MY FIRST JOB: A retrospective blog

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awesome thread. im a predent and have recently been freaking out about how i will manage a 350K debt and if im making the right decision. I've shadowed in some offices and I have been able to see the different variation based on where you go. Some dentists just don't care, while others are amazing. This thread definitely makes me feel better and that I'm making the right decision.


That is very very true.

Glad to hear my regular rants are of any help to the lost souls out there :)

I hope I did not mistakenly lull you into thinking that it's ok to be in $350,000 worth of student loans ... or did I ? That would be the wrong message to take away form anything I said here.

Is a $350k student loan manageable for a general dentist, yes. Should you be comfortable with it ? Not really. Unless you are pretty sure dentistry is what you want to do for a long long time to come and have done your due diligence, please take all the time you need in making your final decision. Don't get me wrong, I have a little over $250k in my bucket ($400,000 once you factor in interest), and would do it all over again ... But I've done dentistry before -in another life- hence had absolutely no doubts.

My made-up rule is that your debt coming out of school should never exceed a year's income at the peak end of your career. I'd like to think that I'll be netting $500k-$600k 30 years from now (adjusted for inflation) before I slow down.

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I certainly am hoping to not even see a smidge of my 350k by the time I'm 30 years out. Although, I also want to live/practice in CA so I'll probably die with my student loans.
 
Hey Nile,

I will have to say you have a unique way of presenting yourself. It's evident that you like what you do. I wish I could say the same, but I'm working on getting there. I'm one of the lost soul you mentioned earlier. I am a business grad. Is not something that I will like to pursuit at this moment. So, I'm looking at the different medical profession such as MD, Pharm, and now dental. I was glad an surprise to find this thread which gives both good experience and bad one. Many bloggers tend to express their bad ones.

Thanks for your tips, I definitely appreciate them!

I'll look foward to reading more... You should write a book on your experiences.
 
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Hello guys,

I am a FTD and deciding between UCLa and UTHSCSA.
Both schools are great...
But some people have been telling me UCLA has a better name and would help me getting jobs as an associate once I graduate, especially west coast area...

Do you guys agree??? Because I never had patients asking what school I went to back in my home country. But I don't know about clinics.. Would it make any difference?

I really enjoyed UT and tuition is cheaper....so I am having lots of doubts
 
That is very very true.

Glad to hear my regular rants are of any help to the lost souls out there :)

I hope I did not mistakenly lull you into thinking that it's ok to be in $350,000 worth of student loans ... or did I ? That would be the wrong message to take away form anything I said here.

Is a $350k student loan manageable for a general dentist, yes. Should you be comfortable with it ? Not really. Unless you are pretty sure dentistry is what you want to do for a long long time to come and have done your due diligence, please take all the time you need in making your final decision. Don't get me wrong, I have a little over $250k in my bucket ($400,000 once you factor in interest), and would do it all over again ... But I've done dentistry before -in another life- hence had absolutely no doubts.

My made-up rule is that your debt coming out of school should never exceed a year's income at the peak end of your career. I'd like to think that I'll be netting $500k-$600k 30 years from now (adjusted for inflation) before I slow down.
School loans are a good debt, and someone like me would argue that it's the one of your least concerns throughout your career. The default rate on a dental school loan is rare, even if you work part-time.
 
Bump! Gotta bump this thread. Seriously one of the most helpful and insightful threads that I've read on here. Thought I would bump to give it some more views.
Thanks for all of the info NileBDS. I hope things are going well, and I truly look forward to hearing more when you get the time. Thanks again!
 
Bump! Gotta bump this thread. Seriously one of the most helpful and insightful threads that I've read on here. Thought I would bump to give it some more views.
Thanks for all of the info NileBDS. I hope things are going well, and I truly look forward to hearing more when you get the time. Thanks again!


Thanks buddy and thank you everyone for your support and for the good feedback I've been receiving about this blog. I'm glad it is of benefit to anyone out there.

I was just thinking last weekend that I need to update this thread soon. Time for my 6 month post. Hopefully this weekend.
 
Hi Niles,

Thanks for taking the time in sharing with us your experience. I look forward to your 6 month update.

I graduated from UCSF recently and will be having my first associate interview in the Bay Area next week. Looking forward to the interview.

Keep us posted on your progess!
 

New DDS on the Block: Private Practice Blogumentary 4




It’s snowing like crazy outside … wohoo … snow day!


I’m happy to be back posting on this blog for everyone. Again, thanks for all the very supportive and encouraging pms I’ve received so far. I really like the feedback. Feel free to chime in on other topics you may like to hear about if you don’t see them here.

So let’s see … 7 months have gone by and I’m still standing Still going strong and feeling good.


Most of my loans have now come into repayment, so that’s probably most of what I’m concerned about at the time. Maybe concerned is not the right word … planning for I guess?


So my situation is as follows; I have $250,000 in Stafford/grad plus dental school loans, $25,000 in private loans and $10,000 in credit card debt, all which I plan on paying off in 10 years. My strategy here is slowly but surely. It’s really nice to have the option of either switching to a 25 year schedule repayment if you need to or making interest-only payments at first while slowly switching to principal and interest. The main problem with the 25 year schedule is the amount of interest you end up racking up by dragging out your re-payment. It’s pretty significant. On my loans for instance, if I decide to stretch them out to 25 years versus 10 years, I’m paying 3 times as much interest on the life of the loans (which makes sense, but hits you in the face lick a sack of bricks when you see the actual numbers).

10 year repayment = $105,000 interest paid. 25 year repayment = $350,000 paid … interest alone!

My payments run roughly $3,000/month (on the 10 year schedule) for both dental school and private loans. I plan on knocking off my credit card debt in a few months, so am really not losing any sleep over them. With highest interest rates of all my debt, that is probably the prudent thing to do.
Note: As a new dentist you can expect to make roughly $10,000 per month ($7,000 after taxes), so you do your math accordingly.

On top of that, I’m saving up for my wedding this summer. Now that’s something that will put a strain on my finances. My student loans alone are so far pretty manageable, but once you throw in a wedding/mortgage/paying for kids, I can see how it can get tricky. Still not tossing and turning at night over anything though … it’s assuring to know that as my bills get bigger, so will my paycheck and income. I’m not always going to be an associate. As long as I live within my very comfortable means and not go bonkers until I pay my loans off, I will be fine. What’s wrong with that?

A recurring gut-feeling I get is, what am I doing here? Why am I still an associate? Why not just go out on my own, and get things rolling? It will happen sooner or later, so why not sooner? There is so much money (and I know, responsibility and headache) to be made as an owner. I’m here, working my back off for this owner, building goodwill for his practice, growing his patients and one day I will probably just pick up and leave to start my own thing. It’s the sort of gut feeling I got when I signed my car lease, when I sent in my deposit in to dental school, when I submit my MATCH rank list for my GPR … I was thinking, are you sure you want to do this? I tend to doubt myself sometimes like that, which is healthy.

Perhaps another incentive I have for going out on my own is, the fact that I need more toys! My current office does not have an endo microscope (which I would love), no intraoral camera, not even electronic records. It’s a pretty bare bone bread and butter practice. The guaranteed monthly salary is hard to turn away, but my thinking is if they can pay me this much on my current production, then I should be able to pay myself a whole lot more on my own, PLUS I get to do things on a whole new level. I think I can easily up my current production, once I have some real toys.

Having given it some thought, and against most common sense, I’ve decided I still want to spend more time as an associate. It may be laziness (which terrifies me, the thought that I may be getting too comfortable working on salary as an associate and possibly lose track of my own vision of how I want things done) … OR … it may be that I just am not ready to go out on my own. Buying your own practice takes a lot of preparation and research obviously, but financially, can I really afford to do that now? Can I afford not to? That’s what I really do not know yet … I’m not going to rush myself into answering that question just yet, but I think if Obama starts to implement new small business incentives or tax breaks or whatever, that may get me to jump in the pool. Until then, there’s no rush. For now …


In keeping my options open, I recently entertained an interview invitation from a broker I had worked with during my residency about a great partnership/ownership opportunity outside New Haven. It starts as a regular associateship, and slowly progresses into partnership and finally buying one of the two offices this practice currently owns. Looks good on paper. Both offices have recently undergone near total renovations, new operatories, carpeting, almost all the toys and gizmos you would think of (minus CAD/CAM). It’s always inspiring to see someone doing good for themselves like this guy.

It comes at a price though. I could see the weight of owning 2 offices and the burden of that responsibility on his face. Most practice owners will complain about the business side of dentistry and running your own practice and having 2 full-time jobs, but come on … did you forget what it’s like to work for someone else? It’s practically anyone’s fantasy to own their business, be their own boss and make up their own work schedule. And it’s not like you’re doing it for free … there is a serious financial payoff to that extra effort. I have yet to see a general dentist working full-time who takes home less than $200,000. And that’s after all the tax write-offs and all the “business expenses”. Think of it …

On the other hand, I may just be naive. I wouldn’t be surprised if my views change once I walk a day in their shoes. It’s all about the balance … is it worth it? Do you really need that much money to be happy, and how much of your sanity and peace of mind are you willing to give up for it?

Back to this guy. His average daily production is $6,000, and regularly collects north of a million/year. By himself. No associates. But then again, he’s been doing this for 25 years. Granted, not everyone is making that money … he is admittedly doing above average, but there are many stories similar to his out there. He’s no rock-star.

As an aside, I think the term “million dollar practice” is thrown around way too often as a marker or yard stick of exclusivity and what not for dental practices … it just doesn’t seem that rare anymore. Maybe I’ve just been spoiled on interviews, but I’ve seen that it’s pretty doable with decent effort and a clear commitment to your staff and patients.


Here is a random little tidbit for you … as it turns out, specialists and GP’s both make the same amount of money! Shocking? Not really … what sets dentists apart financially boils down to one dreaded word … -insert psycho screech here- … OVERHEAD!
So a GP, Endodontist and Orthodontist walk into a bar … nevermind. A GP, Endo and ortho each produce one million per year … guess who takes home most of that money? The guy with the least overhead … duh!

GP overhead: 70 cents on the dollar (takes home 30)
Endo overhead: 55 cents on the dollar (takes home 45)
Ortho overhead: 50 cents on the dollar (takes home 50)

You get the picture … slay the overhead dragon!



Alright, now for some random private practice stories and rants. My favorite part.


So, in the past few months, our periodontist decided to take the plunge and start his own gig with a friend. He will be buying into an existing practice as a partner, to eventually own the practice. Sounds like a good deal …

We have been since interviewing potential candidates to fill his position, obviously. Now this is where it got kind of weird. One of the persons we interviewed had been in perio practice for 6 years since residency, and has been happy for only 2 of them. He was telling me how he personally felt perio as a field was slowly dying, and how much crap he had to put up with from general dentists whom he had worked with. This dude was seriously not happy. He seems like an easy going person, but was just not able to get a break. So what to do? He’s going back into general practice. Interesting, huh? His opinion was why should I send the patient back to the GP if I’m doing the majority of the ground work? I want to have my cake and eat it. The way he was marketing himself to us was that he would be doing our perio, all while doing general dentistry where needed. Wait, waaaah … ? He wants to only do crowns on crown lengthened teeth, place restorations only for implants which he has placed, manage chronic perio patients from a general dentists perspective. I’m a bit lost … I think so was he. Needless to say, he was not taken very seriously. It was a bit disheartening though to see how unhappy he was and I might say even bitter about his field not providing the job security he had once hoped for. Obviously, the first thing to blame is always the economy, then the AAP, then oral surgeons … and of course … wait for it … “DENTISTS”.

We have since hired a new periodontist, which is already getting on my nerves … LOL! She keeps referring to herself as “the surgeon”. “As a surgeon, I can do this” or “I can’t do that”. Someone help me! It’s actually entertaining for the first few minutes to hear her talk like that, but you can imagine how it can get old pretty quick. I really appreciate her though as a colleague otherwise, and think she will do fine at our practice. She’s only at my office one day a week, and her schedule is picking up at a healthy pace. It’s funny though, because they started pulling scaling/root planning patients from the hygienist’s schedules to keep “the surgeon” busy when she first started, but I guess now it is a bit better where she has a mix of other procedures planned as well. The hygienists were furious when it first happened as you can imagine. Oh, office drama … it’s kind of fun actually. One of the many perks of working in a group practice . I’m sure this is one thing I will miss when I’m at my own office.



What I’ve learned

Once a patient is numb (and I mean fully numb), they will usually forgive and forget however many or what kind of injections it took to get them there. If they have a good experience, in terms of not feeling anything during the procedure itself, they really don’t mind much after that. All my patients get palatal injections for any maxillary tooth. Doesn’t matter whether it’s a root canal or a class one restoration. You can thank me later for that little tip. It sometimes is uncomfortable during the infiltration, but they always walk out with a smile on their face, and remember little of it once they’re numb. Needless to say, all mandibular teeth get IA, lingual and sometimes long buccal blocks. Once you start doing infiltrations on posterior mandibular teeth, I have found that it is really a hit or miss. The soft tissue usually gets numb, but the teeth are not fully there. You will still every now and then get that one sensitive spot on the tooth until you go back and do the block.

Be nice to your patients. I mean seriously, be nice. Take the time to listen to what they say (uninterrupted) and actually repeat their main concern back to them in your own words. Don’t jump the gun or assume you know what they need. Try to discern what they want, and present it to them in the context of what they need. That in of itself is an art of communication.

Patients tend to translate confidence, good communication skills and “was a great guy” … to competence. That is how they really judge us. I cannot tell you how many times a patient will sing words and verses of praise about their previous dentist, and how he/she was “such a great dentist”, and “did amazing work” … and I’m sitting there staring at the FMX thinking to myself, are you freakin’ kidding me? You paid this guy for his work … lol. Ok, maybe I’m being a bit harsh, but it never ceases to amaze me how much terrible dentistry is done by “great dentists”! I really have no reason to believe the last dentist was doing anything less than their best effort, and probably was working to the extent of their abilities. But still … It frustrates me that dentists that go over and beyond clinically and truly do exceptional work, are rarely recognized by patients, just because patients simply cannot tell the difference. The endodontist who took his time, over 2 appointments and spent 2 hours locating all 4 canals in a maxillary molar, using a rubber dam, is often perceived or translated by the patient to “took him forever” and was “slow”. On the flipside, the general dentist who quits at 3 canals, barely does any cleaning and shaping and fills short (with no rubber dam mind you) BUT completes the whole thing in an hour, is “such a wonderful dentist”. Ugh …

Patients LOVE post-op calls. Extractions, root canals and crowns all get post-op calls the next day, just to “make sure you are healthy and are feeling OK after yesterday’s procedure”. It works like a charm … Every. Single. Time.

It really does not take a whole lot to be a good dentist in the eyes of your patients. I’m always surprised. I cannot reiterate this enough, just be honest, sincere in having their best interest and do no harm (emphasis on do no harm). It’s pretty simple.

Level with your patients, be honest. When you break a file during root canal treatment, don’t brush it under the rug. It is probably one of the more difficult aspects of practice, but hey, it beats telling them that their relative or loved one died on your operating table. Calmly explain to the patient that this is one of the limitations of our instruments, and make your decision on whether it needs to be retrieved by a specialist or whether it’s safe to watch.
When you can’t see all your margins on that impression, explain to the patient why you need to re-take it. Don’t send it to the lab and hope they can fudge it.
When that curved apical 1/3 root tip snaps off, and you think it needs to be retrieved, take the time to explain it to your patient what happened -despite your best efforts- and why you believe they need to see a specialist for further treatment. Of course, all this is assuming you are working within your comfort zone and are not taking on cases which should otherwise be referred out.

Set your patient’s expectations to favor your own success (without obviously misleading them). Your patient’s problem is not your own, and you should not make it your problem. If a patient breaks a tooth or needs a root canal and asks you if can fix it, and you fail to do so, it rightly becomes your problem. You failed to fix it in their eyes for whatever reasons. Then you start apologizing, feeling guilty, yada, yada, yada. However … If a patient asks you to fix their tooth, and you explain to them that their tooth is damaged and you will try to save it for them … oh boy, what a difference!


Setting lower than realistic expectations, while working towards higher than realistic outcomes. You'll always be a hero!


Ok, I’ve run my big mouth quite a bit this time. I’ll stop here.

More to come …
 
thanks again for a great post Nile!
 
Very informative and great narration......I'm actually going through the same thought process (3 yr in pvt practice), give it two yrs and you will be ready to make the switch, believe me it's never too early to start locatng areas where you want to practice especially if you are getting married and thinking of settling down.
 
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GP overhead: 70 cents on the dollar (takes home 30)
Endo overhead: 55 cents on the dollar (takes home 45)
Ortho overhead: 50 cents on the dollar (takes home 50)

I am sure this was just an example, but 70% overhead for a GP is a bit much

The average (from the ADA) is 61%, and all of the GP's that I shadowed said they have overhead in the mid 50% range.
 
As an aside, I think the term “million dollar practice” is thrown around way too often as a marker or yard stick of exclusivity and what not for dental practices … it just doesn’t seem that rare anymore. Maybe I’ve just been spoiled on interviews, but I’ve seen that it’s pretty doable with decent effort and a clear commitment to your staff and patients.

I completely agree! Also, we have to take into account inflation. A "million dollar practice" 10 years ago was much more impressive than a million dollar practice now. With inflation affecting the value of a dollar each year, it won't be long until a "two million dollar practice" is the gold standard of revenue awesomeness for a GP.
 
thank you so much for your post:love:
God bless you
 
This is a phenomenal thread, thanks for starting it, and...more importantly; thanks for the continuous updates and advice.
 
I absolutely love your posts Nile! I think the majority of blogs I read on dentistry have to do with the dental school experience, so it's nice to read a blog about life afterwards.

please continue to update! :)
 
I especially appreciate the latter part of your post. I have been following since the beginning and I will continue to follow. I completely agree with everything you have been saying. Patients equate confidence with skill, and the two are often not the same, it must be frustrating! Keep em coming.
 
Nice post Nile!! Congrats on your wedding!! I heard you were engaged from Rishi but didn't know about the wedding plans. Well, if you want to look at the brighter side of things tax refunds are a little higher at the end of the year for married couples versus filing as single ;).
Well, coming to your blog about owning a practice, here is my 'uncalled for' 2 cents: if you really want to be the owner I think you should do it. I know this dentist, of course she had been working at a corporate office for two years after graduation. Now she owns her own practice (which was a start up) and it has been a year. Counting in school loans and everything related to the dental clinic as overhead she has made a profit of about 1000 dollars last month. I think that is awesome considering that, it is a start up in a very saturated city. You have the experience of a GPR which is awesome followed by a few months of private practice. Now you have this guy who is willing to take you on as an associate which will still give you the bi weekly paycheck... and, you realize your dream!! I believe there is never going to be a better time than now. Of course you have to factor in the family thing, make sure your fiance is on the same page with you, willing to take on that risk and all. Good luck on whatever you decide!!
Thanks for all those tips on clinical side. I am taking them to my clinic tomorrow... :). I agree the patients love it if you listen... you can be the crappiest dentist, but if you have good ears and a lot of patience you can win their trust.
Keep it coming...
 
Very informative and great narration......I'm actually going through the same thought process (3 yr in pvt practice), give it two yrs and you will be ready to make the switch, believe me it's never too early to start locatng areas where you want to practice especially if you are getting married and thinking of settling down.


Yup. 3 years is probably more than I want to wait. I'd probably not last more than 2 years as an associate. ;) Honestly, I'm giving it till this summer after I get married so I have more time planning for my wedding and spending more time with my wife (not having to close down my practice). Once that's behind me, I'm putting myself (and her) to work. :laugh:

Keep us posted. Are you going out on your own soon? How has associating been working for you so far? Likes/Dislikes?

I'm sure I'm not alone in wanting to hear what your experience has been so far and what your next step may be ...
 
I am sure this was just an example, but 70% overhead for a GP is a bit much

The average (from the ADA) is 61%, and all of the GP's that I shadowed said they have overhead in the mid 50% range.


Well, I guess there are some mid %50 outliers out there, but is not the norm. No point in arguing numbers though. The only overhead that will matter to you in practice is your own, and how do I bring it down (or increase my gross collections to set off that above-average overhead. 70% is probably on the higher side, but %55 is almost unheard of (certainly not dismissing your personal experience though).

Those practices are not likely to have high gross numbers. For instance, the owner may be doing some of the hygiene (part time hygienist only) or performing only a basic mix of procedures (low lab bill), low tech armamentarium, no marketing, ...
 
Nile, yes get the wedding stuff out of the way first...if the wife (to be) is happy then you will be happy;).

I'm ready to make the transtion, and i dont think that it's less scary or risky compared to when i just finished my GPR, but i'm just fed up with the trials and tribulations of associateships. my experience has been a mix of good and bad, but it's becoming more bad than good.
What i've learned so far as that in any associate position you have to be patient until things get rolling, and you have to be flexible in terms of working with staff as a team otherwise you will be a very sore and disgruntled dentist. it's good not to worry about staff issues and dramas, but i think i'm ready to take on the headaches of managment now that i somewhat have an idea of what kind of practice i want to have.
I have not picked a spot yet, but i know that i wont be in a large city and i know that i would like to take on exisiting practice.

I think in any setting a transition from associate to solo practitioner will be tricky and will require patience and motivation.

I don't know if it will happen this year, but i'm hoping that things will start shaping up this summer.
 



New DDS on the Block
:
Private Practice Blogumentary 5




Ugh ... last week I had the dreaded “production talk” with the office manager about my February production. Hmm ... that was pretty interesting. I’ve heard about stories like this happening with other associates, but kept my eyes lids shut tight hoping it would not happen to me (because hey, I’m on salary and thought I had already covered this with the owner).


Now for some background. My production over the past 7 or 8 months has actually been consistently average or above average (mostly above). Not one low month to date, which I took as a good sign. Besides, I have not been paying that much attention to my "numbers", since I am compensated based on salary and not production, so my actual production means very little to me. My agreement with the owner was that as long as he kept me busy and my schedule booked, I would do the work. Plain and simple. This arrangement was great for me since I did not have to worry about ... production. And in the event my schedule was not managed properly or if there were to be a big cancellation, I would not have to worry about it. That was the front desk/management teams’ job, not mine. Personally, I think the office manager should be the one questioned by the owner about my production, not the office manager talking to me. In a way, I think she felt like she needed to have that discussion with me merely to justify her situation to her boss, possibly placing some of the blame on me and being like: "oh, I talked to Dr. so and so about his production, and gave him suggestions and creative ideas to bring it back up" as opposed to owning up to the fact that we perhaps just didn't have enough patients that month or the fact that my schedule at times was not managed as well as it could have been or maybe even too many cancellations or one too many snow days (LOVE snow days btw ;)) ... or could it possibly be (bear with me here) that I had one bad month after 8 pretty good ones (gasp!).

The way it goes is that if you have an unusually high month one month, then the one to follow is likely to be unusually low, since you'll mostly be delivering and continuing the work you billed out last month (2 or more visit RCT/Build-up/Crown, 2 or 3 visit crown and bridge, multiple visit removable cases, ...). I actually did really well in January, so it would make sense to me that February would be lousy. So what!


Again, I know I had a slow February, and I could have seen the low numbers coming a mile away, but did not make much of it. I guess this whole office manager “pep-talk” just left a bitter taste in my mouth about how much numbers mean to them (my employer) as opposed to what kind of care the patients are actually receiving or trying to assess patient satisfaction (yeah, right!). I mean, I don’t expect any high-fiving or back-slaps from the owner when I have a great production month, as I don’t want to hear about a one-off low month from some office manager.


I don't know, am I maybe just making too much of this whole production thing? At least now I can see how dentists that work for big corporations can turn into production ******, and give a damn about what is actually good for the patient or what they've learned in school (and I've heard some ridiculous stories). Just a harsh reality of being an associate. I actually consider my office and my whole associateship to be pretty pleasant for the most part, so I can only imagine what horrors may be going on in some other practices.
I already know that I'll have a strong March, but again, I just really don't care (at least I didn't until last week). Maybe I should start paying more attention to my numbers. Hey, maybe I should not be as nice to them, and not continue to work off a flat salary as I thought was reasonable before! This whole thing got me thinking ... huh … I guess it’s not all bad after all.



Besides, any good business knows that one month alone, taken out of context means very little. It should be put into perspective (for instance 3 months at a time – quarterly evaluations) or even compared to the same month in years past. Granted, I don’t have that track record since I’ve been here for less than a year, but at least quarterly? I don’t know. As you can probably sense from my post here, this whole thing just rubbed me the wrong way. I guess the honey moon is over …


The more time I spend as an associate, the easier it becomes for me to understand why most associateships do not work long term. It’s really not all that complicated.
All of us understand that no one will hire an associate only to lose money. That's no way to do businesses. Anyone hiring an associate at the very least expects to break even or make some good money off of that new dentist, but most owners are not satisfied with just that. They’re greedy too! And maybe it’s not such a bad thing, since none of us should be working as associates for too long. You want to get out on your own eventually, and really start realizing your potential. My advice would be not to get too comfortable; don’t spend too much time there.



As more time goes by, I hear more and more stories about past associates and how (or why) they left. Keep in mind that some associates have been at this practice for 10+ years! Of those who left, some did so because they badly needed more time off than the office would allow them (note to self – 2 weeks off to Europe in the middle of a busy month is not ok as an associate :eek:), one had a baby and never came back, a couple others started their own practice, some eventually got greedy once they wised up to just how much money they were actually making the practice, and how much more they would get to keep if they fired the boss! As an owner, your income would include (on top of whatever you would make as an associate);

  • What money the current owner is profiting from my production
  • Build patient goodwill for your practice ($$$ when you sell)
  • Increase your practice value (again $$$)
PLUS

  • Hygiene production (significant!)
  • ... maybe even hire your own associate and take two weeks off to go see Europe!

Maybe some day I will, and that someday can't come soon enough ...



Ciao!






 
why didnt you just tell the front desk what's up? can u look at your schedule and tell them why? were there less working days that month? a couple less working days could be significant. in the end, the office manager is just that and this seems to be a good wake up call for keeping up with your numbers. if i end up on a salary my 1st year out like i envision, i'll know to keep an eye on my numbers now. thanks nile!
 
I would just brush it off Nile.

They are the ones that agreed to pay you a salary not based on production.
 
why didnt you just tell the front desk what's up?

Yeah, I don't see how this can really be your fault and I would have said so to the office manager.

I mean, I am not an office manager here but from my common sense you aren't the one scheduling the patients.

As long as you are not falling behind and having patients walk out of the office right?

Or is there some other variable that I am missing :confused:
 
why didnt you just tell the front desk what's up? can u look at your schedule and tell them why? were there less working days that month? a couple less working days could be significant. in the end, the office manager is just that and this seems to be a good wake up call for keeping up with your numbers. if i end up on a salary my 1st year out like i envision, i'll know to keep an eye on my numbers now. thanks nile!

Traditionally in many offices, February is a slower month producion wise (and not just because of less days).

What typically happens, is January is a good month just simply because many procedures that patients who have dental insurance might have been holding off on in the previous calender year if they used up their insurance benefits that prior year, get done in January, so your basically automatically doing more, and often larger $$ procedures, in January than in most months. Then, during January, many folks get their credit card bills from the holidays and will often delay their treatment (both simple restorative and larger items) for a few months until their holiday bills are taken care of, and this often directly effects February, and sometimes March too. Many times though once March and April roll around, and many folks get refund checks from the IRS, things pick back up to normal/above normal levels.

In my 10 years of private practice, what I tend to have found out production wise in the 1st few months of the year, is that January is often 10-20% above an "average" month, February is often 10-15% below an "average" month, March is usually about "average" and April is usually above "average"

The other month that year in and year out that tends to be below average for my practice atleast, is September. The kids are back in school, and the bills from back to school shopping show up. Once October rolls around and parents are back into the school schedule routine, things are back to normal again.
 
Traditionally in many offices, February is a slower month producion wise (and not just because of less days).

What typically happens, is January is a good month just simply because many procedures that patients who have dental insurance might have been holding off on in the previous calender year if they used up their insurance benefits that prior year, get done in January, so your basically automatically doing more, and often larger $$ procedures, in January than in most months. Then, during January, many folks get their credit card bills from the holidays and will often delay their treatment (both simple restorative and larger items) for a few months until their holiday bills are taken care of, and this often directly effects February, and sometimes March too. Many times though once March and April roll around, and many folks get refund checks from the IRS, things pick back up to normal/above normal levels.

In my 10 years of private practice, what I tend to have found out production wise in the 1st few months of the year, is that January is often 10-20% above an "average" month, February is often 10-15% below an "average" month, March is usually about "average" and April is usually above "average"

The other month that year in and year out that tends to be below average for my practice atleast, is September. The kids are back in school, and the bills from back to school shopping show up. Once October rolls around and parents are back into the school schedule routine, things are back to normal again.

this is really interesting... Is there any literature about the cyclical nature of dental demands? or is this your experience alone? either way I like the logic so thanks for sharing.
 
this is really interesting... Is there any literature about the cyclical nature of dental demands? or is this your experience alone? either way I like the logic so thanks for sharing.

Bump.

This is, hands down, the most useful and enlightening thread on SDN. Please keep the updates coming, Nile.:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
 
Yes, this is a great blog by niles.

I'm a 1st year DDS. I just started to working in bay area, California, with other associates in a practice. Senior DDS offered a 3 month trial period with per diem rate of $480/day doing hygiene mostly and slowly easing me into other procedures during 3 months. No working interviews.

My first day production ~$2500 production, 2nd day $3500, 3rd day working at practice$7000.

After office manager saw my skills and patient communication skills on first day of work, they allowed me to do other things beside hygiene starting from day 1. They allotted 3 month for trial period to learn their way of charting, tx planning, and doing dentistry starting with hygiene. However, they are very impressed with my speed and skills after 3 days of working.

1. Since I verbally agreed to work during 3 month trial period for $480/day, when do you think it would be good to negotiate a salary based on production or collection?

During interview, Senior DDS said he pays 20% collection to associates. I did not make any comment and response at the time, but it seems very low to me.

Based on market in northern California, associates are paid 30-35% on production, or 35-40% on collection. Perhaps, it was his way of psychologizing the negotiations early on with a very low number so he can work his way up from 20%.

1. Again, should I negotiate before the 3 month trial period is over? What is a good way without appearing "greedy"? In 3 days, I have increased the profitability of their practice. Yet I feel somewhat used because I'm doing and making so much money for the practice for only $480/day.

2. Another question. They have asked me to sub for other associates doing all phases of dentistry (not as doing hygiene mostly as talked about during interview day). Nothing was said about compensation when they asked me recently.

Shouldn't I be compensated more than $480/day when substituting? Shouldn't I be paid what the associates I'm substituting for make in the office, whatever their percentage is? There are several associates in the practice. It only seems fair that way or at least more than what I'm making now because I'm doing more than hygiene as agreed during the trial period. My guess is that they think I will work for $480/day.

Your advice and input will be appreciated.

Thanks.
 
New DDS on the Block: Private Practice Blogumentary 1




It's not an easy starter job either, but at least they're paying me for it. I work for a group practice, but am the only full-time provider at my office. The owner picks up a half day a week, and there is another part time dentist for two full days, but otherwise ... it's all me ... emergencies, hygiene checks, new patients, scheduled patients, lab calls, med consults ... it takes a lot of stamina. But most surprising of all to me is that at the end of the day, when I', finally home and kick my feet up on the coffee table and, I am happy. It is a very fulfilling feeling, which reminds me that every turn I took on the way that brought me to where I am right now was the right one. If only there were a better way to describe it.

First off, I love the blog and as a future dental student this information is really opening my eyes to what I have to look forward to as a career. As much as I love reading all the other stuff, the bold line literally made me grin ear to ear. My goal is to be happy with what I do, and that is why I chose dentistry in the first place. It is something that got lost among posts about DAT studying and interview tips and Dec. 1st decision dates, but seeing this post kind of brought me back to why I really want to be a dentist and makes me feel like I made the right decision. Thanks for the blog and keep up the good work.
 
Yes, this is a great blog by niles.

I'm a 1st year DDS. I just started to working in bay area, California, with other associates in a practice. Senior DDS offered a 3 month trial period with per diem rate of $480/day doing hygiene mostly and slowly easing me into other procedures during 3 months. No working interviews.

My first day production ~$2500 production, 2nd day $3500, 3rd day working at practice$7000.

After office manager saw my skills and patient communication skills on first day of work, they allowed me to do other things beside hygiene starting from day 1. They allotted 3 month for trial period to learn their way of charting, tx planning, and doing dentistry starting with hygiene. However, they are very impressed with my speed and skills after 3 days of working.

1. Since I verbally agreed to work during 3 month trial period for $480/day, when do you think it would be good to negotiate a salary based on production or collection?

During interview, Senior DDS said he pays 20% collection to associates. I did not make any comment and response at the time, but it seems very low to me.

Based on market in northern California, associates are paid 30-35% on production, or 35-40% on collection. Perhaps, it was his way of psychologizing the negotiations early on with a very low number so he can work his way up from 20%.

1. Again, should I negotiate before the 3 month trial period is over? What is a good way without appearing "greedy"? In 3 days, I have increased the profitability of their practice. Yet I feel somewhat used because I'm doing and making so much money for the practice for only $480/day.

2. Another question. They have asked me to sub for other associates doing all phases of dentistry (not as doing hygiene mostly as talked about during interview day). Nothing was said about compensation when they asked me recently.

Shouldn't I be compensated more than $480/day when substituting? Shouldn't I be paid what the associates I'm substituting for make in the office, whatever their percentage is? There are several associates in the practice. It only seems fair that way or at least more than what I'm making now because I'm doing more than hygiene as agreed during the trial period. My guess is that they think I will work for $480/day.

Your advice and input will be appreciated.

Thanks.

My 2 cents on this.

Okay, #1 - if your producing those kind of #'s doing mainly hygiene and making around $500 a day, I do believe you're being primed for the 20% compensation figure when you move out of hygiene mode and into general dentistry mode. Now unless the senior doc(s) there run that practice extremely inefficiently, or have an absolutely horrible collections rate, the actual office overhead is more likely in the 50-60% range, and if you're looking to move to the associate level, with maybe a future partnership offer, they should be more than willing to open the books up and show you those practice numbers. So if it was me, I would personally come to the negotiating table over what percentage you'll get paid with a starting asking # in that 35-40% range - if they want you, and see that you're an asset to the practice, you'll likely end up much closer to your starting % than their starting offer

#2, if and when you make the switch from per diem hygiene work, to % general dentistry work, if you've been producing those types of #'s now just doing hygiene, use as a negotiation point that your % compensation pay, will start from that day, but you will get paid based on what ever collections are still rolling in from your time doing hygiene - basically unless the office is in the truest of forms a fee for service practice where ALL $$ is collected the day for service for work done, there's always a lag between when you do the procedure and when all the $$ is collected (payment plans, insurance plans, etc, etc, etc is the cause) and this way, you will have accumulated 3 months of "accounts receivable" that will serve to augment your pay from when you switch over, or else you could end up in a situation where for a few weeks, you may be producing say $4000 a day, but the office might take 3 to 4+ weeks to collect that $$ and hence pay you

#3 If they want to you sub as an associate for a day or two, then you should be paid as that associate would be paid for that day - this may be settled in the form of a bump up in your per diem that day, or it may start the process of accruing some accounts receivable for your to be paid in in the coming weeks as the $$ is finally collected.
 
Yes, this is a great blog by niles.


My first day production ~$2500 production, 2nd day $3500, 3rd day working at practice$7000.

Thanks.

u produced $7000 doing only hygiene??!.... and in california?? lol if i produce $7K in a day (sole practitioner here) i'm ecstatic... $7K doing only hygiene is very hard to believe.. how much can you possibly charge for an SRP???
 
u produced $7000 doing only hygiene??!.... and in california?? lol if i produce $7K in a day (sole practitioner here) i'm ecstatic... $7K doing only hygiene is very hard to believe.. how much can you possibly charge for an SRP???


After office manager saw my skills and patient communication skills on first day of work, they allowed me to do other things beside hygiene starting from day 1.
:thumbup:
 
Awesome thread, I have a test in 2 hours but it has not been time wasted. NilesBDS, you should write a book.
 
DrJeff,

Thank you for your helpful response. I will go in this Friday and discuss with them about my compensation on days I will be substituting. It is my off day, so I plan to learn about insurance, practice management, pat. sheduling, the business side of dentistry. This is my first job since graduating in 2009. It is a part time job.

1. When do you think is the best time to negotiate on a percentage? Is it too early too negotiate? Would it be reasonable to ask to shorten the 3 month trial period because I'm progressing rapidly? It has been only my 3rd day at work and I don't want to sabotage our relationship. Senior DDS had me sign a paper stating I will stay for 3 months as an independant contractor.


*To clarify, $7000 production was doing hygiene, crowns, simple restoratives, exams. Initially, the Senior DDS wanted to transition me into doing other things besides hygiene during a 3 month trial period.

I have another full time job offer in Bay Area, with equity % given in exchange for long term commitment. About 40% is HMO, rest PPO, FFS, CASH pts.

Thanks for your commments.
 
DrJeff,

Thank you for your helpful response. I will go in this Friday and discuss with them about my compensation on days I will be substituting. It is my off day, so I plan to learn about insurance, practice management, pat. sheduling, the business side of dentistry. This is my first job since graduating in 2009. It is a part time job.

1. When do you think is the best time to negotiate on a percentage? Is it too early too negotiate? Would it be reasonable to ask to shorten the 3 month trial period because I'm progressing rapidly? It has been only my 3rd day at work and I don't want to sabotage our relationship. Senior DDS had me sign a paper stating I will stay for 3 months as an independant contractor.


*To clarify, $7000 production was doing hygiene, crowns, simple restoratives, exams. Initially, the Senior DDS wanted to transition me into doing other things besides hygiene during a 3 month trial period.

I have another full time job offer in Bay Area, with equity % given in exchange for long term commitment. About 40% is HMO, rest PPO, FFS, CASH pts.

Thanks for your commments.

Personally I'd wait until you've been there for a solid month before you get into some negotiations. This way, you'll be through the initial "honeymoon period" and will have a slightly better sense of how the practice operates/does the staff drive you crazy and vice versa/collection rates/can you get along with the other docs and more importantly senior partner and lastly would you WANT to work there/would they want you to work there (it is a two way street afterall)

Then, you still have 2 months to negotiate a contract. I'd also definitely play that other offer of this practice (if you want to work there), since if they want you to work there and feel you'll be an asset to the practice, you'll get a competitive offer
 
this is great thread NileBDS. can't wait for next entry :thumbup:

to Gabe7
I kindly ask, could you not hijack the thread. u can start a thread with your own topic.
 

New DDS on the Block:
Private Practice Blogumentary 6




Just a guy with a sunny predisposition.




I've been getting more efficient (I'm hoping proficient also) in doing more procedures by now. I'm cherry picking molar endos, picking up some relatively complex prosth, anterior cases and multiple unit crowns. It turns out I actually underestimated the amount of learning and growth I had initially projected from my current associate position. Yeah, it's possible and yeah … it did make a difference, despite some of the negatives and several reasons to leave for greener pastures. It's all good.


So, after having a dismal February, my production for March turned out pretty solid as expected, and actually hit a new high for April. And I'm sure the office manager is first in line to take credit for it! :D I really did not change much of what I did nor the way in which I do it. It's funny how these things fluctuate. I still feel like it should never have been an issue, but you know what, whatever … Even though the other associate here keeps kicking my butt in numbers (not by much, but I'm always trailing her), I'm trying my best not to play keep up. I'm really happy with the pace I'm progressing and am not ready to push any harder now because I'm sure I'll have to compromise something somewhere else. For now, I'm just letting all the chips fall in place. A $50k average monthly production my first year out as an associate (read: does not include hygiene, exams, x-rays, …) is maybe nothing to brag about, but still pretty darn good in my book.


I have been on a few more interviews for positions leading to partnership/ownership and possible purchases, but have really just been disappointed time after time. I think it's mainly a result of my slightly unrealistic vision of this nice high-tech (or even moderate-tech) office for sale, which I would associate or partner at for a while, and then eventually purchase to own. Yeah, not gonna happen … It has been frustrating more than anything so far. I feel like a girl that's been on a stretch of terrible dates. :smuggrin:


I don't know whether it's just Connecticut or if this is also true in other states, but most dentists here just don't bother to have nice offices. They're all tacky, 50's and 60's furniture that has never been updated, hideous wall paper, grandpa and grandma living room kind of feel. Just flat out creepy sometimes … no wonder people don't like going to the dentist. The light music radio station, the old people smell, the noises and GOD, the terrible furniture! Enough to make your stomach turn! What am I missing? I guess I just don't know. I mean ok, I get the fact that retiring dentists are by definition an older group of folks, but really? These offices had to have been like that since the day they hung up that shingle. We're talking basics here. Digital x-rays? At least computers for scheduling? Adequately lit waiting areas? Ever heard of Febreeze? :rolleyes:


Again, frustration would be a good word, but I am trying my best to not allow my frustration grow into despair. There really is a silver lining in all this. I'm thinking to myself, wow! You can be in business, with so little effort? All these doctors have successful practices, and have patients which seem to like them (despite some obvious personality quirks even), and patients for the most part don't seem to know any better, that there may be "nicer" practices out there for them to choose from. I am sometimes on interviews just thinking to myself "is this what I got a haircut, took time off work and dressed up for?" So yeah, needless to say, have been a few rough interviews (can you tell?). Don't get jaded by bad experiences. I still dress up every time. I dress up for every interview (suit and tie), go fresh and try to mentally prepare myself as if it's my first. It always leaves a good impression, and sets you apart right off the bat. If anything, look at it as a networking opportunity, and we really need that in our profession and more so business. You really never know who you'll need later and for what. It's really important to represent yourself at your best, to dress the part. If you're not serious 110% about the job and not willing to put in all the effort it takes to leave a good impression, then you're just frankly better off staying at home. You wouldn't go to your dental school interview without a suit and tie? You'd be surprised how unprofessional some people are on interviews, or maybe not … There was a periodontist asking for a $200,000 salary, yet showed up to the interview in khakis, scrub tops and sneakers … this other guy who didn't care enough to shave and iron his shirt … a young lady with her dunkin donuts iced coffee in hand …


So the next logic step would be to build my own practice and carry out my own vision of how I want it to be, right? I mean, I know this already and have thought about it a lot, but it's tricky. Banks aren't that gung ho about lending anymore from what I've heard.
Say you have an existing practice to purchase, 400k, 500k or even a million! The bank will probably be ok loaning you the money, as long as you can prove to them that 1. You have previous tax returns from the practice and financial statements (productions, collections, accounts receivable, …) to back it up and 2. That you yourself could reasonable produce that much. Of course it is more complicated than that, but that's it in a nutshell. They're buying a running business with revenue, patients and systems in place from day one. Very little risk. On the other hand, to convince a bank to loan you even 200k or 300k for a startup, that's when they get a bit nervous and start asking lot of questions like collateral, working capital, co-signers … It's more risky for them (especially in this economy). In the case of an existing practice, the practice itself is your collateral. In the case of a startup, you essentially have nothing.


I feel like now would have been a good time for me to do something, get bigger, grow some more. Time for the training wheels to come off! If these other guys can do it, why can't I?


Oh, that's right, I'm waiting ‘till after my wedding in September … sigh … OK, scratch that …


 
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Great post as always Niles. Quick question for you. Is the practice you're working in a Fee For Service or something else?

Thanks
 
Lol, the last part is sometimes how I feel about things. Keep it in perspective, having a happy marriage (future for you) will be imperative to being happy and keeping a good relationship. Marriage takes work, but put in the effort and time and you'll be rewarded. Thanks again Nile and good luck!
 
great post as always! not that I know anything about this matter yet, but if your dream is to have that high-tech office with all the bells and whistles, wouldn't it just be better to buy an existing practice and redesign everything? i mean sure it would be a pain to compile all the stone age records into digital ones, and sure you might have to make a few trips to the furniture store, but at least you can get an existing patient base right?
 
I don't know whether it's just Connecticut or if this is also true in other states, but most dentists here just don't bother to have nice offices. They're all tacky, 50's and 60's furniture that has never been updated, hideous wall paper, grandpa and grandma living room kind of feel. Just flat out creepy sometimes … no wonder people don't like going to the dentist. The light music radio station, the old people smell, the noises and GOD, the terrible furniture! Enough to make your stomach turn! What am I missing? I guess I just don't know. I mean ok, I get the fact that retiring dentists are by definition an older group of folks, but really? These offices had to have been like that since the day they hung up that shingle. We're talking basics here. Digital x-rays? At least computers for scheduling? Adequately lit waiting areas? Ever heard of Febreeze?

I see this a lot in New Jersey, much more than I expected. Maybe it's because construction in the Northeast is much older. I'm in the same boat with the marriage thing. I'm trying to do a startup but had to put it on hold because the wedding planning completely consumed my life.
 
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