Neurotherm needles

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MitchLevi

MitchLevi

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Which needles are compatible with Neurotherm?

Does anyone have a chart for that?

Abbott, with no warning, has increased the cost of a box of 10 RFA needles from $140 to $300. We didn't realize it.

I will not be buying from them again.

Does anyone know what other needles that RFA generator can use?
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thanks for the information, i do not use neurotherm, i did not hear the abbott increase rfa needles to $300.
 
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Abbott probes went from $1000 to $2700.
 
yeah, abbott is squeezing us, too
 
Abbott is now saying each probe has 45 uses before being need of replacement.

The older rep told us 100+ in 2017.

F Abbott.
 
MitchLevi said:
Abbott is now saying each probe has 45 uses before being need of replacement.

The older rep told us 100+ in 2017.

F Abbott.
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we had abbott needles and probes. probes kept breaking, so we went with disposables, but they are pretty $$$ as well.

evidently stryker has these really bendy probes, but you have to use them with the venom needles, which are pricey. the stryker probes are marketed for 4-500 uses and it does look like they are made better. they will give you the RF generator if you buy their needles/probes. not sure how the money exactly works out.

major take away here is that we also had a big problem with abbott recently.
 
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i believe we were charged $800 for 5 of those plastic covers that go over the probe.

i was going to go to Home Depot and buy some plastic tubing to replace them instead but Sterile Processing said they wouldnt accept that...
 
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Wow. Two years ago I spoke with both Abbott and BS regarding an RF machine. They both offered a machine if I did a certain number of stim implants.

We eventually got the BS/cosman machine for free. I’m Really glad I’m not stuck with the Abbott/neurotherm machine.
 
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Yes, everyone that has an ABT machine is switching over to MDT here locally due to the same issues. I have used a Stryker Multigen 2 a couple times at an HOPD and it is a very nice machine. Feels more robust than the MDT machine. My MDT probes go down all of the time but the rep replaces them under warranty.
 
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I used a Stryker Multigen 1 for around 5 years. Never had a probe go down. Did have the first unit crater after a couple months which was under warranty.
 
We switched to Medtronic about a year ago. Same issues with Abbott, warranty, used to be one year, then, six months, then 90 days. Medtronic has a much better warranty, two years, and their machines worked fine. Agree with Bob Barker, everyone here is switching to Medtronic.
 
Sounds like Abbott/Neurotherm is trying to tank their RF business. They are saying our Neurotherm at the ASC is end of life and cannot be repaired and trying to push their Ionic RF system on us and not giving a good deal at all. After an immense amount of money spent on disposables over the years at our surgery center this does not sit well with me at all.

That leaves Stryker, Medtronic, Boston Scientific/Cosman, and Avanos/Baylis

Which of these systems are 1) cost effective outside of an HOPD setting (ie, uses standard RF probes, not water cooled, not multi pronged) 2) cut good deals if using SCS systems or their other gear 3) have good warranties?
 
MitchLevi said:
Which needles are compatible with Neurotherm?

Does anyone have a chart for that?

Abbott, with no warning, has increased the cost of a box of 10 RFA needles from $140 to $300. We didn't realize it.

I will not be buying from them again.

Does anyone know what other needles that RFA generator can use?
Click to expand...
IMG_2673.jpeg
 
Abbott needles and probes haven't increased for us yet
 
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Update: Emailed Abbott. Refunding us money after I emailed them.

Not sure why this happened, but our invoices are CLEARLY 300 per box of 10 needles and 2700 per probe.

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Sig123 said:
How many grounding pads per box?
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Exactly my question. You can get generic medline or 3m grounding pads for the Medtronic unit for a little bit of nothing. I bought a cord from medline and use it to attach the cordless 3m grounding pads. I have used the corded medline grounding pads many times also.
 
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MitchLevi said:
What is an uncorded pad?
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An ‘uncorded pad’ doesent have the connection to plug into RFA machine

Rather, you get a reusable cord that you connect to the grounding pad on one end and into the RFA unit on the other.

Reason to do this is uncorded pads are just cheaper then the the pads that have the cord built in.
 
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Our Stryker nitinol probes are failing after less than 100 uses, not honoring warranty. Most of the wires are coiling within the plastic sheath near the plug. A few have worn through.

In the market for something different. MDT looking promising.

Then there was this…
 

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cowboydoc said:
Our Stryker nitinol probes are failing after less than 100 uses, not honoring warranty. Most of the wires are coiling within the plastic sheath near the plug. A few have worn through.

In the market for something different. MDT looking promising.

Then there was this…
Click to expand...

Medtronic warranty on probes has been outstanding.
 
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BobBarker said:
I would really examine your processes. I can’t see the Stryker’s failing like that.
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The SPD at the HOPD seems to have new staff every week. The rep/company blamed cleaning process on the failures. I have no control of that circus, but want to make sure the new unit is reliable.
 
BobBarker said:
The Stryker units are better than mdt. It is a staff issue.
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Well, $#!+! I have some influence over the machine, none over staff. I’m going to have to look into your analysis of retirement plan going private more closely. I have a couple hundred K wrapped up in retirement incentives with my current employer that would be hard to walk away from. My allergy to BS continues to grow…
 
So $8-10k a month on disposable probes? Probaby another $2500 on grounding pads and needles. Do you have partners that are using a similar amount? Lots of waste also with the disposables filling up the sharps bin and all of the packaging. The only one that this makes sense for is the rep.


I know of a practice where the doc would place the needles, motor test, and numb then allow an assistant to move the probe and burn all 6 locations while he would go see more office visits.
 
BobBarker said:
So $8-10k a month on disposable probes? Probaby another $2500 on grounding pads and needles. Do you have partners that are using a similar amount? Lots of waste also with the disposables filling up the sharps bin and all of the packaging. The only one that this makes sense for is the rep.


I know of a practice where the doc would place the needles, motor test, and numb then allow an assistant to move the probe and burn all 6 locations while he would go see more office visits.
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it is stupid. 100%

i used re-usable cosman probes for years. they did break retty frequently, and "management" made the decision to go with disposables so we would always have enough probes available. shrug

i think it is a huge waste and have run the numbers with them. i'll do maybe 5-10 RFs/week -- usually 7 -- and i pretty much always use 3 probes.
 
3 reusable probes per RFA for me, and I do prob 10 per week on avg.

Abbott probes USUALLY work just fine.

I can't imagine using single use probes.

I don't see how they're appreciably faster for me TBH, at least not significantly faster to the point I'm able to save enough time that I create another procedure slot.

I remove the probes when the procedure is finished, wrap the probes around my hand and place them in a procedure tray. Set it off to the side on a table, and after my procedure day is finished an MA walks them all to the autoclave and drops them off.
 
MitchLevi said:
3 reusable probes per RFA for me, and I do prob 10 per week on avg.

Abbott probes USUALLY work just fine.

I can't imagine using single use probes.

I don't see how they're appreciably faster for me TBH, at least not significantly faster to the point I'm able to save enough time that I create another procedure slot.

I remove the probes when the procedure is finished, wrap the probes around my hand and place them in a procedure tray. Set it off to the side on a table, and after my procedure day is finished an MA walks them all to the autoclave and drops them off.
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No diff in time between the reusable and disposable. I just need to open 3/case. I am not burning one at a time to save money on the cost of the probe
 
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lobelsteve said:
2-4 per case. 2-4 rfs per day. 5 days per week.
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You have said that even though you are managed by the hospital you are still billing as an office. How does that work out financially for your employer? I calculate it that they lose money on every RFA you do after paying you the RVU’s, paying for $400 in disposables (drapes, needles, probes, everything), paying for staff.
 
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Looking at a new machine for my office. Initially thinking Boston/Cosman. Read some mixed things in this thread and elsewhere… anyone been overall happy with the generator and found their electrodes reliable and durable?


What are people typically being charged for the cannula with the different companies? Also, I’ve heard about getting great deals on the machine or even free if you have high stim volume with their parent company….. in that case, do they typically also include the electrodes?
 
Taus said:
Looking at a new machine for my office. Initially thinking Boston/Cosman. Read some mixed things in this thread and elsewhere… anyone been overall happy with the generator and found their electrodes reliable and durable?


What are people typically being charged for the cannula with the different companies? Also, I’ve heard about getting great deals on the machine or even free if you have high stim volume with their parent company….. in that case, do they typically also include the electrodes?
Click to expand...
I've had Boston for about a year. No broken probes. Sidekick cannulas cheaper than Vernon. The heat up is sequential, about 10 sec lag between each one, so a 90 sec burn takes more like 120 sec. Good rebate deal with SCS, for generator and a set of probes, not even high volume
 
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Locally, MDT is the way to go. They honor their warranty on the probes without issue. My deal was pretty simple. The RF generator is on a placement deal. bought the probes and needles. It doesn’t have anything to do with my stim volume. But more probes than you think you will need. I bought 13 to start with and now have around 24. The autoclave is hot and loud and I hate flipping probes during a procedure day.


Stryker is more durable. But that doesn’t matter as much due to the MDT warranty. Cost no issue? Stryker Multigen 2 with Venom is the overall best.
 
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Taus said:
Looking at a new machine for my office. Initially thinking Boston/Cosman. Read some mixed things in this thread and elsewhere… anyone been overall happy with the generator and found their electrodes reliable and durable?


What are people typically being charged for the cannula with the different companies? Also, I’ve heard about getting great deals on the machine or even free if you have high stim volume with their parent company….. in that case, do they typically also include the electrodes?
Click to expand...
Had a Cosman machine a few years ago. Really wasn’t impressed by the electrodes or the machine. We had both stainless steel and nitinol probes. Had issues with both of them bending at the hub. Also, more alarmingly, sometimes the temperature sensor would malfunction and read low (like room temp) even when the machine was turned on, so I had no idea how hot it would actually get (immediately removed and discarded those electrodes when I noticed it happening obviously). We now have 2 Stryker Multigen 2s. Spendy, but reliable and fast.
 
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BobBarker said:
Locally, MDT is the way to go. They honor their warranty on the probes without issue. My deal was pretty simple. The RF generator is on a placement deal. bought the probes and needles. It doesn’t have anything to do with my stim volume. But more probes than you think you will need. I bought 13 to start with and now have around 24. The autoclave is hot and loud and I hate flipping probes during a procedure day.


Stryker is more durable. But that doesn’t matter as much due to the MDT warranty. Cost no issue? Stryker Multigen 2 with Venom is the overall best.
Click to expand...

With your placement deal, what did you end up paying per probe? And what’s your per needle price?
 
Sig123 said:
With your placement deal, what did you end up paying per probe? And what’s your per needle price?
Click to expand...
Great info in this thread, thank you.

MDT unit have a venom/sidekick equivalent? Their proprietary unit vs acquired other rfa system?
 
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