Neurology incomes going up and up

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bronx43

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So, in the past two years, neurologists' median salaries have gone up from $230k to $280k. A $50k jump in two years is pretty staggering without some big increase in reimbursement rates. There also seems to be A LOT more neuro jobs out there - especially locum tenems - and many are pretty high paying. Does anyone know what is causing this, and whether or not this upward trend can continue for a bit longer? I've heard that it's due to neurologists doing more procedures like IVIG injections or EEG/EMGs, and I've also heard that it's due to neurologists going into chronic pain.
It's probably some combination of both, but what do practicing neurologists here think? What is the main factor for this sudden surge?

http://www.merritthawkins.com/compensation-surveys.aspx

Neurology
2009/10 $180,000 $281,000 $460,000
2008/09 $180,000 $258,000 $375,000
2007/08 $150,000 $230,000 $325,000
2006/07 $170,000 $234,000 $275,000

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Maybe I'm just getting even more cynical than usual but...

I think if anything neurologists should expect to make less based on office reimbursements, declining Medicare reimbursements, and decreased compensation for their inpatient consultations. So I doubt the numbers you see are due to neurologists doing more procedures and getting paid more.

Few procedures in neurology pay great anyway...polysomnograms, pain procedures like nerve blocks, and EMG's are about it - unless the neuro group has some stake in the local imaging center.

But I absolutely believe the numbers are rocketing up...just not for the reasons you cite. Rather, I think what you're seeing is the "law of supply and demand." With an aging population (projected needs for neurologists were growing five years ago, and are projected to keep growing now and in the future), and more and more neurologists retiring...there are relatively tons of jobs out there with hospitals/groups paying "well" for the benefit of having neurologists on call (for ER coverage) and having their services available in the outpatient setting.

It helps that most non-neuro people in ER and IM etc seem to be terrified of neurology since in residency they never had to deal with neuro issues and consequently never learned much about it. IM people scored abysmally year after year on the neurology section of their in-service examinations at my hospital. Why? In big tertiary centers with neurology residency programs you tend to have neurology set up as a large IM-type admitting service that gets pummeled. If the service is there...it gets used.

Remember too, stroke and neurological medicine have been exploding in the past years, and being a Primary Stroke Center or JCAHO certified for stroke or a Stroke Center of Excellence or offering a neurointensive care unit or being an Epilepsy Center of Excellence (you get the idea) has become more of a rage...and you need neurologists to fill those slots and make a program at a private hospital fly. You cannot do this if you don't want to pay the neurologist a competitive salary.

Plus, we're feeders for radiology and neurosurgery, and hospitals recognize that it's financially beneficial to have a neurology group there to generate the "real" money for the hospital in terms of procedures and imaging.

Probably I'm wrong and it's just fellow-level cynicism you're hearing from me.

Like you, I'd also be happy to hear what attedings and private practicioners think.
 
Maybe I'm just getting even more cynical than usual but...

I think if anything neurologists should expect to make less based on office reimbursements, declining Medicare reimbursements, and decreased compensation for their inpatient consultations. So I doubt the numbers you see are due to neurologists doing more procedures and getting paid more.

Few procedures in neurology pay great anyway...polysomnograms, pain procedures like nerve blocks, and EMG's are about it - unless the neuro group has some stake in the local imaging center.

But I absolutely believe the numbers are rocketing up...just not for the reasons you cite. Rather, I think what you're seeing is the "law of supply and demand." With an aging population (projected needs for neurologists were growing five years ago, and are projected to keep growing now and in the future), and more and more neurologists retiring...there are relatively tons of jobs out there with hospitals/groups paying "well" for the benefit of having neurologists on call (for ER coverage) and having their services available in the outpatient setting.

It helps that most non-neuro people in ER and IM etc seem to be terrified of neurology since in residency they never had to deal with neuro issues and consequently never learned much about it. IM people scored abysmally year after year on the neurology section of their in-service examinations at my hospital. Why? In big tertiary centers with neurology residency programs you tend to have neurology set up as a large IM-type admitting service that gets pummeled. If the service is there...it gets used.

Remember too, stroke and neurological medicine have been exploding in the past years, and being a Primary Stroke Center or JCAHO certified for stroke or a Stroke Center of Excellence or offering a neurointensive care unit or being an Epilepsy Center of Excellence (you get the idea) has become more of a rage...and you need neurologists to fill those slots and make a program at a private hospital fly. You cannot do this if you don't want to pay the neurologist a competitive salary.

Plus, we're feeders for radiology and neurosurgery, and hospitals recognize that it's financially beneficial to have a neurology group there to generate the "real" money for the hospital in terms of procedures and imaging.

Probably I'm wrong and it's just fellow-level cynicism you're hearing from me.

Like you, I'd also be happy to hear what attedings and private practicioners think.

Thanks for the response, daniel. What fellowship are you doing in neuro? Do you know what kind of offers your residency colleagues were getting post-residency?
 
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Thanks for the response, daniel. What fellowship are you doing in neuro? Do you know what kind of offers your residency colleagues were getting post-residency?

No problem. I'm completing a fellowship in Sleep Medicine. I originally started out wanting to go into Interventional neurology. The anecdotal information of my colleagues (and myself) may not be terribly helpful to you...the ranges are pretty much what you can already see and are really extremely variable based on type of practice, location, etc.

The lowest I heard: $180,000 base pay guaranteed, plus incentives in revenue generation, plus benefits package. This was private practice. I suspect academic jobs start at lower ranges, I just never specifically heard of any.

The highest I heard that sounded legitimate: $350,000 plus benefits. A sweet situation, too.

The highest I EVER heard: $650,000 base pay guaranteed (seriously), plus benefits package. It was in an insanely bad location, and was an insanely busy situation. The guy I knew didn't even think about taking the offer.

These aren't from my own personal experience. So the information is strictly second-hand and thus...pretty valueless in my opinion. And I'm sure two hundred people can get on here and give more extreme examples...this is just people I knew who were willing to tell me what they were being offered.

I've heard of multiple, established private practice neurologists making well over the numbers you quote in the article (from physician recruiters, though), but I surmise they are in the minority. The trends I've seen are absolutely similar to the abovementioned article range and tend to mirror overall desirability of the job. The less popular a job might be, the more it pays to incentivize someone to work there.

Examples of this include geographically less desirable areas paying higher, and cushy, more desirable, strictly outpatient practices with no in-hospital responsibilities paying less. And this is a pretty nebulous concept you'll find, as where I might be interested in living could be vastly different than where you want to live.

It's just so incredibly variable. Do you want to make a ton of money? Do you want to live in New York or San Francisco? Do you want a system with Stroke Alerts? Research potential? Do you want to never see a pediatric neurology patient? Do you want somewhere close to home for your wife? Do you want to do lots of general neurology, or stroke, or maybe absolutely no epilepsy whatsoever? On an individual basis, you can easliy find one of these traits...but the trick gets to be balancing multiple desirable characteristics and figuring out where to draw the line.

As long as you're being reasonable, I think you can find whatever type situation you want. There really seems to be no end to the various types of neurology opportunities one can find right now. I also suspect that we'll continue to see salaries on the rise for the next few years. At least until the "law of supply and demand" evens back out.
 
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No problem. I'm completing a fellowship in Sleep Medicine. I originally started out wanting to go into Interventional neurology. The anecdotal information of my colleagues (and myself) may not be terribly helpful to you...the ranges are pretty much what you can already see and are really extremely variable based on type of practice, location, etc.

The lowest I heard: $180,000 base pay guaranteed, plus incentives in revenue generation, plus benefits package. This was private practice. I suspect academic jobs start at lower ranges, I just never specifically heard of any.

The highest I heard that sounded legitimate: $350,000 plus benefits. A sweet situation, too.

The highest I EVER heard: $650,000 base pay guaranteed (seriously), plus benefits package. It was in an insanely bad location, and was an insanely busy situation. The guy I knew didn't even think about taking the offer.

These aren't from my own personal experience. So the information is strictly second-hand and thus...pretty valueless in my opinion. And I'm sure two hundred people can get on here and give more extreme examples...this is just people I knew who were willing to tell me what they were being offered.

I've heard of multiple, established private practice neurologists making well over the numbers you quote in the article (from physician recruiters, though), but I surmise they are in the minority. The trends I've seen are absolutely similar to the abovementioned article range and tend to mirror overall desirability of the job. The less popular a job might be, the more it pays to incentivize someone to work there.

Examples of this include geographically less desirable areas paying higher, and cushy, more desirable, strictly outpatient practices with no in-hospital responsibilities paying less. And this is a pretty nebulous concept you'll find, as where I might be interested in living could be vastly different than where you want to live.

It's just so incredibly variable. Do you want to make a ton of money? Do you want to live in New York or San Francisco? Do you want a system with Stroke Alerts? Research potential? Do you want to never see a pediatric neurology patient? Do you want somewhere close to home for your wife? Do you want to do lots of general neurology, or stroke, or maybe absolutely no epilepsy whatsoever? On an individual basis, you can easliy find one of these traits...but the trick gets to be balancing multiple desirable characteristics and figuring out where to draw the line.

As long as you're being reasonable, I think you can find whatever type situation you want. There really seems to be no end to the various types of neurology opportunities one can find right now. I also suspect that we'll continue to see salaries on the rise for the next few years. At least until the "law of supply and demand" evens back out.
Amazing and logical description. A question: Why didn't you go into Interventional Neurology? I ask this, because the main reason that I want to apply for Neurology residency this year is the interest toward Neurovascular and especially Interventional Neurology; otherwise I would go into Internal Medicine and hopefully Cardiology sub. I've heard lots of stories about how Neurosurgeons and Radiologists made this field in their exclusivity and hospitals usually prefer to have them to do the intervention, since neurosurgeons can handle the possible adverse outcome such as ICH,... and radiologists can be helpful in reading the imaging in their extra times. Moreover, there are few programs to accept Neurologists for this subspecialty.
These days I'm in a very tough moments to decide between Neurology and Internal Medicine (Cardio) and my cold feet is just because of the aforementioned issue. Honestly, if I feel insecurity in the field of Interventional Neurology in my future career, I will not go into Neurology.
Any help/advice is greatly appreciated.
 
A question: Why didn't you go into Interventional Neurology?

I've heard lots of stories about how Neurosurgeons and Radiologists made this field in their exclusivity and hospitals usually prefer to have them to do the intervention, since neurosurgeons can handle the possible adverse outcome such as ICH,... and radiologists can be helpful in reading the imaging in their extra times. Moreover, there are few programs to accept Neurologists for this subspecialty.

:hijacked:

Here we go with my cynicism again. Be warned when asking for my advice.

Truly, you should check out the MANY threads regarding interventional neurology and stroke neurology on these boards (including radiology and neurosurgery) for more than you could ever want to know about this topic. For bonus credit, you can check out additional forums at auntminnie.com and uncleharvey.com (for pure, undiluted, vitrioloic, and vested financial interests, hubris, and concomitant insecurity).

First, I got married. There was more along the way in terms of "life issues" that happened to me also. Long story short...my priorities simply changed (you'll find it happens to most of us from M1 year to the end of residency). And sleep medicine is a skyrocketing, nascent field with good money potential, excellent lifestyle, fascinating subject matter (to me), great research potential, and plenty of cool respiratory and neurological overlap. I suppose you could surmise from the interest in interventional neurology that I was fond of critical care, pulmonary medicine, and neuroanatomy. You can at least find the latter two in sleep medicine.

But there's alot more to the story from a career viewpoint, too. Basically, I also got disillusioned with how much I would be a primary care doctor with a little bit of neuro knowledge (I meant to say "Vascular neurologist" :D) to the ER and for the majority of my work. IVtPA is a rare thing compared to the overall number of times you get paged for an "acute stroke." And those elegant, fascinating interventions are even rarer. The work isn't very fast-paced most of the time...and really most patients "just" require meticulous medical management...not specialized neurologic knowledge. So, not too much adrenaline surge in most of those CVA alerts...it was just someone from another hospital trying to punt work/difficult patients/patients whose reimbursement was going to be unnatractive/anyone over the age of 90 (and of course, legal responsibility!) to a bigger hospital. Sort of like Trauma and lots of neurosurgery.

Have no fear from radiologists or neurosurgeons in the interventional neurology market. If you want to do it, go for it! Life is way too short to spend your work not doing what you love. NIR radiology spots will go unfilled (regularly I suspect) because radiology residents can make nearly as much money for a LOT less stress (and night call) by doing diagnostic radiology or diagnostic neuroradiology (why do most of them go into radiology to begin with, right?). This is why eventually they'll keep losing ground in this (and the other interventional) areas. Oh, make no mistake, there are some awesome radiologists who aren't afraid of seeing patients out there who will continue to be role models for ALL of us...but they are a shrinking minority of their specialty and will only become more endangered as time goes by. Those among them who do actually go into NIR usually are anxious to be exclusive proceduralists and consultants...not an admitting service like neurology and/or neurosurgery.

Neurosurgeons won't hold you back, either. Most of them are perfectly happy to share an interesting field with competent, professional colleuagues from ANY specialty. Some of them are terrified of losing ground to a medical-based specialty (CT surgery and cardiology throw things into an interesting, historical light, no?) and thus losing money, power, and patients (in that order I guess). So they will always keep a foothold in this area. And I think it's a wise move...who know what the future holds, right? But frankly, they can make much, much, much more money in spine surgery (and have a better lifestyle/call schedule to boot), and tend to opt out of the cerebrovascular route for similar reasons as the radiologists.

You have no need to be intimidated. Yeah, as a rule, both groups had better USMLE scores five, six or seven years ago (or whatever), but the quality of great neurology residents is going up and up, too. I believe we are in this subspecialty to stay - as we absolutely should be.

Long post. Still hoping to hear from advanced neurologists about their thoughts regarding the state of the neuro private practice market.
 
I would disagree that IV TPA is a rare thing. There are more and more hospitals (academic as well as non-academic) who are reporting IV TPA treatment rates about 20% (of all strokes). So thats a lot of TPA there. With telemedicine there is an increasing TPA volume and several hospitals want to be certified stroke centers. Also stroke accounts for the vast majority of inpatient neurology admissions. 'Neurohospitalists' are an increasing trend. Most of these are stroke or NICU trained neurologists who do not like to do outpt clinics. There is a lot of clinical management in acute stroke (which is not plain internal medicine). This is another reason why a lot of neurologists want to do outpt work and not respond to emergencies. The recent edition of 'Neurology Today' (an AAN news publication) tells it all.
Regarding neurointervention (look at my previous post - http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=730663

This is more political - but there are simply not enough ischemic stroke interventions for an interventional neurologist to survive on ischemic stroke alone. Majority (even diagnostic) INR cases come from nsurg. So even outside of academia non-nsurg INR practitioners have to depend on nsurgeons to give them cases. In reality this field at least as of now is a nsurg subspeciality. The older generation nsurgeons would let INR folks do the cases, but the current gen cerebrovasc nsurgeons are also endovascularly trained and have exclusive neurovasc practices (do not do gen nsurg). They will let a rad/neurologistst do a case if busy in the OR or on vacation.
There are treatments developing to augment IV TPA or treat pts beyond current time windows. With telemed there is a potential to use those treatments, but by the time pts are transferred to a facility with INR facilities, a lot of time goes by. So the practical utility of INR to open arteries at the earliest and be able to apply it to a large population is limited.
 
I would disagree that IV TPA is a rare thing.


My specific quote was "IVtPA is a rare thing compared to the overall number of times you get paged for an acute stroke."

It wasn't that IVtPA is rare for the true ischemic strokes. If your hospital is like mine was, there were false alerts more than 70% (or possibly 80%) of the time.
 
danielmd06
"I suppose you could surmise from the interest in interventional neurology that I was fond of critical care, pulmonary medicine, and neuroanatomy. You can at least find the latter two in sleep medicine."


Thanks a lot for such a detailed and precise reply. As a matter of fact, I was interested in adding some spice of interventions to Neurology or Internal Medicine, too (I have research experience and some publications in the field of critical care, cardiology, vascular disorder); and surprisingly Neuroanatomy and behavioral neurology are my passions. I didn't know such a sub in neurology can have these links to critical issues like pulmonary or even some types of heart failure or... while has a good life style and financial facilities (I used to think let's take a nap when I heard sleep medicine:sleep::D). Another concerning issue that Strokeguy has mentioned too is Telemedicine, that undoubtedly will affect so many specialties in near future, including Neurology.
Regarding this, what will be the entity/ outcome/ prognosis of Neuro subs in future ?(specially financial-oriented that is the main topic of this thread)
 
I do agree with false alarms. This is where clinical neurology comes into play. This underscores the need for neurohospitalists. Many neurologists only want to do outpt work. The good thing is that many neuro subspecialities are outpt based -clinical neurophys/epilepsy/neuromusc/MD. There are subspecialities as stroke and neurocritical care that are exclusively/predominantly inpt based. This is where the current trend is - neurology is dichotomized into these broad gps. Neurohospitalists are trained as stroke or NICU docs. The hospitals hire them for a given fixed salary and they see/admit pts from the ER and make all treatment decisions. Since vast majority of these pts are strokes so their training is useful. A lot of hospitalists have very limited outpt clinics. Many also run the stroke service, so there is a mix -stroke unit/Neuro ICU/ In pt wards. They also do telemedicine for acute neurologic emergencies. If any inpt needs an EEG/EMG/NCS then the outpt guys perform and read those. This, in my opinion is a good thing. MDs who do not have the personality to respond to acute emergencies should not treat those pts. This is also a reflection of the way neurology has evolved.
Telemedicine is not going to take cases away from qualified physicians, but will make it more accessible and help concentrate clinical care in trained hands. Several major stroke centers, even non-academic have evolved now, so this trend is there to stay (for the better).
 
First, I got married. There was more along the way in terms of "life issues" that happened to me also. Long story short...my priorities simply changed (you'll find it happens to most of us from M1 year to the end of residency). And sleep medicine is a skyrocketing, nascent field with good money potential, excellent lifestyle, fascinating subject matter (to me), great research potential, and plenty of cool respiratory and neurological overlap. I suppose you could surmise from the interest in interventional neurology that I was fond of critical care, pulmonary medicine, and neuroanatomy. You can at least find the latter two in sleep medicine.


Thanks for all the info danielmd. I'm sure it will help other medical students as much as it has helped me.

And about sleep medicine, it does sound interesting. How much money do you make in that subspecialty? From most of the posts I've read, it doesn't seem that different from general neurology. And some have said that it's mostly just obstructive sleep apnea in the outpatient setting.

And just curious, how much are INR guys making?
Thanks again.
 
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Thanks for all the info danielmd. I'm sure it will help other medical students as much as it has helped me.

And about sleep medicine, it does sound interesting. How much money do you make in that subspecialty? From most of the posts I've read, it doesn't seem that different from general neurology. And some have said that it's mostly just obstructive sleep apnea in the outpatient setting.

And just curious, how much are INR guys making?
Thanks again.

No problem. First, I'll leave the "INR salaries question" to the people like Strokeguy who can answer with far more authority on that subject.

Sleep salaries are pretty wide...just like general neurology. I think the general neurology numbers you posted originally are fair (sort of) for sleep. At least from what I've found so far on the interview trail (which is admittedly limited). Google it, search it twenty times on Yahoo, or scope the MGMA books (under pulmonary or neurology) and you get plenty of different answers.

Bottom line...are you wanting to practice pulmonary medicine or general neurology plus sleep on the side, or just 100% sleep, and do you want to be in academic medicine or private practice? Supply and demand for pulmonary or neurology might skew the numbers around. And sorry if this is a bit too vague...I'm trying to walk a fine line here and not blather about money. If you are interested enough...check around with the guys practicing in your area.

And remember, sleep pays well right now...but will in all likelihood take cuts just like all the other diagnostic testing modalities. Love it before you think of doing it...just in case the money dries up.

And no it's NOT just a clinic for OSA. There are plenty of threads about this in the Sleep Medicine section. When it's not obstructive sleep apnea is when things get interesting, and when alot of those fly-by-night "sleep specialists" and non-AASM accredited labs start getting into trouble. Try checking out the AAN's Continuum for Sleep Disorders, the AASM's International Classification of Sleep Disorders, the Sleep classes at the AAN conferences, the annual AASM conference, the AASM's official website...you get the idea. There is PLENTY to sleep medicine beyond OSA.
 
thanks for the info.. i'm gonna have to use this when i start negotiating for my contract.. :D
 
I think the main thing Neurology has going for it is a favorable long-term need for Neurologists. As the population ages and diseases like stroke and dementia become more and more common, the need for Neurologists to properly manage these conditions will increase. Currently, there is a relative undersupply of Neurologists compared to certain other docs, primarily due to Neuro not being as lucrative as the ROAD and surgical specialties. In addition, PCP's are generally not very comfortable for whatever reason in dealing w/ nervous system issues. Finally, there is a lot of "unknown" in neuropsychiatry so there will be lots of future potential here that upcoming neurologists can get themselves involved in (clinically, administratively, or via research). we already see this w/ some "new" subspecialties like pain, sleep, intraoperative monitoring, INR...and there may be more to come.

On the other hand, the Fee-for-Service system dampens Neuro compensation because the field is generally not very procedure-orientated. In addition, the recent elimination of CPT codes hurts private Neuro docs as well (although this is mitigated by the increase in E/M valuation). some Neuro folks may also qualify for the new 5% mental health bonus. Neuro guys can cope by training in EMG's as they are a procedure whose value has been made artificially high under FFS. Of course, EMG reimbursement may be cut in the future as CMS targets areas of waste (often they are done unnecessarily either by Neuro's or PCP's). I wouldn't blame the doc as much as the system valuing volume of procedural care. However, because the demand for Neuro is still there, you can find a job in a hosital, IPA group network, or Integrated Delivery System like Kaiser thanks to the demand for Neuro.

However, my guess is that FFS may eventually be abolished as it truly is the #1 problem w/ our health care system as it directly couples volume of often inefficient, noncoordinated, poor quality care to financial reimbursement. Despite its several flaws, the health care did have 2 major benefits: (a) a roadmap to significantly decreasing the uninsured & (b) developing a POSSIBLE roadmap to a suitable collection of FFS alternatives (ACO, P4P, Prometeus, IDS, whatever you wanna call it) via the CMInnovation. I think the latter issue should be at the back of every young physician. These new payment models all depend on bundled payments and quality metrics. A neurologist can be valuable to any organization under this payment model because he can give quality care (and develop the quality metrics in the many unknown arenas) and be cost effective (primarily through controlling diagnostic imaging)...thus leading to financial success for the organization and himself/herself.

Although I'm going to be an Endocrinologist, I was considering Neuro for a long time, and I think it has good long term prospects for the above reasons. I can't say you will be "banking in lots of $$$", but I don't think most peeps who enter Neuro expect that. (The exception to the previous statement being INR -- assuming we are still in the FFS system & the doc is willing to work his butt off).
 
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These new payment models all depend on bundled payments and quality metrics. A neurologist can be valuable to any organization under this payment model because he can give quality care (and develop the quality metrics in the many unknown arenas) and be cost effective (primarily through controlling diagnostic imaging)...thus leading to financial success for the organization and himself/herself.

"Bundling" services has been tried once already in the 90's with capitated payment arrangements to networks of specialty providers. Needless to say, it didn't work. Members of the capitated pools just tried to maximize their RVU's to get as big a share of the pool as possible, thereby decreasing the reimbursement per RVU.

I would be cautious about predicting sweeping changes in the mechanism of healthcare delivery. Restructuring a sizable percentage of the GDP is fraught with unintended consequences. Healthcare is always characterized as "consuming" a percentage of GDP. I think it should be looked at as "producing" that percentage of GDP. This is money that is directly recycled into the domestic economy. All those imaging studies are taken by technologists on machines serviced by technicians providing well paying, non offshore-able jobs. There are certainly inefficiencies in the system, but my point is that the healthcare economy is vast and is not something that can be changed without causing effects which are difficult to predict.

I also think that healthcare reform has passed its high water mark for the foreseeable future. The political landscape in congress will likely change after November and it may be a long time before major structural change at the national level comes to the fore again.
 
"Bundling" services has been tried once already in the 90's with capitated payment arrangements to networks of specialty providers. Needless to say, it didn't work. Members of the capitated pools just tried to maximize their RVU's to get as big a share of the pool as possible, thereby decreasing the reimbursement per RVU.

I would be cautious about predicting sweeping changes in the mechanism of healthcare delivery. Restructuring a sizable percentage of the GDP is fraught with unintended consequences. Healthcare is always characterized as "consuming" a percentage of GDP. I think it should be looked at as "producing" that percentage of GDP. This is money that is directly recycled into the domestic economy. All those imaging studies are taken by technologists on machines serviced by technicians providing well paying, non offshore-able jobs. There are certainly inefficiencies in the system, but my point is that the healthcare economy is vast and is not something that can be changed without causing effects which are difficult to predict.

I also think that healthcare reform has passed its high water mark for the foreseeable future. The political landscape in congress will likely change after November and it may be a long time before major structural change at the national level comes to the fore again.


Capitation is a little different than these newer models in that in its purest form, capitation places the risk all on the providers, who are a very risk-averse group in general. (Many who were more savvy actually did quite well under capitation). But these new schemes have risk-adjustment schemes and quality metrics engraved in them, making them more acceptable (tho some docs will still say it is capitation-in-hiding).

Perhaps the biggest thing going for these new models is that there are numerous cases of these FFS alternatives leading to higher quality AND less costly care: A place in Colorado, Mayo/CC, Kaiser, ?Intermountain, Geisinger are some of the more prominent examples. In addition, these were designed by MD's, so they have physician buy-in. I agree w/ you that totally revamping healthcare delivery is tricky, esp since designing these models on a national level is a huge challenge. However, they are growing, are supported under the new bill, and most of all...they (so far) have been proven to work. "Cost containment" is popular on both sides of the aisle (the difference is how to achieve it). But leaders across the poli spectrum realize the problems w/ the current Medicare-anchored FFS system, and if these new models work, they will be pushed through several years down the line (could be 10-15 yrs from now...but that will be soon enough for the young docs here).

There is a reason why those 20% cuts are always looming. They want to fix the SGR formula, but they don't know how. When they know how, the government can easily say you can either (a) operate under the new model OR (b) stay in FFS but we are going to finally come through w/ our 20% cuts threat.

I by no means am saying that this WILL happen or that it is even likely. However, I am saying that it could happen, and that if it does, Neuro is well positioned overall, just as it is kinda now.
 
"Bundling" services has been tried once already in the 90's with capitated payment arrangements to networks of specialty providers. Needless to say, it didn't work. Members of the capitated pools just tried to maximize their RVU's to get as big a share of the pool as possible, thereby decreasing the reimbursement per RVU.

I would be cautious about predicting sweeping changes in the mechanism of healthcare delivery. Restructuring a sizable percentage of the GDP is fraught with unintended consequences. Healthcare is always characterized as "consuming" a percentage of GDP. I think it should be looked at as "producing" that percentage of GDP. This is money that is directly recycled into the domestic economy. All those imaging studies are taken by technologists on machines serviced by technicians providing well paying, non offshore-able jobs. There are certainly inefficiencies in the system, but my point is that the healthcare economy is vast and is not something that can be changed without causing effects which are difficult to predict.

I also think that healthcare reform has passed its high water mark for the foreseeable future. The political landscape in congress will likely change after November and it may be a long time before major structural change at the national level comes to the fore again.

Whether you call it "consumption" or "production" is really irrelevant. The bottom line is that you can't have a certain sector of the economy eating up a substantial portion of the pie, and have it increase year by year. You're right in that it's better for the country that health care spending stays mostly at home, but it's entirely false that just because it stays at home, it can't hinder economic growth.
And that's the real issue at hand - the percentage of the economy that is pumped into healthcare. It doesn't matter if the mechanism of curbing costs comes from abolishing FFS or simple cost-cutting maneuvers by the federal government, it has to be done one way or another. Perhaps making sweeping judgments on how things will change should be made with prudence, but making the observation that the status quo can't be sustained and that there are no options other than to change really only requires some common sense.
 
Great thread evolution guys, and cheers from a foreign med student for all the information. The way I see it, interventional neurology will only really take off if evidence-based indications for intra-arterial therapies in ischaemic stroke or ICH are proven. Lots and lots of research going on in this arena: http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/resul...try3=&locn=&gndr=&rcv_s=&rcv_e=&lup_s=&lup_e=

If anyone is up to date on the literature, please do tell- have any published studies actually indicated better efficacy from IA tPA? This i feel is the key to neurologists getting a foothold in this area.

How about long term IA interventions? I heard many european centres were trialling stem cell replacement therapy. Any idea on how that is coming?
 
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