Navy Medicine - Skill Atrophy

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powwerz

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Hello,

I'm a second year in the 3 year HSPS scholarship.

I've been told by some active duty docs that skill atrophy isn't a huge deal with moonlighting and the retiree population, but I imagine that varies based off specialty and location.

I'm interested in primary medicine: Internal, Emergency and Family. Are any of these specialties at risk for serious skills atrophy during my time in the military?

I imagine that if I cannot moonlight, emergency medicine would be the most at risk of atrophy. I'm also very interested in practicing out in Japan; to are these locations very low acuity, or do you end up treating the local population as well to keep up skills?


Thanks all.

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I'm interested in primary medicine: Internal, Emergency and Family. Are any of these specialties at risk for serious skills atrophy during my time in the military?

Yes, there is a risk of skills atrophy, a very serious one.

For Medical school, we get it right via HPSP and USU. For GME, we get it semi-right through some decent training and away rotations (both medical school and GME are of course presided over by civilian accrediting bodies).

As an attending, this is where the true travesty begins. There's no impetus, no 'law' that requires you to maintain your skills. No one really cares, but you yourself. Every specialty is affected. You really have to moonlight. Those who care about being good doctors will do so.
 
Hello,

I'm a second year in the 3 year HSPS scholarship.

I've been told by some active duty docs that skill atrophy isn't a huge deal with moonlighting and the retiree population, but I imagine that varies based off specialty and location.

I'm interested in primary medicine: Internal, Emergency and Family. Are any of these specialties at risk for serious skills atrophy during my time in the military?

I imagine that if I cannot moonlight, emergency medicine would be the most at risk of atrophy. I'm also very interested in practicing out in Japan; to are these locations very low acuity, or do you end up treating the local population as well to keep up skills?


Thanks all.

It's a big problem for most specialties at most locations, particularly "procedural" specialties. I would call it straight up catastrophic for surgeons, anesthesiologists, interventional cards/radiology ... with some narrow exceptions like orthopedics and OB.

ERs at military medical centers are glorified urgent care clinics. There has been an effort to get civilian trauma into some of them. This year, Portsmouth started accepting civilian trauma. It's not as easy as just hanging out a flashing neon O P E N sign though. Time will tell how many cases, and how many complex cases, actually come through the door. I hope it's a flood, but my fear is that it'll go from zero to a trickle and stay a trickle. Before I left 3 months ago, we were starting to get some cases, so there's room for a little optimism there.

Primary care tends to be a little less at risk. Their patient volume is better, sort of. Their workdays are definitely full, but they still see fewer patients than their civilian counterparts, mainly because the Navy refuses to invest in the support staff required to make them efficient. (The ability for any branch of the government to hire permanent civilian staff is a very complex, difficult process that comes up against some hard ceilings set in law. Blame for this chronic problem belongs not so much with individual hospitals but rather with big Navy leadership and Congress.)

Overseas locations tend to be extremely low volume, which is further compounded by the fact that the active duty & dependent population there are screened to have no serious chronic health problems, and there are also few/no retirees there. We don't take care of locals as part of official duties - and there's a whole 'nother dimension of licensing and insurance and language that is just essentially insurmountable for individuals who would like to moonlight. A US doctor can't just go to another country and start working - and there are no shortcuts for US military doctors. Short version: overseas duty stations are exceptionally bad with regard to skill atrophy. (I have heard Guam can be OK.)

Some commands are making attempts to track critical "KSAs" or "knowledge skills and abilities" and come up with ways to maintain them through simulation or other means. For example, some things, like central line placement, can benefit from reps on a good simulator, to a degree. My personal opinion is that this entire scheme is mostly bull**** handwaving. There is no substitute for appropriate case volume, and it just isn't there. Tracking KSAs might help define and bring attention to the problem, but solutions are tougher.


I'm a little bit of an extreme example. I'm an anesthesiologist with cardiothoracic fellowship training. About 6 months after I got back from fellowship, the cardiac surgery program closed. For a while the Navy let me do some TAD work at a VA hospital 90 minutes away. By "let" I mean they let me make contact with the VA, let me talk the VA into allowing me to come work for free for them, let me write the memorandum of understanding, let me push it through legal on the Navy side and the VA side, let me jump through the credentialing hoops, let me schedule the days there, and let me leave my home and live in a hotel for a few days or a week at a time to work there. (The Navy did pay for the hotel and my to/from mileage.)

And this is pretty typical - for all the words the Navy flag medical leadership says about being concerned with skill atrophy, and establishing ERSAs (external resource sharing agreements) with civilian hospitals to get our staff there to work, they're just words they've been saying for 10-15+ years with no real progress. Just PowerPoints and meetings with green and yellow and red boxes that result in action officers tracking "KSAs" and the like. I know some of them are working hard and trying hard to address the issue. In the end though, I have to judge them harshly by their simple, stark, abject failure. You can be mad about their failure ... or you can just accept it for what it is, and resolve to solve the problem for yourself.

I returned from my final Navy deployment in June 2020, after 10 months overseas, during which I did exactly zero cases. Between August 2020 and May 2022 when I retired from the Navy, I burned about 120 days of accumulated leave, and retired with a leave balance of 0. I used all of this leave ... all of it ... to moonlight at a local civilian hospital doing a mix of non-cardiac surgeries, and at a university hospital several states away to do cardiac surgeries. It worked out to about 20 full M-F weeks of working elsewhere. One week per month for almost two years. I also worked nearly every free weekend covering call at a local civilian hospital, and I also worked locally on nearly every post-call day. And during that time, I did 3-4x as many cases in my moonlighting work as I did on active duty. 100% of my cardiac case numbers, 90%+ of my thoracic case numbers. And more subjectively, typically far sicker and more complex patients.

On the plus side, beyond earning an extra $150-200K/year moonlighting, I retired with a respectable (though not great) case load and comfortably current skills. I had no trouble getting hired and then credentialed with my post-Navy private practice group, and I was able to easily step into a busy and complex case load without any strain or problems. On the down side, I spent all my vacation time working for about two years. This is not a great way for a human to live.

In short, skill atrophy is an enormous problem and there aren't at present good solutions besides working outside the Navy.

In full disclosure, there are other people who don't fully agree with my dire assessment. A lot of people in my own specialty don't moonlight at all - and when they leave the Navy, they don't have any trouble finding work or being successful. As a subspecialist I'm a little bit of an outlier in what I need to stay current. YMMV - there's a wide range of experiences that individuals have.
 
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It's a big problem for most specialties at most locations, particularly "procedural" specialties. I would call it straight up catastrophic for surgeons, anesthesiologists, interventional cards/radiology ... with some narrow exceptions like orthopedics and OB.

ERs at military medical centers are glorified urgent care clinics. There has been an effort to get civilian trauma into some of them. This year, Portsmouth started accepting civilian trauma. It's not as easy as just hanging out a flashing neon O P E N sign though. Time will tell how many cases, and how many complex cases, actually come through the door. I hope it's a flood, but my fear is that it'll go from zero to a trickle and stay a trickle. Before I left 3 months ago, we were starting to get some cases, so there's room for a little optimism there.

No way is any MTF going to be a serious trauma center (maybe BAMC, b/c it already is). You can't have a trauma center if you don't have the OR/Anes/SICU to support. Somebody comes in with a knife in his chest, how can you be a trauma center if you don't have CT surgery? And the MTFs are too hard to get to. The ambulance companies know this, they'll gladly take their patients to different hospitals (they already do take Tricare beneficiaries to other hospitals, non-trauma, and said hospitals love to keep them and bill tricare! This is partly why our MTFs are so empty.)
 
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I'm a staff pathologist at one of the largest Army MTFs. A typical sign out day for me at the MTF is about 10-15 cases. When I moonlight I do around 100 cases per day. It's like night and day.
 
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The above was a problem 20 years ago, and it sounds like it’s even worse now.
I didn’t care because I was planning a civilian anesthesia fellowship after I completed my service obligation. That worked fine for me, as did getting out around 1 most days and living on a golf course.
 
It’s not just skill atrophy. It’s effort atrophy. See 10% of the normal workload for long enough and that becomes the normal workload. So, then you’re stuck convincing yourself that you wanted to stick around as a forever O6 watching other people do that 10% of the work.
 
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It’s not just skill atrophy. It’s effort atrophy. See 10% of the normal workload for long enough and that becomes the normal workload. So, then you’re stuck convincing yourself that you wanted to stick around as a forever O6 watching other people do that 10% of the work.
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Over my time in the Navy it got harder, and harder, and harder to maintain a good clinical load. Just in the span of ~2014 to 2022 the change was dramatic. The complex cases just dwindled away.

Moonlighting (aka parole) is important. I really hope they make good on their plans to get physicians out into civilian hospitals via resource sharing agreements and other partnerships, but I don't think physicians should wait or count on that to happen.
 
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Thanks all for the information, it's very informative.

As a follow up, what specialties in the Navy would you say are least likely to experience skills atrophy?

I imagine sports medicine or ortho sees a lot of cases. I hope internal med or family also would see a lot of cases.
 
Ortho sports has likely the best volume, case complexity and patient population IN the military. You can’t find a more ideal practice…at least not what I’ve seen. More ancillary staff, reliable techs and corpsman would be nice but we manage. I’m solidly booked months out and have a nice mix of standard sports stuff plus complex multi lig trauma, open should stability, etc.

But not all Ortho sub specialties have this. Trauma is basic for most part, spine is low volume and complexity, tumor is hit or miss. Hand stays busy and is ideal aside from replants and big vascular/neuro cases. Foot and ankle is fairly good.

Primary care is expected to see a lot but complexity is low due to patient population.
 
to get physicians out into civilian hospitals via resource sharing agreements and other partnerships
I still don't understand how this is legal. American tax dollars, are going to fund an active duty CT surgeon, who's supposed to be working for the active duty military, to go instead work at UNC or Duke, at no cost to them? Great for the surgeon no doubt, but a complete waste of money for the DoD. Smells like a 60 Minutes piece.
 
I still don't understand how this is legal. American tax dollars, are going to fund an active duty CT surgeon, who's supposed to be working for the active duty military, to go instead work at UNC or Duke, at no cost to them? Great for the surgeon no doubt, but a complete waste of money for the DoD. Smells like a 60 Minutes piece.
:shrug: I'm very familiar with that particular case, because I tried and failed to get a certain CT anesthesiologist included in the package deal to go TAD to Duke for months at a time also. :) There's a lot of leeway for doing things that are judged to be "in the best interest of the Navy" ... and it's certainly not in the Navy's best interest to have CT surgeons rotting away, not operating at a MTF, rusting away the skills the Navy paid for them to go get. Skills that might be essential at a Role 3 overseas if someone needed a thoracic surgeon. Our MTF simply did not have enough patients in our catchment area, even with unrealistic 100% recapture, to maintain a safe cardiac surgery program. You have to realize we straight up closed the CT surgery program at that MTF and there was nothing for them to do, unless you wanted them to slide back into a general surgeon role. It was an odd but good outcome for a very bad situation.

I was truly hung out to dry by the Navy, as a newly fellowship trained CT anesthesiologist, who came back to the mothership to get the rug pulled out from under me a few months later. I'd have gladly gone anywhere, paid or unpaid, on Navy time to maintain a CT case load. Instead, I had to scratch and claw for my last few years on active duty to get cases in evenings, on weekends, on postcall days, and on leave. As I mentioned upthread, for two years I spent all of my leave working, just to maintain a basic level of competency. That was a grind, it got old, it was F'd up.


It'd be like the Navy saying, Uh-oh we don't have enough aircraft for our C130 pilots to fly enough training missions to stay current. Well, let's just send them over to UPS to fly cargo flights moving Amazon packages. They'll get hours and will stay current and we won't have to pay for fuel or aircraft, win for us!

When you think about it from the perspective of readiness that costs money, and not from the perspective of efficiency in delivery of healthcare, it makes some sense.

Of course ... if either of those situations are the reality, then the correct answer is to make those CT surgeons and imaginary C130 pilots reservists. And I and more than a few other people have long argued that this is exactly what we should do with the bulk of the active duty medical corps these days: quit rearranging deck chairs, make almost everyone reservists, roll the active MTFs into the VA, and quit pretending we can keep half-assing this slow decline into mediocrity as we lose patients and lose cases.


On the shadier side of skill maintenance ...

I knew people at another MTF who'd just do a morning phone muster while driving to their moonlighting gig to confirm they weren't needed that day and check an admin box. Technically they were just being released early on liberty, which is always the prerogative of the immediate chain of command. Illegal? No. Was working a paid civilian job during normal Navy working hours against the overall spirit of the broader Navy rules and most MTF ODE instructions? Probably. Better for the people involved? Definitely. Better for the Navy? Definitely. Better for those individuals' future combat casualty patients? Oh hell yes definitely.

I've got no guilt and cast no shade for anyone who does the right thing for the Navy and for patients, even if a literal reading of the rules prohibit it.
 
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