NS Chances?

[BigRedStress]

Hello. I have been interested in NS since I began med school, as a third year it is still number one on my list of what i want to be when i

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[esth0001]

Hello. I have been interested in NS since I began med school, as a third year it is still number one on my list of what i want to be when i grow up. Heres the problem... step I: 211/86 !! I am average/above average in my med school (a NYC school) based on my first two years. I have honored my first third year rotation and will make it my mission to honor as many as possible this year. The plus is that I have years of research experience with three publication (1 first author, 1 secon author, 1 7th author) one pub in preparation (second author), and three abstracts all third author. I am young (24) and hope to do better on step 2. I will also apply to Gen. Surgery programs as well. I want to ideally stay in the northeast region. What are my chances for NS and GS? What programs should I be looking at for NS? where are good places to do NS roations for someone in my position that would be realistic for getting a position? thank you n advance!

2005 Match
registered 346
cas participants 296
rank lists + W/D 257
ranked 222
matched 154
US seniors 134
US grads 4
IMG 15
Unmatched 84
Positions offered 156
filled 154
left 2
avg step 1 matched 235
unmatched 214
% matched AOA 21%
% matched PhD 13%
avg apps 38
avg interviews 10.3
avg offers 3.8
% matched 60%
% US Seniors matched 85%
% US Grads matched 22%
% IMGs matched 25%

Neurosurgery Residecny program directors really like to see > 235 Step I score. As you see above the avg step I for unmatched is 214. However, your research experience would be a plus, that may or may not make up your weak (I mean for Neurosurgery) step I score. I think, for General Surgery you will have no problem, your score is good enough at least for community based programs. However, As you see above 85% of US Seniors matched to neurosurgery, so Neurosurgery is really not competative at least for US med students because not that many people apply. My advice is, apply to neurosurgery and see what happens (They have early match, SFmatch). If you did not mathced then apply for Gen surg which I am sure you will match.

 

[allendo]

2005 Match
registered 346
cas participants 296
rank lists + W/D 257
ranked 222
matched 154
US seniors 134
US grads 4
IMG 15
Unmatched 84
Positions offered 156
filled 154
left 2
avg step 1 matched 235
unmatched 214
% matched AOA 21%
% matched PhD 13%
avg apps 38
avg interviews 10.3
avg offers 3.8
% matched 60%
% US Seniors matched 85%
% US Grads matched 22%
% IMGs matched 25%

Neurosurgery Residecny program directors really like to see > 235 Step I score. As you see above the avg step I for unmatched is 214. However, your research experience would be a plus, that may or may not make up your weak (I mean for Neurosurgery) step I score. I think, for General Surgery you will have no problem, your score is good enough at least for community based programs. However, As you see above 85% of US Seniors matched to neurosurgery, so Neurosurgery is really not competative at least for US med students because not that many people apply. My advice is, apply to neurosurgery and see what happens (They have early match, SFmatch). If you did not mathced then apply for Gen surg which I am sure you will match.

Can D.O's match into allo NSurg

 

[ROBINHO]

@ESTH0001,
Are u a medical student/resident???

Which NS programmed are considered as IMG friendy??

 

[esth0001]

Can D.O's match into allo NSurg

Yes, but almost impossible.

 

[esth0001]

@ESTH0001,
Are u a medical student/resident???

Which NS programmed are considered as IMG friendy??

I think there are 95 programs, Just apply to all of them if you want to increase your chances. I am medical student but I spoke to couple NS residents and also one neurosurgery residency program director. I think if you really want Neurosurgery you should have 240 or above USMLE step I score. As an IMG you can do one year of NS research and that will make up for the fact that your are IMG. but If your step I is low, I think it is impossible even if you are Harvard graduate.

 

[mpp]

In the Northeast the New York City and Boston programs are relatively more competitive than say U of Vermont, Dartmouth or Brown. Talk with the neurosurgery department chair at your school.

For elective away rotations you can either do them at less competitive programs in hopes of impressing them and inching up on their rank list, or at highly competitive programs where you can get a letter of recommendation from a heavy hitter. Again, talk to your neurosurgery department and see what they think.

 

[skypilot]

I think if you really want Neurosurgery you should have 240 or above USMLE step I score.

Well the average matched step 1 is a 235 so its not that bad.

 

[BigRedStress]

Well the average matched step 1 is a 235 so its not that bad.

What's not bad? my score of 211/86? I know itsn ot good, but I have no control over it now. Which sucks, but I'm still all about NS. I hope that my research will help me as well as my performace in 3rd year, which is great so far.. honored my first two rotations: family practice and psychiatry.

 

[esth0001]

What's not bad? my score of 211/86? I know itsn ot good, but I have no control over it now. Which sucks, but I'm still all about NS. I hope that my research will help me as well as my performace in 3rd year, which is great so far.. honored my first two rotations: family practice and psychiatry.

I do not want to discourage you, but with 211, It is really hard, even impossible to match to neurosurgery. 211 is average and you should consider family practice, internal medicine, pediatrics,..... but since neurosurgery have an early match, just apply and see what happens. If you did not match you can apply for other residencies.

 

[_ian]

I do not want to discourage you, but with 211, It is really hard, even impossible to match to neurosurgery. 211 is average and you should consider family practice, internal medicine, pediatrics,..... but since neurosurgery have an early match, just apply and see what happens. If you did not match you can apply for other residencies.

Neurosurgery is more self-selecting than anything. Look at the percentages that matched. With research and honors, he should definitely try applying, though he isn't a given.

 

[vtrain]

@ESTH0001,
Are u a medical student/resident???

Which NS programmed are considered as IMG friendy??

esth0001 is not a resident, and questionable if this person is even a medical student. Take this person's advice with a grain of salt.

 

[MD Rapper]

x

 

[Myostatin]

The AVERAGE for students matched in NS was 235, so your score shouldn't discourage you from applying. The key things you can do are: try and get excellent letters from the most well known people at your institutiton, 3rd year honors grades in everything, kill step 2 to prove that you can take tests. If you really want it, take an extra year after med school to do additional research if you have to, but don't just settle for a field you don't want to be in.

 

[BigRedStress]

Hello.. this isthe orig. poster... so I met with the chair at my dept. Although we dont have a NS residency anymore at my school, the chair is a former PD at a different program, he said that with my background and (although low) scores, I should be fine in getting a residency somewhere. He said that there is no need to take the step two early and so rather concentrate on my thrid year grades. he also stated that they use step one for the initial cut off of 85 .. and since i scored an 86, i should be in the clear.
frankly, i dont feel like im in the clear...
should i plan step two early or not?!?!?!/! argh

 

[mpp]

If you feel you can do well on Step 2, then definitely take it early. Although they probably once used 85 for a cutoff on Step 1, they certainly no longer do that. 211/86 is well below the national average, meaning your score is in the bottom half of all U.S. test takers. This is not a good score for any specialty if you 'want to stay in the Northeast'.

But it is still possible to match. Do several away rotations in neurosurgery so you can show off to them and get good letters and make good connections. On your rotations show off your research by trying to do a talk to the department where you can impress the whole faculty.

Apply far and wide. Don't limit yourself by location...you cannot afford to do that. Although there are many programs in the northeast, most are ultra-competitive and it is likely you will not even be interviewed unless you rotated there (and even then, it is not guaranteed). Also be certain to have a backup, and general surgery is great.

Good luck to you.

 

[Kannen1979]

There is girl from my school--a few years ahead of me--who desperately wanted NS but had lousy grade (bottom half) lousy boards scores (worse than a 211) and got three offers--she got he first choice--she was enthusiatic, dedicated and a hard-worker. They wanted that kind of person on their team. Moral: There's always hope if you're willing to work.

 

[Kannen1979]

There is girl from my school--a few years ahead of me--who desperately wanted NS but had lousy grades (bottom half) lousy boards scores (worse than a 211) and got three offers--she got he first choice--she was enthusiastic, dedicated and a hard-worker. They wanted that kind of person on their team. Moral: There's always hope if you're willing to work.

 

[emate]

I'm interviewing at Brown next week. Does anyone have any insights?

In the Northeast the New York City and Boston programs are relatively more competitive than say U of Vermont, Dartmouth or Brown. Talk with the neurosurgery department chair at your school.

For elective away rotations you can either do them at less competitive programs in hopes of impressing them and inching up on their rank list, or at highly competitive programs where you can get a letter of recommendation from a heavy hitter. Again, talk to your neurosurgery department and see what they think.

 

[Vriesea]

I'm interviewing at Brown next week. Does anyone have any insights?

The entire day is pretty laid back. Dr. Duncan (chairman) is extremely nice and forthright during his interview. The rest of the faculty conducted standard interviews. They do stress the research projects taking place at their institute and you do interview with the director of neurosurgery research.
Concerning the program, they are a smaller program with adequate volume with no future plans of expanding to 2 a year (as I was told). Limited faculty (7 full-time I think) but future plans to expand (like every other program) at least two more faculty. Residents seemed satisfied. I found it odd that the whole interview they kept talking about how the program was trying to improve on everything which left me with the impression that things weren't exactly great right now. Overall, decent program with nice residents, great chairman (one of the most genuinely nice chairman I've met on the circuit)and on the upswing. Any other specifics just ask.

 

[cooldreams]

Yes, but almost impossible.

yea so impossible that there are DO neurosurgeons teaching in MD neurosurgery residencies.......

mpp is really negative towards DOs for some reason...

 

[cooldreams]

In 1959, the Cline Committee of the AMA inspected a number of osteopathic colleges and determined the education to be comparable to most medical schools, although notes that the facilities are inadequate. In 1964, the AMA changed its policy and now allowed and encouraged DO’s to enter AMA approved internships and residencies. In the 1970’s, six new osteopathic colleges became university affiliated; Michigan state was the first in July 1971. OK State is the first free-standing, state funded college of osteopathic medicine in 1972. Today, there are 20 (23*) accredited colleges of osteopathic medicine with over 2,000 graduates per year. and if you were to bother to review the usnews rankings, yes, even given the choice of over 100 MD schools, there are a number of DO schools that are top ranked, and many of these have GPA and MCAT scores higher than MD schools.

something that may be of interest... and to back up my claim of DOs at MD neurosurg programs:

Francis Kralick D.O. and Joseph Queeney D.O. spin both at Hahnemann (MCP)

Francesco Magnino D.O. peds neurosurgery Wash U

Christian Pham D.O. stereotactic/gamma knife Stanford

Steven Vanni D.O. spine Miami

Steven Ham D.O. chairman peds neurosurgery Michigan Childrens

Anders Cohen D.O. Cornell

Robert Galler D.O. spine at SUNY stonybrook

as do SUNY Bufallo and Pitt

the list continues to grow...I highly doubt that a DO will probably ever became the chair at Hopkins...however, who knows what the future holds

Again top-notched DOs who have aced their boards in addition to the USMLE are just as good if not better than top-notched MDs. If anything, the DO training always reminds you to never lose sight of the fact that medicine is about caring.

 

[mpp]

mpp is really negative towards DOs for some reason...

You might have me confused with someone else. I'm not negative towards DOs in the slightest. There are DO's that have matched into allopathic neurosurgery.
But, if you feel that you will stand on even-ground with allopathic graduates when applying for neurosurgery programs as an osteopathic student, you are mistaken.

If you are interested in neurosurgery and do not want to have doors closed, choose an allopathic medical school over an osteopathic one.

 

[cooldreams]

You might have me confused with someone else. I'm not negative towards DOs in the slightest. There are DO's that have matched into allopathic neurosurgery.
But, if you feel that you will stand on even-ground with allopathic graduates when applying for neurosurgery programs as an osteopathic student, you are mistaken.

If you are interested in neurosurgery and do not want to have doors closed, choose an allopathic medical school over an osteopathic one.

either side you will have doors closed to you. there are 9, soon to be 10 osteopathic neurosurg programs. these are programs that shut their doors to MDs. so to me, it seems only fair that some MD programs shut their doors to DOs. if you average it out, being a DO or MD, you have about the same chance to be a neurosurgeon as the other. the MD may have to goto a MD only place, or the DO may have to goto a DO only place, but the odds are there.

i do realize you are not a DO and have not chosen to fully learn about the DO programs. you can only give advice for that whice you know about.

 

[mpp]

Wow Mr. Condescending...of course I don't know much about osteopathic neurosurgery programs; I did not attend osteopathic medical school.

And although I didn't want to point it out earlier, I will now.

Unfortunately, there are no osteopathic neurosurgeons on staff at Stanford, University of Michigan, Washington University, SUNY Buffalo, or University of Miami as you say in your post above. MCP (which has been Drexel for several years) does not have a residency program in neurosurgery at this time.

You can think good thoughts all you want, but I think the advice still stands. It would be unwise to choose osteopathic over allopathic if you are interested in neurosurgery. This does not mean it is impossible to get good training as a D.O., but you'll have more choices with the M.D. degree.

 

[cooldreams]

Wow Mr. Condescending...of course I don't know much about osteopathic neurosurgery programs; I did not attend osteopathic medical school.

And although I didn't want to point it out earlier, I will now.

Unfortunately, there are no osteopathic neurosurgeons on staff at Stanford, University of Michigan, Washington University, SUNY Buffalo, or University of Miami as you say in your post above. MCP (which has been Drexel for several years) does not have a residency program in neurosurgery at this time.

You can think good thoughts all you want, but I think the advice still stands. It would be unwise to choose osteopathic over allopathic if you are interested in neurosurgery. This does not mean it is impossible to get good training as a D.O., but you'll have more choices with the M.D. degree.

miami - http://neurosurgery.med.miami.edu/faculty.asp#34988

mcp - http://www.hahnemannhospital.com/CW...ourServices/medicalServices/neurosurgery+.htm

ill look more later...

 

[mpp]

The guy at Miami is not board certified in neurosurgery and does 'conservative management of spinal cord injuries'.

MCP / Hahnemann hospital / Drexel university does not have a residency in neurousurgery.

I agree you can get good training as a D.O. and there are many D.O. neurosurgeons. You will likely do fine in your career pursuing neurosurgery. But given the choice, a student should not choose an osteopathic school over an allopathic school.

 

[cooldreams]

I agree you can get good training as a D.O. and there are many D.O. neurosurgeons. You will likely do fine in your career pursuing neurosurgery. But given the choice, a student should not choose an allopathic school over an osteopathic school.

hey i agree!

 

[beponychick]

There is girl from my school--a few years ahead of me--who desperately wanted NS but had lousy grade (bottom half) lousy boards scores (worse than a 211) and got three offers--she got he first choice--she was enthusiatic, dedicated and a hard-worker. They wanted that kind of person on their team. Moral: There's always hope if you're willing to work.

Would this have anything to do with the fact that she was a woman? I assume not many women chose NS residency and are perhaps encouraged to apply?

 

[mpp]

There are few women in neurosurgery...perhaps 5% practicing and 10% in residency. There may be some programs that recruit female neurosurgeons. I think for the most part this is not the case. Programs are very small and the field is competitive. Programs take the best applicants they can get regardless of sex and race.

 

[mpp]

I've found the actual stats (as of 2004) for neurosurgery residents.

Total programs:95
Total residents in training: 828 (0.1% of all residents in the U.S.)
of this

100 are women (12%)
748 are U.S. allopathic grads (90.3%)
70 are IMGs (8.5%)
9 are Candian graduates (1.1%)
1 is a D.O. (0.1%)

From JAMA, September 7, 2005—Vol 294, No. 9

 

[akoo1]

Okay guys, I have a question. I know that person wanted to do neurosurgery and has a back up for Gen surg; do neurosurgery residency application have two different processes? I know you have to match for the sfmatch.org program, but how about the transitional year? I think you have to match for a general surgery spot as well. Is this correct? When do you apply for this transitional year - during regular match schedule? If so, wouldn't this interfere with having a gen surg. match application as a categorical candidate?

Clarify it for me... thanks in advance.

 

[mpp]

You do not apply separately for the PGY-1 year of neurosurgery...it is included in 95% of all the neurosurgery programs. Because of the early match you will know if you have matched neurosurgery prior to the deadline to submit your NRMP rank order list. So you can apply to both without a problem.

In the next few years it is likely that neurosurgery will move to the regular match as ENT and Neurology has done over the last two years. Then again it is not much of a problem as you just apply to both and rank according to preference.

 

[lateness]

If you feel you can do well on Step 2, then definitely take it early. Although they probably once used 85 for a cutoff on Step 1, they certainly no longer do that. 211/86 is well below the national average, meaning your score is in the bottom half of all U.S. test takers. This is not a good score for any specialty if you 'want to stay in the Northeast'.

But it is still possible to match. Do several away rotations in neurosurgery so you can show off to them and get good letters and make good connections. On your rotations show off your research by trying to do a talk to the department where you can impress the whole faculty.

Apply far and wide. Don't limit yourself by location...you cannot afford to do that. Although there are many programs in the northeast, most are ultra-competitive and it is likely you will not even be interviewed unless you rotated there (and even then, it is not guaranteed). Also be certain to have a backup, and general surgery is great.

Good luck to you.

well anything is possible.. i know a friend of mine, who did get Neurosurg at a very good program, and he is an IMG!!! and more crazy he doesnt have good step 1 or 2 scores.. He did have 3 years of great research though and lots of publications, and thats what helped him get it. I know that he is probably the only the very few percent if at all, maybe the only person, but still stanger things have happened.. ( g bush, president twice)

 

[DOrag]

In 1959, the Cline Committee of the AMA inspected a number of osteopathic colleges and determined the education to be comparable to most medical schools, although notes that the facilities are inadequate. In 1964, the AMA changed its policy and now allowed and encouraged DO’s to enter AMA approved internships and residencies. In the 1970’s, six new osteopathic colleges became university affiliated; Michigan state was the first in July 1971. OK State is the first free-standing, state funded college of osteopathic medicine in 1972. Today, there are 20 (23*) accredited colleges of osteopathic medicine with over 2,000 graduates per year. and if you were to bother to review the usnews rankings, yes, even given the choice of over 100 MD schools, there are a number of DO schools that are top ranked, and many of these have GPA and MCAT scores higher than MD schools.

something that may be of interest... and to back up my claim of DOs at MD neurosurg programs:

Francis Kralick D.O. and Joseph Queeney D.O. spin both at Hahnemann (MCP)

Francesco Magnino D.O. peds neurosurgery Wash U

Christian Pham D.O. stereotactic/gamma knife Stanford

Steven Vanni D.O. spine Miami

Steven Ham D.O. chairman peds neurosurgery Michigan Childrens

Anders Cohen D.O. Cornell

Robert Galler D.O. spine at SUNY stonybrook

as do SUNY Bufallo and Pitt

the list continues to grow...I highly doubt that a DO will probably ever became the chair at Hopkins...however, who knows what the future holds

Again top-notched DOs who have aced their boards in addition to the USMLE are just as good if not better than top-notched MDs. If anything, the DO training always reminds you to never lose sight of the fact that medicine is about caring.

All points are valid. Several of these guys are doing well at their places. Steve Vanni & Rob Galler did Fellowships at Miami & Barrow. Anders Cohen did Pediatrics at Cornell and was asked to stay on, just like Vanni at Miami. I don't think any of them aspire be chairmen, but who would have thought they would get this far?? Never say never. Christian Pham, Francesco Magnino, Francis Kralick, Joseph Queeney, Steven Ham, Steven Vanni, Anders Cohen, Robert Galler, Rob Dickerman, & others who have accomplished this are pioneers today, but possible one of the pack tomorrow.

 

[Zoom-Zoom]

I've found the actual stats (as of 2004) for neurosurgery residents.

Total programs:95
Total residents in training: 828 (0.1% of all residents in the U.S.)
of this

Wow, there are 800,000 US residents? That seems a little high

 

[Mortal_Lessons]

What percentage does a 240 put you in? Thanks.

 

[mpp]

Wow, there are 800,000 US residents? That seems a little high

Sorry, it was a typo. Neurosurgery residents make up 0.8% of all residents in the U.S.

 

[mpp]

What percentage does a 240 put you in? Thanks.

If you mean a Step 1 score, it puts you above the average of all those that matched last year.

 

[Zoom-Zoom]

Sorry, it was a typo. Neurosurgery residents make up 0.8% of all residents in the U.S.

Ah, that's more like it

 

[DOrag]

Just in case: If you are an aspiring DO neurosurgery wannabe, Anders Cohen has been advising NYCOM's surgical organization since 1997 and LECOM since 2002. He encourages all surgical specialties and believes that DO acceptance in the national eye is helped by having DO's in all areas. He welcomes all inquiries; I know because I had interst in Ortho and he put me in touch with several residents, programs & directors. You can find Anders Cohen at the cornell Neurosurgery website.

All points are valid. Several of these guys are doing well at their places. Steve Vanni & Rob Galler did Fellowships at Miami & Barrow. Anders Cohen did Pediatrics at Cornell and was asked to stay on, just like Vanni at Miami. I don't think any of them aspire be chairmen, but who would have thought they would get this far?? Never say never. Christian Pham, Francesco Magnino, Francis Kralick, Joseph Queeney, Steven Ham, Steven Vanni, Anders Cohen, Robert Galler, Rob Dickerman, & others who have accomplished this are pioneers today, but possible one of the pack tomorrow.

 

[Mortal_Lessons]

If you mean a Step 1 score, it puts you above the average of all those that matched last year.

Yes, I mean Step 1 score. But can you give me a more quantitative answer? What is the actual percentage of a 240 usually around? Also, what is the average percentage of the score of those who match for neurosurgery? Thanks a lot.

Also, nice photo of Harvey Cushing...

 

[mpp]

They don't report percentages just mean and standard deviation. Since the distribution is not normal so you can only take a guess at where a 240 puts you. I would guess in the top 10-20 percent of all test takers.

 

[medstudent123]

this year the national average is 217 and standard deviation is 23, which makes 240 exactly 1 s.d. above the mean. that's the top ~84th percentile

What percentage does a 240 put you in? Thanks.