Non ACGME fellowships in Pediatrics

[pediadocto]

Is it worth doing a non acgme fellowship? I am an FMG with a home residency in pediatrics and eligible for such fellowships. I have been told I can apply for a fellowship first and then do two year of residency in pediatrics since I already have a waiver.
Is it of any use since it is non acgme?

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[SurfingDoctor]

Is it worth doing a non acgme fellowship? I am an FMG with a home residency in pediatrics and eligible for such fellowships. I have been told I can apply for a fellowship first and then do two year of residency in pediatrics since I already have a waiver.
Is it of any use since it is non acgme?

Like what? If you want to practice that specialty in the US, then no, it's not worth your time. No ACGME fellowship, means you are not board-eligible and thus can't practice in that specialty.

 

[MEN2C]

Depends which one?

 

[pediadocto]

Like what? If you want to practice that specialty in the US, then no, it's not worth your time. No ACGME fellowship, means you are not board-eligible and thus can't practice in that specialty.

Yeah the aim was to do the fellowship then do a residency to work in the US. But if I won't be able to work as that I guess I'll just do the normal pathway and get the acgme accredited one.

Depends which one?

I've seen unfilled ones for adolescent medicine , peds endocrino and a few more like these. Which ones are you talking abt that is worth doing even if there is no accreditation?

 

[mvenus929]

I've seen unfilled ones for adolescent medicine , peds endocrino and a few more like these. Which ones are you talking abt that is worth doing even if there is no accreditation?

Adolescent medicine and peds endocrine are ACGME accredited fellowships, and I'm unaware of any programs that are not accredited.

 

[Perrotfish]

Is it worth doing a non acgme fellowship? I am an FMG with a home residency in pediatrics and eligible for such fellowships. I have been told I can apply for a fellowship first and then do two year of residency in pediatrics since I already have a waiver.
Is it of any use since it is non acgme?

So just to clarify:
1) You are a Pediatrician in a country that is not the US.
2) You are thinking of doing a fellowship in your home country (Peds Endocrine, etc), then coming to the US and doing a residency in Pediatrics here, and then practicing in your subspecialty without repeating your fellowship here.

Is that correct?

 

[MEN2C]

I thought he meant he did a pediatrics residency in his home country and wants to do a fellowship here.

This is possible and people definitely do it, but then if you want to practice in the US - you have to go back and do a pediatrics residency after the completion of the fellowship.

 

[W19]

Like what? If you want to practice that specialty in the US, then no, it's not worth your time. No ACGME fellowship, means you are not board-eligible and thus can't practice in that specialty.

I don't know how things work in peds, but I worked with 2 FMG attendings who ONLY did a non ACGME accredited neuro-oncology fellowship at Memorial Sloan Kettering and they are practicing medicine in Florida, albeit academia. Both have a full (not restricted) medical license in FL, but aren't board certified... The system sometimes has loopholes that we don't know.

 

[SurfingDoctor]

I don't know how things work in peds, but I worked with 2 FMG attendings who ONLY did a non ACGME accredited neuro-oncology fellowship at Memorial Sloan Kettering and they are practicing medicine in Florida, albeit academia. Both have a full (not restricted) medical license in FL, but aren't board certified... The system sometimes has loopholes that we don't know.

Well, some subspecialities don’t have ACGME accreditation. For instance, Pediatric Cardiac Critical Care is a one year, non-ACGME training program. But that is the excepted standard. That is different between choosing a non-ACGME endocrine fellowship, when there are ACGME endocrine fellowships available and are considered the standard pathway to achieve competency.

 

[W19]

Well, some subspecialities don’t have ACGME accreditation. For instance, Pediatric Cardiac Critical Care is a one year, non-ACGME training program. But that is the excepted standard. That is different between choosing a non-ACGME endocrine fellowship, when there are ACGME endocrine fellowships available and are considered the standard pathway to achieve competency.

My point was they are people practicing medicine in the US without doing a residency... They are practicing with a non ACGME fellowship.

 

[SurfingDoctor]

My point was there are people practicing medicine in the US without doing a residency... They are practicing with a non ACGME fellowship.

Where? Like in a back alley?

 

[W19]

Where? Like in a back alley?

A major academic center in Florida. Treating people with brain cancer. That was the point of my post. Sometimes there are loopholes in the system we don't know.

 

[SurfingDoctor]

A major academic center in Florida. Treating people with brain cancer. That was the point of my post. Sometimes there are loopholes in the system we don't know.

If you say so. They are under major liability if they are treating brain cancer by people who haven't completed a residency as you suggested.

 

[W19]

If you say so. They are under major liability if they are treating brain cancer by people who haven't completed a residency as you suggested.

It's not because I say so... It's happening. @Ibn Alnafis MD can testify to that because he did not believe it either until I gave him of the attendings' name. He himself verified it. My point is we shouldn't be absolute in our language in these forums.

I don't know the extent of their liability. But having work with them, it seems like the specialty (neuro-oncology) follows strict protocol.

Here is the language of financial responsibly: This is straight from one of these attendings' license.

Financial Responsibility
I have hospital staff privileges or I perform surgery at an ambulatory surgical center and I have professional liability coverage in an amount not less than $250,000 per claim, with a minimum annual aggregate of not less than $750,000 from an authorized insurer as defined under s. 624.09, F. S., from a surplus lines insurer as defined under s. 626.914(2), F. S., from a risk retention group as defined under s. 627.942, F.S., from the Joint Underwriting Association established under s. 627.351(4), F. S., or through a plan of self-insurance as provided in s.627 .357, F.S.


Again, this attending has hospital privileges at one the best academic centers in FL, I am not sure they would give this person these privileges if the liability was so high.

 

[SurfingDoctor]

It's not because I say so... It's happening. @Ibn Alnafis MD can testify to that because he did not believe it either until I gave him of the attendings' name. He himself verified it. My point is we shouldn't be absolute in our language in these forums.

I don't know the extent of their liability. But having work with them, it seems like the specialty (neuro-oncology) follows strict protocol.

Here is the language of financial responsibly: This is straight from one of these attendings' license.

Financial Responsibility
I have hospital staff privileges or I perform surgery at an ambulatory surgical center and I have professional liability coverage in an amount not less than $250,000 per claim, with a minimum annual aggregate of not less than $750,000 from an authorized insurer as defined under s. 624.09, F. S., from a surplus lines insurer as defined under s. 626.914(2), F. S., from a risk retention group as defined under s. 627.942, F.S., from the Joint Underwriting Association established under s. 627.351(4), F. S., or through a plan of self-insurance as provided in s.627 .357, F.S.


Again, this attending has hospital privileges at one the best academic centers in FL, I am not sure they would give this person these privileges if the liability was so high.

License? I think you mean contract.

And you nor anyone else have to listen or take my advice. It doesn’t matter to me... just like I wouldn’t take the advice of practicing medicine without a residency.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

It's not because I say so... It's happening. @Ibn Alnafis MD can testify to that because he did not believe it either until I gave him of the attendings' name. He himself verified it. My point is we shouldn't be absolute in our language in these forums.

I don't know the extent of their liability. But having work with them, it seems like the specialty (neuro-oncology) follows strict protocol.

Here is the language of financial responsibly: This is straight from one of these attendings' license.

Financial Responsibility
I have hospital staff privileges or I perform surgery at an ambulatory surgical center and I have professional liability coverage in an amount not less than $250,000 per claim, with a minimum annual aggregate of not less than $750,000 from an authorized insurer as defined under s. 624.09, F. S., from a surplus lines insurer as defined under s. 626.914(2), F. S., from a risk retention group as defined under s. 627.942, F.S., from the Joint Underwriting Association established under s. 627.351(4), F. S., or through a plan of self-insurance as provided in s.627 .357, F.S.


Again, this attending has hospital privileges at one the best academic centers in FL, I am not sure they would give this person these privileges if the liability was so high.

Yes, this is true. I didn't believe it at first until I started researching the topic and coming across foreign educated/trained physicians who come to the US, complete a non-ACGME fellowship and practice. They won't have BC/BE status but they are legally in the clear.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

@W19 I suggest you PM @SurfingDoctor the names of the two doctors that you worked with. He'll believe it when he sees it.

 

[W19]

License? I think you mean contract.

And you nor anyone else have to listen or take my advice. It doesn’t matter to me... just like I wouldn’t take the advice of practicing medicine without a residency.

License... They put financial responsibility in physicians' license in FL... Will PM you.

 

[SurfingDoctor]

Yes, this is true. I didn't believe it at first until I started researching the topic and coming across foreign educated/trained physicians who come to the US, complete a non-ACGME fellowship and practice. They won't have BC/BE status but they are legally in the clear.

If you are talking about foreign trained physicians who complete all their training aboard and fill a specific niche in the US where they don’t have to repeat all the training... of course. That was not the discussion though.

 

[pediadocto]

So just to clarify:
1) You are a Pediatrician in a country that is not the US.
2) You are thinking of doing a fellowship in your home country (Peds Endocrine, etc), then coming to the US and doing a residency in Pediatrics here, and then practicing in your subspecialty without repeating your fellowship here.

Is that correct?

Nope am MD peds in my country and was considering joining a non accredited fellowship program in the US.
The idea was to do what some call as "reverse residency" , ie later try to get a residency spot at that same program. But was wondering if it's worth investing the time in something that isn't accredited.

 

[BigRedBeta]

Nope am MD peds in my country and was considering joining a non accredited fellowship program in the US.
The idea was to do what some call as "reverse residency" , ie later try to get a residency spot at that same program. But was wondering if it's worth investing the time in something that isn't accredited.

Not sure about how the non-accredited idea is going to work out for you as most of those types of fellowships are super fellowships that only take people who have already completed a precursor fellowship, so I'm not sure how you'd qualify.

But your reverse residency thing does happen, but the trend is getting away from this pretty sharply in the last few years. The ABP made it mandatory that you be board certified in general pediatrics in order to sit for subspecialty board exams, and so many fellowship programs are less keen to accept people who won't immediately be able to be board eligible.

I'm pretty sure that at least some fellowship programs list a requirement of acceptance as being BE/BC in Gen Peds upon start date of fellowship, with cancellation of your contract if you're unable to provide documentation to that effect. Doesn't mean you couldn't find a spot, but you're going to have to find a willing and able program and lay this all out from the get go.

 

[pediadocto]

Not sure about how the non-accredited idea is going to work out for you as most of those types of fellowships are super fellowships that only take people who have already completed a precursor fellowship, so I'm not sure how you'd qualify.

But your reverse residency thing does happen, but the trend is getting away from this pretty sharply in the last few years. The ABP made it mandatory that you be board certified in general pediatrics in order to sit for subspecialty board exams, and so many fellowship programs are less keen to accept people who won't immediately be able to be board eligible.

I'm pretty sure that at least some fellowship programs list a requirement of acceptance as being BE/BC in Gen Peds upon start date of fellowship, with cancellation of your contract if you're unable to provide documentation to that effect. Doesn't mean you couldn't find a spot, but you're going to have to find a willing and able program and lay this all out from the get go.

Someone I know got in this year, and she applied to the boards also before for a waiver for the pediatric residency so it means when she does the reverse residency because of home residency she is eligible to do just two years instead of three to qualify for board certification.

I would still prefer doing my three years the normal way but at times given the number of applicants we have to consider what we end up getting, rite?