Non-malignant Prelim Surgery Programs

[19pieces19]

I'm applying into IR and want to do a surgical prelim instead of medicine but I heard a lot of programs are just slave drivers who don't want to teach you since you're a prelim and will use you as free labor. What are some good surgical prelim programs that teach those who aren't going into surgery well and are not malignant? Bonus if they have reasonable work hours as well.

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[VincentAdultman]

Surgical prelims are cheap labor meant to fill spots on the call schedule. Your education isn’t going to be a priority because you won’t be there in a year. The hours suck. I would rethink this tbh.

 

[maxxor]

I'm applying into IR and want to do a surgical prelim instead of medicine but I heard a lot of programs are just slave drivers who don't want to teach you since you're a prelim and will use you as free labor. What are some good surgical prelim programs that teach those who aren't going into surgery well and are not malignant? Bonus if they have reasonable work hours as well.

As an almost graduated radiology resident, this is a bad idea pushed onto medical students by psychopathic IR program directors who are trying to show how tough they are to surgeons. It does not benefit your training one iota if you never go to the OR.

If you have a choice (most IR programs are categorical so you actually don’t have a choice), do a TY with medicine and surgery months.

Or do a surgery prelim at your eventual training hospital so when you are finally getting IR training, the other surgical trainees might be a little nicer when they consult you (or you consult them for a complication) because you once worked with them as an intern.

 

[droliver]

Baptist Health Systems (Birmingham, AL) has had a number of surgery prelims going into anesthesia, radiology, opthamology, and even Rad-Onc since I've been in practice 15 years. They have the same schedule, opportunities, and rotations as the categoricals. I will say that watching the people who've chosen to do this, they have been some of the best surgery interns I can remember and none regretted not taking the easy way out with a cush TY experience. Your intern year will set the table for a lifetime of learning and allow you to more effectively communicate with your surgical colleagues at a level you would never otherwise have.

 

[maxxor]

I agree to the extent where programs allow their interns go to the operating room or invest time in their interns as opposed to seeing them as disposable floor labor. My own TY surgery months were incredible, and I had tons of time in the OR and in learning surgical decision making because attending interaction was high and scut was minimal.

However, most people preach “academic surgical intern year Uber alles”, for which the prelims are literally the floor management slaves. This will not help your IR career or gain surgical decision making as no one invests time in the prelims.

 

[irwarrior]

I think the surgical preliminary year at the "right program will be invaluable for the future ESIR or integrated resident. The key things that you will acquire include the rigors of a procedural/surgical field (morning rounds, preop orders, OR/procedural skills, post op orders (looking for post op complications), evening rounds and signout. Also, I would encourage some time on vascular surgery, surgical oncology, thoracic surgery, trauma surgery and ICU. All of these are high yield rotations for Interventional radiology but also for diagnostic radiology. You also want to make sure you get adequate outpatient clinic time and get to see some consults from the ER and floor.

When looking at ESIR candidates who want to do IR, many look at what they did for internship. Surgery>>IM>>>>>TY as a gauge of their true interest in interventional as well as their ability to handle the hours and lifestyle of a demanding IR training program.

 

[st0w]

I'll plug my own residency program, Morristown Medical Center in Morristown, NJ. We treat prelims and categoricals just the same - to the point where most people don't even know which interns are prelims. I'm biased, but I think we're a great program that's very benign overall.

 

[Pir8DeacDoc]

Learned a lot and thought my intern year was very fair..lot of support staff so not a lot of scut. And solid IR program. So I bet they'd consider letting you do a month with them if you asked.
Dartmouth Hitchcock in Lebanon nh

 

[thedrjojo]

I'll plug my own residency program, Morristown Medical Center in Morristown, NJ. We treat prelims and categoricals just the same - to the point where most people don't even know which interns are prelims. I'm biased, but I think we're a great program that's very benign overall.

I'll second that, at least 10 years ago when I was a med student rotating there. My med school/residency/place of employment, New Jersey Medical School gets our interns into the or regardless of prelim vs categorical and while there is slight difference in rotations (we often tailor to what the prelim needs, ie, someone going into IR we would give extra vascular time and theyd get to play in the Cath Lab on angios and stents and coils, and have a few core rotations that the categorical need)

 

[CherryRedDracul]

I'll plug my own residency program, Morristown Medical Center in Morristown, NJ. We treat prelims and categoricals just the same - to the point where most people don't even know which interns are prelims. I'm biased, but I think we're a great program that's very benign overall.

I didn't go here, but many of my friends did, and they echo the same sentiments.

 

[chlorocruorin]

Hey guys, incoming med student here that has no idea what really the TY or prelim year are. Is a TY the same as a prelim year? Also, do you have to apply to this separately once you match into DR, IR etc. ? Or do you have match into a TY or prelim year before then match again into your specialty?

Thanks!

 

[ThoracicGuy]

Hey guys, incoming med student here that has no idea what really the TY or prelim year are. Is a TY the same as a prelim year? Also, do you have to apply to this separately once you match into DR, IR etc. ? Or do you have match into a TY or prelim year before then match again into your specialty?

Thanks!

You'll have plenty of time to sort all of that out. I would spend the rest of your summer enjoying your time off, because there won't be much more of that in your future.

Good luck!