New rules for IMGs in Canada

[ssc_396]

I thought I'd start a new thread for this.

Obviously lots has been said on ezboard but there seems to be more IMGs visiting SDN so I'm wondering what your thoughts are.

I was initially skeptical and against allowing IMGs into the first round. Having thought about it I do think it’s not the end of the world for those of us who have been accepted to LCME schools. However I do not like the idea of a parallel match. I feel this might cause more problems than it’s worth. Can you imagine Candian residency directors being told that they are being forced to accept say 5 Candians and 5 IMGs? I can’t imagine this will go over well. I’d rather a free for all where everything is available to everyone. Then Canadians who couldn’t get in have a chance to redeem themselves and make it back while simultaneously keeping those Canadians who did get spots on their toes.

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[Badkarma25]

it sure will be interesting to see how this works next year. i don't see why the canadian med students i know are getting all pissy about this. there is no way they will ever create a system whereby canadian students will be left out of residency spots (unless they deserve to be). i am fully supportive of the fact that if you're let into a canadian school, you should be looked after in terms of postgraduate training but i don't believe you should be able to slide into a residency JUST because you went to a canadian school. if you're a social misfit or a tool, tough break.

 

[arcticmonkeys]

Nothing is finalized yet, right? So it's still all speculation right now... of course, I'm all for easier IMG integration. Let's see what's going to happen though...

 

[firetown]

I thought I'd start a new thread for this.

Obviously lots has been said on ezboard but there seems to be more IMGs visiting SDN so I'm wondering what your thoughts are.

I was initially skeptical and against allowing IMGs into the first round. Having thought about it I do think it’s not the end of the world for those of us who have been accepted to LCME schools. However I do not like the idea of a parallel match. I feel this might cause more problems than it’s worth. Can you imagine Candian residency directors being told that they are being forced to accept say 5 Candians and 5 IMGs? I can’t imagine this will go over well. I’d rather a free for all where everything is available to everyone. Then Canadians who couldn’t get in have a chance to redeem themselves and make it back while simultaneously keeping those Canadians who did get spots on their toes.

Is this parallel match only in Ontario or for all the provinces. Is it something that is going to be different from individual province IMG programs or they are scrapping all these programs and only doing a parallel match with Carms.

 

[ssc_396]

Is this parallel match only in Ontario or for all the provinces. Is it something that is going to be different from individual province IMG programs or they are scrapping all these programs and only doing a parallel match with Carms.

I understand that all provinces will do a parallel match. And so provinces with specific IMG programs will simply enter these spots into the match. However, nothing is final yet and I think the final verdict will be out early July. The real pickle is how they will divy up the spots.

 

[Badkarma25]

hey,
my understanding is that ontario will remain the 'odd man out' and continue with its img clearinghouse program. i could be wrong about that but i THOUGHT thats what i read in the info i got. i'm open to being corrected though.

 

[Jocks]

hey,
my understanding is that ontario will remain the 'odd man out' and continue with its img clearinghouse program. i could be wrong about that but i THOUGHT thats what i read in the info i got. i'm open to being corrected though.

Ontario currently participates in the match with the same rules as all the other prvinces (2nd round). All the deans met in London last week and voted unanimously to adopt new rules regarding IMG's in the match. Of course the actual number of IMG's matching won't change much....they'll just be able to match to other specialties besides FP.

 

[docbill]

Ontario currently participates in the match with the same rules as all the other prvinces (2nd round). All the deans met in London last week and voted unanimously to adopt new rules regarding IMG's in the match. Of course the actual number of IMG's matching won't change much....they'll just be able to match to other specialties besides FP.

Jocks

Any word if DO will also be able to match 1st?


BA

 

[firetown]

Would be interesting to see how all this unfolds. My preference, have one match like the US and have all positions together such as the US. This will level the playing field with CMG's having the advantage for more competitive residencies.

 

[BlondeCookie]

This is merely in the propasal stages and a parallel match would certainly not be a 1:1 ratio. It is under design so that a more so-calle "fair" process would ensure that Canadians are not competing against international grads for the same spot like a big free-for-all would be. There's going to be complainers with either system. Each method has its pluses and minuses.

 

[pdemaio]

Can anyone verify for me when and where this rumour started?

 

[Squint]

Can anyone verify for me when and where this rumour started?

Where is the start of the story here? What change is being proposed?

 

[Jocks]

Jocks

Any word if DO will also be able to match 1st?


BA

Right now they can match first round in Ontario and 2nd round Alberta. These new rules don't change that, they strictly refer to IMG's, which are considered different than DO's.

~Jocks

 

[docbill]

Well.. its a bit tricky since only first round FP in Ontario. NOT IM or any other specialty.

I ask because the info about the IMG matches, sais IMG and non-LCME schools.

 

[vnsa]

Can someone PLEASE say where/why/how these rumours started, and what exactly these new CaRMS rules for IMGs are going to be????

 

[Kakoshi]

It's not a rumour. I got an email from PAR BC (resident's association). Check out the pdf here
http://www.par-bc.org/uploads/news/1148677129-bulletin_v1_i3.pdf
Obviously there are against this intergration.

 

[Knight_MD]

If only.....

However, the problem in Canada, is the extremely limited number of total available residencies in the country. In relation or not in relation to the demand.

It's the same pie, but they're allowing more ppl to 'have the chance' to get a bite at it.

Sounds really nice, but will have poor significance. That explains why most Canadian Med School Grads shudn't/aren't worried a lot.

I'm a Canadian IMG. God willing, my plan is to do a residency I want in a speciality I want in the US, then return to Canada for a fellowship...

But if u ask me, I'd like to do it all in Canada, and settle down there. But that just won't be possible, and the new rules won't change much.

I'll end up spending years, and trucks of money to only discover that landing on a Urology/Surgical residency in Ontario is just not possible.

Nonetheless, I also plan to take the MCCEE's in parallel with the USMLE Step 2 (same studying topics).... Maybe the new rules DO change these odds of an IMG getting a surgical residency in Canada

Hoping for the best....

Take care'all.

 

[JBA]

I'd say these changes they are talking about are going to make little difference to IMG's and if anything may make it harder for us. The one group that will benefit are the very qualified IMG's that normally would not have the chance to apply to competitive specialities. Otherwise don't expect any big difference for the chances of IMG's in Canada, regardless of specialty.
What I'm most interested to see is what will happen to the dedicated IMG spots that are currently available? Are these going to be added to the first round so that the Canadian grads get a chance at them too? If it's an open first round seems like that's the way things would have to be done. From that it seems like the second round will be the new IMG program with Family Medicine and Anatomical Pathology as our choices. The US is beginning to look better and better for IMG's and Canadian grads alike. Another ridiculous decision made by the geniuses that run healthcare in Canada.

 

[Knight_MD]

The US is beginning to look better and better for IMG's and Canadian grads alike. Another ridiculous decision made by the geniuses that run healthcare in Canada.

That's so true, but also, this decision had to be made. Before it, Canada was just one big time and money sucking agency for IMGs. Giving false hopes for impossible residencies and charging a lot of money for it. Now, it's shaping into a more 'fair' system.

If this decision makes the US better for Canadian grads, well it's simply because the US health education system is much better. Before and after this decision.

It's also related to the fact that simply, the US has a lot more people and hence hospitals, universities. i.e. Far more residencies.

If Canada had these many residencies, I doubt anyone wud consider the US.

But nonetheless, its a decision that had to be done a long time ago, but still with little significance.

 

[Dewberry]

Hey Guys, I'm hoping to take advantage of this 'IMGs in the 1st Round' rule that might be coming in.

I'm from Vancouver but (fingers crossed) should graduate from a UK med school on Friday. I've done the Evaluating Exam which means I'm allowed to register for matching but I haven't seen the application package, I don't know what kind of things are they looking for. (If anyone from the UK who's seen the F1 form knows, is it similar?)

Should I sit the Qualifying Exam Part 1 this fall (even if I won't have time to really study for it) or is it better to wait until the May sitting when I've got more time but the matching process is over for 2007? Do they look at exam ranking or just that fact that you've passed it?

Clearly, I'm trying to get home as soon as possible but i don't want to end up in Backwater, Nunavut for three years. I'm pretty clueless when it comes to the Canadian system and would really appreciate some opinions.

Cheers,

D

 

[Knight_MD]

Anyone know anything about this whole "Have to stay 1 year in Ontario before taking the MCCEE" rule?

I read it on this dreadful site:
http://usmile.us/openletter.htm

and I quote:

Basically, after getting your M.D. from a foreign medical school you would have to:

1)Go and live in Ontario for one year (absolute MUST requirement for everyone, I called and asked)
2) Pass the MCCEE
.......

Is that deal still on? Plz someone enlight me.

 

[superstarmd]

Can someone PLEASE say where/why/how these rumours started, and what exactly these new CaRMS rules for IMGs are going to be????

This article provides a little more insight.

http://www.medicalpost.com/news/article.jsp?content=20060601_155255_4964

 

[j802002]

Straight from IMG Ontario's Website -

23-Jun-2006
NEW DIRECTIONS FOR IMG-ONTARIO
Effective for the 2006/07 application cycle, IMG-Ontario's mandate is changing. IMG-Ontario will now be an assessment centre providing assessment services to candidates for 15 medical specialties (Family Medicine and 14 specialties). IMG-Ontario will no longer be involved in the selection or placement of candidates at the Ontario medical schools. This responsibility has been devolved to the individual residency programs located at the medical schools in the province. Applicants applying for PGY1 assessment who subsequently wish to apply for a residency position in the province of Ontario or elsewhere in Canada will do so by participating in a national match which will occur in March 2007. In Ontario that process will have sequestered positions for international medical graduates.Applicants applying for PGY2 assessment and/or Practice Ready Assessment (PRA) may then apply for positions directly to residency programs at the Ontario medical schools. Although assessment through IMG-Ontario will no longer be mandatory, program directors may give preference to candidates who have been assessed through IMG-Ontario.

This was posted June 23rd.

 

[avenirv]

in US the usmle 1 exam provides a quantitative measure of the candidates for the residency program directors. this is together with the appreciation letters submitted by the MDs with whom the applicant did some electives (so this involves a personal work relationship).
what is the procedure followed in Canada ? is there anything else than electives' MDs appreciation letters ?
so, i am an IMG; i come to Canada and say "i did 10 years of medical practice in X country". is this all ? based on this are you accepted for a residency ? do you need to pass some examinations ?
how the selection works in Canada ? there is no USMLE, so ?

 

[Kakoshi]

in US the usmle 1 exam provides a quantitative measure of the candidates for the residency program directors. this is together with the appreciation letters submitted by the MDs with whom the applicant did some electives (so this involves a personal work relationship).
what is the procedure followed in Canada ? is there anything else than electives' MDs appreciation letters ?
so, i am an IMG; i come to Canada and say "i did 10 years of medical practice in X country". is this all ? based on this are you accepted for a residency ? do you need to pass some examinations ?
how the selection works in Canada ? there is no USMLE, so ?

Hi,
To answer your question you're right there is no USMLE but all IMG's have to write the MCEEQ (I think that's how you say it). Canadian med grads don't have to write that. The MCEEQ has a mark attached to it as well. So we have an idea how smart an IMG is. Also when we interviewed foreign sponsored trainees (trainees sponsored by their government to do training in Canada) we also gave them some clinical questions OSCE style to answer in their interviews to assess their English skills in a crude fashion but also to see how their clinical practice compares with ours.
As for Canadian grads we don't really have marks to say how smart one grad is compared to another. We sorta assume they're all similar unless one's been winning tons of prizes. Most Canadian medical schools don't give out any marks so it's very hard to compare.

 

[avenirv]

Hi,
To answer your question you're right there is no USMLE but all IMG's have to write the MCEEQ (I think that's how you say it). Canadian med grads don't have to write that. The MCEEQ has a mark attached to it as well. So we have an idea how smart an IMG is. Also when we interviewed foreign sponsored trainees (trainees sponsored by their government to do training in Canada) we also gave them some clinical questions OSCE style to answer in their interviews to assess their English skills in a crude fashion but also to see how their clinical practice compares with ours.
As for Canadian grads we don't really have marks to say how smart one grad is compared to another. We sorta assume they're all similar unless one's been winning tons of prizes. Most Canadian medical schools don't give out any marks so it's very hard to compare.

1. the foreign sponsored trainees do not take seats from the match. they have completely different seats; thei goverments pay very dear for supplementary seats for their guys. the talk is NOT about these IMGs.

2. still nobody didn't tell me what are the criteria based on which candidates are selected by the PD. i'll tell you then: the direct professional relationship the candidates developed with their MD during rotations and electives. so, will IMGs be able to do electives and/or rotations ?

3. so, the appreciation/comparision criteria are different but still the IMG are competing heads on with canadian graduates ?
it is a principle (ethical or scientifical) that when you compare 2 entities you use the same units of measure. you do not say "the entity X is blue and entity Y is 20 pounds, so Y is better than X".
and you people still think it is fair for everybody to have ONE match for everybody ?
this new system will complicate everything more than is now and you will see then what a law suit is.

i really do not understand people talking without any knowledge about what they talk about or without a little thinking.

 

[Kakoshi]

1. the foreign sponsored trainees do not take seats from the match. they have completely different seats; thei goverments pay very dear for supplementary seats for their guys. the talk is NOT about these IMGs.

2. still nobody didn't tell me what are the criteria based on which candidates are selected by the PD. i'll tell you then: the direct professional relationship the candidates developed with their MD during rotations and electives. so, will IMGs be able to do electives and/or rotations ?

3. so, the appreciation/comparision criteria are different but still the IMG are competing heads on with canadian graduates ?
it is a principle (ethical or scientifical) that when you compare 2 entities you use the same units of measure. you do not say "the entity X is blue and entity Y is 20 pounds, so Y is better than X".
and you people still think it is fair for everybody to have ONE match for everybody ?
this new system will complicate everything more than is now and you will see then what a law suit is.

i really do not understand people talking without any knowledge about what they talk about or without a little thinking.

1. Sorry I should have been a bit more clear. The only reason I brought up foreign sponsored grads is that is how we deal with IMG's or people whose credentials and reference letters are more difficult to assess. My PD will probably be doing that for any IMG's applying. I know some internal medicine programs do take IMG's and that is what they do if the IMG has never worked in Canada.

2. When I've done interviews for my program, we'd select candidates based on their interviews and reference letters and resume.

 

[shetland]

2. When I've done interviews for my program, we'd select candidates based on their interviews and reference letters and resume.

Hey Kakoshi,

What about the selection for Cdn med graduates?

Cheers

 

[Kakoshi]

Hey Kakoshi,

What about the selection for Cdn med graduates?

Cheers

Same thing. But the above poster is right in that they were in separate pools.

 

[Knight_MD]

People is anything about these new IMG rules confirmed yet? Or are we still in seperate pools?

Also, do u need to stay in Canada for 12 months before taking the MCCEE?

 

[OneOfShempsKids]

IMGs are?

 

[pattycanuck]

People is anything about these new IMG rules confirmed yet? Or are we still in seperate pools?

Also, do u need to stay in Canada for 12 months before taking the MCCEE?

From what I heard (and read in the Winnipeg Free Press), Manitoba is at least one of the provinces that is WIDE OPEN for IMGs to apply to the first round - this means that the programs at the UofM can offer all of its spots to IMGs ... but the chances of that happening go beyond when pigs fly. Unsure of the others yet. Otherwise as stated from friends of mine that I know via IMG-Ontario (actual admin), there are slots in the first and second rounds that are RESERVED for IMGs; in Ontario and even if matched in the first round, they'll still have to do the PRP/AVP period.

The EE also can be written all over the world (well in some places - check www.mcc.ca) at certain times of the year. Traditionally, this takes place during a 2-3 week period biannually in November and May. Only the QE1 and 2 have to be written nationally.

Hope this helps.

 

[Knight_MD]

Otherwise as stated from friends of mine that I know via IMG-Ontario (actual admin), there are slots in the first and second rounds that are RESERVED for IMGs; in Ontario and even if matched in the first round, they'll still have to do the PRP/AVP period.

Thanks a lot pattycanuck

But what's the PRP/AVP period? (Note I am a Canadian, but studying abroad as an IMG)

And about these Ontario slots reserved for IMGs in first round, do they include surgical residencies? Or are they just the Family Medicine and IM slots nobody would want?

 

[pattycanuck]

Thanks a lot pattycanuck

But what's the PRP/AVP period? (Note I am a Canadian, but studying abroad as an IMG)

And about these Ontario slots reserved for IMGs in first round, do they include surgical residencies? Or are they just the Family Medicine and IM slots nobody would want?

PRP - pre-residency period
7-8 X2 weeks (lectures in Toronto then another period of being a CC3/4 in specialties at your base university) of learning how to practice patient-centred interviewing (if you've come from a commonwealth-type system, you should have no problem); apparently this is the Canadian standard.

AVP- assessment verification period
8-12 week period of being observed. You have full resident abilities and responsibilities, but are "supervised". You have an evaluation at least at week 2 and at the end. BTW, with IMG-Ontario and these programs, the chances of you gettting turfed from the residency position are pretty slim due to the money and time invested in you ($$$$$ and time). You'll really have to screw up big time!!

First round Ontario IMG slots - all specialties.

 

[Knight_MD]

That's absolutely great. I'll be taking the MCCEE after the USMLE step2... I hear it's the same studying, but an easier exam.

No word on the 12-month obligatory stay in Ontario before taking an exam?
Read it on this site (generally bashing Canada): http://www.usmile.us/openletter.htm

 

[pattycanuck]

That's absolutely great. I'll be taking the MCCEE after the USMLE step2... I hear it's the same studying, but an easier exam.

No word on the 12-month obligatory stay in Ontario before taking an exam?
Read it on this site (generally bashing Canada): http://www.usmile.us/openletter.htm

Who mentioned anything about the EE needing Canadian residency status?

To put this to rest, my wife who is Irish wrote the EE AND QE1 as an Irish citizen in London, UK.

This was BEFORE she attained her Canadian permanent residency status. She only visited Canada 5 times over the past 2 years for about a total of 4 weeks duration.

She has had her Canadian permanent residency status for only a few months and she also has her Family Medicine residency slot along side yours truly. I think that this fact alone would make a load of IMGs here in Canada who have been here for years trying to get into the system and working in "different" jobs than they are used to ... a little P.O'ed !

 

[Knight_MD]

Thanks and kudos to both of you (Someone has powerful connections )

Many of my friends will be glad to know about the not-needing 1-year-residency notion.
This http://www.usmile.us/openletter.htm does have a lot of nonsense.

 

[pattycanuck]

Thanks and kudos to both of you (Someone has powerful connections )

Many of my friends will be glad to know about the not-needing 1-year-residency notion.
This http://www.usmile.us/openletter.htm does have a lot of nonsense.

No, not connections ... just right timing I waited to apply to CaRMS myself once my wife got her Canadian permanent residency status - a few years after graduation.

Note that the site was written way before all of the changes to entry to Canada for docs happened.

 

[Psoriatic]

First round Ontario IMG slots - all specialties.

Where did you get this info from? I've been trying to find a list of specialties in the IMG pool for a while now and can't get it anywhere. The reason I ask is because I'm interested in a relatively small specialty.

Thanks.

 

[pattycanuck]

Where did you get this info from? I've been trying to find a list of specialties in the IMG pool for a while now and can't get it anywhere. The reason I ask is because I'm interested in a relatively small specialty.

Thanks.

I just checked to make sure (above making sure already) - our source at IMG-Ontario confirmed the following via the Ontario Ministry of Health:

"at this point in time, it is unsure exactly how many spots will be paralleled with the Canadian spots in the first round and (to my point for clarification), the number of specialties expected to be put in is all (bar the ones that already don't participate in CaRMS); this is however not confirmed at this point in time likewise with the number of spots"

So I can only admit that what I said is for the most part right.

FYI: As per the page on the CaRMS website - http://carms.ca/jsp/main.jsp?path=../Provincial, note that the matches in Manitoba and Quebec are competitive - possible free for all for IMGs "can" play out - all other provinces have 1st round IMG selected spots...


Eligibility in the First Iteration for International Medical Graduates by Province

Province IMG participating in 1st iteration / Positions Return of Service / Type of Match / Obligations for IMG

Newfoundland / Yes /Parallel /Yes
Nova Scotia / Yes /Parallel /Yes
Quebec /Yes* /Competitive /No
Ontario / Yes /Parallel /Yes
Manitoba / Yes /Competitive /No
Saskatchewan /No /- /-
Alberta / No / - / -
British Columbia /Yes /Parallel / Yes

*must be pre-approved by le Collège des médecins du Québec

 

[erichaj]

This may be a bit off topic and to be honest I've not done a search, but
If you went to an offshore medical school, are a US citizen and did you residency in the United states and are board certified in the US,

Can you work as a physician or open a practice in Canada without doing another residency?

 

[Who M.D.]

It would depend on the residency, but yes. In some cases, U.S. residencies aren't considered fully equivalent to the U.S. residency (usually where the U.S. residency is less than 5 years long), but you usually don't need to do the whole residency in Canada to become eligible for licensure—say if you did a four year residency in the U.S. (I think internal medicine is 4 years), if you then came to Canada, you'd have to do one additional year of post-grad training to become eligible for licensure in internal medicine in Canada.

There might be a few other hoops to jump through to get licensure, but for the most part, it would be doable without doing another whole residency in Canada.

 

[prominence]

This may be a bit off topic and to be honest I've not done a search, but
If you went to an offshore medical school, are a US citizen and did you residency in the United states and are board certified in the US,

Can you work as a physician or open a practice in Canada without doing another residency?

bump. i would be interested in the answer to this question as well.

 

[abc_123_kes]

what in the world is IMG?? immigrants??

 

[FireMed]

IMG - International Med Graduate