Tell me that [super liberal/leftist university in a super liberal city] is punching down on white women who grew up in the suburbs and I'm not sure I can take you seriously. One of my new labmates is a Muslim girl who passes for white and has a CEO father who makes mid-seven figures. She doesn't miss a single opportunity to claim discrimination/racism/sexism whenever she doesn't get what she wants. The people actually experiencing oppression in academia aren't even in the room.

The gen Z undergrads are even worse, because their rage is directed towards anything that is inconvenient for them. They're teenagers or barely past it.

Like, these kids will rage against the machine and claim professors and universities are evil because someone is putting a small obstacle between them and their plans to "support equity and diversity" through... obviously selfish career advancement 🙄. Really? That's where you're directing your rage? An 82 year old who plays a small role in the most meritocratic system that exists in our highly inequitable world? The non-profit education system that single-handedly drives innovation for fractions of a penny on the dollar? Very cool.

There is probably more to the story than is mentioned in the article. Whining about the whippersnapper generation gets clicks, but in reality this is an 82 year old professor who is probably a bit past his prime. I can remember a couple tenured professors who should have been put out to pasture.

Oh, while I'm sure the students don't really have a leg to stand on, I'd bet my left that this guy was unapologetic and antagonistic. Doctors can avoid being sued by getting patients to like them. Professors can avoid getting fired by putting minimal effort into looking like you care.

 

[abolt18]

“Unless you appreciate these transformations at the molecular level,” he said, “I don’t think you can be a good physician, and I don’t want you treating patients.”

This statement says it all. This professor's ego got in the way of his teaching. What authority does he have to say who will and will not be a good physician? Good riddance.

In med school we had an internal medicine doc who would come lecture. He hated that lectures were recorded and people (myself) never went to class. He would say "I'm going to have a future riddled with chronic disease, and I want to be cared for by a doctor who WENT TO CLASS!" (Accurate though, BMI was probably 50+)

He would then intentionally use his laser pointer to circle answers to questions on the test for people in the lecture hall, as that wouldn't be seen on the recording. Funny that he would dumb it down for those who were going to class. The irony was not lost on me.

 

[2Fast2Des]

In med school we had an internal medicine doc who would come lecture. He hated that lectures were recorded and people (myself) never went to class. He would say "I'm going to have a future riddled with chronic disease, and I want to be cared for by a doctor who WENT TO CLASS!" (Accurate though, BMI was probably 50+)

He would then intentionally use his laser pointer to circle answers to questions on the test for people in the lecture hall, as that wouldn't be seen on the recording. Funny that he would dumb it down for those who were going to class. The irony was not lost on me.

Here's the thing, everyone has a different learning style. I went to class during the 1st year of med school and I found myself zoning out or falling asleep and then not learn or pay attention properly. I decided that for 2nd year I would just watch lectures, read the scribe notes, and supplement myself with first aid. That was MUCH more efficient use of my time instead. I could watch lectures faster, repeat sections, and learn better. Going to a classroom is not a guarantee that learning takes place. That being said med school is just about memorizing the ish out of everything, so for a subject that may require questions or clarification for the professor that model may not work as well if course.

 

[D P356]

Will we have doctors who don't know the plot of "Lord of the Flies" and don't what "the key of C minor" means?

Twiggles, You mean C flat?

And Lord of the Flies is where they toss the ring into the volcano, right?…..

 

[Twiggidy]

Twiggles, You mean C flat?

And Lord of the Flies is where they toss the ring into the volcano, right?…..

It’s the autobiography of Michael Flatley

 

[Twiggidy]

All you kids reminiscing about how tough organic chemistry was have probably never had to take physical chemistry. It’s a potpourri of chemistry, physics and calculus all meant to make you look like a dunce. I had blacked that class out of my memory until this thread and now I need to see my therapist.

oh i loved P. Chem, but admittedly the teacher and TAs were great.

 

[Twiggidy]

Here's the thing, everyone has a different learning style. I went to class during the 1st year of med school and I found myself zoning out or falling asleep and then not learn or pay attention properly. I decided that for 2nd year I would just watch lectures, read the scribe notes, and supplement myself with first aid. That was MUCH more efficient use of my time instead. I could watch lectures faster, repeat sections, and learn better. Going to a classroom is not a guarantee that learning takes place. That being said med school is just about memorizing the ish out of everything, so for a subject that may require questions or clarification for the professor that model may not work as well if course.

This is true. As I think back to science classes in college I'm sure we all did very well in the lab portion of the classes, which thankfully also help our grades/GPA. This shows that for most of us, we get it if you use an "applied" approach to the concept. If you just explain fermentation to someone on a chalkboard, I can certainly see how someone will fall asleep, but bust out a "Brooklyn Beer Making Kit" and I guarantee you the entire class, especially a college class (lol) will perk up.

So back to the article, maybe there's a little "both sides at fault here". I wonder how much of his teaching method is outdated and how much effort the class was really giving?

 

[D P356]

It’s the autobiography of Michael Flatley

Very clever and unexpected. You have won the thread today. You should be proud for days after making that dad joke. I would be if I made it.

 

[Test Boy]

As usual, probably not all one sided. That professor probably is an old jerk. But those students also too soft. I wonder how many people got A’s? If it’s about 10% of the class, then it can’t be that bad. The 25% that failed would have normally gotten C’s if it was a different professor so it’s a little harsh but not egregious.

 

[D P356]

I was thankful to have access to tutors that I’d used sporadically throughout undergraduate. Reading the textbook, paying attention in lecture and doing practice problems in all of the pre-requisites helped me. Then redo the problems that were missed.

I had a physics professor that told us to work out all the problems with our pencil. Draw the vectors and diagrams as explained in questions.

I was challenged by and really enjoyed all the pre-requisites.

 

[DrMDAware]

You don't need to go to college to learn about arts and culture. You can read Dostoevsky on your own for free at the library if you want (presumably you were taught how to read before college). This is especially true in the age of the internet. I would challenge you to find even a single subject that one still must to go to university to learn.

What does college really provide these days? Indoctrination into a certain way of thinking and viewing the world. Namely a very anti-Western civilization narrative. So much for learning how to think. Learn what to think instead.

Is Dostoevsky on Tik Tok?

 

[BLADEMDA]

As usual, probably not all one sided. That professor probably is an old jerk. But those students also too soft. I wonder how many people got A’s? If it’s about 10% of the class, then it can’t be that bad. The 25% that failed would have normally gotten C’s if it was a different professor so it’s a little harsh but not egregious.

New generation of Woke students. Different culture and expectation today than in the past. Students are paying to do "well" not to get bad grades. Their parents expect, no demand, the inflated grades of the other courses at top schools. Sadly, this will permeate the Universities if it hasn't already with students attending the schools which demonstrate to give them the grades they want not the grades they deserve.

 

[BLADEMDA]

 

[BLADEMDA]

"There’s the rub. The students feel that they are entitled to grades that get them into medical school and a lucrative career. Tell me, do you want doctors to be brought up in a system like this? Do you want doctors who aren’t chosen for their performance either before or in medical school. Or would you be happy with a random sample of applicants?"

After students protest, NYU chemistry professor fired for grading too hard

A gazillion readers sent me a link to this NYT article, which I found horrifying. Others may not, and may characterize me as a grumpy old ex-professor who can't change with the times. So be it; as Hit

whyevolutionistrue.com

Sometimes it’s a good thing for a student to not get into medical school, for the correlation between performance in grad school and med school with being a good doctor is surely positive. That’s why medical schools—well, at least until recently—had high standards for who was admitted, and weeded out students based on pre-med-school performance. After all, it’s patients’ lives at stake, and in such a field merit must surely be given the highest consideration.

 

[aafisahar]

New generation of Woke students. Different culture and expectation today than in the past. Students are paying to do "well" not to get bad grades. Their parents expect, no demand, the inflated grades of the other courses at top schools. Sadly, this will permeate the Universities if it hasn't already with students attending the schools which demonstrate to give them the grades they want not the grades they deserve.

says the boomer who couldn't get into medical school today if he tried

 

[Twiggidy]

New generation of Woke students. Different culture and expectation today than in the past. Students are paying to do "well" not to get bad grades. Their parents expect, no demand, the inflated grades of the other courses at top schools. Sadly, this will permeate the Universities if it hasn't already with students attending the schools which demonstrate to give them the grades they want not the grades they deserve.

Only thing I disagree with is used of “wokeness”.
I has nothing to do with being “woke” as it is being “entitled”.

I would hope the university did a good investigation but at the very least, take a sample of the professor’s test up the A Train to a chemistry professor at Columbia and get a 2nd opinion

 

[vector2]

Only thing I disagree with is used of “wokeness”.
I has nothing to do with being “woke” as it is being “entitled”.

I would hope the university did a good investigation but at the very least, take a sample of the professor’s test up the A Train to a chemistry professor at Columbia and get a 2nd opinion

Indeed, as usual he's throwing around buzzwords that fit his agenda regardless of the facts.

As if all those parents with kids in conservative suburban prep schools aren't similarly expecting grade inflation....

 

[emergentmd]

Kids in general are weak minded. No more no less. This starts from the parents who thinks their kids are somehow special and deserves to feel special regardless of how they perform.

HS students getting passes even giving little effort, turning any work in. I have a friend who teaches HS history. Kids who never showed up to class and essentially has a zero, gets to show up the last day to complete all the work to get a passing grade in a day or two when other kids worked hard the whole semester.

These weak minded kids will eventually hit a wall when someone is gong to laugh at them when they perform poorly just to look around wondering where mommy is to yell at their boss.

Your job as parents are to make sure your kids know that they need to compete and nothing is given to them.

 

[DrMDAware]

Kids in general are weak minded. No more no less. This starts from the parents who thinks their kids are somehow special and deserves to feel special regardless of how they perform.

HS students getting passes even giving little effort, turning any work in. I have a friend who teaches HS history. Kids who never showed up to class and essentially has a zero, gets to show up the last day to complete all the work to get a passing grade in a day or two when other kids worked hard the whole semester.

These weak minded kids will eventually hit a wall when someone is gong to laugh at them when they perform poorly just to look around wondering where mommy is to yell at their boss.

Your job as parents are to make sure your kids know that they need to compete and nothing is given to them.

I see this in medicine when some residents are coddled and then wonder why they don’t get connected to sweet gigs.

They’re never told they’re wrong. Never told they have to work hard. Never have been yelled at. Never been told to expect more. Never had high expectations. Never read between the lines and picked on what is implicit.

But if you ask them they’d tell you how hard it was.

I don’t get it.

 

[Twiggidy]

I see this in medicine when some residents are coddled and then wonder why they don’t get connected to sweet gigs.

They’re never told they’re wrong. Never told they have to work hard. Never have been yelled at. Never been told to expect more. Never had high expectations. Never read between the lines and picked on what is implicit.

But if you ask them they’d tell you how hard it was.

I don’t get it.

coddled residents for some reason makes me think of one of my coworkers interns who ditched his last call which doubled all our work that last night. No consequences for actions and probably someone’s anesthesiologist today. I’m obviously still bitter

 

[rph3664]

At our school some students would take ochem at an easier nearby college over the summer.

And in reverse, when I was in pre-pharmacy at a community college, I had several classmates who refused to take chemistry at the local university because it was common knowledge that the prof was awful.

I had one professor in pharmacy school who, a couple years after I had him, gave 66 D's out of about 100 students. That was on HIM, trust me, and he did get in trouble for it.

The one thing I remember about O-chem, beyond the nightmares I had about pentagons and hexagons, was that I understood what it was like to, as someone else who had won a scholarship to an Ivy League school described it, tread water in a sea of valedictorians. (That, and accompanying a friend to her procedure at the local dental college, and while I waited for her, I decided to get my book out and study, and a dentist walked by and groaned, "......organic.....". Yup. I agree.)

 

[epidural man]

says the boomer who couldn't get into medical school today if he tried

You’re a meany.

 

[BLADEMDA]

You’re a meany.

However, there have been at times rapid and significant shifts in the relative ease or difficulty of being admitted to medical school. Here are some representative figures through the years:

1960: 60.4%

1963: 51.3%

1967: 50%

1970: 46%

1972 - 78: 35% - 39%

1980 - 82: 47%

1996: 55%

2002: 76%

2008: 50%

2018: 49%

 

[Dr. Rude]

says the boomer who couldn't get into medical school today if he tried

If Blade couldn’t get into medical school today, it would be for ideological reasons. Inability to hide his political views.

Sorry we boomers took all the low hanging fruit. Go scavenge.

 

[pgg]

However, there have been at times rapid and significant shifts in the relative ease or difficulty of being admitted to medical school. Here are some representative figures through the years:

1960: 60.4%

1963: 51.3%

1967: 50%

1970: 46%

1972 - 78: 35% - 39%

1980 - 82: 47%

1996: 55%

2002: 76%

2008: 50%

2018: 49%

What do those figures represent? Where did they come from?

Surely no one is suggesting that in 2018 49% of pre-meds got into medical school in the US? Most people who start as "pre-med" don't even apply. Admission rates don't really mean anything without some acknowledgement of self-selection factors.

 

[Radetzky]

A lot of confirmation bias in this thread. A lot of you have your preexisting opinion of todays students and see this article as evidence to confirm your beliefs despite having essentially zero knowledge of the facts of the event beyond what you read in the article.

Students who fail should not remain in their class. And teachers who teach poorly should not remain in their jobs. I don’t understand how you can all be so confident in your assessment of the balance of these factors unless you have some inside information?

 

[anbuitachi]

as much as we dont like the behavior. this may be what is needed to change the culture in medicine. imagine in 20 years, all of medicine filled with people like these NYU kids. maybe then they will achieve 40 yr work weeks, no calls, all weekends off. =\