Non clinical options

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sunlioness

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Has anyone here left clinical psychiatry to do something else? I believe the time has come for me to start seriously considering my options in that regard.

Not just the pressures of medicine that everyone talk about. But yes, those. But also? I think this isn't where my passion is. I've spent years feeling both scared of and guilty about this. But I think it's something I at least need to think about and explore.

Six figure student loans are definitely a limiting factor. And I have no interest in starting a company, writing a blog, or being a consultant to physicians who want to leave medicine (this is what the interwebz tell me I should do).

I'm thinking perhaps Pharma, but have no real relevant experience. I'm just rather curious as to what's out there at this point.


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You could become a speaker for Pharma. You could also look into academics, such as becoming a Dean of education at a medical school. I believe UCLA's president is a psychiatrist. If you like research, you could do clinical trials for pharm companies. If you have any interest in business/finance you could look into consulting.
 
I don't have research experience/interest either. But I was thinking about the MSL option. I think I could be potentially good at that. Trying to work my connections and see who I might know. Just in terms of getting real practical info about it

Boomer Sooner!!!

(Sorry. Couldn't resist. And I can't even watch the game because I'm covering a call shift.)


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Has anyone here left clinical psychiatry to do something else? I believe the time has come for me to start seriously considering my options in that regard.

Not just the pressures of medicine that everyone talk about. But yes, those. But also? I think this isn't where my passion is. I've spent years feeling both scared of and guilty about this. But I think it's something I at least need to think about and explore.

Six figure student loans are definitely a limiting factor. And I have no interest in starting a company, writing a blog, or being a consultant to physicians who want to leave medicine (this is what the interwebz tell me I should do).

I'm thinking perhaps Pharma, but have no real relevant experience. I'm just rather curious as to what's out there at this point.


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Medical Director within the managed care or disability medicine industry. I think they are calling themselves "healthcare executives" these days.
 
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Where do you think your passion lies? What didnt you like about clinical psych?
 
You could become a speaker for Pharma. You could also look into academics, such as becoming a Dean of education at a medical school. I believe UCLA's president is a psychiatrist.
the chancellor of ucla is a psychologist, not a psychiatrist. you cant occupy these sorts of positions without a significant track record in academia which is its own kind of hell
 
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bear in mind there are few things that don't require additional training that pay as well. i know several physicians who have gone to the dark side of working for management consultancy firms like McKinsey that do lots of healthcare consultancy work and are very interested in hiring physicians (though they will deliberately put you on non-health related projects at least to begin with). At stanford and ucsf something like 20% of students don't do a residency and instead go an work for some healthcare related start-up. going these routes mean taking a pay cut, job insecurity, and working longer hours however. but some people find it more rewarding and there is the potential to carve out your own path and also earn significantly more than in medicine if successful.

didn't you used to be interested in palliative care? maybe your heart isn't in psychiatry but could switch into working in palliative medicine?

you could also work in preventive medicine, or occupation/environmental medicine which would require additional training including an MPH if you don't already have one.

for pharmaceutical stuff other than being a shill for the drug companies (Speakers' bureau etc), you really do need to have R&D experience, and there are specific fellowships for this now. it may be easier to work for biotech companies but you would need to have some understanding of things like genetics and so on. start ups may be the easiest to get a foot in without additional experience but they offer the least security and again you take a risk and may have to continue doing some clinical work to make enough money, at least to begin with.
 
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Where do you think your passion lies? What didnt you like about clinical psych?

My desire to answer this question is warring with my desire to avoid having my answer attributed to me in any identifiable way. Basically, while I care for people a great deal, this has never really translated into a passion for being their doctor. I haven't really liked any job I've ever had, though I did well enough at them. I didn't like my residency rotations either with the possible exception of IOP. I find myself more resentful than I should be. And it colors the rest of my life.

I think I just picked the wrong career. And have found myself having difficulty making a go of it anyway. I don't feel that I'm doing myself or my patients a service. Again, I'm not bad at what I do. At all. But I could be a lot better. I can't get enthused about it.

I'm not sure where my passion lies. And I'm genuinely not sure I need to find my passion in my work. That would be terrific if I could. But I think I'd also be happy with something I'm not necessarily passionate about if I could make a decent living at it, left time to pursue other interests and didn't drain me.

I'm not up for fellowship or a second residency. Again, if I were passionate about another field, it'd be worth it. But I'm really not. I think I could do fine in pathology, but not if it involves another four years of low paid scut. Plus however stellar I was at histology, I was crap at anatomy and don't want to spend time cutting on dead people just to someday have a job looking at gunk on slides. I just missed the boat on that. Palliative was interesting, but ... Not really.

I like the idea of grad school. An MPH. Maybe an MBA. I generally realized that I like thinking of healthcare at the systems level and not the individual level. And it would be immensely satisfying to work at the systems level to improve the health of populations. But I don't know how you work full time, go to grad school and stay sane. I'm single. I support myself. I have massive loan payments from the last time I went to school to easily contemplate going back.

It would be great to get a job as a sideline reporter with ESPN. I could really do that. But that seems unlikely. I could totally be interviewing Bob Stoops right now.

Meh. We'll see how it goes. I haven't completely given up yet. Adding more variety to my schedule may yet help. But I need to at least stop avoiding the exploration.


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Have you ever done any other work before medicine sunlioness? Its possible you're expecting too much. Working sucks. I've done a lot of different things, some more interesting than others, and I never woke up excited about any of them. Idk maybe there is something outside of work you could do to fullfill you.
 
I think there is a key distinction between not being fulfilled and active dislike. As I said above, I'm not looking to find fulfillment in my work. If I did, that would be sweet. But I can be realistic.

I think it's reasonable not to want to do something that leaves me feeling beat down.

Some people have told me I should recognize how good I have it compared to most people who don't have my level of income or my options. Why this somehow translates into "Suck it up and do a job you never liked", I don't know. I think being grateful for those things could also include taking advantage of them to look into making a different choice.

You know when my cousin left publishing to become a teacher, she didn't face nearly the amount of well-meaning guilt trips.

To answer your question though, yes. I did some archival type work. Catalogued collections. Made finding aids for historical research. It was neat. Not gonna pay off the loans on a librarian's salary. Though maybe it might be worth talking to my library contacts anyway. Medical librarians are a Thing. But again .... Grad school. Ugh. And I just moved away from the town with the best library science program in the country. Heh. Figures. It's a $100k pay cut though. Feasible if I could make the loans go away and not rack up new ones. If not .... Not so much.


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It's definitely an interesting phenomenon when someone talks about leaving medicine. There's definitely this odd pressure not to do so and an almost "how could you?" I never experience this when leaving the teaching field. People just sort of appreciated that I was burnt out and that although I loved it, it wasn't going to be a "forever job."

Sunlionness- I looked into the librarian route for quite a while before ending up in medicine. Librarians are some of the most career-satisfied folks I know, though they are self-selecting. There are a lot of very reputable programs that are conducted online (including U of Illinois, one of the most respected programs). This asynchronous learning could be done while also working some In psychiatry to smooth out the transition. You will not make great money, but there's no price on doing what you love. And you'd still be eligible for PSLF, if you want that route for student loans. And unlike doctors, librarians are exactly the kind of people PSLF is intended for. When they close that loophole, I'm pretty confident librarians will babe on the inside.

Good luck with your decisions and for having the courage to make tough choices.
 
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What about doing a job that will help you pay off your student loans in five years, while preparing to do something else? Then you at least have a definite end in sight. The VA is going to pay off half of my medical school loans over five years, they are paying $120k over 5 years. I'm paying the other half. After that:
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Has anyone here left clinical psychiatry to do something else? I believe the time has come for me to start seriously considering my options in that regard.

Not just the pressures of medicine that everyone talk about. But yes, those. But also? I think this isn't where my passion is. I've spent years feeling both scared of and guilty about this. But I think it's something I at least need to think about and explore.

Six figure student loans are definitely a limiting factor. And I have no interest in starting a company, writing a blog, or being a consultant to physicians who want to leave medicine (this is what the interwebz tell me I should do).

I'm thinking perhaps Pharma, but have no real relevant experience. I'm just rather curious as to what's out there at this point.


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I'm feeling the same right about now. It has been fun playing 'doctor' in not the best way possible. I've been toying with the idea of getting a PhD in Neuroscience.

Other lucrative positions where you're not a slave to production are far and few in between which requires extensive networking.
 
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I'm feeling the same right about now. It has been fun playing 'doctor' in not the best way possible. I've been toying with the idea of getting a PhD in Neuroscience.

Other lucrative positions where you're not a slave to production are far and few in between which requires extensive networking.

You wanna open a bar? I think it would be fun to have a bar owned and operated by board certified psychiatrists. We could name the drinks after psychotropics. The Xanni might be some sort of sweet tequila shooter. The Adderall would have Red Bull in it. Group Therapy would be a tray of shots you order with your friends.

That's my idea, guys. Don't steal it.

On a more serious note, I think I need to be less adamantly opposed to grad school. If I had been less adamantly opposed to grad school a few years ago, I could've been done with grad school by now. A colleague got his masters in informatics while working full time. It's possible. I think MPH and MLS programs at least bear looking into in.





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You wanna open a bar? I think it would be fun to have a bar owned and operated by board certified psychiatrists. We could name the drinks after psychotropics. The Xanni might be some sort of sweet tequila shooter. The Adderall would have Red Bull in it. Group Therapy would be a tray of shots you order with your friends.

That's my idea, guys. Don't steal it.

On a more serious note, I think I need to be less adamantly opposed to grad school. If I had been less adamantly opposed to grad school a few years ago, I could've been done with grad school by now. A colleague got his masters in informatics while working full time. It's possible. I think MPH and MLS programs at least bear looking into in.





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I'm down. Let me know when you want to put the business idea together!
Could be called sykcology.
 
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The harder I work, the less tolerance I have for certain types of patients. Over half the patients that our NP sees I would not want to deal with at all. It isn't just degree of psychopathology either, it has more to do with motivation to improve and not being in active addiction. Just wondering if shifting jobs and populations might help. My last job as clinical director of a treatment center was something I loved doing about 70 percent of the time, now I love only about 50 percent of what I do. If you have any interest at all in working with a specific population, that could be something to focus on and why not start your own place if you enjoy running things. Or partner with someone else. The beauty of being a psychiatrist is that your skill set lends itself to a wide variety of opportunities. I still don't know what I want to be when I grow up but I know it is not grinding out psychotherapy and assessment hours day in and day out like I am now.
 
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Are you full time now? I was thinking you could find a community mental health part time job and use the free time to pursue other interests. Or find a part time job at some other non profit and pursue PSLF for loan repayment. The clinic in my town has the ACT team psychiatrist 2 days a week I think.
 
You wanna open a bar? I think it would be fun to have a bar owned and operated by board certified psychiatrists. We could name the drinks after psychotropics. The Xanni might be some sort of sweet tequila shooter. The Adderall would have Red Bull in it. Group Therapy would be a tray of shots you order with your friends.

That's my idea, guys. Don't steal it.

On a more serious note, I think I need to be less adamantly opposed to grad school. If I had been less adamantly opposed to grad school a few years ago, I could've been done with grad school by now. A colleague got his masters in informatics while working full time. It's possible. I think MPH and MLS programs at least bear looking into in.





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Looking forward to being your crotchety retiree daytime bartender in 15 years.

(Beats being a Walmart greeter...and Mrs. PsychDoc is going to insist that I get out of the house every day!)
 
Are you full time now? I was thinking you could find a community mental health part time job and use the free time to pursue other interests. Or find a part time job at some other non profit and pursue PSLF for loan repayment. The clinic in my town has the ACT team psychiatrist 2 days a week I think.

We're just talking about this. That's the grind we're referring to.
There's little satisfaction in grinding out health care for people who may/may not be motivated for change.
 
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I appreciate this candid discussion. I know many people that are in a similar boat to you, OP, but just keep grinding it out and don't want to actually commit to thinking about leaving medicine or changing things. So kudos for you.

Like one of the above posters said, have you thought about simply reducing your work to part-time, and doing something else the other 20 hours per week? Maybe writing?

Or are you just so sick of medicine/psychiatry that you want to leave it all together?
 
You wanna open a bar? I think it would be fun to have a bar owned and operated by board certified psychiatrists. We could name the drinks after psychotropics. The Xanni might be some sort of sweet tequila shooter. The Adderall would have Red Bull in it. Group Therapy would be a tray of shots you order with your friends.

That's my idea, guys. Don't steal it.

On a more serious note, I think I need to be less adamantly opposed to grad school. If I had been less adamantly opposed to grad school a few years ago, I could've been done with grad school by now. A colleague got his masters in informatics while working full time. It's possible. I think MPH and MLS programs at least bear looking into in.

What do you see yourself doing once you have those degrees?

I'm still trying to figure out what most people with informatics credentials end up doing, and whether it's worth the extra training (monetarily, obviously worth it to do something you like better.)
 
My medical school had a program where faculty, students and residents could all get an MPH for free. Not sure if it still exists but that could be the way to start the transition to more policy type of work. I wonder if there are other programs like that for faculty.
 
If you have any interest at all in working with a specific population, that could be something to focus on and why not start your own place if you enjoy running things. Or partner with someone else. The beauty of being a psychiatrist is that your skill set lends itself to a wide variety of opportunities. I still don't know what I want to be when I grow up but I know it is not grinding out psychotherapy and assessment hours day in and day out like I am now.

Believe it or not? I've done all that stuff already. And with the exception of my first boss out of residency (private practice setting) who was a real trip, I've been blessed to work with some really amazing people. I've had great bosses. Super colleagues. Been treated very well. I don't think the grass is any greener anywhere else. Because I've tried the grass over there too. Well, not smoking grass. That's one coping mechanism I haven't tried yet. But I think I am done trying to find equivalent positions and hoping they'll be better because of a minor tweak.


Looking forward to being your crotchety retiree daytime bartender in 15 years.

Yes!!! And I'd seriously do this if I knew how and felt it had a decent shot. But I don't. Oh well.

I appreciate this candid discussion. I know many people that are in a similar boat to you, OP, but just keep grinding it out and don't want to actually commit to thinking about leaving medicine or changing things. So kudos for you.

That was me for a very long time. It might be me again. Have to see how it shakes out.

Like one of the above posters said, have you thought about simply reducing your work to part-time, and doing something else the other 20 hours per week? Maybe writing?

Or are you just so sick of medicine/psychiatry that you want to leave it all together?

I'm good at writing, but it's not a passion. And for all that I said I don't have to be passionate about my work, I think you do have to be passionate about writing to get anywhere with it. I've thought about writing essays and sending them to KevinMD or something and can't seem to get excited about it. I've tried to find avenues outside of work for personal fulfillment. . . In healthy and not so healthy ways. I mean not anything too terrible, but it totally affected my last relationship. I was into him. He wasn't terribly into me and I hung on for far too long. And he told me once that he felt I was putting undue pressure on him to make my life okay. And that was fair. I did actually consciously think that if I could have a satisfying personal life with him, I could bear with the rest of it. Not a very kind burden to place on someone. And like I said . . . I should have given up on it working out much earlier than I did. And I think that's part of why.

Ideally, I'd rather not see patients at all. But I think being part time would be better than being full time. Better enough? Possibly. Worth considering? Definitely.


What do you see yourself doing once you have those degrees?

I wouldn't get them both. And it would be really really hard to make the library thing work. The MPH . . . That's the one I might need to commit to. Because part of what grinds me down about what I do is feeling powerless in the face of poverty/social factors/whatever. Even when I was working with a more affluent population than I am now, those issues were still there. And like I said above, I think the real problem is systemic and the ultimate answer is going to come from addressing the issues systemically. Like I think it would be really cool to examine the effects of poverty on mental health and figure out how to address that on a population level. I mean . . . you probably still won't get very far. But you're chipping away at it. Not banging your head against the wall feeling powerless because you don't have a pill that fixes the panic that comes from facing homelessness or being financially dependent on someone who's hurting you. So maybe an MPH would somehow put me in position to work to fix these things somehow. But I don't know. I had that idea at 4 this morning so there's probably some kinks to be worked out. If I were to do that, I'd have to go to school and continue to work close to full time. But perhaps not totally full time. The job I have now is actually really flexible with this kind of thing. And it's for a place that likes to do community/population health type things. It would be totally badass if they would help me do this and perhaps have me shift into a different role when I was done. But again, I have a lot more research to do.

My medical school had a program where faculty, students and residents could all get an MPH for free. Not sure if it still exists but that could be the way to start the transition to more policy type of work. I wonder if there are other programs like that for faculty.

There's a local university that has an MPH degree for professionals. I emailed them and asked me to send some more info and to see if there might be someone there I could bounce ideas off of. I doubt it would be free . . . but it's something. Probably better than my Pharma idea. I might actually be passionate about it. Maybe.
 
I like the idea of grad school. An MPH. Maybe an MBA. I generally realized that I like thinking of healthcare at the systems level and not the individual level. And it would be immensely satisfying to work at the systems level to improve the health of populations. But I don't know how you work full time, go to grad school and stay sane. I'm single. I support myself. I have massive loan payments from the last time I went to school to easily contemplate going back.

You may need more training, but you don't need grad school--and grad school would be counterproductive. This is a reasonable pathway and you are actually completely on track, and you just need mentorship to make this happen. Your experience is not uncommon for people who are involved in public/community psychiatry.

I would consider exploring T32 fellowship programs at academic centers near you, and consider doing a part time fellowship in care delivery/implementation science. This career track is actually somewhat burgeoning right now, with ACA and various initiatives for "performance based" care delivery/PCORI, etc. If/when you are more engaged in this type of work, you can apply for NIH loan repayment to deal with the debt issue.

PM me if you want to talk more in detail.
 
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I would love to talk in more detail, but I can't figure out how to PM you. SDN isn't letting me see your profile? This could be post-call brain though.

Thank you though. I'd love to not have to go to grad school and to find something I can actually get excited about.
 
As an MS4 going into psych, this thread is kind of bumming me out. Do most of you attendings feel this way? Does working with patients in psych eventually burn you out?

And sunlioness, I'll PM you sometime soon about a possible option I recently came across.

Edit: and to add to that, are you more frustrated with the system or the patients/practice of psychiatry itself?
 
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Medicine burns out doctors in all fields, nothing unique about psychiatry.

It starts in medical school, extends through residency, and many doctors hit the attending level a little frayed around the edges.
 
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You wanna open a bar? I think it would be fun to have a bar owned and operated by board certified psychiatrists. We could name the drinks after psychotropics. The Xanni might be some sort of sweet tequila shooter. The Adderall would have Red Bull in it. Group Therapy would be a tray of shots you order with your friends.

That's my idea, guys. Don't steal it.

On a more serious note, I think I need to be less adamantly opposed to grad school. If I had been less adamantly opposed to grad school a few years ago, I could've been done with grad school by now. A colleague got his masters in informatics while working full time. It's possible. I think MPH and MLS programs at least bear looking into in.





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I'd chip in on that.
 
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I wouldn't get them both. And it would be really really hard to make the library thing work. The MPH . . . That's the one I might need to commit to. Because part of what grinds me down about what I do is feeling powerless in the face of poverty/social factors/whatever. Even when I was working with a more affluent population than I am now, those issues were still there. And like I said above, I think the real problem is systemic and the ultimate answer is going to come from addressing the issues systemically. Like I think it would be really cool to examine the effects of poverty on mental health and figure out how to address that on a population level. I mean . . . you probably still won't get very far. But you're chipping away at it. Not banging your head against the wall feeling powerless because you don't have a pill that fixes the panic that comes from facing homelessness or being financially dependent on someone who's hurting you. So maybe an MPH would somehow put me in position to work to fix these things somehow. But I don't know. I had that idea at 4 this morning so there's probably some kinks to be worked out. If I were to do that, I'd have to go to school and continue to work close to full time. But perhaps not totally full time. The job I have now is actually really flexible with this kind of thing. And it's for a place that likes to do community/population health type things. It would be totally badass if they would help me do this and perhaps have me shift into a different role when I was done. But again, I have a lot more research to do.

Do you have any data science skills? You've outlined the exact reasons I do informatics stuff and could very well fit into the current outcomes/quality trend (along the same lines as sloux was suggesting.)
 
As an MS4 going into psych, this thread is kind of bumming me out. Do most of you attendings feel this way? Does working with patients in psych eventually burn you out?

And sunlioness, I'll PM you sometime soon about a possible option I recently came across.

Edit: and to add to that, are you more frustrated with the system or the patients/practice of psychiatry itself?
well i think this forum tends to be very misleading because of all the cheerleading for psychiatry as if it were the most amazing specialty ever and was endlessly fascinating. the reality is most people who go into psychiatry aren't really all that passionate about it. we also have a higher number of defectors from other specialties who come to psychiatry because its as far away from medicine as they can see themselves getting, rather than because they have any real passion or drive for working with the mentally ill. even if you do have this passion (and i fall into this camp) it can be draining. obviously any medical specialty can be draining but i do think there are things that can be particularly tiresome in psychiatry.

1. Dealing with patients who are often iatrogenically stuck on benzos is painful.
2. It is even worse dealing with patients who are more explicitly drug seeking and can make you feel like a glorified drug dealer.
3. It can be draining working with people who don't want your help, they want fun drugs like stimulants and benzos (maybe throw in some suboxone), or for you to support their dependency on the state by helping them get or maintain disability.
4. often toxic family members can become your biggest problem and interfere with treatment or enable patients
5. there is no doubt, no matter how respected psychiatry is in the system you work, psychiatry is always shat upon because that is the purpose of a consultation liaison service, to contain the projected anger and other poisonous emotions that other services have to patients, and because psychiatry tends to be undervalued. as a consultant other providers may not listen to any of the recommendations you make and you have to be okay with that.
6. In the emergency room, it can be soul destroying seeing all these criminals become psychiatrized by a system that criminalizes the mentally ill and medicalizes criminality.
7. Some environments can be dangerous and involve working with deeply unpleasant people who are not only uninterested in your help but are beyond it.
8. Psychotherapy can also be extremely draining after a while. it takes a lot of energy and patience to sit with patients, listen carefully to them, and contain powerful emotions.
9. The nature of psychiatry is so personal that we tend to take it very personally when patients attempt/commit suicide and see this as failure on our part in a way that runs deeper than deaths that occur in other fields on medicine.
10. Despite all the claims that we have parity we do not. As a result there is a lot more hoop-jumping to get patients the care they need and ridiculous prior authorizations for things that can be very frustrating.
11. We live in a society where there is supposed to be a pill for every ill, and patients may come in demanding some quick fix solution where there is none. this can leave everyone feeling disappointed and frustrated.

good psychiatric training actually helps you to deal with these types of situations by giving you the skills to set limits, be reflective, understand your own feelings, deal with toxic systems, roll with resistance, and maintain your safety. But even still, if you work in the wrong kind of system with the wrong kinds of patients is can be demoralizing and soul destroying. it is really easy to provide poor psychiatric care without thinking about these things, it's the good psychiatrists that find themselves burning out and becoming discouraged. Also psychiatry can be a deeply nourishing and intellectual specialty raising all sorts of fascinating questions and you learn so much about different ways of formulating patients and psychopharm etc but much of this is not stuff you may end up using in your day to day work.

Personally, I think doing full time clinical care is too much and I plan to diversify things by being involved in teaching and training, writing, policy/advocacy, consultation, service development, administration, forensic work. Its a good idea to shake things up a bit and also to continue to reflect on what kind of work you want to be doing. There is a lot diversity within psychiatry to explore but for some people psychiatry (or any medical specialty) is not what they want to be doing and they will have to figure out where they make get more personal satisfaction.
 
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8. Psychotherapy can also be extremely draining after a while. it takes a lot of energy and patience to sit with patients, listen carefully to them, and contain powerful emotions.

11. We live in a society where there is supposed to be a pill for every ill, and patients may come in demanding some quick fix solution where there is none. this can leave everyone feeling disappointed and frustrated.

#8 is so true! Thank you for this. I've left many a therapy sessions completely drained.
#11 is all too true for child psychiatry, unfortunately. But also psychiatry in general.
 
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As an MS4 going into psych, this thread is kind of bumming me out. Do most of you attendings feel this way? Does working with patients in psych eventually burn you out?

And sunlioness, I'll PM you sometime soon about a possible option I recently came across.

Edit: and to add to that, are you more frustrated with the system or the patients/practice of psychiatry itself?

I'm open to hearing all options. Thank you.
And both. Totally both. And I second everything Splik said in the post above mine. I think I'd be much happier if I could simply stop caring. I've found that rather impossible.

Again though, I really don't want to discourage people. Burnout is a thing. But part of it for me is I think it was really never the best fit. And that makes it that much harder to be resilient.



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I
To answer your question though, yes. I did some archival type work. Catalogued collections. Made finding aids for historical research. It was neat. Not gonna pay off the loans on a librarian's salary. Though maybe it might be worth talking to my library contacts anyway. Medical librarians are a Thing. But again .... Grad school. Ugh. And I just moved away from the town with the best library science program in the country. Heh. Figures. It's a $100k pay cut though. Feasible if I could make the loans go away and not rack up new ones. If not .... Not so much.
from what i have heard it is almost impossible to get a decent job as a librarian as it is a massively over-saturated field. it would be terrible to invest into a masters in library science and then not be able to get a job. especially if you dont have any significant prior experience in the field. that said, if you were doing medical stuff I wonder if you would be able to position yourself to get a good job and maybe even make something closer to the lower end of a physician's salary?

I found this interesting paper
 
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Personally, I think doing full time clinical care is too much and I plan to diversify things by being involved in teaching and training, writing, policy/advocacy, consultation, service development, administration, forensic work. Its a good idea to shake things up a bit and also to continue to reflect on what kind of work you want to be doing. There is a lot diversity within psychiatry to explore but for some people psychiatry (or any medical specialty) is not what they want to be doing and they will have to figure out where they make get more personal satisfaction.

I am just a 2nd year resident, but I think about this stuff a lot. What has inspired my thinking is the many attendings here who have written about this issue, and the warnings against being in full time clinical care - lots of people mention hitting the wall around 30 hours of patient interactions per week. I am coming to the end of a month of 12 hour shifts in the psych ED, and I am frazzled...and I actually like the ED. But the thought of doing more than 2 shifts per week is daunting, and I can only believe it would lead to burnout.
 
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I am just a 2nd year resident, but I think about this stuff a lot. What has inspired my thinking is the many attendings here who have written about this issue, and the warnings against being in full time clinical care - lots of people mention hitting the wall around 30 hours of patient interactions per week. I am coming to the end of a month of 12 hour shifts in the psych ED, and I am frazzled...and I actually like the ED.
yikes 30 hours sounds like too much for me! I think everyone is different and i don't think its just the hours, it also the kind of work, the number of patients you are seeing, and the kinds of patients you are working with that also influence how much of that you can do.

I haven't done 30 hours of clinical work a week since I was a PGY-2!
 
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Why not consider a job where you would primarily be supervising residents and take the more hands off approach compared to those attendings who micro manage? I'm sure its incredibly stressful, but seems like the stressors would be different and your somewhat insulated from the minute to minute in the trenches stuff and can think about patients from a more intellectual standpoint?

Alternatively, seeing as your thinking about leaving clinical psych entirely anyway, why not take a job and practice exactly the way you want regardless of clinic/institution pressures and see if anyone actually has the balls to fire you?
 
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Yeah. Part of my current problem is I'm doing 40 straight hours/week of community mental health right now. I should probably talk to someone about that sooner rather than later. They don't want me to burn out either. Variety (of the right sort) would help.


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Yeah. Part of my current problem is I'm doing 40 straight hours/week of community mental health right now. I should probably talk to someone about that sooner rather than later. They don't want me to burn out either. Variety (of the right sort) would help.


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Wow, does that include any administrative time/time for documentation? I know you mentioned seeing an incredibly high number of patients on your first day. Not to say there aren't bigger things to explore, but 40 hours of direct patient contact is a lot of hours of direct patient contact, especially for super sick community MH types of patients.

Would you be interested in a psychiatry director type of job -- those seem to be a mix of administrative and clinical work.
 
No, they figure that with a no show rate averaging 25% that it works out in the end. Some days it does. Some days it really doesn't.

And yes, I'd certainly consider that. I'd also be interested in being a consultant type to primary care docs. I did a bit of that at my last job.


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Do you have any data science skills? You've outlined the exact reasons I do informatics stuff and could very well fit into the current outcomes/quality trend (along the same lines as sloux was suggesting.)

I don't, but I'm sure I could learn them. A colleague got a masters in informatics and enjoys it.

Working with residents? I've done that. They need someone with more passion. Thinking about individual patients intellectually remains ... Well, meh.

And the pressures aren't really institutional. They're all the stuff Splik outlined.



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well i think this forum tends to be very misleading because of all the cheerleading for psychiatry as if it were the most amazing specialty ever and was endlessly fascinating. the reality is most people who go into psychiatry aren't really all that passionate about it. we also have a higher number of defectors from other specialties who come to psychiatry because its as far away from medicine as they can see themselves getting, rather than because they have any real passion or drive for working with the mentally ill. even if you do have this passion (and i fall into this camp) it can be draining. obviously any medical specialty can be draining but i do think there are things that can be particularly tiresome in psychiatry.

1. Dealing with patients who are often iatrogenically stuck on benzos is painful.
2. It is even worse dealing with patients who are more explicitly drug seeking and can make you feel like a glorified drug dealer.
3. It can be draining working with people who don't want your help, they want fun drugs like stimulants and benzos (maybe throw in some suboxone), or for you to support their dependency on the state by helping them get or maintain disability.
4. often toxic family members can become your biggest problem and interfere with treatment or enable patients
5. there is no doubt, no matter how respected psychiatry is in the system you work, psychiatry is always shat upon because that is the purpose of a consultation liaison service, to contain the projected anger and other poisonous emotions that other services have to patients, and because psychiatry tends to be undervalued. as a consultant other providers may not listen to any of the recommendations you make and you have to be okay with that.
6. In the emergency room, it can be soul destroying seeing all these criminals become psychiatrized by a system that criminalizes the mentally ill and medicalizes criminality.
7. Some environments can be dangerous and involve working with deeply unpleasant people who are not only uninterested in your help but are beyond it.
8. Psychotherapy can also be extremely draining after a while. it takes a lot of energy and patience to sit with patients, listen carefully to them, and contain powerful emotions.
9. The nature of psychiatry is so personal that we tend to take it very personally when patients attempt/commit suicide and see this as failure on our part in a way that runs deeper than deaths that occur in other fields on medicine.
10. Despite all the claims that we have parity we do not. As a result there is a lot more hoop-jumping to get patients the care they need and ridiculous prior authorizations for things that can be very frustrating.
11. We live in a society where there is supposed to be a pill for every ill, and patients may come in demanding some quick fix solution where there is none. this can leave everyone feeling disappointed and frustrated.

good psychiatric training actually helps you to deal with these types of situations by giving you the skills to set limits, be reflective, understand your own feelings, deal with toxic systems, roll with resistance, and maintain your safety. But even still, if you work in the wrong kind of system with the wrong kinds of patients is can be demoralizing and soul destroying. it is really easy to provide poor psychiatric care without thinking about these things, it's the good psychiatrists that find themselves burning out and becoming discouraged. Also psychiatry can be a deeply nourishing and intellectual specialty raising all sorts of fascinating questions and you learn so much about different ways of formulating patients and psychopharm etc but much of this is not stuff you may end up using in your day to day work.

Personally, I think doing full time clinical care is too much and I plan to diversify things by being involved in teaching and training, writing, policy/advocacy, consultation, service development, administration, forensic work. Its a good idea to shake things up a bit and also to continue to reflect on what kind of work you want to be doing. There is a lot diversity within psychiatry to explore but for some people psychiatry (or any medical specialty) is not what they want to be doing and they will have to figure out where they make get more personal satisfaction.

Epic post. I think your insights will translate into career decisions that will serve you very well.

Patients need a psychiatrist that understand these complex dynamics. But the psychiatrist that does, who can also see him/herself in that mess may also decide to spend less time in that area ;)
 
1. Dealing with patients who are often iatrogenically stuck on benzos is painful.
2. It is even worse dealing with patients who are more explicitly drug seeking and can make you feel like a glorified drug dealer.
3. It can be draining working with people who don't want your help, they want fun drugs like stimulants and benzos (maybe throw in some suboxone), or for you to support their dependency on the state by helping them get or maintain disability.
4. often toxic family members can become your biggest problem and interfere with treatment or enable patients
5. there is no doubt, no matter how respected psychiatry is in the system you work, psychiatry is always shat upon because that is the purpose of a consultation liaison service, to contain the projected anger and other poisonous emotions that other services have to patients, and because psychiatry tends to be undervalued. as a consultant other providers may not listen to any of the recommendations you make and you have to be okay with that.
6. In the emergency room, it can be soul destroying seeing all these criminals become psychiatrized by a system that criminalizes the mentally ill and medicalizes criminality.
7. Some environments can be dangerous and involve working with deeply unpleasant people who are not only uninterested in your help but are beyond it.
8. Psychotherapy can also be extremely draining after a while. it takes a lot of energy and patience to sit with patients, listen carefully to them, and contain powerful emotions.
9. The nature of psychiatry is so personal that we tend to take it very personally when patients attempt/commit suicide and see this as failure on our part in a way that runs deeper than deaths that occur in other fields on medicine.
10. Despite all the claims that we have parity we do not. As a result there is a lot more hoop-jumping to get patients the care they need and ridiculous prior authorizations for things that can be very frustrating.
11. We live in a society where there is supposed to be a pill for every ill, and patients may come in demanding some quick fix solution where there is none. this can leave everyone feeling disappointed and frustrated.

Fantastic list. Might also want to add to it that in inpatient psychiatry, it is quite common that a significant number of your patients are basically there because being in a psych unit is a little less awful than being in a homeless shelter. It is frustrating when a lot of times, psychiatrists are expected to "fix" problems that really are more social or behavioral than truly based in mental illness.
 
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Alternatively, seeing as your thinking about leaving clinical psych entirely anyway, why not take a job and practice exactly the way you want regardless of clinic/institution pressures and see if anyone actually has the balls to fire you?

I'm curious: Has anyone actually seen a psychiatrist fired for something other than serious misconduct like having sex with patients or running a pill mill? I don't know how my colleagues are doing on the types of benchmarks the administration and bean counters look at like getting our chart notes done in time and keeping up patient volume, but considering how often I have read chart notes from psychiatrists that don't seem especially clinically impressive and how desperate most recruiters seem to be to hire psychiatrists, I wonder how likely it actually is a psychiatrist who has enough sense to not be grossly incompetent or anti-social will actually get fired.
Has anyone actually seen a psychiatrist get fired over something relatively minor such as not getting their flu shot documentation to occupational health before the deadline or being lazy about finishing their charting in time? (The organization I work for did threaten to fire us if we didn't get our flu shot paperwork to them, and I would not actually dare them to do it, but I wonder how likely it actually is)
 
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