N.P vs MD/DO ?

[Dr. Pickle]

Hey,

Wasn't sure if this has been posted or not. I am a OMSII and was wondering what MD/DOs do that N.P.s can't/ Because from their websites it seems like they have a nearly identical scope of practice. Also I was told that a bill just passed, where N.P.s in CA will be able to have their own practice/clinic w/o physician correspondance.

I don't have anything against N.P.s I just want to know more about them.

any insight?

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[J ROD]

They are now called "doctors" too!!

 

[Jumpin JAK STAT]

Sort of depends on the specialty, I think. For example, I don't know of too many NPs that do lots of open heart surgery. But there's certainly plenty of overlap.

One thing MDs and DOs CAN do is practice without learning all about "nursing theory"...

 

[AndyEmmDee]

They are now called "doctors" too!!

Actually, I don't believe that's true for *all* NP's...only those with a DNP degree (Doctor of Nursing Practice).

Someone correct me on this if I'm wrong but, to be just a "Nurse Practitioner" I believe requires something equal to a Master's-level degree

 

[J ROD]

Actually, I don't believe that's true for *all* NP's...only those with a DNP degree (Doctor of Nursing Practice).

Someone correct me on this if I'm wrong but, to be just a "Nurse Practitioner" I believe requires something equal to a Master's-level degree

Most just have the Master as of now, but soon I hear they are making the DNP the end-degree like what pharmacy did with the BS switch to the PharmD. So, they will "doctors" now too. Soon, everyone will be a doctor,

 

[dude1344]

If I'm correct, don't many states prohibit anyone other than MDs/DOs from calling themselves "doctor" in a clinical setting?

 

[AndyEmmDee]

If I'm correct, don't many states prohibit anyone other than MDs/DOs from calling themselves "doctor" in a clinical setting?

That's news to me...can anyone validate that?

 

[womp]

If I'm correct, don't many states prohibit anyone other than MDs/DOs from calling themselves "doctor" in a clinical setting?

I don't think so. However, many hospitals and groups don't allow other clinicians (that are not physicians, dentists and podiatrists) to use the doctor title in the clinical setting.

Also most states prohibit advertising yourself as a doctor without a medical license. So as long as you state "I'm Dr. Smith, a nurse practitioner," you would be okay legally, but high on the douchebaggery scale.

 

[Gabby]

That's news to me...can anyone validate that?

I believe it's true. You're not allowed to call yourself "doctor" in a clinical setting (to patients) unless you're a medical doctor.

 

[turkeyjerky]

I don't think so. However, many hospitals and groups don't allow other clinicians (that are not physicians, dentists and podiatrists) to use the doctor title in the clinical setting.

Also most states prohibit advertising yourself as a doctor without a medical license. So as long as you state "I'm Dr. Smith, a nurse practitioner," you would be okay legally, but high on the douchebaggery scale.

Did someone ask if there's a doctor in the house?

 

[J ROD]

Did someone ask if there's a doctor in the house?

She is a little different since she has a PhD. Still funny!!

 

[badasshairday]

Did someone ask if there's a doctor in the house?

Wow...... Just wow....

 

[Black Surgeon]

Did someone ask if there's a doctor in the house?

Haha, they promise "A relaxing atmosphere with soft lighting, music, and seasonal refreshments." Something about that sounds pretty funny.

 

[reedman]

Let the public flock to nurse practitioners for the next few years, maybe people will learn the hard way. There is a reason some PAs and NPs end up going to med school; they just don't know enough to provide comprehensive and definitive care, and they know it. There are going to be terrible outcomes.

Just wait until the lawyers get a hold of this fresh meat after these new "primary care doctors" make mistake after mistake with no sound reasoning or scientific understanding to back up their thinking. Then there will be a whole new breed of physician that is making a living testifying in court as an expert witness.

 

[bad virus]

90% of the above quotes represent the epitome of douchebaggery. Have some decency guys. There is no reason at all to just go and take a question about the scope of practice of NP's and turn it into circle jerk.

Just answer the question and let it be, no need to diss on other types of practitioners.

By the way, the best primary care I have ever recieved was by an NP. She is the only one I ever go to now.

 

[Lokhtar]

Most just have the Master as of now, but soon I hear they are making the DNP the end-degree like what pharmacy did with the BS switch to the PharmD. So, they will "doctors" now too. Soon, everyone will be a doctor,

Ironically, a practice where physicians were at the forefront. In many countries, a medical degree is not a doctorate degree, but a bachelor's degree (residency might be a 'masters', in India, you can get a M.S in Surgery for example, after your MBBS - MD equivalent, stands for Bachelor of Medicine, Bachelor of Surgery). It was changed to a 'doctoral' degree, which was actually how done in the old Scottish universities.

Call me old fashioned, but to me, a 'doctorate' implies having contributed something new to the field. In science, it would mean having wrote a thesis and defended it.

However, that is an academic doctorate, and now we have 'professional' doctorates, which means having a terminal degree in your profession. So a DNP would make sense within nursing. Like PharmD. Or MD. Or DScPA (doctor of science in physician assistant).

 

[J ROD]

Ironically, a practice where physicians were at the forefront. In many countries, a medical degree is not a doctorate degree, but a bachelor's degree (residency might be a 'masters', in India, you can get a M.S in Surgery for example, after your MBBS - MD equivalent, stands for Bachelor of Medicine, Bachelor of Surgery). It was changed to a 'doctoral' degree, which was actually how done in the old Scottish universities.

Call me old fashioned, but to me, a 'doctorate' implies having contributed something new to the field. In science, it would mean having wrote a thesis and defended it.

However, that is an academic doctorate, and now we have 'professional' doctorates, which means having a terminal degree in your profession. So a DNP would make sense within nursing. Like PharmD. Or MD. Or DScPA (doctor of science in physician assistant).

My main point is that some DNP will get the big head and think they are MD/DO. I have already heard them talking on rotations how they think they are no different. I'm sorry but they dont have the training in most circumstances. Basic FM I could see but some of the other areas I have been in not so much....

I just see potential problems happening in the drive to reduce healthcare with putting folks in places they should not be.

Btw, I used to go to a PA over a MD since I thought he was better in FM. So, I am not just MD promoting.....I just think MD/DO are the best and most trained professionals in the healthcare arena. I get sick of all the other professions trying to act like they are equal or even better. On average, they are not...

 

[Lokhtar]

Yea, I don't necessarily disagree there - practice encroachment is a separate issue.

 

[Taurus]

Just read my signature to learn more about the differences between DNP's and physicians. Read also what the DNP's are doing to try to obfuscate the public about the differences.

 

[Lokhtar]

If nurses had to pass all the steps of the USMLE exam in order to get the same practice rights as doctors, what do you think the pass rate would be?

 

[J ROD]

If nurses had to pass all the steps of the USMLE exam in order to get the same practice rights as doctors, what do you think the pass rate would be?

not great!!

 

[AlexMorph]

If nurses had to pass all the steps of the USMLE exam in order to get the same practice rights as doctors, what do you think the pass rate would be?

Step 1 would absolutely destroy most of them, they just never learn that stuff anywhere

 

[badasshairday]

.

 

[alphaholic06]

http://www.doctorkara.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=l0RDKkX++bg=&tabid=76

 

[Nikki2002]

Did someone ask if there's a doctor in the house?

wow maybe i'll just go see a real live doctor face to face. you get what you pay for people

 

[Nikki2002]

http://www.doctorkara.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=l0RDKkX++bg=&tabid=76

oh that's just fantastic. Next: how to diagnose STDs. You'll learn: "is this a watch and wait STD? Or is it an OMG i need to see my online doc now! kind of STD

 

[alphaholic06]

IHC will not allow me to sign con...ping resolve this matter.[/QUOTE] :rolleyes:

 

[J1515]

"Update: IHC will not allow me to sign contracts with them because I do not have an oncall physician associated with my clinic. .... Both companies have turned me down as a provider simply because I am not a physician.... I simply cannot sign contracts with them because of their INTERNAL policies. "

No, you simply cannot sign contracts with them because YOU'RE NOT A PHYSICIAN.

 

[J1515]

Haha, they promise "A relaxing atmosphere with soft lighting, music, and seasonal refreshments." Something about that sounds pretty funny.

You missed my favorite part of the website:

"Why should a medical office feel uninviting and "sterile"?"

Yes. Why in the world would you want the examining room or the office to be a "sterile" environment

I recommend reading the entire website thoroughly for a good laugh. Quite entertaining.

 

[badasshairday]

.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

What a wackjob.

 

[zenman]

Haha, they promise "A relaxing atmosphere with soft lighting, music, and seasonal refreshments." Something about that sounds pretty funny.

What's not funny is that some well-known medical institutions think it's pretty important.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Compe...nments+attract+patients,+reduce...-a090317128

 

[fab4fan]

Did someone ask if there's a doctor in the house?

DoctorKara needs a proofreader for her stinking web ad. Holy Toledo! That's embarrassing!

 

[fab4fan]

Haha, they promise "A relaxing atmosphere with soft lighting, music, and seasonal refreshments." Something about that sounds pretty funny.

When I go for a medical appt., I want to be seen in a professional env., not some skeevy night-club. "Ick factor" is high here.

 

[core0]

When I go for a medical appt., I want to be seen in a professional env., not some skeevy night-club. "Ick factor" is high here.

needs more stripper poles

 

[MexicanDr]

Do you guys think PAs would do better in any of the USMLE steps than NPs?

For Med Students, would you rather be around PAs or NPs?

 

[healthpsych818]

If I'm correct, don't many states prohibit anyone other than MDs/DOs from calling themselves "doctor" in a clinical setting?

Which is ridiculous. The term doctor was around before the M.D. or D.O. degrees.

 

[healthpsych818]

Let the public flock to nurse practitioners for the next few years, maybe people will learn the hard way. There is a reason some PAs and NPs end up going to med school; they just don't know enough to provide comprehensive and definitive care, and they know it. There are going to be terrible outcomes.

Just wait until the lawyers get a hold of this fresh meat after these new "primary care doctors" make mistake after mistake with no sound reasoning or scientific understanding to back up their thinking. Then there will be a whole new breed of physician that is making a living testifying in court as an expert witness.

I believe NPs have been providing care for around 50 years, and their outcomes are pretty good.

 

[healthpsych818]

My main point is that some DNP will get the big head and think they are MD/DO. I have already heard them talking on rotations how they think they are no different. I'm sorry but they dont have the training in most circumstances. Basic FM I could see but some of the other areas I have been in not so much....

I just see potential problems happening in the drive to reduce healthcare with putting folks in places they should not be.

Btw, I used to go to a PA over a MD since I thought he was better in FM. So, I am not just MD promoting.....I just think MD/DO are the best and most trained professionals in the healthcare arena. I get sick of all the other professions trying to act like they are equal or even better. On average, they are not...

And other professions, such as psychology, are also tired of physicians behaving as if that degree and training qualifies them to do anything, like make diagnoses and other judgments about psychological disorder.

 

[Dwindlin]

Which is ridiculous. The term doctor was around before the M.D. or D.O. degrees.

Everyone knows the term "doctor" was around well before M.D./D.O. The fact of the matter is in today's society if you are referred to as "doctor" IN A CLINICAL environment it carries a certain meaning outside of the degree. Would I expect to be called doctor anywhere else? Of course not. Just as I would use appropriate titles when addressing others in their professional settings.

 

[pianoman511]

.

 

[pianoman511]

And other professions, such as psychology, are also tired of physicians behaving as if that degree and training qualifies them to do anything, like make diagnoses and other judgments about psychological disorder.

Like psychiatrists....

 

[pianoman511]

I believe NPs have been providing care for around 50 years, and their outcomes are pretty good.

Yet in most states practice under physician supervision (definitely in the early days), so how does that affect outcome data ? Also, a point I have made in the past, in group practices most mid-level providers get the "cake" patients, i.e. i have a sore throat, rather than the more complex cases.

 

[Taurus]

If nurses had to pass all the steps of the USMLE exam in order to get the same practice rights as doctors, what do you think the pass rate would be?

Abysmal to say the least.

The NP's lobbied the NBME successfully to allow the DNP's to take a modified Step 3. Even though the nursing organizations were able to cherry pick the questions and lowered the minimum to pass, only 50% of the DNP's from Columbia University (one of the best DNP programs in the country) could pass.

So can you imagine what the pass rate would be if the DNP's had to take same USMLE tests as the physicians and under the same timeline? Can you also imagine how a DNP who received her training online from University of Phoenix would do? Maybe 5% of all DNP's could pass all three steps and I'm probably overestimating it. This is something that the public needs to know and understand.

 

[LadyWolverine]

Do you guys think PAs would do better in any of the USMLE steps than NPs?

Why don't you try to gauge this for yourself? Compare practice PANCE questions to practice USMLE Step 1 and 2 questions. I guarantee that you will notice a difference.

 

[MexicanDr]

Why don't you try to gauge this for yourself? Compare practice PANCE questions to practice USMLE Step 1 and 2 questions. I guarantee that you will notice a difference.

Chill Dude, it was just a question. I am barely a premed student, no reason to combust...

 

[Dwindlin]

Chill Dude, it was just a question. I am barely a premed student, no reason to combust...

I fail to see how you view this as over the top.

 

[deleted6669]

Why don't you try to gauge this for yourself? Compare practice PANCE questions to practice USMLE Step 1 and 2 questions. I guarantee that you will notice a difference.

actually pance is based on step 2 and step 3 so that would be a better comparison.
very few pa's/np's would pass step 1 as we don't do the basic medical sciences anywhere close to the depth that the md/do folks do.
many pa's use step 2/3 study guides as well as fp board study guides for pance.
interestingly enough prior to 1997 pa's had to pass 3 practicals(basically step 2 clinical exam) to get certified in addition to 3 written exams(primary care, surgery, general medical knowledge).
the practicals were dropped in 1997 to make pa boards "more like md/do boards". shortly thereafter the usmle/comlex added their practical exam. I for one an all for making pa's do the clinical exam again to get credentialed initially.

 

[jbar]

Doing the clinical exam doesn't impress me much. My understanding is that step 2 CS is basically a test of if you speak english and have been awake in medical school. Doesn't it have like a 97% pass rate for US grads? I just feel like if people have problems clinically if will come out on the wards, the written tests are to check the knowledge base.

 

[group_theory]

Which is ridiculous. The term doctor was around before the M.D. or D.O. degrees.

True although not in the way you were taught. The MD degree first appeared in 1755.

The term "doctor" first appeared around 1300 and were in reference to "church father" from the old french word "doctour"

In reference to being the holder of the highest academic degree, the first time in written history it showed up is around 1375. In reference to a medical professional, it was around 1377 (but wasn't in common usage until 16th century)

The term doctor in reference to a medical professional have been around in common usage for at least 4 centuries (and it's usage have been around as long as the "doctor" degree itself)


Check out the Oxford English Dictionary, a great source of modern english etymology