Non-traditional's that have made it...I need help!

[champSJL]

Hello all,

I'm a career changer who decided to follow up on his dreams of becoming a doc. I graduated from the University of Texas - Austin in 2003 and started taking my pre-med courses in December of 2004. But there are a few "obstacles" if you will:

- I'm taking my pre-med courses @ a junior college. (something I've heard is not that impressive)

- my UT GPA is a 2.8. But, so far so good I've made just one B, in chemistry II. So my post-bacc / science GPA is a 3.8 and when I'm completely finished with these science courses, I'm going to have over a 3.0 overall GPA with a high science GPA.
----------------------

I know that taking classes at a juco is not very impressive to med school admissions departments so I thought of ideas to bolster my chances of getting in. What I've done / planning to do to counter my deficiencies are:

1). gain either research experience or work @ a hospital
2). definitely volunteer somewhere, whether it's medically related or just in the community
3). shadow a surgeon (I've got a few family friends that can help me with that)
4). take the April 2006 MCAT and be the very first to apply to all the med schools I can

Now, is this plan destined to help me out? Or am I headed towards disappointment and failure. Am I missing something? Can I do something to further bolster my chances of getting in?

Bear in mind that I am not at all opposed to going to the Caribbean if I have to...It's not my first choice - I'd love to stay closer to home, but if I have to I don't mind doing so.

Anyone's responses / thoughts are GREATLY appreciated.

Thanks.

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[LSUwannabe]

Since you're looking for opinions....


Taking pre-reqs at a JUCO doesn't help but I have no idea how much it hurts.

What I do know is that even finishing w/ a 3.0 your chances are awfully low; something I learned the hard way.

Do:
-Community AND clinical volunteering...at least a little.
-Research won't hurt...
-Take the April MCAT and apply EARLY

What else? I'd certainly do a post-bac or Masters program; even if it "costs" you a year.
============================================

I finished undergrad w/ a 2.6 (BS in BCHM, BS in MBIO). My MCAT was above the national accepted average but not freakish, I had civic/clinical volunteering, and was employed in both research and the ER.

After finishing a Masters program in 1.5 yrs w/ a 3.7 I was immediately accepted to multiple schools.

Once I finished (or was close to finishing) the MS adcoms looked MUCH more at that GPA and I was suddenly very competitive; whereas w/ a 2.6 (or to some extent your 3.) it's hard to even get a look.

Just my opinion and good luck...

I think there's a non-trad forum, by the way.

 

[champSJL]

I appreciate your input. It's non-negotiable: I'm taking the MCAT in April and applying very early (as early as possible). I feel that really bolsters my chance of getting in. I've got a business economics degree but I'm hoping the medical schools pay attention to how well I've done my last 2 years @ UT and how well I've done in my science courses since I graduated.

 

[Paws]

I appreciate your input. It's non-negotiable: I'm taking the MCAT in April and applying very early (as early as possible). ...

As another non-trad, these are words that can easily come back to haunt you.

Everything in life is negotiable. In this medical school process keeping an open mind and being flexible and willing to change - ask yourself: "am I willing to do whatever it takes?" - can be great assets in helping you to achieve your goals. I waited ten years to get where I am today (from the idea of medschool to getting the acceptance letter) and I value everything I achieved on the path along the way. Plus, I am at a school I can hardly believe accepted me.

Listen to people here on SDN, you will learn priceless information.

 

[Law2Doc]

It's non-negotiable: I'm taking the MCAT in April and applying very early (as early as possible). I feel that really bolsters my chance of getting in.

This is a bizarre response, in my opinion. A prior poster gave you pretty good advice in suggesting a Masters or formal postbac -- with a 3.0 you probably could sneak your way into one of the SMP programs which would give you a pretty decent shot at admission. Applying early helps, but the value of applying early is incredibly overemphasized on these boards -- with a 3.0 you are going to have an awfully tough time getting looked at seriously by anywhere allopathic even if you were the first application every school saw.
You are close enough to the low end now that with a good masters or postbac and a decent MCAT score, you can avoid the carribean -- why not put in the extra effort to give yourself an easier path to your goal?

 

[sunnyjohn]

Paws and Law2doc hit the nail on the head....

 

[champSJL]

Paws and Law2doc hit the nail on the head....

well, let's discuss. What do I get my masters in? Are there any programs where I can maybe do a masters program and get into a medical school under conditional acceptance? (I think I saw something like an MS/MD type program before on these threads)

I was so set on taking it in April and putting all my eggs into that basket and moving on despite the GPA woes but now I'm not sure after creating this thread.

Again, I appreciate everyone's input.

 

[hobs]

As far as master's programs are concerned, I can't say which ones will be looked on most favorably by adcoms. I went to Drexel's program where we took a bunch of first year med school classes, and stayed for the second master's year. It 'worked' for me in so far as i'm in med school now. One of my classmates went to Georgetown's program, but he's also got an MPH.
So you could do one of those programs, which demonstrate that you can handle the material and do well (provided, of course, that you do well); you could do something like an MPH, which will likely look better on your resume by the time you graduate med school, but may not be all that good for getting yourself in the door; or your could to an MS in some science discipline, but who knows if that will do any good.

 

[Tiki]

I did my first two years at a community college and I got in.

I think that if your science gpa is high, and you rock the MCAT (and by rock I mean 33-35) that would probably make up for the community college classes. After all, everyone takes the MCAT, so it's a great equalizer.

I don't know how much the low cumulative gpa will hurt you though, which is probably why everyone is mentioning the post bac.

If I was in your situation, I would take the April MCAT, wait to get your scores. If they are high enough, I'd fill out AMCAS or the osteopathic version (I don't remember the name, sorry), but I'd also apply to some of the Master's programs. That way, if you don't get in to medical school, you have a fallback option of going to get the Masters without having to take a year off.

 

[Loopo Henle]

I was non-traditional myself. I also served on my school's admissions committee, and I can tell you that they are not impressed with junior college grades, even 4.0's. I would certainly take the MCAT in April, but I would also be looking at taking Masters level classes at a respectable four year college. Then the admissions committee can look at your post-graduate grades, and say "okay, I think this person can handle medical school curriculum." MCAT alone will not get you in. I knew that I needed to crush the MCAT to get in with my low GPA of 3.2, and 1/2 of my education at a community college. I would be aiming for a MCAT in the thirties if I were you. Medical schools also love people that stick it out despite not getting in the first time. If you don't get in, contact the med schools admission people and ask them what you could do to make yourself a stronger candidate, and then DO IT!!! Even if does not line up exactly with your master plan.

 

[Orth2006]

Hello all,

I'm a career changer who decided to follow up on his dreams of becoming a doc. I graduated from the University of Texas - Austin in 2003 and started taking my pre-med courses in December of 2004. But there are a few "obstacles" if you will:

- I'm taking my pre-med courses @ a junior college. (something I've heard is not that impressive)

- my UT GPA is a 2.8. But, so far so good I've made just one B, in chemistry II. So my post-bacc / science GPA is a 3.8 and when I'm completely finished with these science courses, I'm going to have over a 3.0 overall GPA with a high science GPA.
----------------------

I know that taking classes at a juco is not very impressive to med school admissions departments so I thought of ideas to bolster my chances of getting in. What I've done / planning to do to counter my deficiencies are:

1). gain either research experience or work @ a hospital
2). definitely volunteer somewhere, whether it's medically related or just in the community
3). shadow a surgeon (I've got a few family friends that can help me with that)
4). take the April 2006 MCAT and be the very first to apply to all the med schools I can

Now, is this plan destined to help me out? Or am I headed towards disappointment and failure. Am I missing something? Can I do something to further bolster my chances of getting in?

Bear in mind that I am not at all opposed to going to the Caribbean if I have to...It's not my first choice - I'd love to stay closer to home, but if I have to I don't mind doing so.

Anyone's responses / thoughts are GREATLY appreciated.

Thanks.

I am also a non-traditional applicant for 2006. I don't think your junior college credits will hurt you as long as you do well in them. You might also want to suppliment some of them by taking upper level courses at a 4 year institution.

I took Gen Chem I, Gen Chem II w/ Qual Analysis, Physics I & II, Bio I & II at a community college. But I then took Org Chem I & II and an upper level physics at a 4 year university.

If the adcom have a problem with community college credits then why do they demand all your transcripts from every school you went to. They should just say only those from a 4 year institution.

Obviously as a non-tradition candidate your story will be different from the typical applicant who went to a 4 year university and got all the premed courses there. So essentially your status as a non-trad covers up for stuff like community college credits. You just need to strength your application by doing well in them, the MCAT and have good ECs.

Also I think probably a few schools have issues with community college credits not all schools. It is so dum to even discriminate where you got the credits. Are they implying that things are easier at a com. college. Even amongst4 year universities some classes could be easier than others. Plus most non-trads work full time and only com colleges can support their schedule.

Do not let your junior college credits deter you.

Good luck to you

 

[Samoa]

It looks very different to start out at a junior college and get all A's, and then move to a four-year institution and get B's, than it does to do an entire degree at the four-year institution with a mediocre GPA, and then go back to community college for your science pre-reqs. The first says, "I had to prove myself, and I did." The second says, "I don't think I can make the grade at a four-year institution, so I'm taking the easy road."

The grades may be identical, but those two applications will send very different messages about what kind of person you are.

I think you should bite the bullet and do a structured post-bacc program, or if you've already completed the prereqs, find a master's program at a med school with a good track record of sending their graduates to med school the following year.

If neither of those are a viable option for you, then at least enroll in a four-year institution and take some upper division science courses. It's surprisingly easy to be disciplined enough to do well when you don't have all the other distractions of college around you. Plus, professors tend to be more accepting of a late assignment due to job-related issues than they are when it's exactly the same kind of issue, except due to your leadership position in a campus organization. It's an irrational double standard, but at least now you're on the side that gets the break.

 

[InfraMan]

I had a 3.0 years ago (but in engineering). I took 4 pre-req classes at the local community college, got all A's, over 30 on August MCAT, and got into the only 2 schools to which I applied, on the first try. I only had 100+ hrs volunteering, but I had 6 stellar LOR's from various parts of my life.

Just be sure you nail the MCAT. I took 5 practice tests prior to the real thing, with a steady progression upwards in score, and my real score matched my last practice test exactly.

Again, be sure you nail the MCAT. If you don't, those juco grades aren't going to be very convincing.

 

[Samoa]

It was probably the letters, and the fact that your 3.0 was in engineering, as well as your MCAT.

 

[emusibay]

If I was in your situation, I would take the April MCAT, wait to get your scores. If they are high enough, I'd fill out AMCAS or the osteopathic version (I don't remember the name, sorry), but I'd also apply to some of the Master's programs. That way, if you don't get in to medical school, you have a fallback option of going to get the Masters without having to take a year off.

I whole-heartedly agree with Tiki. I think your biggest concern should be to have as many bases covered as possible. Apply to MS programs and allopathic and osteopathic schools if the April MCAT looks good to you. Study first, of course, and take some practice tests so that you don't waste your time if you feel you are going to get below a 30. Also, if you can live with going to Ross or SGU then don't waste anymore time and just do it. I know people at Ross and they have had good educations and have done well with residencies this year. Good luck!!

 

[Mad Cow]

Hey,
Yup, i'm another non-trad with non-trad gpa nightmares. I went to juco for my chem and organic and went to a university for the rest(bios and physics). Hell, i told them when i was asked in interviews about the juco, i said well, they were cheaper, i wanted to test the waters, and there were smaller classes. it didn't hurt to have the same prof for every class i took, including labs, write a letter for me. i dunno what other peeps think, but i felt i did well with the MCAT content on both chems.
Speaking of the bear, you must do well on that. I had a 29 on it(8 PS, 10 BS, and 11 VR) and i went for it. i went with the shotgun approach, apply to a lot of places and hope i hit something. i recommend this only if: you don't mind blowing a lot of money away, and if you don't have any preference as to where you'll wind up. i interviewed and was accepted to every DO program (four) i applied. DO schools tend to have a higher mean age than allopathic programs and that could work in your favor. I am also on an allopathic wait list. Can you say, surprise? I did not apply to any island schools.
Anyway, if you want it badly enough, you can make a good go at it. My undergrad gpa was about a 2.9 and my post-bacc was ~3.95. My attitude carried a bit of the "my back's about as far against the wall as it can get". I worked at a hospital for years, tried my hand in a little research, and volunteered at a teen shelter.
Bottom line: Prove it to them that you have the desire and the tenacity to hold on. May the Force be with you.(i had to, the final installment is days away.)

 

[Tiki]

I was non-traditional myself. I also served on my school's admissions committee, and I can tell you that they are not impressed with junior college grades, even 4.0's.

I think that is totally school dependent. From personal experience, I know of at least three allopathic schools that do not have a problem with junior college classes.

Obviously, I wouldn't apply to Harvard or Yale if I was the OP. But there are plenty of schools that don't look down upon going to a community college, so long as the rest of your application is up to par.

 

[emusibay]

Hey,
Yup, i'm another non-trad with non-trad gpa nightmares. I went to juco for my chem and organic and went to a university for the rest(bios and physics). Hell, i told them when i was asked in interviews about the juco, i said well, they were cheaper, i wanted to test the waters, and there were smaller classes. it didn't hurt to have the same prof for every class i took, including labs, write a letter for me. i dunno what other peeps think, but i felt i did well with the MCAT content on both chems.
Speaking of the bear, you must do well on that. I had a 29 on it(8 PS, 10 BS, and 11 VR) and i went for it. i went with the shotgun approach, apply to a lot of places and hope i hit something. i recommend this only if: you don't mind blowing a lot of money away, and if you don't have any preference as to where you'll wind up. i interviewed and was accepted to every DO program (four) i applied. DO schools tend to have a higher mean age than allopathic programs and that could work in your favor. I am also on an allopathic wait list. Can you say, surprise? I did not apply to any island schools.
Anyway, if you want it badly enough, you can make a good go at it. My undergrad gpa was about a 2.9 and my post-bacc was ~3.95. My attitude carried a bit of the "my back's about as far against the wall as it can get". I worked at a hospital for years, tried my hand in a little research, and volunteered at a teen shelter.
Bottom line: Prove it to them that you have the desire and the tenacity to hold on. May the Force be with you.(i had to, the final installment is days away.)

 

[LSUwannabe]

I appreciate your input. It's non-negotiable: I'm taking the MCAT in April and applying very early (as early as possible). I feel that really bolsters my chance of getting in. I've got a business economics degree but I'm hoping the medical schools pay attention to how well I've done my last 2 years @ UT and how well I've done in my science courses since I graduated.

Since I suggested both taking the April MCAT and applying early I don't really know what's non-negotiable.

Go ahead and apply w/ the 3.0...just don't expect to get in. Is acceptance possible? Of course but the fact is it's very unlikely. Pull a 35+ on the MCAT w/ a demonstrated interest (volunteering/work/whatever) in the field and your odds obviously improve.

There's some solid advice on this thread; it's also pretty consistent if you notice. Good luck.

 

[champSJL]

First off, thanks everyone for responding to my post. I really appreciate it.

I called 2 advisors today, one at University of Texas - Arlington, and one at University of Texas - Dallas. This is basically what both advisors said:

- Masters program NOT necessary before you apply everywhere but maybe as a backup, it's not bad.

- make sure you get excellent letters of recommendation

- finish up what you started @ juco, then take the upper division and Organic at a 4 year school

- gain medical experience, whether it be in a hospital or in a research setting

- volunteer

and finally, without fail, I heard this:
"Someone in your shoes - it's all about the MCAT. If your MCAT score starts with a '3', you'll be fine. Apply early and to a lot of places, you'll be accepted somewhere"

And me, not being picky, being accepted "somewhere" is good enough. But out of what everyone has said on this thread and what the advisors have said - it is literally all about the MCAT for someone in my shoes.

 

[Samoa]

Try doing a search on pre-med advisors and the advice they give...

 

[InfraMan]

It was probably the letters, and the fact that your 3.0 was in engineering, as well as your MCAT.

No doubt it was the MCAT and the letters. I knew I had to overcome a so-so GPA so I made sure everything else was as good as it could be.

I took the 4 pre-reqs at a CC because it was cheaper, taught at night, and the classes actually turned out to better classes than the ones taught at university - 10 classmates, lab taught by professor, etc.

My plan was that if I didn't get in, I would continue and take upper-level sciences at the university.

As an aside, for a non-traditional, I think taking the courses at a CC and then nailing the MCAT (especially after being out of school for a number of years) distinguishes you from the pack.

 

[LSUwannabe]

and finally, without fail, I heard this:
"Someone in your shoes - it's all about the MCAT. If your MCAT score starts with a '3', you'll be fine. Apply early and to a lot of places, you'll be accepted somewhere"

Unless you're a 4.0 person the MCAT's pretty damn important. Given that, many other factors are important (ec's, URM, grade trends)...perhaps none moreso than your state of residence.

I suspect you're a TX resident and that's a great place to be. Their stats for residents are very reasonable and you've got 7 schools.

To think "you'll be fine" just b/c you get a 30 on the MCAT seems like a serious stretch to me...but it's just my opinion.

Either way, good luck and don't give up.

 

[champSJL]

Unless you're a 4.0 person the MCAT's pretty damn important. Given that, many other factors are important (ec's, URM, grade trends)...perhaps none moreso than your state of residence.

I suspect you're a TX resident and that's a great place to be. Their stats for residents are very reasonable and you've got 7 schools.

To think "you'll be fine" just b/c you get a 30 on the MCAT seems like a serious stretch to me...but it's just my opinion.

Either way, good luck and don't give up.

Well, by "you'll be fine" both advisors knew that I wasn't picky at all as to where I go to fulfill my dreams. If it's the caribbean - so be it. If it's anywhere in the continental US - so be it...

But the point is this: get a 30 something on the MCAT and my chances of getting accepted dramatically improve. And that ain't bad.

And yes, I'm from TX

 

[MeowMix]

There is a ton of relevant info for you on the non-trads forum and on oldpremeds.org. Please search and read in both places to get a lot more valuable advice. You will also get more specific advice from non-trads of all types.

 

[Law2Doc]

"Someone in your shoes - it's all about the MCAT. If your MCAT score starts with a '3', you'll be fine. Apply early and to a lot of places, you'll be accepted somewhere".

Your advisor is quite the optimist. While a very high MCAT might give you an outside shot, I still think with a 3.0 in junior college courses you are in the "hail mary" position rather than expecting to definitely "be accepted somewhere" allopathic, and that you have more GPA rehabilitation to go before application is realistic. But good luck.

 

[sunnyjohn]

Very good advice....

 

[lightnk102]

Don't forget that applying to med school is extraordinarily expensive. You should make sure all your ducks are in a row before blowing all that cash. You'll always find someone who will say "I have a friend who got in with a 3.0 GPA without a Master's", but I'd say that that's generally the exception to the rule. Of course, exceptions always exist, and you could very possibly also be that exception. The question is: do you want to bank on that?

Like you, I had a 3.0 undergrad GPA, and I used to work in corporate America. I was lucky enough to have access to a few MD's with insight on the admissions process, and was told that my chances were very very very slim (I got the distinct feeling it was zero, but they were telling me I had a slight chance to be polite and optimistic). I opted to do a Master's at Boston U. and I credit that Master's for the acceptances I have today to allo schools.

As others here have mentioned, I'd definitely take premed advisor's words with a grain of salt. You'll see lots of stories on these boards about advisors being flat out wrong. For applying this cycle, I would say with a 3.0 GPA, you'd have to aim higher than just a 30+ on the MCAT. Don't forget about who you're competing with for those spots. Every other applicant is aiming for a 30, but every other applicant likely also has a 3.5 GPA. If you nail a 35+ on your MCAT, I'd feel a bit optimistic about sliding in under the door at some allo schools. Apply to allo and Master's program simultaneously and check out the post-bacc board for some info on that. Though, quite honestly, it sounds like you've already made up your mind about what you're going to do, and you're just looking for affirmation for it.

 

[champSJL]

Your advisor is quite the optimist. While a very high MCAT might give you an outside shot, I still think with a 3.0 in junior college courses you are in the "hail mary" position rather than expecting to definitely "be accepted somewhere" allopathic, and that you have more GPA rehabilitation to go before application is realistic. But good luck.

I think you are a bit mistaken. My University of Texas GPA is hovering around a 3.0. My science / post-bacc GPA is a 3.8 from the classes I have taken at a juco. Nevertheless I do see what you're saying - I need to either raise the GPA before I apply or continue to make A's but at a 4 year school.

I have decided just in the last few days (and really upon creating this thread) to go to a 4 year university. I plan on taking my Organic Chem I and II, my A&P I and II, my Bio II, and a few other upper division electives there at the school and continue to make the grades.

I'm also in the running for landing a research job @ UT-southwestern medical center --- I feel if I get the job that will like really nice on the app and also provide a lot of experience.

 

[criminallyinane]

I don't mean to sound harsh, but I don't think it looks very impressive to do poorly at a four-year university and then do well at a junior college, because it just shows that you can excel with easier classes, but doesn't prove you can do well with harder ones. I think you need to take some upper-levels at a four-year university and then apply, in addition to doing all the other things you planned on to boost your app.

I think you are a bit mistaken. My University of Texas GPA is hovering around a 3.0. My science / post-bacc GPA is a 3.8 from the classes I have taken at a juco. Nevertheless I do see what you're saying - I need to either raise the GPA before I apply or continue to make A's but at a 4 year school.

What is your current total ugrad GPA? It sounds like it would be 3.1 MAX, which is still very low.

I have decided just in the last few days (and really upon creating this thread) to go to a 4 year university. ... I'm also in the running for landing a research job @ UT-southwestern medical center --- I feel if I get the job that will like really nice on the app and also provide a lot of experience.

Good, those are good things. Definitely do the four-year university thing. But remember that shadowing, research, volunteering, etc, don't make you stand out, they just put you with the pack. You can't expect that this will be an easy road or that things will fall your way just because you wish them to. Best of luck.

 

[bioteacher]

Hey,

I'm non-traditional. I had a 3.1 undergrad and a 32MCAT. I took all my prereq's at a UC. I did research (academic and industrial) for over a year and have seven years teaching experience. I got a 3.8 GPA while getting my credential. I applied to 47 medical schools and filled out over 35 secondaries. I got one interview and am waitlisted. I do have volunteer experiences but not as strong as the average applicant.

I have a teaching credential (3.8 GPA) but I feel this was useless as well as my seven years teaching experience.

Lightnk102 had good advice. I applied to post bac programs at the same time as I applied to med schools. I applied to four and got two acceptances. I will be going to EVMS post bac next year. I would also apply to a few osteopathic schools. With your GPA, even a sub par MCAT should get you in somewhere.