New Carbon Ion phase III RCT

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So tell me doctor, I've read in the internet less than a quarter of patients like me are still alive 2 years after diagnosis. You suggest that I should enter this trial and maybe I'll get the chance to go to Japan. How much better do you think that treatment may be?




I would say the following:

As you know, pancreatic carcinoma is an aggressive form of cancer and it becomes even more difficult to fight when it is unressectable. Although our treatments have advanced in the past several years, none of them are a "slam dunk' and very few people, if any, are ever completely "cured". The scientists who designed this study are excited about this new form of radiation because preliminary testing shows that it may be more effective against aggressive tumors, like yours. However we don't know if this will actually be more helpful for your cancer or others like you, which is why we are doing the study. This new treatment could help people, it could hurt people, or it could have no difference at all. It is important to remember that the numbers you see on the internet or even the outcome of this study will still not tell us anything about the course of your disease (i.e. it may help most people, but not you... or vice versa). What really matters is how you feel about trying and experimental treatment, and how well your tumor responds.

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Ah, I thought this was an adjuvant RT trial, not unresectable. Agree with other posters citing Chris Crane data about dose escalation in the unresectable setting seeing better outcomes. Yes, it is well-selected patients to avoid toxicity, but that gives me a bit more hope. Especially if they treat like LAP-07 and test tumor biology with upfront chemotherapy (ensuring patient doesn't met out early)/
 
Ah, I thought this was an adjuvant RT trial, not unresectable. Agree with other posters citing Chris Crane data about dose escalation in the unresectable setting seeing better outcomes. Yes, it is well-selected patients to avoid toxicity, but that gives me a bit more hope. Especially if they treat like LAP-07 and test tumor biology with upfront chemotherapy (ensuring patient doesn't met out early)/

Of course, this speaks to another issue with the trial design no one has mentioned yet. They are comparing dose-escalated hypofractionated CIT vs conventional photon IMRT. So if its better, is it because of dose escalation or because of the carbon ions? I understand that they designed it this way using SOC as the control arm (comparing CIT to dose-escalated photon RT would be complicated an no matter what dose you pick people would take issue with it) but it is still a complicating factor. Even if they have encouraging results, one will have no sense of how it compares to dose escalated photon radiotherapy for which the data is looking fairly promising.
 
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Did it cost the same? Is the therapeutic benefit going to be the same going from photons to carbon ion vs going from 3D to imrt?

The proton guys still haven't proven protons are superior to photons at this point in places like lung and prostate

As long as we are discussing burden of proof, I don't remember when we as a specialty proved in a randomized trial that IMRT is superior to 3D in places like lung and prostate. We also don't have randomized trials proving SBRT is superior to 2 Gray fractions in stage I lung cancer. Nor did we ever prove in a trial that costlier Linacs are superior to cobalt teletherapy. Those large randomized trials were never done, yet technology advanced anyway, adoption followed, and eventually replaced the old standard of care.

Let's take a page from breast cancer history. Sentinel lymph node surgery displaced routine axillary dissection long before any randomized trials were completed. Why? Not because it was a perfect or mature technology, but because it offered the patient less toxicity in an understandable way.

IMRT moves the dose around in comparison to 3D, but does not actually decrease the total radiation dose to the patient. More X-ray dose is still deposited in transit to the tumor than within the tumor volume itself. Now with protons, we have a technology that can actually reverse that trend, and decrease the integral dose, by nearly half compared to X-rays. Now imagine doing IMRT or VMAT with that beam, one that stops where you tell it to.

With heavier ions like carbon or helium (alpha particles = high LET), we may actually be able to drop integral dose by half again, due to the peak RBE being 2-3x higher for heavy ions (vs 1.1 for protons and 1.0 for X-rays). Half the dose to normal tissue and double the dose to tumor? How is this not of interest to a medical discipline that has always thrived by improving the therapeutic ratio? Now that is painting with biology, not just physical dose.

People complain about cost, but cost is not a static variable. High costs once applied to cell phones, personal computers and airline flights. In 1971, only 15% of the US population had flown but now over 85% have, because costs came down with adoption, even as fuel prices went up. Solar panel prices were $76.00 in 1977 versus $0.25 per watt in 2017. It's now cheaper to build a new solar farm than to run an existing coal plant. Old coal plants are now fired up only for "prescribed burns." Is this a metaphor for our field?

The cost of technology always comes down with time, ingenuity and increased adoption. Already the price of proton and carbon machines are coming down rapidly. We may yet find ourselves living in an era where the price of a new particle center costs less per room than equipping a large hospital with all-new Linacs in separate vaults. If socialized countries like Italy, Japan, Germany, Austria, and China can already afford 10 carbon ion centers between them, why are we the technological laggard? The NIH considers it a matter of national interest, and I think our specialty should too.
 
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My primary problem is the 2:1 randomization. This is less efficient (more patients to show same effect) and is arguably a tacit endorsement of the experimental arm. There are papers from the 1990s that demonstrated how patients interpret unbalanced randomization. Google therapeutic misconception.
 
The same thing is being done on LU002.

Patients want SBRT for their oligomets so it’s nice to be able to say that there is a 2-1 chance but still, also makes it harder to sell equipoise
 
We also don't have randomized trials proving SBRT is superior to 2 Gray fractions in stage I lung cancer.
We do. The CHISEL-trial:
 
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As long as we are discussing burden of proof, I don't remember when we as a specialty proved in a randomized trial that IMRT is superior to 3D in places like lung and prostate. We also don't have randomized trials proving SBRT is superior to 2 Gray fractions in stage I lung cancer. Nor did we ever prove in a trial that costlier Linacs are superior to cobalt teletherapy. Those large randomized trials were never done, yet technology advanced anyway, adoption followed, and eventually replaced the old standard of care.

Parachutes are cheap too. I get it. The problem is, unlike imrt/sbrt, carbon ions aren't cheap. Protons still aren't either. Makes the burden of proof higher when we are talking about finite healthcare spending as a resource.

Protons have been getting in the news the last few years and not necessarily in a good way, as the data for commonly treated sites is still lacking to support it, while the machines continue to be built all around the country.

Choose wisely
 
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As long as we are discussing burden of proof, I don't remember when we as a specialty proved in a randomized trial that IMRT is superior to 3D in places like lung and prostate. We also don't have randomized trials proving SBRT is superior to 2 Gray fractions in stage I lung cancer. Nor did we ever prove in a trial that costlier Linacs are superior to cobalt teletherapy. Those large randomized trials were never done, yet technology advanced anyway, adoption followed, and eventually replaced the old standard of care.

Let's take a page from breast cancer history. Sentinel lymph node surgery displaced routine axillary dissection long before any randomized trials were completed. Why? Not because it was a perfect or mature technology, but because it offered the patient less toxicity in an understandable way.

IMRT moves the dose around in comparison to 3D, but does not actually decrease the total radiation dose to the patient. More X-ray dose is still deposited in transit to the tumor than within the tumor volume itself. Now with protons, we have a technology that can actually reverse that trend, and decrease the integral dose, by nearly half compared to X-rays. Now imagine doing IMRT or VMAT with that beam, one that stops where you tell it to.

With heavier ions like carbon or helium (alpha particles = high LET), we may actually be able to drop integral dose by half again, due to the peak RBE being 2-3x higher for heavy ions (vs 1.1 for protons and 1.0 for X-rays). Half the dose to normal tissue and double the dose to tumor? How is this not of interest to a medical discipline that has always thrived by improving the therapeutic ratio? Now that is painting with biology, not just physical dose.

People complain about cost, but cost is not a static variable. High costs once applied to cell phones, personal computers and airline flights. In 1971, only 15% of the US population had flown but now over 85% have, because costs came down with adoption, even as fuel prices went up. Solar panel prices were $76.00 in 1977 versus $0.25 per watt in 2017. It's now cheaper to build a new solar farm than to run an existing coal plant. Old coal plants are now fired up only for "prescribed burns." Is this a metaphor for our field?

The cost of technology always comes down with time, ingenuity and increased adoption. Already the price of proton and carbon machines are coming down rapidly. We may yet find ourselves living in an era where the price of a new particle center costs less per room than equipping a large hospital with all-new Linacs in separate vaults. If socialized countries like Italy, Japan, Germany, Austria, and China can already afford 10 carbon ion centers between them, why are we the technological laggard? The NIH considers it a matter of national interest, and I think our specialty should too.

You speak as if integral dose is the only thing that matters for toxicity. The majority of severe RT toxicities are due to high dose radiation, not low or medium. Protons will always be worse than photons in high dose because of range uncertainty and sometimes robustness issues. It’s possible it could reduce second cancers but just as likely it could worsen grade 3+ toxicity.

IMRT was a parachute compared to 3D, but there are legitimate reasons to believe protons are no better or possibly even worse than IMRT.
 
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IMRT moves the dose around in comparison to 3D, but does not actually decrease the total radiation dose to the patient. More X-ray dose is still deposited in transit to the tumor than within the tumor volume itself. Now with protons, we have a technology that can actually reverse that trend, and decrease the integral dose, by nearly half compared to X-rays. Now imagine doing IMRT or VMAT with that beam, one that stops where you tell it to.

Also, to say that the proton beam stops where we tell it to is oversimplified. Between range uncertainty and beam path anatomic changes it’s far from certain where the beam is actually stopping.
 
Proton looks great in dosimetry but hasn't been proven to have a clinical benefit in the patient, even in retrospective series (not true for many/most sites comparing 3D vs IMRT).

How about we have ANY signal that proton improves toxicity compared to photon before we start throwing out these comparisons?

There's retrospective studies showing decreased toxicity with prostate IMRT. RTOG 0617 is the justification to doing IMRT for lung due to decrease in toxicity. Sentinel LNB vs Axillary LND was evaluated in a randomized clinical trial after tons of retrospective data showing that it was oncologically safe.

To poo-poo IMRT and say ions are going to be better is just silly, IMO. Enjoy your kool-aid.
 
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He/She's not poo-pooing IMRT. He's saying we should be engaged in studying carbon ion. Which we should be.

This part is insanely true:

'People complain about cost, but cost is not a static variable. High costs once applied to cell phones, personal computers and airline flights. In 1971, only 15% of the US population had flown but now over 85% have, because costs came down with adoption, even as fuel prices went up. Solar panel prices were $76.00 in 1977 versus $0.25 per watt in 2017. It's now cheaper to build a new solar farm than to run an existing coal plant. Old coal plants are now fired up only for "prescribed burns." Is this a metaphor for our field?

The cost of technology always comes down with time, ingenuity and increased adoption. Already the price of proton and carbon machines are coming down rapidly. We may yet find ourselves living in an era where the price of a new particle center costs less per room than equipping a large hospital with all-new Linacs in separate vaults. If socialized countries like Italy, Japan, Germany, Austria, and China can already afford 10 carbon ion centers between them, why are we the technological laggard? The NIH considers it a matter of national interest, and I think our specialty should too.'


To think anything we do right now in rad onc is how it's always going to be is insanely myopic.

Half of this place wants nothing to ever change to keep the gravy train rolling
The other half of people complain that our field is short-sighted and we never do anything to advance the field


It's funny.
 
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I have no issue with the trial being performed. I hope, for our patients' sake, that it's positive.

Based off the points being made in that post, it smacked heavily of the proton zealot mantra of "it is unethical to randomize a patient to a photon vs proton trial because protons are clearly so much better" (link here: https://ascopubs.org/doi/10.1200/JCO.2007.14.4329). Perhaps that's my own projection.
 
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I have no issue with the trial being performed. I hope, for our patients' sake, that it's positive.

Based off the points being made in that post, it smacked heavily of the proton zealot mantra of "it is unethical to randomize a patient to a photon vs proton trial because protons are clearly so much better". Perhaps that's my own projection.


I didn't get that from the post.

tbh, I didn't train in Proton but I do know people that use it - that seems like sort of a straw man statement right there, I don't think there are really any significant portion of people saying that sort of thing, if any.
 
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He/She's not poo-pooing IMRT. He's saying we should be engaged in studying carbon ion. Which we should be.

This part is insanely true:

'People complain about cost, but cost is not a static variable. High costs once applied to cell phones, personal computers and airline flights. In 1971, only 15% of the US population had flown but now over 85% have, because costs came down with adoption, even as fuel prices went up. Solar panel prices were $76.00 in 1977 versus $0.25 per watt in 2017. It's now cheaper to build a new solar farm than to run an existing coal plant. Old coal plants are now fired up only for "prescribed burns." Is this a metaphor for our field?

The cost of technology always comes down with time, ingenuity and increased adoption. Already the price of proton and carbon machines are coming down rapidly. We may yet find ourselves living in an era where the price of a new particle center costs less per room than equipping a large hospital with all-new Linacs in separate vaults. If socialized countries like Italy, Japan, Germany, Austria, and China can already afford 10 carbon ion centers between them, why are we the technological laggard? The NIH considers it a matter of national interest, and I think our specialty should too.'


Is it really true? Single Gantry impt units are still going for ~$20 million are they not? Sure that's better than the $100-150 million of the original 3 story non impt units, but hundreds of percent higher than a $3 million sbrt/imrt capable linac.

Sorry but the imrt vs 3d argument being used as an analogy to justify examining protons and carbon ions is way off base and smacks of a red herring argument.

Considering how much the US consumer and patient bears the cost from big pharma for drug development compared to rest of the developed world, I'm fine with Japan and Europe paying up and figuring out carbon ions for us first
 
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Considering how much the US consumer and patient bears the cost from big pharma for drug development compared to rest of the developed world, I'm fine with Japan and Europe paying up and figuring out carbon ions for us first

I don't think there is any evidence of a causal relationship between where research occurs and the cost to the consumer in that country (correct me if I am wrong). The US consumer is penalized for having a corrupt political system where a corporation's money is considered "speech" protected by the first amendment. Thus, ceteris paribus, I prefer to do the science myself.

EDIT (replaced "correlation" with "a causal relationship").
 
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I don't think there is any evidence of a correlation between where research occurs and the cost to the consumer in that country (correct me if I am wrong). The US consumer is penalized for having a corrupt political system where a corporations money is considered free speech. Thus, ceteris paribus, I prefer to do the science myself.
Big pharma takes advantage and charges the most here to recoup what is not an insignificant cost

 
Is it really true? Single Gantry impt units are still going for ~$20 million are they not? Sure that's better than the $100-150 million of the original 3 story non impt units, but hundreds of percent higher than a $3 million sbrt/imrt capable linac.

Sorry but the imrt vs 3d argument being used as an analogy to justify examining protons and carbon ions is way off base and smacks of a red herring argument.

Considering how much the US consumer and patient bears the cost from big pharma for drug development compared to rest of the developed world, I'm fine with Japan and Europe paying up and figuring out carbon ions for us first

Regarding costs coming down, there is an interesting comparison at hand in Spain, where Madrid is getting 2 proton centers in the next 2 years.


The first one, due in 2019, with an IBA compact cyclotron and half-gantry, costs roughly $40 Million Euro, machine and building included.

The second center, due only 1 year later, has a Hitachi synchrotron and full gantry costing $40 million Euro, machine and building included, with an option to expand.

A full gantry is a big added value to clinical through-put compared to a half-gantry, probably saves 5 minutes on every complex treatment, but the option to expand is an even bigger deal, because as program growth occurs, the cost of the accelerator is further amortized. It only costs the gantry and vault, roughly $5-10 million, to double capacity, and another $5-10 million to triple capacity.

Each added proton room is at nearly the cost of building a new MRI linac and vault, is it not? Non-gantry rooms for a chair or laterals only, are even smaller and cheaper. Chicago's proton center has such a chair room, as do many carbon facilities for lateral-only beam rooms.

Someone mentioned range uncertainty of particles is an issue. True, but there is a difference between an unknown and the unknowable.

There are some technology advances that are already improving accuracy of delivery. One is daily 3D imaging at isocenter, which is near-ubiquitous with IMRT and common with proton v2.0 (pencil beam scanning era), but many proton centers built in the proton v1.0 era (passive scatter, 2D imaging) are now being retro-fitted with CT and PBS, or augmented by new proton centers (eg MDA).

One way to improve stopping power calculation is correction of the Hounsfield Lookup Table by using Dual Energy CT calibration curves, which Wolhlfahrt, Mohler, Troost, Geilich and Richter in Dresden and Heidelberg have shown can improve stopping power calculations by about 1.2% from the usual +/- 3.5%.

Doing patient-specific stopping power calculations using Dual Energy CT can further reduce stopping power uncertainty by another 1% or so, to about +/- 1.5% for mixed tissues, using a technology that is in everyone's dept (a CT scanner run at 80 KVp, then again at 150 KVp = dual energy CT).

Here is their latest manuscript, not yet published in the Red Journal:


For those looking to the future, proton v3.0 will feature further advances like proton CT, in which we can capture and image an exiting proton beam for direct verification of beam path trajectory and stopping power. Physicists like Mark Pankuch, PhD in Chicago are already looking at this for brain, H&N and lung using existing hardware. Arc therapy will probably be part of proton v3.0 as well, which may help improve robustness by splitting one or two large directional uncertainties into multiple small opposing uncertainties. LET-based or RBE-based planning will also help move hotspots into GTVs, and away from structures like optic nerves or brainstem, further improving plan quality and safety. Just my 2 cents.
 
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Neutrons maimed and killed Roger Ebert.
Seen a couple pubic ramus fractures as late effects of proton prostate treatment.
If stuff like this happened with xrays I would swear off xrays.
Can’t wait to see what happens with carbon ions. Heard a couple guys from Japan say they’re great in the 90’s. Gotta wonder when something is great and decades later people are saying it’s still great but the great thing hasn’t really manifested what the problem is. IMRT took off like a scalded cat. It seems protons’ adoption has been jackrabbitic but in reality it’s been more tortoisian.
 
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Can’t wait to see what happens with carbon ions. Heard a couple guys from Japan say they’re great in the 90’s. Gotta wonder when something is great and decades later people are saying it’s still great but the great thing hasn’t really manifested what the problem is. IMRT took off like a scalded cat. It seems protons’ adoption has been jackrabbitic but in reality it’s been more tortoisian.

One thing I learned from my particle therapy course is that we do not fully grasp the effects of heavy particles on normal tissue and tumor tissue yet. It seems that some tumors will respond better to particle therapy than to photon or proton treatment. But then there are other tumors were heavy particles will actually perform worse than photons or protons in terms of tumor cell kill per Gy.
The entire biology behind heavy particles is not quite clear yet.

My perception is that in far future we may be mixing treatments. Perhaps (just a theory) tumors need a photon/proton backbone to kill off most of the cells and then some dose with heavy particles to get rid of the hypoxic, difficult to tackle with when using only photons/protons, parts of the tumor.
But that's just my theory. The Germans have been running some trials at Heidelberg with mixed modalities, albeit its certainly also for capacity reasons.
 
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If it is a negative trial, do you think they will publish? Hope so.
 
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