No idea what I'm doing... in desperate need of advice. Please.

[akb1011]

Hi everyone.

I am currently a senior at the University of Michigan majoring in biopsychology.
I have an intense interest and passion for brain science, neuroscience, neurobiology, neuropsychology, etc.
However, I am very confused on what grad program and career I should choose.
I am a strong student with a high gpa, but a high gpa isnt the determiner of how your life will end up.

I am fairly certain I do not want to be a doctor (MD). Like 90% sure. Although if I did, I would be a neurologist or family physician.
I do not want to be a PA either for the same reasons I do not want to be an MD (I do not like the system of seeing patient after patient with no real interaction, and I do not have an interest in medications or drugs and how they work).
I like the concept of nursing but I am already so far into my BS that I shouldn't switch now, and it would be very hard to.

I considered OT and PT for a while, but I am not sure I am as interested in therapy in that sense. OT seems a little more exciting to me, because I love how holistic it is, and how you can be creative with it. I love helping others.

Neuropsychology sounds perfect for me, but I do not know if I can deal with brain-damaged patients, in an emotional aspect.
Research sounds exciting to me, but I am discouraged since programs are so competitive and it is a risky thing to go into and to find a good job in. Teaching sounds good too, but I think I would have more of a passion teaching introductory bio and psych classes to get students excited and interested in learning about it. I could even see myself teaching at a community college/small school to get students interested in these topics (I had one good professor that changed my life in CC in an intro course).

I am just at a standstill. I wish I had my career chosen and my "calling." But nothing seems just right for me. I am just wondering if anyone has any suggestions for me.

I am willing to get a PhD and I am not super concerned about salary.
What I am mainly worried about is job security, finding a job (I live in MI), and loving what I do.
It seems like the things I am really passionate about are not "good jobs."

Thanks everyone.

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[Temperance]

Neuropsychology sounds perfect for me, but I do not know if I can deal with brain-damaged patients, in an emotional aspect.
Research sounds exciting to me, but I am discouraged since programs are so competitive and it is a risky thing to go into and to find a good job in. Teaching sounds good too, but I think I would have more of a passion teaching introductory bio and psych classes to get students excited and interested in learning about it. I could even see myself teaching at a community college/small school to get students interested in these topics (I had one good professor that changed my life in CC in an intro course).

Have you done any research or been a teaching assistant? Both of these opportunities are good ways to find out if these are things you would enjoy doing as a career. If you're in your fall semester of senior year, then there is still some time to get both of these experiences.

 

[akb1011]

Have you done any research or been a teaching assistant? Both of these opportunities are good ways to find out if these are things you would enjoy doing as a career. If you're in your fall semester of senior year, then there is still some time to get both of these experiences.

Hi!
I do not have experiences in these, but there are a lot of opportunities around where I live. I am thinking about getting a lab assistant job after I graduate to just see if I am interested in it. Would you recommend this before graduate school? I am currently a tutor and enjoy that a lot. I think I do really like teaching, but cannot really see myself teaching very upper-level classes, if that makes sense.

 

[Temperance]

Hi!
I do not have experiences in these, but there are a lot of opportunities around where I live. I am thinking about getting a lab assistant job after I graduate to just see if I am interested in it. Would you recommend this before graduate school? I am currently a tutor and enjoy that a lot. I think I do really like teaching, but cannot really see myself teaching very upper-level classes, if that makes sense.

Yes, it's a good idea, especially if you do decide on graduate school. Those jobs are highly competitive, though, so you should still volunteer at a lab while you're in school so you can get some experience.

You'll likely have the chance to teach introductory courses as a graduate student, depending on the program. Once you're ready to choose programs, look at what teaching opportunities they offer. Once you get a master's degree (which will usually be en-route in a PhD program), you'll be qualified to teach at the community college level. Adjunct teaching positions can be difficult to obtain, however, and tenure-track positions even more so.

 

[akb1011]

Yes, it's a good idea, especially if you do decide on graduate school. Those jobs are highly competitive, though, so you should still volunteer at a lab while you're in school so you can get some experience.

You'll likely have the chance to teach introductory courses as a graduate student, depending on the program. Once you're ready to choose programs, look at what teaching opportunities they offer. Once you get a master's degree (which will usually be en-route in a PhD program), you'll be qualified to teach at the community college level. Adjunct teaching positions can be difficult to obtain, however, and tenure-track positions even more so.

Everything you are saying is known to me, and is why I am freaking out. I have so much passion for the things I am interested in, but nothing really on paper. Everything just seems so competitive and it seems like I do not have a chance even though I have strong grades, letters of req, etc. Very discouraging! Sometimes I just think I should completely leave the science/medical field idea

 

[deleted106747]

Everything you are saying is known to me, and is why I am freaking out. I have so much passion for the things I am interested in, but nothing really on paper. Everything just seems so competitive and it seems like I do not have a chance even though I have strong grades, letters of req, etc. Very discouraging! Sometimes I just think I should completely leave the science/medical field idea

If you like Neuropsychology, I would recommend not letting the concerns about dealing with brain-damaged patients emotionally get in the way. You can get help managing that aspect of it. There's also medical lab work that doesn't involve patient care - fields like neuropathology or medical research.

 

[akb1011]

If you like Neuropsychology, I would recommend not letting the concerns about dealing with brain-damaged patients emotionally get in the way. You can get help managing that aspect of it. There's also medical lab work that doesn't involve patient care - fields like neuropathology or medical research.

Thanks for the reply. Do you have any experience with neuropsych or any info about it that you think would be helpful? I know a lot of it deals with testing and diagnosing which is mainly what i am interested in. But i am not sure i would be good at/interested in psychotherapy for brain damaged patients. Maybe being a neurologist would be for me considering this? I am not sure! Thank you

 

[psych.meout]

If you like Neuropsychology, I would recommend not letting the concerns about dealing with brain-damaged patients emotionally get in the way. You can get help managing that aspect of it. There's also medical lab work that doesn't involve patient care - fields like neuropathology or medical research.

Sure, you get plenty of training in intervention and therapy, which gives you the skills to work with various kinds of patients, but not being able to "emotionally deal" with "brain damaged" patients would likely be a huge barrier. A crucial part of working with these patients, who will likely make up a large chunk of your patient base (e.g. acquired and traumatic brain injuries, dementia, etc.), is delivering feedback based on assessment results, which are often undesirable. If you don't think you can handle telling patient that they won't be able to drive anymore or live independently or that their cognitive deficits are likely permanent or will progressively decline further over time, then neuropsychology may not be for you.

 

[psych.meout]

Thanks for the reply. Do you have any experience with neuropsych or any info about it that you think would be helpful? I know a lot of it deals with testing and diagnosing which is mainly what i am interested in. But i am not sure i would be good at/interested in psychotherapy for brain damaged patients. Maybe being a neurologist would be for me considering this? I am not sure! Thank you

You're likely not going to be doing therapy with these patients, but therapy skills are really important, because providing feedback is crucial and you need to manage concerns in multiple domains, from psychopathology to neurocognitive deficits to other medical concerns.

You should probably read up more on the everyday practice of these different career paths to see what you feel most enthusiastic about. It might also help to get a job related to the area you are interested in before you invest the time, energy, and money into med school or grad school. If you still want to try neuropsychology, try to find a psychometrist position.

 

[akb1011]

You're likely not going to be doing therapy with these patients, but therapy skills are really important, because providing feedback is crucial and you need to manage concerns in multiple domains, from psychopathology to neurocognitive deficits to other medical concerns.

You should probably read up more on the everyday practice of these different career paths to see what you feel most enthusiastic about. It might also help to get a job related to the area you are interested in before you invest the time, energy, and money into med school or grad school. If you still want to try neuropsychology, try to find a psychometrist position.

Thank you so much for your replies. In terms of the therapy, that is what i am less interested in. I am ok with talking to patients and discussing their lives with their disabilities. I used to want to be an occupational therapist and have shadowed many of them. They also deal with cognitive impairments, and as long as I am not specifically treating their illnesses with therapy, I think i would enjoy it. I also think a lot of the comfort with these things comes with experience and exposure to it. I think I might just be psyching myself out right now. I am just very interested in the brain and behavior. My favorite classes are about how the brain works and how it affects behavior. I guess my main concern is that a clinical psych/neuro focus would be too therapy-heavy, and not as science focused (although science is a large part of it). I love neurobiology and the more science aspects of it. In that sense, I would love to do research. But that is a huge uphill battle I do not think I would want to commit to! It seems like neuropsychology is one of my #1 interests right now.

 

[WisNeuro]

Thanks for the reply. Do you have any experience with neuropsych or any info about it that you think would be helpful? I know a lot of it deals with testing and diagnosing which is mainly what i am interested in. But i am not sure i would be good at/interested in psychotherapy for brain damaged patients. Maybe being a neurologist would be for me considering this? I am not sure! Thank you

I am a neuropsychologist and I do not do much therapy these days. And, the therapy that I do is optional, because I still enjoy doing some of it now and then. So, you don't need to do any therapy at all as a neuropsychologist. That being said, the skills you learn in your therapy training are invaluable when it comes to things like feedback, especially when delivering bad news. You better be able to validate fears and anxiety when you tell a family that the patient has fairly clear signs of Alzheimer's disease, and be able to guide them through the not very easy to talk about recommendations, such as planning for an assisted care facility when things reach a certain point. If you can't deal with negative outcomes and patients who will continue to worsen, most jobs in the neuro field are probably not for you.

Also, if you go the OT route, don't get into the habit of mis-using neuropsychological instruments, clearly not understanding things like practice effects and norms. Drives me nuts.

 

[psych.meout]

Thank you so much for your replies. In terms of the therapy, that is what i am less interested in. I am ok with talking to patients and discussing their lives with their disabilities. I used to want to be an occupational therapist and have shadowed many of them. They also deal with cognitive impairments, and as long as I am not specifically treating their illnesses with therapy, I think i would enjoy it. I also think a lot of the comfort with these things comes with experience and exposure to it. I think I might just be psyching myself out right now. I am just very interested in the brain and behavior. My favorite classes are about how the brain works and how it affects behavior. I guess my main concern is that a clinical psych/neuro focus would be too therapy-heavy, and not as science focused (although science is a large part of it). I love neurobiology and the more science aspects of it. In that sense, I would love to do research. But that is a huge uphill battle I do not think I would want to commit to! It seems like neuropsychology is one of my #1 interests right now.

You should read this article:
The Research Domain Criteria (RDoC): an analysis of methodological and conceptual challenges. - PubMed - NCBI

Don't assume that certain levels of measurement are better science or are more valid and reliable simply because they are biologically or neurologically-oriented.

 

[psych.meout]

I am a neuropsychologist and I do not do much therapy these days. And, the therapy that I do is optional, because I still enjoy doing some of it now and then. So, you don't need to do any therapy at all as a neuropsychologist. That being said, the skills you learn in your therapy training are invaluable when it comes to things like feedback, especially when delivering bad news. You better be able to validate fears and anxiety when you tell a family that the patient has fairly clear signs of Alzheimer's disease, and be able to guide them through the not very easy to talk about recommendations, such as planning for an assisted care facility when things reach a certain point. If you can't deal with negative outcomes and patients who will continue to worsen, most jobs in the neuro field are probably not for you.

Also, if you go the OT route, don't get into the habit of mis-using neuropsychological instruments, clearly not understanding things like practice effects and norms. Drives me nuts.

On another forum, some guy was humble-bragging about his 130 FSIQ, saying that he also has LD and ADHD and gets intelligence testing at least every 5 years. He said his range of FSIQ scores were between at least 130 and down to "being functionally ******ed."

 

[WisNeuro]

On another forum, some guy was humble-bragging about his 130 FSIQ, saying that he also has LD and ADHD and gets intelligence testing at least every 5 years. He said his range of FSIQ scores were between at least 130 and down to "being functionally ******ed."

There should be some variability in IQ tests over time, just from measurement error, but a 3+SD swing is inconceivable. That is just incompetence by the examiner or invalid testing by the examinee.

 

[psych.meout]

There should be some variability in IQ tests over time, just from measurement error, but a 3+SD swing is inconceivable. That is just incompetence by the examiner or invalid testing by the examinee.

Exactly what I was thinking. There should be some variability, depending on measurement error, the ages at which the testing occurred, if there were any important events (e.g. traumatic vs acquired brain injuries), etc., but the scores on the major intelligence tests still have good reliability and the variability shouldn't be that huge. I also mentioned it because testing that frequently with the same instruments is obviously going to lead to some practice effects.

 

[PsyDr]

1) don't confuse diagnosis and disability. They are very separate concepts, and the WHO doesn't even believe in the latter anymore.

2) I, and many of my colleagues, have a significant issue with slp/pt/ot treating psychiatric patients. Outside their scope, extremely limited evidence, idiotic use of psych tests that they have zero training in, and many use voodoo theories. Those that treat within their scope using evidence based treatments are invaluable.

3) some neuropsychologists, although they appear to be a minority, do zero psychotherapy. That being said, wisneuro's point is spot on. Telling someone their disease process is associated with a short life expectancy or they are gonna die not knowing who their spouse is tends to evoke some emotions.

4) I would argue that the social science aspect is more difficult. You can know the hell out of behavioral neurology, but that should be interpreted with other findings. Sex in severe tbi has biological, social, and psychological factors. Knowing things like one of the more prevalent factors in couples sexual difficulties is a male preference for masturbation over intercourse is helpful so as not to attribute dissatisfaction to erectioe dysfunction.

5) @psych.meout theres a lot of *****s with powerful pickup trucks that are only used to get groceries. Seems sad when people think that having an ability that they never use to achieve something says anything about their character.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Just wanted to add that IMO a good clinical psychologist, even if they are not a neuropsychologist, should have a thorough knowledge and understanding of neurobiological function as well as general phsyiological function and how common chronic illnesses impact psychological functioning. To me, psychotherapists that don't know this stuff are operating with quite a handicap. I both use and continue to add to this knowledge base every single day.

 

[Justanothergrad]

There should be some variability in IQ tests over time, just from measurement error, but a 3+SD swing is inconceivable. That is just incompetence by the examiner or invalid testing by the examinee.

Agreed, although another source of variance may be the test administered. WJ tends to produce lower FSIQ estimates by about .5-1SD in my experience because, I believe, of some specific CHC factors excluded from the WAIS.

2) I, and many of my colleagues, have a significant issue with slp/pt/ot treating psychiatric patients. Outside their scope, extremely limited evidence, idiotic use of psych tests that they have zero training in, and many use voodoo theories. Those that treat within their scope using evidence based treatments are invaluable.

+1. Another instance of us giving our practice away to those who are not trained to perform it competently. come on APA.

 

[deleted106747]

Thanks for the reply. Do you have any experience with neuropsych or any info about it that you think would be helpful? I know a lot of it deals with testing and diagnosing which is mainly what i am interested in. But i am not sure i would be good at/interested in psychotherapy for brain damaged patients. Maybe being a neurologist would be for me considering this? I am not sure! Thank you

My training is in health psychology, so most of my interaction with neuropsych is through consulting with them. None of the neuropsychologists I know do psychotherapy.

Sure, you get plenty of training in intervention and therapy, which gives you the skills to work with various kinds of patients, but not being able to "emotionally deal" with "brain damaged" patients would likely be a huge barrier. A crucial part of working with these patients, who will likely make up a large chunk of your patient base (e.g. acquired and traumatic brain injuries, dementia, etc.), is delivering feedback based on assessment results, which are often undesirable. If you don't think you can handle telling patient that they won't be able to drive anymore or live independently or that their cognitive deficits are likely permanent or will progressively decline further over time, then neuropsychology may not be for you.

Sure, but the OP is a senior in college. There were plenty of things that seemed overwhelming to me the first time I did them - working in inpatient psych, dealing with psychosis - I felt overwhelmed when I first faced it. Now I can't imagine why I'd've ever been fazed by it. Some of any sort of medical work is getting used to things that you don't have experience with. I'm sure the first time many surgical residents made a cut, they felt overwhelmed.

 

[wtfook]

Hi everyone.

I am currently a senior at the University of Michigan majoring in biopsychology.
I have an intense interest and passion for brain science, neuroscience, neurobiology, neuropsychology, etc.
However, I am very confused on what grad program and career I should choose.
I am a strong student with a high gpa, but a high gpa isnt the determiner of how your life will end up.

I am fairly certain I do not want to be a doctor (MD). Like 90% sure. Although if I did, I would be a neurologist or family physician.
I do not want to be a PA either for the same reasons I do not want to be an MD (I do not like the system of seeing patient after patient with no real interaction, and I do not have an interest in medications or drugs and how they work).
I like the concept of nursing but I am already so far into my BS that I shouldn't switch now, and it would be very hard to.

I considered OT and PT for a while, but I am not sure I am as interested in therapy in that sense. OT seems a little more exciting to me, because I love how holistic it is, and how you can be creative with it. I love helping others.

Neuropsychology sounds perfect for me, but I do not know if I can deal with brain-damaged patients, in an emotional aspect.
Research sounds exciting to me, but I am discouraged since programs are so competitive and it is a risky thing to go into and to find a good job in. Teaching sounds good too, but I think I would have more of a passion teaching introductory bio and psych classes to get students excited and interested in learning about it. I could even see myself teaching at a community college/small school to get students interested in these topics (I had one good professor that changed my life in CC in an intro course).

I am just at a standstill. I wish I had my career chosen and my "calling." But nothing seems just right for me. I am just wondering if anyone has any suggestions for me.

I am willing to get a PhD and I am not super concerned about salary.
What I am mainly worried about is job security, finding a job (I live in MI), and loving what I do.
It seems like the things I am really passionate about are not "good jobs."

Thanks everyone.

Have you talked to an advisor AT Michigan about this? As an alum of UMich who majored in bio and psych, I can tell you that there is a volunteer experience for anything you could possibly be interested in. It's your last year so I would highly recommend going out and finding some opportunities to test out your interests. TA'ing. Working in a neuropsych lab with a prof who is researching an area of interest for you. Working at the hospital in their neurology department. Michigan is rich with resources and when I was there I basically volunteered at a ton of places to try out what I liked. PLUS it'll look good on your resume to say you have research experience in a lab or direct experience with patients. Neuropsych isn't all work with brain damaged patients either. Neuropsych research is also involves looking at normally functioning individuals to understand normal brain functioning. Don't be afraid to reach out to professors and see if they're looking for additions to their lab. I did that my senior year and when I graduated, I actually got put on the lab's payroll and worked there all summer full time. I got to stay in Ann Arbor, pay my rent, and get some great research experience.

In addition, you don't need to worry about jumping straight into a PhD either. There are lots of 2-year full-time research assistant jobs if you're willing to move out of Michigan. But if not, you might be able to find something at Michigan or Michigan State. If you wanna go the PhD route, you'd wanna build your research portfolio and publish anyway. Take a couple years out of college to figure your life out since you're so unsure. There isn't a rush, especially if you're thinking about committing to a 5-year graduate program. Michigan is a good school and if you graduated with a high GPA, you're probably a good candidate for these jobs (depending on other experience).

 

[ClinicalABA]

Neuropsychology sounds perfect for me, but I do not know if I can deal with brain-damaged patients, in an emotional aspect.

The ability to "deal" with the emotional aspects of clients is a skill, to be learned and perfected through education and experience, rather than a pre-requisite skill or "inate" ability. Good doctoral clinical training (which is the foundation for good neuropsych training) should have some focus on developing this skill. Just as you wouldn't expect yourself to be proficient yet with neuropsch test administration or differential diagnosis, you shouldn't expect proficiency with this other area of clinical practice.

I cut my clinical teeth working with individuals with acquired brain injury (ABI), first in a specialized nursing/rehab facility (general first rehab placement post hospital/acute care), and then in a school for children with ABI. I was a boneheaded 20 year old when I started, no more emotionally mature than any other typical undergrad trying to figure things out, taking the job in the rehab center because the pay and hours were good (and I didn't have enough experience to get a gig in a bar or restaurant). I quickly learned learned to be inspired by the clients and families who, despite generally devastating and life changing injuries, showed incredible perseverance, fortitude, generosity, and humor. Sure, there is some sadness, but you learn techniques for refocusing your thoughts and behaviors on the common goal of progress.