"new grads"

[podwho]

For all you new grads (last 3-5 yrs) who join private practices, how did it turn out? Was it short term gig? Did you settle for a bad contract? Are you a partner now? Did you relocate? Hows the current market now that COVID is largely passed. Did you start a practice instead? Are you happy? I think this group of people is the best representation of what direction podiatry is going so im curious.

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[air bud]

For all you new grads (last 3-5 yrs) who join private practices, how did it turn out? Was it short term gig? Did you settle for a bad contract? Are you a partner now? Did you relocate? Hows the current market now that COVID is largely passed. Did you start a practice instead? Are you happy? I think this group of people is the best representation of what direction podiatry is going so im curious.

Every person I know that went into private practice for someone else is out. Most went out on their own. Nobody joined existing group with a buy in. Few joined hospital but required relocation. Have friends who have gone big and bough out people/building etc....others who have gone small with 20 to 30k cash /credit card no banks.

 

[Feli]

Every person I know that went into private practice for someone else is out. Most went out on their own. Nobody joined existing group with a buy in. Few joined hospital but required relocation. Have friends who have gone big and bough out people/building etc....others who have gone small with 20 to 30k cash /credit card no banks.

Same exp...

Less than 10 pct of anybody I know is still at first job - of any type, at least not in same form (changed from hospital FTE to PP solo or Ortho group within same system, PP assoc to partner, PP assoc to solo nearby, etc). Hospital FTE is most likely job type to stick awhile but also most likely to plateau on income or cause burnout. A few ppl I stay in touch with did their own office right from residency graduation with own $ or family help... and varied degrees of success.

PP jobs are great to learn coding, making $, running office, supplies needed, efficiency, how "real world" podiatry works, etc. Residency programs where you learn that stuff well are exceedingly rare and often way too light on surgery as a result. You also won't learn it at most hospital jobs, esp not govt. MSG can be hit or miss, but best bet is Pod or MSG or Ortho groups with mentor(s).

However, once you learn the prac mgmt stuff and get efficient and start to produce well in PP of any type (or RVU at hospital jobs), it's pretty easy to start counting other ppl's money and forget you make more than most DPMs (if you're in a group/job that pays fair... which should always be the goal). One has to remember that even if you produce 700k or 800 or 900 collections, you might not make over 300/yr if there are plenty of other ppl willing to do the work for 250k/yr... at least for awhile. The owner/hospital would be off their rocker to do that. It's all supply/demand.

Out of residency, I did Pod PP low pay + great mentor > Pod PP better pay + ok mentor > startup within MSG > govt hosp > large Pod PP. All of my Pod PP were high volume, high overhead types. I would have liked to start my own, but that ship probably sailed... I'm doing fine on $ and won't be doing this forever. If something weird happened, I'd probably just let a new hospital or MSG or Pod PP take the overhead and risk and they can build my volume fast at this juncture. Starting a PP from scratch usually takes at least 5-10+ years to really start bearing good fruit in terms of enjoyable income and hours.

 

[dtrack22]

I only have one classmate that I know of who is at the same PP job that they took out of residency. I’m sure there are a few more but I can’t think of any. Personally I was in two different podiatry groups (got ripped off both times) before doing some locums work and having my current gig.

Feli is right in that even most of my MSG/Ortho/Hospital employed friends also have changed jobs, but they went from getting paid hundreds of thousands of dollars per year to still getting paid hundreds of thousands of dollars per year. The biggest issue with bouncing from Podiatry group to podiatry group is that you may have only ever been paid $150-160k (and that has to be on the high end), with most being more like $100-120k. So if you’re going to change jobs regardless, might as well spend a few years getting paid closer to what you are worth. Unless your goal has always been to open your own practice, then I think the podiatry practice associate job has some value above the actual wage. Most of my friends who have been in employed positions wouldn’t have the first clue on how to credential, run a practice, bill/code, etc.

 

[newfeet]

Every person I know that went into private practice for someone else is out. Most went out on their own. Nobody joined existing group with a buy in. Few joined hospital but required relocation. Have friends who have gone big and bough out people/building etc....others who have gone small with 20 to 30k cash /credit card no banks.

Same. They either started their own practice or went into a hospital group.

I can’t judge I’m on my 3 hospital jobs in 8 years. Hopefully this is my last change.

 

[Pronation]

First job was private practice. Hot garbage, left after 1 year.

 

[CutsWithFury]

If these kind of threads existed when I was applying to podiatry school I would have never gone through with it.

 

[HardRoadPaved]

If these kind of threads existed when I was applying to podiatry school I would have never gone through with it.

I look back and was so optimistic with APMA vision 2020!

 

[CutsWithFury]

I look back and was so optimistic with APMA vision 2020!

Totally forgot about vision 2020 when we were supposed to be sitting for the USMLE by 2020. Great job podiatry.

Instead we have a bunch of fellowship trained foot and ankle surgeons but really podiatrists who are not really foot and ankle surgeons with inferiority complexes and suffer from dissociative identity disorder.

 

[heybrother]

If they only matriculate 300 students next year vision 2025 is going to be "Still Exist".

 

[newfeet]

I look back and was so optimistic with APMA vision 2020!

Looking back I realize I was being conned.

 

[Feeter]

4 years out. First job was hospital RVU based. Made around $275k a year. Changed recently to be a program director at another hospital as it was a pay bumb and make well over 300k.

Had several pp contracts but they were all garbage compared to what I make now.

One friend quit podiatry and went into finance. One friend just left a pp group and bought a practice. Another friend left op and joined VA. Had another friend who moved out of state to join a hospital.

I don't have anyone in my circle that stayed in pp job after 3 years as they had better offers elsewhere.

 

[malleolusman]

First job out of residency was a hospital based gig. They just acquired a pod group. Partners in the group definitely did not want me doing RRA procedures etc, did not want call. They wanted to coast. Any procedures I did there to get my cases for boards felt like a huge uphill fight. Made great bank and burned out in a spectacular fashion year 3-4. Felt I was going the Lords work for neglected diabetic and PVD patients who would get bounced around in the healthcare system.

Found a better work life balance by year 5, then moved to another state to be closer to fam during pandemic.

Got royally screwed by a MSG group. I practice in a major metro area where competition is high. Now, doing private practice; but exploring things like real estate. Loans paid.
—

All of us are 7 years out.

Friends:

One left PP, was working with an ortho group w existing DPM, existing DPM felt threatened and treated this dude like garbage. He left and now is doing hospital based gig. Loans paid.

One got shafted twice by big group DPM practices - funny accounting practices. Now , got a job with a hospital, has been there for 2-3 years. Staying put. Loans almost paid.

Another still in private practice as an associate. Hates every minute of it. Huge loan burden still. He’s looking for a job elsewhere.

Another in major metro area, works as an associate with 3 other pods. Buy in offered was…Ridiculous. Haven’t talked to him in awhile so don’t know if he took it. He’s stayed out cause of family in area. Loans very much.

One guy worked as an associate, then moved states and started his own gig. Also hates practice in general given all the extra crap (think laser for nail fungus) you have to do just to make 150-160K. Practices in a major metro area.

One gal practices in major metro, worked as an associate for 1 Yr, left and started her own private practice. Worked super hard to make bank- thinking about expanding or selling to hospital and becoming employee.

—
One issue as I see it is the need for podiatrists to have to do things that are slimy to make a living.

If you think selling custom orthotics for 600 dollars is right or ethical and call yourself a physician - it’s time to re evaluate yourself. Maybe open up a GoodFeet. I get the need to make money etc , but podiatry in general has a lot of things like this. The PM news circuit is slimy, folks who talk it up without giving real attention to the realities practitioners face in training (high variability in training) and what happens once they have graduated (God awful job market). I was lucky with my first job, but that’s just what it was - luck. It has become abundantly clear since now I am forced to do private practice.

Rough out there, but a sparkling ray of hope is decreased enrollments. If this thread had been around previously, I would have never applied. I’ve made good money in this profession, but I generally dislike the leadership and movers and shakers of this profession.

 

[Pronation]

First job out of residency was a hospital based gig. They just acquired a pod group. Partners in the group definitely did not want me doing RRA procedures etc, did not want call. They wanted to coast. Any procedures I did there to get my cases for boards felt like a huge uphill fight. Made great bank and burned out in a spectacular fashion year 3-4. Felt I was going the Lords work for neglected diabetic and PVD patients who would get bounced around in the healthcare system.

Found a better work life balance by year 5, then moved to another state to be closer to fam during pandemic.

Got royally screwed by a MSG group. I practice in a major metro area where competition is high. Now, doing private practice; but exploring things like real estate. Loans paid.
—

All of us are 7 years out.

Friends:

One left PP, was working with an ortho group w existing DPM, existing DPM felt threatened and treated this dude like garbage. He left and now is doing hospital based gig. Loans paid.

One got shafted twice by big group DPM practices - funny accounting practices. Now , got a job with a hospital, has been there for 2-3 years. Staying put. Loans almost paid.

Another still in private practice as an associate. Hates every minute of it. Huge loan burden still. He’s looking for a job elsewhere.

Another in major metro area, works as an associate with 3 other pods. Buy in offered was…Ridiculous. Haven’t talked to him in awhile so don’t know if he took it. He’s stayed out cause of family in area. Loans very much.

One guy worked as an associate, then moved states and started his own gig. Also hates practice in general given all the extra crap (think laser for nail fungus) you have to do just to make 150-160K. Practices in a major metro area.

One gal practices in major metro, worked as an associate for 1 Yr, left and started her own private practice. Worked super hard to make bank- thinking about expanding or selling to hospital and becoming employee.

—
One issue as I see it is the need for podiatrists to have to do things that are slimy to make a living.

If you think selling custom orthotics for 600 dollars is right or ethical and call yourself a physician - it’s time to re evaluate yourself. Maybe open up a GoodFeet. I get the need to make money etc , but podiatry in general has a lot of things like this. The PM news circuit is slimy, folks who talk it up without giving real attention to the realities practitioners face in training (high variability in training) and what happens once they have graduated (God awful job market). I was lucky with my first job, but that’s just what it was - luck. It has become abundantly clear since now I am forced to do private practice.

Rough out there, but a sparkling ray of hope is decreased enrollments. If this thread had been around previously, I would have never applied. I’ve made good money in this profession, but I generally dislike the leadership and movers and shakers of this profession.

Care to share what went down with the MSG job? Just curious

 

[malleolusman]

Care to share what went down with the MSG job? Just curious

Sure, I was brought on as a 1099, that way I could run things through my LLC. Their 150 doc group group already had a ton of DPMs, 2 of them being partners already, so it seemed legit. The salary offer from them being 120K. From a MSG. I was told 1099 would be better since I stand to make more money etc. All the busy docs do this.

My overheads were through the roof sky high, and I was supposed to get paid quarterly. Income minus overhead expenses/MSG fee 15 percent. Think staffing my office w/ 2 MAs while I am seeing 6 patients for the day.

Picture existing partners at group seeing 50-60 patients a day, while I was seeing 10-12 tops. The other DPMs (not partners) were producing but not taking home what they should have been. Their answer to this was - we have a way we calculate how much overhead everyone pays, so it will be fair. Live and learn.

 

[Pronation]

Sure, I was brought on as a 1099, that way I could run things through my LLC. Their 150 doc group group already had a ton of DPMs, 2 of them being partners already, so it seemed legit. The salary offer from them being 120K. From a MSG. I was told 1099 would be better since I stand to make more money etc. All the busy docs do this.

My overheads were through the roof sky high, and I was supposed to get paid quarterly. Income minus overhead expenses/MSG fee 15 percent. Think staffing my office w/ 2 MAs while I am seeing 6 patients for the day.

Picture existing partners at group seeing 50-60 patients a day, while I was seeing 10-12 tops. The other DPMs (not partners) were producing but not taking home what they should have been. Their answer to this was - we have a way we calculate how much overhead everyone pays, so it will be fair. Live and learn.

Interesting experience, thanks for sharing. I would say the main red flags were them not offering something within the MGMA range (200+) and screwing you out of benefits (1099). Surprised to see this kind of f-ery going on in an MSG.

 

[heybrother]

I'm now a co-owner at my original practice. I signed on for a terrible original offer. I found myself thinking of Podiatry Bytes and thinking "crap - its real!". I thought I had negotiated it up, but when I went for the contract signing meeting other things that were my reason for signing weren't in the contract and I ultimately fought to get those things in. My contract contained a clause essentially allowing overhead based pay at a certain point which of course occurred during Covid. I received a bizarre amount of grief from a retiring owner for not operating enough even though it took them 6 months to get me privileged.

I've been saving this story for a long time so if you have food or water in your mouth - swallow it now. When I attempted to add over the counter orthotics to the practice the owner's MOM told me she'd have to sign off on that and investigate to make sure they were high enough quality.

I did ultimately add orthotics and my partner now sells more of them than I do. Unfortunately, he sells everyone an accomodative orthotic which really confuses me because he sells classic functional orthotics if they upgrade to custom.

The whole associate experience is so awful for a lot of people that its weird to feel "grateful" that my health insurance and malpractice were paid for by the practice. Those sort of things are obviously inherently practice expenses. Got enough CME money to go to ACFAS year one. The practice allowed me to add my wife/children onto the insurance and I pay about $1K a month for them. Future associates really need to keep that in mind. A sub-$100 base and family insurance will eat your paycheck. For my first 2 years they paid me either my base or 30% which was slightly more favorable than counting out dollars to see exactly where I should be at based on collections. I cringe everytime someone has a payment "structure".

I'm finally at the level of patients I should be at - it took far too long to get here though obviously Covid didn't help. My partner used to have episodes when I'd outcollect him and demand that more patients be placed on his schedule. He's since mellowed dramatically and since I've taken over everything related to billing and contracts and simply wants to see a reasonable number of patients and go home.

I received a few bonuses that were actual bonuses ie. the contract did not in any way dictate them and it likely put me in the 36-38% level of pay.

One of the things I always laugh about is that until recently I've never truly been super busy. So I never experienced that thing other people go through where someone is making hundreds of thousands of dollars off me. Assuredly they made money, but not like the stories I hear. And I was always allowed to see my billing so I know what came in. I really think they shouldn't have hired me.

I bought in at 2.5 years. I was fortunate to have the money. There's all manner of flaws associated with my practice but I don't want to work for a hospital and I like my town and location a lot. I have zero interest in fighting it out in a big metro. One of the big draws for me is that my town has the best population to podiatrist ratio I'd ever seen anywhere + a Costco. I spent the year before my buy in telling my partner about every negative insurance contract CMS thing etc that happened to us and when he asked me to buy in he basically told me he thought the profession was going to hell and that the clinic wouldn't be worth anything in a few years. My buy-in was sub-$100 for 50%. I owe the other half in some version of 5-10 years and we've already agreed there's no change in value. The amount is fixed and not based on collections. Obviously that's more than someone starting a clinic for $30K but I'm reasonable satisfied how its turning out. I've easily made back my buy in money without any interruption of my practice and won't have any disruption of my surgical privileges or path to board certification.

I think I'm likely to hit $200K this year.

I really can't take credit for a lot of things that have happened in my life. The simple truth is I know I was born on 3rd base in a lot of ways. My wife's work, money, etc have carried me a long ways. I graduated with like $110K in debt. If I had student debt like most people have - this would never have worked. We had money saved for a house from frugal living before school and frankly the deaths of close family members. The house has now exploded in value - I would go so far as it to say I wouldn't be able to afford it if I bought it today. Can't say it enough. My wife greased the wheels for my success.

So if someone said to me - you're doing fine. You're not hospital employed but your an owner at year 3 - yeah. True... but I couldn't have gotten here on my own. And I went through a bunch of just the classic stupid unnecessary stuff. There are much faster more reliable paths to $200K.

During the pandemic some combination of dtrack/airbud said - why are you still at your stupid practice, you don't have a non-compete. I still think back on that a lot. That was probably as good a time as any to leave but I think my course has somewhat finally righted itself.

Should have sat for foot certification this year but had a bunch of stupid stuff happen and never got to study. Will definitely do that next year and am I think I'll have rearfoot cases at the end of next month.

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As far as my classmates. I'll throw a different thing out. Some of my female classmates appear to be crushing it (hospital, ortho employed, rearfoot certified etc). Seems like several are already out of the game and we are only 3 years out. I can immediately think of - one that is done (competence issues), one that wants out, one that just does nursing homes, and another that doesn't appear to be practicing/can't find any mention online but has several kids. EDIT: Crap - I hit submit before tying that off. Its hard to be a lady in this profession is where I was going to go with that. I feel like that's somewhat heavy/sad attrition for such a short time. My class was like 50 people so 1 more and that would be 10% loss.

 

[deleted1138023]

@heybrother with one of the saddest posts I’ve ever read on this forum

 

[PatchAdamsFan]

Interesting experience, thanks for sharing. I would say the main red flags were them not offering something within the MGMA range (200+) and screwing you out of benefits (1099). Surprised to see this kind of f-ery going on in an MSG.

I actually found this to be very common as malleolusman described. There are tons of these types of MSG's around, including my former employer, which are really just physician owned small-to-medium-to-large sized private practices - variable base and typical eat what you kill 40-50% of collections model. They don't really follow MGMA data.

Even within MSG and Ortho groups there are huge variations in practice. Some have ASC ownership, many don't. Some have a partner track and shares distribution, some don't. Some have problems with patient volume (too high, too low), poor MA workflow, no downstream revenue, etc etc. This list can be many pages long. Many of my colleagues who went from MSG/Ortho to PP worked for these types of groups. I'm only a few years out myself, but I try to tell my program's graduating residents (and I guess here now) not to put their blinders on when they see the words "MSG/Ortho/Hospital". Need to look past the perfect offer and spot the red flags and potential issues - as I heard someone say, you need to plan for the divorce when reading the contract. Burnout is real, and whatever your practice model is, there will always be something that sucks or needs improvement. I think the best way to combat it is knowing initially what you want in a practice, and strive for a position where all the "positives" outweigh the crap.

That said, still beats being a podiatry associate 95% of the time.

 

[Feli]

Think of it as a multiple choice question:

What do you want:
A) nice stuff (home furnish, toys, clothes, etc)
B) nice cars
C) nice house
D) travel often or expensive
E) high cost of living area (metro, beach, etc... and you still have to pick nice house as another choice, not automatic with HCOL area)
F) kids (pick this twice if many kids or high standard of living/school for them)
G) partner stays home with kids and doesn't work awhile/ever
H) high lifestyle (dining, shows, dating, etc)
I) early retirement vs avg
J) weekends off

...So, if you're a DPM with an average pay job, pick 3.
If you have a lower than avg job, maybe pick only 2.
If you have a higher than avg job, pick 4 or even 5 (but almost surely lose J at that point).
If you are single or have a financially competent partner, stay at that number.
If you have a partner who earns good money, pick another 1 or 2.
If you have a low earner partner whose standard you boost, subtract 1 choice.

Eg: I have an average pay job and (J) comes with that, so I get 3 choices + high earning partner. I pick choices A, H, I... partner adds C, D, helps with I.

It should also quickly become obvious you can't have your partner stay at home, have 3 kids in private school, travel internationally, live in a castle and drive his-and-her BMWs on standard DPM associate salary. That fantasy will crash and burn.

I think the expectations versus reality applies as much for podiatry as any other profession. Sure, we are "doctors" and it's a doctorate degree, but the mean/median earning power is not in line with MDs. Still, many MDs also face these same choices above... perhaps they just get same or one or two or three more depending on their specialty and loan burden. Too many people doing MD or DO or DPM or others think they will finish residency and be able to pick "ALL OF THE ABOVE," but that's just not how it is.

We have to remember that there are millions of teachers, tradesmen, etc etc who also got up early to go to work today... and would be happy to pick even one or two of those things. Sure, we went to school longer, but it's not as if they weren't working those years while we were partying after midterm exams on borrowed money. The things that are awesome and free - for anyone - are personal health/fitness and personal relationships, though. Those enrich my life more than anything costly, and anyone can have those (unless maybe they're too tired or burnt out chasing $$$).

And yeah, as malleolusman said, I could bump my income in PP by maybe 20, 30, even 50% if I wanted to do a bunch of questionable path, DME, etc. I could also probably do the same income bump by looking for a hospital gig where I'm back to to being on call roughly every third weekend and evening, but you also want to feel good about and take care of yourself at the end of the day. There are always choices to be made; nobody has it all - and if they do, they might still not be happy.

 

[PointyNippers]

Just out of residency, joined a solo doc PP in a small fast growing city. His partner retired last year and he's looking to retire soon as well. Offering partnership after 1 year and eventual ownership. Pretty decent contract compared to the standard PP associate contract. Practice is very well established with great volume, and owner wants to transform/modernize the practice by being more surgery focused as well. Not much competition here as well. Liking it so far, and thinking of staying established here long term.

I love the idea of being my own boss, dictating my own hours, and not having some bureaucracy breathe down my back. I can reap the benefits based on how hard I work without having to dole out money to some institution

 

[GreenHousePub]

Totally forgot about vision 2020 when we were supposed to be sitting for the USMLE by 2020. Great job podiatry.

Instead we have a bunch of fellowship trained foot and ankle surgeons but really podiatrists who are not really foot and ankle surgeons with inferiority complexes and suffer from dissociative identity disorder.

Everyone forgot about Vision 2015?

 

[Shiyuan]

Yup, Vision 2015 was when I was a student. That goal post just keeps a’ movin.

 

[Pronation]

Podiatric cataracts caused issues with Vision 2015

 

[619]

Just out of residency, joined a solo doc PP in a small fast growing city. His partner retired last year and he's looking to retire soon as well. Offering partnership after 1 year and eventual ownership. Pretty decent contract compared to the standard PP associate contract. Practice is very well established with great volume, and owner wants to transform/modernize the practice by being more surgery focused as well. Not much competition here as well. Liking it so far, and thinking of staying established here long term.

I love the idea of being my own boss, dictating my own hours, and not having some bureaucracy breathe down my back. I can reap the benefits based on how hard I work without having to dole out money to some institution

This is a very good set-up if everything turns out fine. You joined an already established busy practice with one doctor recently retiring so you start from day one with a busy practice and high patient volume. Your boss is also about to retire soon and hand everything over to you. Hopefully he stays true to his word and not try to sell you the practice for a million bucks (except if you are also buying the office building).

Overall wish you the very best. In your first year, learn as much as you can with billing, coding etc. Educate yourself on insurance lingo such as co-pay, co-insurance, deductibles etc. Ask lots of questions and just don't have the mentality of seeing patients and going home after clinic. If you plan to take over the practice in the near future, everything going on around the practice should interest you and concern you. Decisions being made with staffing, scheduling, insurance, collections, marketing etc should all be a concern to you and you should show interest in it. If in your first year, you only show up to clinic, see patients and go home then your boss will assume you are not ready to take over the practice because no one wants to hand over a business to anyone who does not show interest.

 

[Feli]

...Hopefully he stays true to his word and not try to sell you the practice for a million bucks (except if you are also buying the office building)...

Yep. These things have to be spelled out and signed off on before working one day in the office (partnership price, buy in/out price, timeline, what will happen to outgoing doc... gone immediate, wind down timespan and what their compensation will be once ownership changes, what happens if sale cancels, etc).

It is usually a nightmare later on when the outgoing doc will want more value due to revenue added by the buyer doc. The majority of attorneys I've had plan it out will tell you to do it based on valuation before you join and buy by shares... gradual purchase shift from owner to buyer, then it's buyer owning it. If seller reneges, they must buy all shares back. It's very hard to have a moving price target, transition timespan, etc.

Best approaches to PP that I've found are to know you are an associate/employee and be compensated well for such with no weekends, no admin concern, etc. The other way is to enter with a clear path to defined buy in/out. The signing a contract you are luke warm on and then hoping for raises, buy-in chance, partner offer later based on verbal stick carrots from the PP owner is usually not something that ends well.

 

[wakaflocka88]

I actually found this to be very common as malleolusman described. There are tons of these types of MSG's around, including my former employer, which are really just physician owned small-to-medium-to-large sized private practices - variable base and typical eat what you kill 40-50% of collections model. They don't really follow MGMA data.

Even within MSG and Ortho groups there are huge variations in practice. Some have ASC ownership, many don't. Some have a partner track and shares distribution, some don't. Some have problems with patient volume (too high, too low), poor MA workflow, no downstream revenue, etc etc. This list can be many pages long. Many of my colleagues who went from MSG/Ortho to PP worked for these types of groups. I'm only a few years out myself, but I try to tell my program's graduating residents (and I guess here now) not to put their blinders on when they see the words "MSG/Ortho/Hospital". Need to look past the perfect offer and spot the red flags and potential issues - as I heard someone say, you need to plan for the divorce when reading the contract. Burnout is real, and whatever your practice model is, there will always be something that sucks or needs improvement. I think the best way to combat it is knowing initially what you want in a practice, and strive for a position where all the "positives" outweigh the crap.

That said, still beats being a podiatry associate 95% of the time.

I agree. I started out in a small ortho group fresh from residency and overall I enjoyed it, minus certain cons that I encountered along the way. I had an inkling of some red flags but like you said, it was still better than a garbage PP job. Believe it or not, I had an offer for a scumbag PP group for $85k salary in a large metro city. He generated that offer out of his mind during our follow up interview. Someone eventually took this job not long after I interviewed. Surprised? Again, goes to show how bad this job market is that the majority of new grads (including myself) just doesn’t have much of a choice. It can be appealing to say “I work for an ortho group” but it’s not always as glorious as one may think it is. Pre pods, students, residents will not know what it’s like till they experience it.

But right away I learned to say no and stand firm on certain things - no call, no hospital rounding, no inpatient crap. The group didn’t care since they didn’t take much call either. Good guys and I learned some stuff from them along the way. Granted, I was never really busy enough to make it sustainable and the pay was eat what I kill. It’s easier to add more to the plate down the road, much harder to scale back. I learned from my residency that I never want to work those 200 hour weeks ever again. It’s silly I still have friends and classmates that are so thirsty for trauma they are willing to take call for free. What???? That time can be better spent growing your practice from multiple avenues.

I’ve said it multiple times - if you think you’re going to come out of training day #1 and be slapping on TARs, be the next greatest traumatologist gift in this world or deserve to be paid a handsome salary - good luck. You will need all the luck and more. You are still a podiatrist at the end of the day no matter what you try to call yourself on LinkedIn/FB/IG.

In my graduating residency cohort, they’re all doing very well. One in PP and one in hospital employed position.

Close friends of mine from school - 2 are still in PP and not doing close to what they were trained in (graduated top of the class, top notch programs, good people). A few I keep in touch started their own practice and still trying to build it up in large metro areas with heavy saturation. One friend did a middle tier fellowship and slaving away in PP trying to find another job.

 

[CutsWithFury]

Look guys we made it

Doug Richie on LinkedIn: #podiatry #school #career #physician | 53 comments

Applications to Podiatric Medical Schools in the USA plummeted in 2022 while numbers of allopathic medical school applicants reached an all-time high. What's… | 53 comments on LinkedIn

www.linkedin.com

 

[dtrack22]

Look guys we made it

Doug Richie on LinkedIn: #podiatry #school #career #physician | 53 comments

Applications to Podiatric Medical Schools in the USA plummeted in 2022 while numbers of allopathic medical school applicants reached an all-time high. What's… | 53 comments on LinkedIn

www.linkedin.com

But he only mentioned pre-pod forum stuff. Like how we will never actually take the USMLE. Imagine the collective exploding podiatry heads had he directed people to some of the resident/attending forum threads…

 

[CutsWithFury]

But he only mentioned pre-pod forum stuff. Like how we will never actually take the USMLE. Imagine the collective exploding podiatry heads had he directed people to some of the resident/attending forum threads…

He def left it out because he can’t handle the truth. All the posters on the thread are private practice owners too. This is a simple example of biased point of view.

 

[AttackNME]

I think the lower applicant pool is a good thing, forces the governing bodies, residencies, and podiatry in general to get it together.

 

[call1800doctorb]

I think the lower applicant pool is a good thing, forces the governing bodies, residencies, and podiatry in general to get it together.

100% agree. Podiatry does not deserve another applicant until the profession gets its act together.

 

[Pronation]

He def left it out because he can’t handle the truth. All the posters on the thread are private practice owners too. This is a simple example of biased point of view.

edited my post. This is nothing but a greedy cash grab for easy, cheap, and exploitable associate pod labor.

 

[deleted1138023]

face it. the younger generation is too smart. Gen Z knows a bad ROI when they see one. 7 years of education to make $100k and go $300k in debt? yeah, no thanks.

the real interesting thing is what will the schools do here. lower tuition or jack it up even more? I think we know the answer here.

 

[wakaflocka88]

face it. the younger generation is too smart. Gen Z knows a bad ROI when they see one. 7 years of education to make $100k and go $300k in debt? yeah, no thanks.

the real interesting thing is what will the schools do here. lower tuition or jack it up even more? I think we know the answer here.

Less applicants - less graduating residents - less applicants for ABFAS and ABPM - higher failure rate - cycle repeats. Greed knows no limits. Then again, no one is forcing these students to apply.

 

[deleted1138023]

Less applicants - less graduating residents - less applicants for ABFAS and ABPM - higher failure rate - cycle repeats. Greed knows no limits. Then again, no one is forcing these students to apply.

I think tuition will just keep going up. Western podiatry tuition is now $44,000 per year. doesn't include cost of living. yikes.

 

[CutsWithFury]

I think tuition will just keep going up. Western podiatry tuition is now $44,000 per year. doesn't include cost of living. yikes.

WTF are you serious? 44k per year for podiatry school = REKT for life.

 

[deleted1138023]

WTF are you serious? 44k per year for podiatry school = REKT for life.

well consider cost of living in that area... that's $80k at least.. .. a year.

 

[heybrother]

Sadly, their loan repayment does not cover the cost of a year of tuition at most podiatry schools.

 

[Pronation]

I love that they’re being called out in the LinkedIn comments section. Should link them to this thread…

 

[wakaflocka88]

WTF are you serious? 44k per year for podiatry school = REKT for life.

Had a student tell me last week that he thought after residency, you’re automatically hired to work in the hospital you trained at and the salary will be high enough to easily pay off tuition. Ya, shocker.

I welcome Doug Richie to join this forum and peruse through and see what he still thinks. I understand his logic is he’s still
In the 1940s but present day medicine/podiatry/business is a whole new ballgame that’s ruthless with no pity

 

[air bud]

Had a student tell me last week that he thought after residency, you’re automatically hired to work in the hospital you trained at and the salary will be high enough to easily pay off tuition. Ya, shocker.

I welcome Doug Richie to join this forum and peruse through and see what he still thinks. I understand his logic is he’s still
In the 1940s but present day medicine/podiatry/business is a whole new ballgame that’s ruthless with no pity

Yeah but that brace though....

 

[Pronation]

Yeah but that brace though....

You mean the one that’s just an articulated AFO with a custom molded orthotic that any prosthetist can make? That one?

 

[Boba Foot]

WTF are you serious? 44k per year for podiatry school = REKT for life.

The real joke is that you pay tuition 4th year while you’re doing external rotations, externships, etc. The school actually provides virtually nothing during 4th year and yet you still pay full tuition. It’s a giant scam.

 

[deleted1138023]

You mean the one that’s just an articulated AFO with a custom molded orthotic that any prosthetist can make? That one?

burn.....

 

[newfeet]

The real joke is that you pay tuition 4th year while you’re doing external rotations, externships, etc. The school actually provides virtually nothing during 4th year and yet you still pay full tuition. It’s a giant scam.

That’s true.

 

[dtrack22]

I welcome Doug Richie to join this forum and peruse through and see what he still thinks. I understand his logic is he’s still
In the 1940s but present day medicine/podiatry/business is a whole new ballgame that’s ruthless with no pity

I mean he has no understanding of the reality of Podiatry’s job market. He probably doesn’t even worry or care about insurance contracts, reimbursements, etc. It doesn’t even look like he practices podiatry any more. Why would he? I’m sure the DME $$$ and royalties are worth way more than actually treating foot conditions in a clinic.

He is the least qualified person to be commenting on the state of our profession from a education, Training, and job outlook standpoint. Bring it on Doug.

 

[Prehealth1011]

The real joke is that you pay tuition 4th year while you’re doing external rotations, externships, etc. The school actually provides virtually nothing during 4th year and yet you still pay full tuition. It’s a giant scam.

Sounds like my DO school

 

[wakaflocka88]

I mean he has no understanding of the reality of Podiatry’s job market. He probably doesn’t even worry or care about insurance contracts, reimbursements, etc. It doesn’t even look like he practices podiatry any more. Why would he? I’m sure the DME $$$ and royalties are worth way more than actually treating foot conditions in a clinic.

He is the least qualified person to be commenting on the state of our profession from a education, Training, and job outlook standpoint. Bring it on Doug.

I want to venture as far to say as he’s probably never done a flatfoot recon. I’ve heard a few of his lectures in the past and everything revolves around his brace and PTTD. He sold his practice and I believe one of my former classmates is also working there too. SDN is just an online forum Doug, chill.

 

[CutsWithFury]

I want to venture as far to say as he’s probably never done a flatfoot recon. I’ve heard a few of his lectures in the past and everything revolves around his brace and PTTD. He sold his practice and I believe one of my former classmates is also working there too. SDN is just an online forum Doug, chill.

Kind of like Michael Graham and his arthroereisis implant. It’s falling out favor in USA so he spends a lot of time oversees “educating” doctors in other countries to get them to use his implant.

I really don’t understand how people can’t see through these charades these providers build their whole careers around. Of course they will promote that multiple pathologies can be treated by their brace or implant.

Imagine if this was your life? To become a “physician” salesman and push something you invented. Create educational materials and scheme how your invention cures all foot and ankle complaints. Then just do that on a daily basis. Podiatry is crazy brother.

Bradley Bakotic became a favorite with podiatrists with his scare tactic presentations. I’m not saying he doesn’t know his stuff because he definitely does. He is very smart. But he was an even better salesman because his presentations were full of cases where podiatrists missed a diagnosis and patients ended up dying or suing them. He played with the audiences fears and they ended up utilizing his services without hesitation since majority are private practice and don’t work for hospitals. His relentless promotion of his lab worked and he made millions.