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Nephrology one of the most intellectual specialties?

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docmartin252

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Now bear with me since I'm just a lowly pre-med, but I have read some threads on this site and heard from others that Nephrology is one of the most intellectual fields in medicine. I was just curious as to why that is, so if anyone could shed some light on this idea it would be much appreciated.

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Nephrology is very intellectual as are many other medicine subspecialties such as Endocrine and Infectious Diseases. I don't think it's fair to categorize any particular specialty as "the most intellectual". In fact there are many intellectual people working in specialties not related to medicine at all! When you're in medical school you'll be able to sample many different specialties. Whatever sub specialty you choose you will be able to add your own flare to it through research and didactics during rounds.
 
I think people just say this because they find renal physiology to be incredibly complex and difficult to understand, myself included.

But as the above poster said, there are countless opportunities to be quite cerebral in internal medicine, both in general medicine and especially in certain subspecialties. I wouldn't say nephrologists are any more so though, as compared to cardiologists, ID docs, etc.

Part of what defines internal medicine as a specialty in itself is our tendency to value and be adept at thinking about the "zebra" diagnoses...those rare, complex, and difficult to diagnose ailments that are often overlooked or not even known by other physicians. This is a very satisfying and intellectually stimulating process, and is even more rewarding when you can give an answer (and treatment) to a patient who's been suffering for months or years with an undiagnosed illness. If you like the idea of this type of medicine, then the IM world is your oyster...you may like any number of specialties, and would be best advised to keep an open mind about them.
 
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Some do consider Nephrology to be one of the most intellectual specialties... and Dr House is a Nephrologist (and an ID specialist)

There are a number of reasons why...

A bit of history according to one of my Nephro attendings. Just as Internal Medicine came out of a combination of adult General Practice and Pathology... Nephro came out of a combination of medicine and Basic sciences, including inorganic and organic chem... a bunch of supergeeks.

While on the surface most of nephrology seems to be writing dialysis orders three times per week, there are plenty of things (which are based heavily on non-clincial science) to keep one busy. To name a few... complex acid-base disorders, complicated poisonings, hypertension.

Nephrologists really will sit down and work through chemistry reactions, determining osmolar gap, molecular weight and dialysablilty of substances, and a ton of other formulas. They can manage fluids and electrolytes in the molecular level, paying attention to all the differences between calcium gluconate and calcium phosphate, for example... Ive worked with a nephrologist who figured out that a patient must have been poisoned by two different unknown substances with different chemical properties.... etc etc... So, what they physicially do is painfully straightforward... but the action really is in their brains.

Many Zebras and diagnostic nightmares can be blamed on the kidneys... or at least found to involve them.

Also, you'll find that renal physio and patho might be the most complicated subjects in your first two years of med school.

So, basically, it can be consdered to be highly intellectual because it relys on very intellectual geeky things, while actually doing dialysis... dialysis.... and more dialysis. No glamorous surgeries, and not very many different treatment options...

And then theres interventional nephrology, which basically adds hands-on work with the venous access issues of dialyisis (AV fistulas, grafts, catheters).

Hope that helps
 
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OK, so what makes ID and heme/onc, two other specialties with this repute, "intellectual." Is it just zebras that they can pull out of no-where or bizarre presentations or what?
 
Uptodate was started by nephrologist...Think about that...:idea:
 
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OK, so what makes ID and heme/onc, two other specialties with this repute, "intellectual." Is it just zebras that they can pull out of no-where or bizarre presentations or what?

Just some quick points about these...Heme/onc is considered one of the super intellectual specialties because it is exceedingly complex, requires an outstanding knowledge of basic sciences/literature (read as: PhD is highly recommended), can affect every organ and is advancing at a ridiculous rate. Also, their trials are complicated and often results of ¨9 months prolonged survival¨are considered triumphs.

Regarding ID, this speciality requires that you be an outstanding IM doc before you enter fellowship. The rationale is, anything in the body (similar to onc) can get infected (or become malignant in the case of onc). Typically, in other fields, you sacrifice some component of your general knowledge to specialize given that you just don't see it in practice. In ID and heme/onc, you really have to consider everything, everytime, in your ddx.
 
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Just some quick points about these...Heme/onc is considered one of the super intellectual specialties because it is exceedingly complex, requires an outstanding knowledge of basic sciences/literature (read as: PhD is highly recommended), can affect every organ and is advancing at a ridiculous rate. Also, their trials are complicated and often results of ¨9 months prolonged survival¨are considered triumphs.

Regarding ID, this speciality requires that you be an outstanding IM doc before you enter fellowship. The rationale is, anything in the body (similar to onc) can get infected (or become malignant in the case of onc). Typically, in other fields, you sacrifice some component of your general knowledge to specialize given that you just don't see it in practice. In ID and heme/onc, you really have to consider everything, everytime, in your ddx.

True re: the ID specialists, however this is not the experience i've had with heme/onc attendings. From what i've seen as a resident, most tend to only want to focus on the cancer and are more than willing to farm out the other issues to consultants.
 
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To add to the Nephrology thing... many times the Nephrology gets to be the "Doctor's Doctor" Hypertension that cant be controlled by Medicine, or even Cardiology... goes to Nephrology. Difficult adrenal pathology... Nephrology. Half of ICU patients have Nephrology on board. Even heme-onc.... many of those patents get their beans knocked out, and get a nephrologist
 
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Thanks to everyone for the great responses, I think you guys nailed exactly what I was looking for. That being said, I didn't mean to diminish any of the great work that other specialties do intellectually or clinically. I've worked in a hospital for several years now and think I've nailed down the specialty that I would like to pursue based on my personality, but am willing to keep my mind open while in med school and especially while doing core rotations (well maybe all except psych.....kidding). But keep up the great posts guys, I didn't realize I would actually need a lot of organic knowledge as a physician in some specialties.
 
internal medicine as a whole is an intellectual field. what drove me to pursuing a career in medicine is it really emphasizes knowing the "why" to explain the "what" as oppose to vice versa. i find it an amazing opportunity every time i see an intriguing patient with symptoms and have to figure in my mind why they're present the way they do.

nephrology probably is viewed so intellectually probably due to having to explain in fair detail why the kidneys are functioning the way they do and the clinical abnormalities they're causing. for example, what's happening in the proximal tubule affects the loop of henle, which affects the distal collecting tubule which affects urine output. and it gets way crazier than that.

can't personally comment on heme/onc, even though many of my peers have absolutely fallen in love with it and profess it to be extremely intellectual.

personally, i'm in love with cards, which doesn't seem to have a reputation of being extremely intellectual, but i'm fascinated by the though process of how pathology affects each chamber's pressures, translating to the clinical symptoms.
 
Oncology is changing so quickly with biologics, targeted agents, and agents that use new mechanisms of actions (like mTOR inhibitors, TKIs, multi tyrosine kinase inhibitors, anti-angiogenesis agents, monoclonal antibodies, etc.) The list is huge and oncologists need to keep up with all that new data.
 
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Half of ICU patients have Nephrology on board. Even heme-onc.... many of those patents get their beans knocked out, and get a nephrologist

That means absolutely nothing. It just means they have renal failure. Starting dialysis is not rocket science.

As a cardiologist, I'm amazed at how little nephologists know. Just because the Cr bumps, doesn't mean you stop the Lasix.
 
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That means absolutely nothing. It just means they have renal failure. Starting dialysis is not rocket science.

As a cardiologist, I'm amazed at how little nephologists know. Just because the Cr bumps, doesn't mean you stop the Lasix.

I am intrigued. So Dr. House is a nephrologist or an infectious diseases specialist? I guess in the movie he often diagnoses a problem and the patient completely recovers. But do real nephrologists or id get to do something beyond the scope of general internal medicine where the patient completely discovers? Like diagnose a "zebra" and suddenly he's much better from some condition that was bothering him for years? Or do they basically work with patients who got aids or renal failure or some other disease where they might as well be dead? I think to me intellectual is someone who can completely cure a patient and figure out a problem that other drs cannot. So can they?
 
That means absolutely nothing. It just means they have renal failure. Starting dialysis is not rocket science.

As a cardiologist, I'm amazed at how little nephologists know. Just because the Cr bumps, doesn't mean you stop the Lasix.

Yeah, and I've seen cardiologists volume deplete their patients, causing contraction alkalosis, hypokalemia, and AKI because they insisted on giving huge doses of Lasix. And I've seen cardiologists pushing for unnecessary dialysis on patients still making urine, which, by the way, could lead to further worsening of renal function. Oh, not to mention cardiologists who push for dialysis on CKD stage 5 patients following cardiac caths, despite the fact that there is no evidence in the literature to show that dialysis following contrast administration is beneficial in those patients. Oh, and I would just love to see one of our cardiology fellows even try to master the mechanisms of ion transport in the renal tubules.
 
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An almost 6 year old necrobump to start a pissing match.

Classy.

Well, when some hotshot comes on here insulting my specialty, especially someone from cardiology, I feel compelled to defend it, no matter how old said hotshot's post is. We already get treated with very little respect by other residents and fellows, especially cardiologists. And yet we save not only their patients', but their a$$es more often than not. Like when you get an oliguric and hypotensive patient with a potassium of 7, bicarb of 7, and extremely low pH? Who do you think orders the CRRT in those cases? And also, we have helped diagnose conditions like lupus and ANCA-associated vasculitis in proteinuric patients through tests that we order. Do we ever get appreciation from anyone for helping them with their patients? No! So I really couldn't care less if anyone thinks my post is a less-than-classy necrobump.
 
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Well, when some hotshot comes on here insulting my specialty, especially someone from cardiology, I feel compelled to defend it, no matter how old said hotshot's post is. We already get treated with very little respect by other residents and fellows, especially cardiologists. And yet we save not only their patients', but their a$$es more often than not. Like when you get an oliguric and hypotensive patient with a potassium of 7, bicarb of 7, and extremely low pH? Who do you think orders the CRRT in those cases? Do we ever get appreciation from them for helping them save their patients? No! So I really couldn't care less if anyone thinks my post is a less-than-classy necrobump.

You sound mad.

Aren't lots of critical care docs ordering their own crrt these days?
 
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Fwiw. I get a long fine my my nephro colleagues

Great bunch of guys.
 
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You sound mad.

Aren't lots of critical care docs ordering their own crrt these days?
Even when nephro orders CRRT, it's not that hard. I ordered a couple on my last nephrology rotation as a resident and there were only a few parameters that actually needed to be picked, everything else was by protocol. Actually being the one taking care of the ICU patients and putting in all the lines, adjusting vent settings, and otherwise keeping them alive was much more difficult :p

P.S. how drunk is JDH?
 
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Even when nephro orders CRRT, it's not that hard. I ordered a couple on my last nephrology rotation as a resident and there were only a few parameters that actually needed to be picked, everything else was by protocol. Actually being the one taking care of the ICU patients and putting in all the lines, adjusting vent settings, and otherwise keeping them alive was much more difficult :p

P.S. how drunk is JDH?

not drunk enough ;)
 
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Even when nephro orders CRRT, it's not that hard. I ordered a couple on my last nephrology rotation as a resident and there were only a few parameters that actually needed to be picked, everything else was by protocol. Actually being the one taking care of the ICU patients and putting in all the lines, adjusting vent settings, and otherwise keeping them alive was much more difficult :p

P.S. how drunk is JDH?

At my hospital, HD has a protocol, but not CRRT. The serum concentrations of sodium, potassium, bicarbonate, and calcium change constantly with CRRT, because it extends over a long period of time, like 12-24 hours, so you frequently have to adjust the baths. Furthermore, you don't always order the same bath for a given concentration of a particular electrolyte. For instance, for a potassium of 4.8, in some cases you might order a 4 K bath, in others you might order a 3K bath. The 3K bath might be ordered in a patient who is more acidotic, has rhabdomyolysis, is hypotensive, etc.. For a patient who does not have any of these things, a 4K bath should work just fine. And if you order a 40 HCO3 bath on a patient with a serum bicarb of 7, you have to be careful not to overshoot or you will cause the patient to be alkalotic. And you have to tailor your ultrafiltration rate to the individual patient. Even if the patient looks very volume overloaded, that doesn't mean you can run the UF at 500 ml/hour if s/he is becoming tachycardic or hypotensive! You calculate your UF based on what they're getting in and what you think they can tolerate. Even the decision of when to do HD or CRRT isn't always clear cut. For instance, even if you have a patient who only put out 200 cc of urine yesterday and has a rising BUN/creatinine, that doesn't necessarily mean you need to do HD or CRRT at that point. You base the decision on how the patient looks, how unstable electrolytes like the potassium and bicarbonate are, and how likely they are to become unstable (i.e. sepsis, tumor lysis, etc...). As for intensivists doing CRRT, I've heard of that happening at other hospitals, but it certainly doesn't happen in mine.

And its not like HD or CRRT are the only things we do. There is a lot more to nephrology than that. We diagnose causes of acute kidney injury, which usually involves taking a detailed history and physical, and then deciding on appropriate tests, depending on the cases. A lot of times, it might be ATN, but sometimes we have to look for the zebras like anti-GBM antibody disease, membranous nephropathy, amyloidosis, etc... And based on results, we determine how to manage it. And for some of those conditions, the treatment is not always clear-cut. For instance, the RAVE trial showed that for ANCA-associated vasculitis, rituximab was non-inferior to cyclophosphamide. You have to determine the appropriate treatment based on the patient's characteristics. There are always clinical trials going on in nephrology. For instance, you know that even the appropriate target for BP control is controversial? There were two different trials, the SPRINT and ACCORD trials, which drew different conclusions as to appropriate target BP.

So yes, nephrology may not require the intellectual capacity of a rocket scientist, but it does require at least some thinking. And we do have to know our stuff.
 
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Yeah, and I've seen cardiologists volume deplete their patients, causing contraction alkalosis, hypokalemia, and AKI because they insisted on giving huge doses of Lasix. And I've seen cardiologists pushing for unnecessary dialysis on patients still making urine, which, by the way, could lead to further worsening of renal function. Oh, not to mention cardiologists who push for dialysis on CKD stage 5 patients following cardiac caths, despite the fact that there is no evidence in the literature to show that dialysis following contrast administration is beneficial in those patients. Oh, and I would just love to see one of our cardiology fellows even try to master the mechanisms of ion transport in the renal tubules.

And I've seen nephrologists tell me the patient is volume depleted when I had a swan in with high filling pressures. There are stupid people in every specialty and anecdotes mean very little. Also I call BS on the cardiologist who pushed for dialysis after a cath. New dialysis is something that gets reported on a national level and has a major impacts a cardiologist's outcomes. No cardiologist would push for dialysis prophylactically after a cath.

Realistically, very little in medicine is truly complex and that includes most of cardiology and mechanisms of ion transport in renal tubules.
 
We all know it's the heart. It's not my fault old ladies have little tolerance for diastolic dysfunction

You know, that thousand pack-year smoking history with 3 functioning alveoli might be contributing. I think it's the lung.
 
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You know, that thousand pack-year smoking history with 3 functioning alveoli might be contributing. I think it's the lung.

You'd think right? But despite that, the pfts are normal and so is imagining!!!

Smoking is a major risk factor for the. See. Ay. Dee. My friend. Cath her already and don't bother me any longer!!
 
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We all know it's the heart. It's not my fault old ladies have little tolerance for diastolic dysfunction

You know, that thousand pack-year smoking history with 3 functioning alveoli might be contributing. I think it's the lung.

You'd think right? But despite that, the pfts are normal and so is imagining!!!

Smoking is a major risk factor for the. See. Ay. Dee. My friend. Cath her already and don't bother me any longer!!

:whistle:
 
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Practicing nephrologist here
This discussion is pure fantasy
Nephrology is as intellectual as any other specialty in the whole medical profession.
Just very few specific things are complex to understand in Medicine; if Nephrology was sooo complex we would not have > 6000 practicing doctors here in America.
I do consider it even of less intellectual value now as my NPs handle my dialysis clinics and many CKD patients in the office while at the same time nephrology training positions are given away by desperate programs because of a lack of interest in our specialty.
 
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Practicing nephrologist here
This discussion is pure fantasy
Nephrology is as intellectual as any other specialty in the whole medical profession.
Just very few specific things are complex to understand in Medicine; if Nephrology was sooo complex we would not have > 6000 practicing doctors here in America.
I do consider it even of less intellectual value now as my NPs handle my dialysis clinics and many CKD patients in the office while at the same time nephrology training positions are given away by desperate programs because of a lack of interest in our specialty.

I'm confused. Which is fantasy? That the dyspnea is coming from the heart or the lungs? If from the lungs, then I agree. Complete fantasy in this thread.
 
You'd think right? But despite that, the pfts are normal and so is imagining!!!

Smoking is a major risk factor for the. See. Ay. Dee. My friend. Cath her already and don't bother me any longer!!

Oh don't you worry, we'd cath her even if she just had knee pain. In the end I think you and I both know we're going to call it multifactorial and leave it to her PCP...
 
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Do we ever get appreciation from anyone for helping them with their patients? No! So I really couldn't care less if anyone thinks my post is a less-than-classy necrobump.

You would do very poorly in the ER....
 
And I've seen nephrologists tell me the patient is volume depleted when I had a swan in with high filling pressures. There are stupid people in every specialty and anecdotes mean very little. Also I call BS on the cardiologist who pushed for dialysis after a cath. New dialysis is something that gets reported on a national level and has a major impacts a cardiologist's outcomes. No cardiologist would push for dialysis prophylactically after a cath.

Realistically, very little in medicine is truly complex and that includes most of cardiology and mechanisms of ion transport in renal tubules.

Fair enough. There are stupid people in both cardiology and nephrology. And by the way, good sir, if you had paid attention, you would have noted that my post was in response to the poster who generalized that "nephrologists know very little." Also, you will note that I did not go so far as to say "cardiologists know very little." But as for cardiologists who push for dialysis after a cath on CKD stage 5 patients, you can go ahead and call BS all you want. The fact is, I get called for $hit like that all the time.
 
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2/3 of this years nephrology fellows at my place signed up as hospitalist. The other one is going to work twice as hard and earn 20% lesser than the others...but he loves his tubules just so much


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Well, when some hotshot comes on here insulting my specialty, especially someone from cardiology, I feel compelled to defend it, no matter how old said hotshot's post is.


^^^^^ Is not going to let anyone, and I mean anyone, insult the intellectual capabilities and capacity of nephrologists even if it means going through hundreds of thousands of posts from the last 15 years to find someone who has the gall and the arrogance to not appreciate the brilliance and mere presence of nephrologists who put their reputations and self confidence on the line every day to save kidneys and correct electrolytes and figure out those crazy acid base disturbances (normal bicarb with a high anion gap anyone?) all across this great country.
 
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if there's one thing that SDN has taught me, it's that not all those endocrinologists or nephrologists are as easy-going as you might have thought

one endocrinologist comes to mind...

can we hug this out now?
 
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^^^^^ Is not going to let anyone, and I mean anyone, insult the intellectual capabilities and capacity of nephrologists even if it means going through hundreds of thousands of posts from the last 15 years to find someone who has the gall and the arrogance to not appreciate the brilliance and mere presence of nephrologists who put their reputations and self confidence on the line every day to save kidneys and correct electrolytes and figure out those crazy acid base disturbances (normal bicarb with a high anion gap anyone?) all across this great country.

Make nephrology great again!
 
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2/3 of this years nephrology fellows at my place signed up as hospitalist. The other one is going to work twice as hard and earn 20% lesser than the others...but he loves his tubules just so much

Why did they even do nephrology in the first place? It's not like the financial and job market calculus between nephrology and hospitalist medicine was markedly different 2 years ago when they made the decision to do a fellowship.
 
Why did they even do nephrology in the first place? It's not like the financial and job market calculus between nephrology and hospitalist medicine was markedly different 2 years ago when they made the decision to do a fellowship.

Dude, sometimes you just need to escape being a hospitalist. You need to escape general medicine clinic.

Then, sometimes you need to escape fellowship.
 
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