My Experience in the Job Search (thus far)

[MetroPath]

Hello all,

Wanted to update you in regards to my job search.

I have been looking for a position since last October 2019. I applied broadly across the country to whatever job fits my fellowship training, just to see what I could get. I know I wouldn’t be happy living in the places I applied to but I just applied to see what type of response I would get.

I received several phone interviews and have been on very few interviews. From my 3-4 month job search, I realized that there ARE jobs but they are scattered across the country. Some areas are tighter than others in regards to jobs. If you are geographically flexible, there are jobs.

However, from my experience, it seems that employers are more willing to interview those who are local or who have family ties to the area. This is not surprising as you don’t want a pathologist to leave in a year or two. Also, they would have to pay the cost of the flight and accommodations if they were to fly you in for an interview, if you were out of state.

Why would you fly someone in to interview when they have no connections/ties to the area? So what I am trying to say is that although there are jobs across the country, I feel like I haven’t been invited to interview at some places because I had NO ties to the area and I was just applying to get a job. I mentioned to the recruiter that I was “geographically flexible” but I still haven’t heard back.

Most of these recruiters will ask you if you have any ties to the area. I think saying “I have a friend living there” or “I visited there once” would NOT be a good answer.

Based on my online search for jobs, there are jobs with partnership positions out there. So, that’s a positive. There are a bunch of academic positions, which I have no interest in. There are several VA jobs in cities I would not be happy living in. There are jobs at Quest and big corporations scattered across the country. I’d rather not work for Quest, but if I have to, I will take it.


I called a practice near my hometown and one of the practice managers mentioned they never advertised their jobs online and hire based on personal referral from nearby institutions (call some attending who was their mentor during training). Ive also heard this as a means of recruiting from this forum and others I talked to online.

Since everyone gets a job, I think it’s an ok job market. I don’t think it’s a good one however. You can only have so many pathologists in a group or hospital. If there is no one retiring, then you are out of luck.

I also talked to pathologists who are working in cities which have been considered a “tight job market” on here and they said that everyone seems to find a job in the area, another positive note.

I have friends who are attendings now that mentioned to me finding your first job without signout experience is difficult. I had a friend who applied to 20-25 jobs 5 years ago and only got 3 interviews. I talked to the president of a group who told me 10-15 years ago, the number of jobs online was much less than what we are seeing now. So I think the job market may have improved compared to previous years.

In summary, although there are jobs, you may not even be considered if you are not from the area or don’t have any ties to the area. So what I would recommend to everyone is to do your training in the area you want to work. That is the best way to get a job (personal referral from an attending in your fellowship program to the employer).

Make as many friends as possible and don't be that crazy/difficult person in residency that no one wants to work with. Don’t be that jerk who badmouths others. Don’t be that fellow who yells at junior residents. Don’t be that resident who doesn’t talk to anyone in the department.

If you go to a lesser known institution for residency, make sure you go to a top tier place for fellowship. When you are getting interviewed, people will look at the places you trained. A reputable, well known institution will set you apart from others and can help you land a good job. Please do not go to a lesser known place for fellowship. Training pedigree is important.

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[Napoleon1801]

Better be careful with your words. CAP might just publish another article about how SDN is destroying the field of pathology.

Good luck and stay persistent!

 

[Alteran]

If you go to a lesser known institution for residency, make sure you go to a top tier place for fellowship. When you are getting interviewed, people will look at the places you trained. A reputable, well known institution will set you apart from others and can help you land a good job. Please do not go to a lesser known place for fellowship. Training pedigree is important.

This is so important for those going into pathology to understand. Now being on the hiring side, I clearly see a difference in the quality of newly minted pathologists from low tier to mediocre programs vs. programs of good repute. However, this difference is only noticeable when comparing two fresh graduates. Its barely noticeable, if at all, when comparing applicants who have a couple years of sign-out experience.

 

[MetroPath]

Better be careful with your words. CAP might just publish another article about how SDN is destroying the field of pathology.

Good luck and stay persistent!

I only speak from my own personal experience. I know fellows who already got jobs as well.

 

[Euchromatin]

I received another job interview at a group I like. I got seriously lucky and contacted a pathologist online whose group needed my particular fellowship. I have never seen a job ad from this group EVER online. I hope I get this position, however, they are interviewing other candidates as well.

Thanks for sharing your experiences, MetroPath. I mostly agree with the points you made - the only exception is that candidates we have interviewed that are still in their fellowship (or very freshly out) who did residency at bigger name places haven't consistently performed any better on our slide test vs others at the same level of training/experience. I do agree that doing a fellowship at a more reputable institution is probably helpful if your residency program is not particularly well known nationally.

Just curious about the section quoted above. If that group never posted a job ad online, how did you find out they needed someone with your particular fellowship? Were you "cold-emailing" pathologists from some groups you were interested in in the hopes they might be hiring and/or randomly messaging pathologists using a platform like linkedin, doximity, sdn, etc.?

 

[MetroPath]

Thanks for sharing your experiences, MetroPath. I mostly agree with the points you made - the only exception is that candidates we have interviewed that are still in their fellowship (or very freshly out) who did residency at bigger name places haven't consistently performed any better on our slide test vs others at the same level of training/experience. I do agree that doing a fellowship at a more reputable institution is probably helpful if your residency program is not particularly well known nationally.

Just curious about the section quoted above. If that group never posted a job ad online, how did you find out they needed someone with your particular fellowship? Were you "cold-emailing" pathologists from some groups you were interested in in the hopes they might be hiring and/or randomly messaging pathologists using a platform like linkedin, doximity, sdn, etc.?

Thanks for sharing. Yes I totally agree going to a big name place does not necessarily mean you will be a good diagnostician or a “better” pathologist but some people are so into brand names. When they interview you, a “John Hopkins” residency or fellowship will make you stick out vs. a no or lesser name place. But I agree with what you say.

It really depends on the person.

I messaged a pathologist online. The group was looking for one of my two fellowships I trained in.

I think cold calling or cold emailing helps despite what some people on this forum say. You may not get a response from most but you may get lucky and have someone reply to you and invite you for an interview. You really have to put yourself out there and not just rely on internet searches only.

Luck favors those who put themselves out there.

 

[Med Director New England]

Thanks Metro for sharing, this is good info for MSs thinking about pathology.

I believe I remember you saying before you’re hoping to land in Chicago area and reading between the lines in your post, stressing geographic flexibility is needed, etc - I am guessing your finding nothing in the area you actually want to live?

if so this really stinks. I hope it works out for you. I can’t imagine how hard it must be for a couple both trained in pathology co-looking for jobs right now.

 

[MetroPath]

Thanks Metro for sharing, this is good info for MSs thinking about pathology.

I believe I remember you saying before you’re hoping to land in Chicago area and reading between the lines in your post, stressing geographic flexibility is needed, etc - I am guessing your finding nothing in the area you actually want to live?

if so this really stinks. I hope it works out for you. I can’t imagine how hard it must be for a couple both trained in pathology co-looking for jobs right now.

Yes, I have two possible leads thus far. One is a group but they are interviewing other candidates. I will consider myself lucky if I get this position.

The other is a small group. That’s it. Cold called a few groups but no ones looking.

 

[cmz]

Yes, I have two possible leads thus far. One is a group but they are interviewing other candidates. I will consider myself lucky if I get this position.

The other is a small outpatient lab. That’s it. Cold called a few groups but no ones looking.

What are your fellowships in? I'll consider you for a job.

 

[deleted915203]

Hello all,

Wanted to update you in regards to my job search.

I have been looking for a position since last October 2019. I applied broadly across the country to whatever job fits my fellowship training, just to see what I could get. I know I wouldn’t be happy living in the places I applied to but I just applied to see what type of response I would get.

I received several phone interviews and have been on very few interviews. From my 3-4 month job search, I realized that there ARE jobs but they are scattered across the country. Some areas are tighter than others in regards to jobs. If you are geographically flexible, there are jobs.

However, from my experience, it seems that employers are more willing to interview those who are local or who have family ties to the area. This is not surprising as you don’t want a pathologist to leave in a year or two. Also, they would have to pay the cost of the flight and accommodations if they were to fly you in for an interview, if you were out of state.

Why would you fly someone in to interview when they have no connections/ties to the area? So what I am trying to say is that although there are jobs across the country, I feel like I haven’t been invited to interview at some places because I had NO ties to the area and I was just applying to get a job. I mentioned to the recruiter that I was “geographically flexible” but I still haven’t heard back.

Most of these recruiters will ask you if you have any ties to the area. I think saying “I have a friend living there” or “I visited there once” would NOT be a good answer.

I went on an interviews based on a referral and was offered a position, but I will be honest, I wouldn’t be happy there. Then again, it’s a job. I also question the stability of this group in the long term (loss of hospital contract or being bought out by an academic entity). I only have one job offer thus far.

I received another job interview at a group I like. I got seriously lucky and contacted a pathologist online whose group needed my particular fellowship. I have never seen a job ad from this group EVER online. I hope I get this position, however, they are interviewing other candidates as well.

So despite the few interviews I got, I only got one job offer and I am awaiting the decision from the other group.

Based on my online search for jobs, there are jobs with partnership positions out there. So, that’s a positive. There are a bunch of academic positions, which I have no interest in (don’t like research or teaching residents/medical students). There are several VA jobs in cities I would not be happy living in. There are jobs at Quest and big corporations scattered across the country. I’d rather not work for Quest (I’d rather join a hospital based group with partnership track), but if I have to, I will take a job there.

I called a practice near my hometown and one of the practice managers mentioned they never advertised their jobs online and hire based on personal referral from nearby institutions (call some attending who was their mentor during training). Ive also heard this as a means of recruiting from this forum and others I talked to online.

Since everyone gets a job, I think it’s an ok job market. I don’t think it’s a good one however. You can only have so many pathologists in a group or hospital. If there is no one retiring, then you are out of luck.

I also talked to pathologists who are working in cities which have been considered a “tight job market” on here and they said that everyone seems to find a job in the area, another positive note.

I have friends who are attendings now that mentioned to me finding your first job without signout experience is difficult. I had a friend who applied to 20-25 jobs 5 years ago and only got 3 interviews. I talked to the president of a group who told me 10-15 years ago, the number of jobs online was much less than what we are seeing now. So I think the job market may have improved compared to previous years.

In summary, although there are jobs, you may not even be considered if you are not from the area or don’t have any ties to the area. So what I would recommend to everyone is to do your training in the area you want to work. That is the best way to get a job (personal referral from an attending in your fellowship program to the employer).

Make as many friends as possible and don't be that crazy/difficult person in residency that no one wants to work with. Don’t be that jerk who badmouths others. Don’t be that fellow who yells at junior residents. Don’t be that resident who doesn’t talk to anyone in the department.

If you go to a lesser known institution for residency, make sure you go to a top tier place for fellowship. When you are getting interviewed, people will look at the places you trained. A reputable, well known institution will set you apart from others and can help you land a good job. Please do not go to a lesser known place for fellowship. Training pedigree is important.

Will I Need to Move to Get My First Job?: Geographic Relocation and Other Trends in the Pathology Job Market. - PubMed - NCBI

George MR1, Johnson KA1, Gratzinger DA1, Brissette MD1, McCloskey CB1, Conran RM1, Dixon LR1, Roberts CA1, Rojiani AM1, Shyu I1, Timmons CF Jr1, Hoffman RD1.


Abstract
CONTEXT:
There is an ongoing perception that the pathology job market is poor, which may be discouraging medical students from pursuing the specialty. Academic pathologists believe that jobs are available but relocation may be necessary.
OBJECTIVE:
To identify trends regarding the geographic relocation of pathologists taking their first job after training.
DESIGN:
The College of American Pathologists (CAP) Graduate Medical Education Committee has sent an annual job search survey from 2012-2016 to CAP junior members and fellows in practice for 3 years or less and seeking their first job. Data were analyzed across demographics and geographic domains consisting of the following: stayed at same institution/city, relocated within the same region, or relocated to a different region. Standard statistical methods were used.
RESULTS:
Of 501 respondents, 421 reported completing combined anatomic pathology (AP)/clinical pathology (CP) training, while 80 reported AP- or CP-only training. Of the 421 AP/CP respondents, 109 (26%) stayed at the same institution or city, while of the 80 AP- or CP-only respondents, 36 (45%) stayed at the same institution or city. One hundred ninety-nine respondents completed surgical pathology fellowships with 124 (62%) general/oncologic surgical pathology and 75 (38%) subspecialty surgical pathology trainees. Job seekers who completed general surgical pathology/surgical oncologic pathology fellowship accounted for 34 of 52 (65%) of those remaining at the same institution or city, while those with subspecialty training accounted for 40 of 77 (52%) of those relocating to a different region. Relocation did not demonstrate any significant trends in regard to other demographics studied.
CONCLUSIONS:
The pathology job market appears stable with no precedent for geographic hardship.

 

[Thr0mbus]

Will I Need to Move to Get My First Job?: Geographic Relocation and Other Trends in the Pathology Job Market. - PubMed - NCBI

George MR1, Johnson KA1, Gratzinger DA1, Brissette MD1, McCloskey CB1, Conran RM1, Dixon LR1, Roberts CA1, Rojiani AM1, Shyu I1, Timmons CF Jr1, Hoffman RD1.


Abstract
CONTEXT:
There is an ongoing perception that the pathology job market is poor, which may be discouraging medical students from pursuing the specialty. Academic pathologists believe that jobs are available but relocation may be necessary.
OBJECTIVE:
To identify trends regarding the geographic relocation of pathologists taking their first job after training.
DESIGN:
The College of American Pathologists (CAP) Graduate Medical Education Committee has sent an annual job search survey from 2012-2016 to CAP junior members and fellows in practice for 3 years or less and seeking their first job. Data were analyzed across demographics and geographic domains consisting of the following: stayed at same institution/city, relocated within the same region, or relocated to a different region. Standard statistical methods were used.
RESULTS:
Of 501 respondents, 421 reported completing combined anatomic pathology (AP)/clinical pathology (CP) training, while 80 reported AP- or CP-only training. Of the 421 AP/CP respondents, 109 (26%) stayed at the same institution or city, while of the 80 AP- or CP-only respondents, 36 (45%) stayed at the same institution or city. One hundred ninety-nine respondents completed surgical pathology fellowships with 124 (62%) general/oncologic surgical pathology and 75 (38%) subspecialty surgical pathology trainees. Job seekers who completed general surgical pathology/surgical oncologic pathology fellowship accounted for 34 of 52 (65%) of those remaining at the same institution or city, while those with subspecialty training accounted for 40 of 77 (52%) of those relocating to a different region. Relocation did not demonstrate any significant trends in regard to other demographics studied.
CONCLUSIONS:
The pathology job market appears stable with no precedent for geographic hardship.

THESE ACADEMIC PATHOLOGISTS OFFER A JOB, PAYING LESS THAN THE JANITOR IN SOME CASES, TO THEIR FOREIGN NATIONAL JUNIOR PATHOLOGIST WHO DOESN'T HAVE ANY LOANS, AND CAN'T MAKE HARDLY ANYTHING IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY, PEANUTS FOR WHAT THEY DO AND THEN WRITE PAPERS ABOUT HOW GREAT THIS JOB MARKET IS!

WHAT A JOKE!!!

 

[MetroPath]

Will I Need to Move to Get My First Job?: Geographic Relocation and Other Trends in the Pathology Job Market. - PubMed - NCBI

George MR1, Johnson KA1, Gratzinger DA1, Brissette MD1, McCloskey CB1, Conran RM1, Dixon LR1, Roberts CA1, Rojiani AM1, Shyu I1, Timmons CF Jr1, Hoffman RD1.


Abstract
CONTEXT:
There is an ongoing perception that the pathology job market is poor, which may be discouraging medical students from pursuing the specialty. Academic pathologists believe that jobs are available but relocation may be necessary.
OBJECTIVE:
To identify trends regarding the geographic relocation of pathologists taking their first job after training.
DESIGN:
The College of American Pathologists (CAP) Graduate Medical Education Committee has sent an annual job search survey from 2012-2016 to CAP junior members and fellows in practice for 3 years or less and seeking their first job. Data were analyzed across demographics and geographic domains consisting of the following: stayed at same institution/city, relocated within the same region, or relocated to a different region. Standard statistical methods were used.
RESULTS:
Of 501 respondents, 421 reported completing combined anatomic pathology (AP)/clinical pathology (CP) training, while 80 reported AP- or CP-only training. Of the 421 AP/CP respondents, 109 (26%) stayed at the same institution or city, while of the 80 AP- or CP-only respondents, 36 (45%) stayed at the same institution or city. One hundred ninety-nine respondents completed surgical pathology fellowships with 124 (62%) general/oncologic surgical pathology and 75 (38%) subspecialty surgical pathology trainees. Job seekers who completed general surgical pathology/surgical oncologic pathology fellowship accounted for 34 of 52 (65%) of those remaining at the same institution or city, while those with subspecialty training accounted for 40 of 77 (52%) of those relocating to a different region. Relocation did not demonstrate any significant trends in regard to other demographics studied.
CONCLUSIONS:
The pathology job market appears stable with no precedent for geographic hardship.

I disagree with that conclusion. Based on the difficulty a friend had in the Northeast looking for a job and now my experience. He did find one job in academia.

I talked to a community pathologist on the phone who mentioned to me jobs in my area are by word of mouth.

 

[MetroPath]

What are your fellowships in? I'll consider you for a job.

From what I remember you are from Texas? I’m surgpath/cytopath trained.

Looking to stay close to home where my friends and family are.

If I can’t find anything locally, then I will definitely hit you up! Thank you!

 

[yaah]

Thanks for sharing your experience metropath - that meshes with a lot of what our group's experience has been and what people I know have experienced. From a group's perspective, the "hiring someone with no connections to the area" is a tough call. Many people are truly flexible and want to experience a new area -we have encoutered that. But others will lie about it. In my experience, the spouse's job or career path is also key - particularly if the spouse is also a pathologist. If you find a good candidate, you often have to have a way to woo the spouse, who may be a lawyer, psychiatrist, family doc, etc. If you can lock them both down that is a good sign - we have several members of our group who had no real connection to our area, but either married someone who did or were both flexible. But there is not much worse for a group than hiring someone who is looking to bail as soon as the Southern california job they really want opens up.

Your points about 1) Not being a jerk in training and 2) job openings are regional and cyclical are important - right now in our region there seem to be way more job ads than at any time in the last 15 years. Not all of them are great jobs but even those were sparser in the past. As far as being a jerk in training, I know from my years of experience of several individuals (in path and in other fields) who have had a job torpedoed because either a reference or a contact that wasn't listed as a reference spoke poorly of them. It's pretty hard to get residency program directors to not recommend a graduate of their program, but it actually does happen.

 

[cmz]

From what I remember you are from Texas? I’m surgpath/cytopath trained.

Looking to stay close to home where my friends and family are.

If I can’t find anything locally, then I will definitely hit you up! Thank you!

We're hiring and I've already made one new hire. So, there may not be a spot available. We are looking for someone who can do ROSE for EBUS/EUS procedures and handle general surgical pathology and non-gyn cytology workload.

 

[Unty]

4 months job search and only have one job offer. I guess this is the stable job market those job market publications are referring to. What a joke.

 

[path24]

1 job offer. Yeah, become a pathologist med students. Great idea.

Added bonus: We are currently in a pathologist shortage.

 

[Alteran]

4 months job search and only have one job offer. I guess this is the stable job market those job market publications are referring to. What a joke.

Name me another specialty where any graduate has only 1 job offer after 4 months of searching. Anyone?

 

[MetroPath]

Like I said, I had a friend who only got one offer and took it right away few years ago. Not sure how many she applied to but she seemed to be wary of the job market so took whatever she could get. Im being 100% honest.

There are plenty of jobs scattered across the country. I think Quest/Ameripath will always be hiring somewhere. I didn’t get a reply from a majority of employers/groups I applied to however.

The phone interviews I had, they never called back. One person I interviewed with in upstate NY said they were interviewing other candidates and basically im not being considered. She accidentally texted me saying she was looking forward to my interview with their group (but she texted the wrong person lol).

I talked with a large group out West. They said they considered me an excellent candidate based on the fellowship training I had. I had a phone interview and they haven’t responded back since lol. I emailed them asking if I’m being considered. No response.

I applied to a job in Orlando. They were looking for a cytopathologist. I fit the bill and applied. No response.

I think I applied to at least 20-30 places.

I’m hoping I get one of the two jobs near my home. Stay tuned.

 

[Med Director New England]

Metro - I admire your glass is half full optimism, but you are detailing at best a tough time landing the first job.

one FYI - large corporate labs (AP/Quest/Labcorp/corp GI & Derm spec labs) almost never hire a new grad. They typically look for 5+ yrs s/o experience.

Other specialties have new grads with the luxury of bidding up compensation / sign on bonuses from multiple offers and absolutely no geographic restrictions in their initial job search. Until the supply of pathologists is throttled a bit your experience will be the norm.

GL

 

[MetroPath]

Metro - I admire your glass is half full optimism, but you are detailing at best a tough time landing the first job.

one FYI - large corporate labs (AP/Quest/Labcorp/corp GI & Derm spec labsalmost never hire a new grad. They typically look for 5+ yrs s/o experience.

Other specialties have new grads with the luxury of bidding up compensation / sign on bonuses from multiple offers and absolutely no geographic restrictions in their initial job search. Until the supply of pathologists is throttled a bit your experience will be the norm.

GL

Thanks. I’ve read your posts and it is true the Northeast is a tight market as well. My buddy had a hard time but landed a job in academia. He wasn’t able to move because of his wife but got lucky.

I have a friend in NJ who hasn’t found a job yet. I’ll update you as to what he has found.

Yes my friends at Quest had a job before they moved there. There is a Quest job near my home and yes, they require 5 years experience. I’ve also seen a bunch of ads looking for at least three years experience.

Although there are jobs, you may not even get a reply from employers even though you have the fellowship they are looking for!

Ive cold called a few pathologists/groups near my hometown and will continue to do so. No positions available so far.

The thing is if you get 1-2 offers, my feeling is that you have to do with what you can get.

 

[deleted314957]

I have a friend that went on one interview and took the job after they offered it. I know one person who got an academic job in the same place he did his fellowship. So people are getting jobs.

Like I said, I had a friend who only got one offer and took it right away few years ago. Not sure how many she applied to but she seemed to be wary of the job market so took whatever she could get. Im being 100% honest.

There are plenty of jobs scattered across the country. I think Quest/Ameripath will always be hiring somewhere. I didn’t get a reply from a majority of employers/groups I applied to however.

The phone interviews I had, they never called back. One person I interviewed with in upstate NY said they were interviewing other candidates and basically im not being considered. She accidentally texted me saying she was looking forward to my interview with their group (but she texted the wrong person lol).

I talked with a large group out West. They said they considered me an excellent candidate based on the fellowship training I had. I had a phone interview and they haven’t responded back since lol. I emailed them asking if I’m being considered. No response.

I applied to a job in Orlando. They were looking for a cytopathologist. I fit the bill and applied. No response.

I think I applied to at least 20-30 places.

I’m hoping I get one of the two jobs near my home. Stay tuned.

Most of these potential employers have adopted the attitude of Hollywood talent agents, i.e.” it cost nothing to tell someone they are talented”.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[fiji128]

Name me another specialty where any graduate has only 1 job offer after 4 months of searching. Anyone?

Radiation Oncology. Same basic root issue, residency expansion over past 10 years has caused an over supply of new graduates compared to people wanting to hire them. Lots of similarities between rad onc's job market compared to pathology including most good jobs are filled by word of mouth because of the over supply, a professional organization that is entirely run by academics who have a financial interest in having an over supplied work force, the general attidude you that because someone gets a decent non exploitative job that means there are great jobs available for everyone and if you are a "good" resident who goes to a "nice" program and network well finding a job won't be an issue and existing rad oncs often don't retire and often practice well into their 70's and even 80's.

At least rad onc doesn't have to deal with fellowship stuff and the massive corporate ownership of private practice.

But I feel you. Almost everyone else I went to med school with, including specialist, have nearly zero trouble finding positions after training.

 

[MetroPath]

Radiation Oncology. Same basic root issue, residency expansion over past 10 years has caused an over supply of new graduates compared to people wanting to hire them. Lots of similarities between rad onc's job market compared to pathology including most good jobs are filled by word of mouth because of the over supply, a professional organization that is entirely run by academics who have a financial interest in having an over supplied work force, the general attidude you that because someone gets a decent non exploitative job that means there are great jobs available for everyone and if you are a "good" resident who goes to a "nice" program and network well finding a job won't be an issue and existing rad oncs often don't retire and often practice well into their 70's and even 80's.

At least rad onc doesn't have to deal with fellowship stuff and the massive corporate ownership of private practice.

But I feel you. Almost everyone else I went to med school with, including specialist, have nearly zero trouble finding positions after training.

Very well said especially the following “the general attidude you that because someone gets a decent non exploitative job that means there are great jobs available for everyone.”


If everyone gets one job offer does that mean the job market is great?

If that job is a corporate job like Quest or some outpatient lab, is the job market good?

If the only job you can get is in an undesirable city is the job market good?

If the only job offer you got was the one you took because you didn’t think you could get any other job, does that mean the market is good?

Some get multiple job offers but some do not.

If there are good and bad jobs available but the only job offer you got was from a so called bad job, is the job market then considered good?

If you get that good job, then great but I’m sure there are others vying for that position as well.

Two groups I talked to mentioned to me that they “could be picky” in terms of who they choose.

 

[gbwillner]

Radiation Oncology. Same basic root issue, residency expansion over past 10 years has caused an over supply of new graduates compared to people wanting to hire them. Lots of similarities between rad onc's job market compared to pathology including most good jobs are filled by word of mouth because of the over supply, a professional organization that is entirely run by academics who have a financial interest in having an over supplied work force, the general attidude you that because someone gets a decent non exploitative job that means there are great jobs available for everyone and if you are a "good" resident who goes to a "nice" program and network well finding a job won't be an issue and existing rad oncs often don't retire and often practice well into their 70's and even 80's.

At least rad onc doesn't have to deal with fellowship stuff and the massive corporate ownership of private practice.

But I feel you. Almost everyone else I went to med school with, including specialist, have nearly zero trouble finding positions after training.

2 of my best friends are RadOncs and they both agree with you.

 

[MetroPath]

Hello Dr.,

Thank you for checking in.

The department has moved forward with a candidate. I will let you know if anything changes.

Enjoy the rest of your day.

Another job:


Good morning. They are planning to interview another candidate soon. It has not been finalized yet.

I am sorry it is taking too long, but they are also waiting to hear from the first candidate they have offered a contract to. It depends on the result of those 2 things.

No response since.

These are emails I’ve been getting. At least they replied back to me. Most did not.

Just to let you all know. I’m not seeing a demand out there for a new grad. I’m being transparent and very open about my job search because I want others to see how difficult the job search has been despite what some people have been saying is a good or great job market (supported by data) or even worse, there is a shortage of pathologists.

I’m not asking for sympathy.

Just want people to know finding a job is challenging.

 

[D1b()4]

I agree with MetroPath. Job search was challenging for me as well. I ended up with two offers after searching for a couple of months, but that was it. In my experience, there is definitely no abundance of jobs or shortage of pathologists. The thought "I should have done radiology" definitely crossed my mind at least a couple of times during the job search.

 

[MetroPath]

I agree with MetroPath. Job search was challenging for me as well. I ended up with two offers after searching for a couple of months, but that was it. In my experience, there is definitely no abundance of jobs or shortage of pathologists. The thought "I should have done radiology" definitely crossed my mind at least a couple of times during the job search.

It seems like not many fellows looking for jobs post on here, so thanks for chiming in.

Here is a response from two more groups who I emailed that was looking for someone trained in Cytopathology.

Dr. :

I thank you for your interest in the advertised position. You were not chosen to go forward in the selection process. Good luck in your future endeavors.


Dear Dr.,

We believe that we have filled our positions. Should there be a change, we will contact you since we are aware that you are still interested.


So even if there are jobs across the country who are looking for the fellowship you trained in, most are looking at other candidates with a similar fellowship as well and you may not even get an interview.

These jobs arent in my home state as well. These are emails I’ve received in the past four months of looking for jobs.

 

[Sawback3]

I landed my first job fairly recently (last few years). I trained in the Northeast (medical school, residency, fellowship) and relocated to the Midwest. During fellowship I went on one interview, got an offer, and took the job. I'm very happy with my current position and the pay; however, the location is not exactly desirable. I do feel fortunate/lucky though. Not being geographically restricted did help, but it's not for everybody. Having to get lucky is not a sign of a strong job market, anyway.

 

[MetroPath]

Thanks for chiming in sawback3. I think posts like yours from current fellows is valuable. I agree with what you mentioned. Jobs are available. I know people who got one interview and took the job. They are happy it seems. That's good for them. All you need is one job that you are happy with I guess. There are jobs but some of these jobs are In what I consider undesirable locations. If you are ok with living in an undesirable location then the market is open for you, that is if you can get someone to interview you. The word "undesirable" is relative though. I agree its not for everyone and their families however.

From my experience, jobs that are available in more desirable cities are filled by word of mouth. A few are posted but most are filled by word of mouth (my own personal observation).

I called another group near my hometown and they mentioned they hired two pathologists late last year. The position was never advertised.

 

[Alteran]

It seems like not many fellows looking for jobs post on here, so thanks for chiming in.

Here is a response from two more groups who I emailed that was looking for someone trained in Cytopathology.

Dr. :

I thank you for your interest in the advertised position. You were not chosen to go forward in the selection process. Good luck in your future endeavors.


Dear Dr.,

We believe that we have filled our positions. Should there be a change, we will contact you since we are aware that you are still interested.


So even if there are jobs across the country who are looking for the fellowship you trained in, most are looking at other candidates with a similar fellowship as well and you may not even get an interview.

These jobs arent in my home state as well. These are emails I’ve received in the past four months of looking for jobs.

At least they're showing you more respect than they did me when I was applying for jobs a few years back. Out of 30 or so applications I sent out, only 1 group bothered to tell me they received it and another actually sent me a very generic rejection letter politely telling me to F off. I went on to do locums work for the experience and money because I ultimately had to make ends meet while saving what wasn't spent. I had every intention of retraining for an entirely different field of medicine if I didn't land a permanent job within 6 months to a year. Thankfully, the locums work landed me my first job within a few months.

There is definitely a catch 22 scenario in the workforce at the moment. Very few want fresh graduates and most want experienced pathologists. But how is one supposed to get experience without actually landing an attending gig and signing out? This nonsense could only happen when there's an absolute oversupply of pathologists. And, as has been stated in other threads, the lack of quality candidates flooding the field hasn't helped either.

 

[gbwillner]

...... This nonsense could only happen when there's an absolute oversupply of pathologists....

I'm not sure this is true. There are a lot of variables at play. It's easy to blame oversupply for anything and everything... but does this get to the nature of this problem?

Pathologists are having to continually work harder and more for the same money. If you need to hire another pathologist to pick up the slack of a retiring pathologist, it seems only normal that you would want someone who could handle the volume and had the experience needed to not have their hand held through the process.

With any new hire there will be a training period, I can only assume most partners will want to minimize that and get the new hire to productivity.

Additionally, the advertisement is not necessarily the minimum criteria for acceptance, rather than the wish list for the employer. They will take the most suitable individual they can.

I ask all of you a related question: would you hire a Medical Director who is in charge of management of your lab or department out of training? With no management experience? Probably not if you could help it.

Other specialties are different as well in that their day-to-day functions may not be as serious as diagnosing and staging cancer. General practitioners are likely seen by hospitals as cogs in a wheel that are easily replaced. I just don't think pathology works that way.

 

[MetroPath]

I'm not sure this is true. There are a lot of variables at play. It's easy to blame oversupply for anything and everything... but does this get to the nature of this problem?

Pathologists are having to continually work harder and more for the same money. If you need to hire another pathologist to pick up the slack of a retiring pathologist, it seems only normal that you would want someone who could handle the volume and had the experience needed to not have their hand held through the process.

With any new hire there will be a training period, I can only assume most partners will want to minimize that and get the new hire to productivity.

Additionally, the advertisement is not necessarily the minimum criteria for acceptance, rather than the wish list for the employer. They will take the most suitable individual they can.

I ask all of you a related question: would you hire a Medical Director who is in charge of management of your lab or department out of training? With no management experience? Probably not if you could help it.

Other specialties are different as well in that their day-to-day functions may not be as serious as diagnosing and staging cancer. General practitioners are likely seen by hospitals as cogs in a wheel that are easily replaced. I just don't think pathology works that way.

From my job search, there are currently groups looking to hire new grads. The job ads mention that new grads are welcome to apply. However, Some job ads mention they want, (from religiously looking at job ads for the past 4 months), at least 3, 4 or 5 years of experience.

whether you are competing with experienced attendings looking to change jobs is another story.

 

[Alteran]

Additionally, the advertisement is not necessarily the minimum criteria for acceptance, rather than the wish list for the employer. They will take the most suitable individual they can.

I ask all of you a related question: would you hire a Medical Director who is in charge of management of your lab or department out of training? With no management experience? Probably not if you could help it.

Other specialties are different as well in that their day-to-day functions may not be as serious as diagnosing and staging cancer. General practitioners are likely seen by hospitals as cogs in a wheel that are easily replaced. I just don't think pathology works that way.

That's not my experience when I was applying for a job a few years ago. If the posting said [whatever specialty or oddball combination of fellowships] with minimum 5 years experience, they not only meant it, but they found it too. And while I wouldn't hire a medical director straight out of fellowship, I was hired at my present position after 2 years experience out of training and already have my CLIA licenses maxed out with medical directorships four years later.

The problem with other specialties vs. pathology is that other specialities actually train you in how to actually function as said specialty. We've hired several pathologists over the years and they just couldn't function. They could make the diagnosis, but it was like watching a pilot showing up to work for the first time with a dangerously low amount of actual flight hours. No other specialty to my knowledge suffers this. Radiologists actually do reads throughout residency with their faculty, internists actually round and do the mechanics of clinic, surgeons actually get OR time, etc. You can argue the efficiencies of those clinical training programs and the amount of scut, but they are actually shown the day-to-day functions and nuances of their respective practices so its not a shock to them when they're cut loose. Pathology residents on the other hand may or may not get sufficient scope, preview, and/or sign-out time throughout their training and it shows. In addition, one year of fellowship usually doesn't fix 4 years of being farmed out as a PA - which is not what my group hires a pathologist to be.

So my base argument is that the field is replete with new graduates, who while not generally diagnostically insufficient, are incapable of functioning in a practice mechanistically. I and my associates are more than willing to help out with difficult cases, but we're not here to spoon-feed and babysit a new hire with respect to time and case management, when to call clinicians, how to write every report to be clinically relevant and useful, etc.

While anecdotal to my practice alone, we've hired 4 pathologists over the past 6 years. Three were fresh out of fellowship and only one from a very well respected program and fellowship is still with us; the other two lasted one 1 and 2 years respectively- one of which I was brought in to replace. The other we hired had 10 years experience, is in charge of an ancillary site, and is doing just fine.

 

[MetroPath]

That's not my experience when I was applying for a job a few years ago. If the posting said [whatever specialty or oddball combination of fellowships] with minimum 5 years experience, they not only meant it, but they found it too. And while I wouldn't hire a medical director straight out of fellowship, I was hired at my present position after 2 years experience out of training and already have my CLIA licenses maxed out with medical directorships four years later.

The problem with other specialties vs. pathology is that other specialities actually train you in how to actually function as said specialty. We've hired several pathologists over the years and they just couldn't function. They could make the diagnosis, but it was like watching a pilot showing up to work for the first time with a dangerously low amount of actual flight hours. No other specialty to my knowledge suffers this. Radiologists actually do reads throughout residency with their faculty, internists actually round and do the mechanics of clinic, surgeons actually get OR time, etc. You can argue the efficiencies of those clinical training programs and the amount of scut, but they are actually shown the day-to-day functions and nuances of their respective practices so its not a shock to them when they're cut loose. Pathology residents on the other hand may or may not get sufficient scope, preview, and/or sign-out time throughout their training and it shows. In addition, one year of fellowship usually doesn't fix 4 years of being farmed out as a PA - which is not what my group hires a pathologist to be.

So my base argument is that the field is replete with new graduates, who while not generally diagnostically insufficient, are incapable of functioning in a practice mechanistically. I and my associates are more than willing to help out with difficult cases, but we're not here to spoon-feed and babysit a new hire with respect to time and case management, when to call clinicians, how to write every report to be clinically relevant and useful, etc.

While anecdotal to my practice alone, we've hired 4 pathologists over the past 6 years. Three were fresh out of fellowship and only one from a very well respected program and fellowship is still with us; the other two lasted one 1 and 2 years respectively- one of which I was brought in to replace. The other we hired had 10 years experience, is in charge of an ancillary site, and is doing just fine.

I agree some pathology training programs don’t train residents well to work independently in practice. Thus, why groups hire based on word of mouth from people they trust from programs they trust so they don’t get burned with a new hire and have to go through the hiring process again.

 

[path24]

Real life job hunt showing why you don't go into pathology. Take it in med students, in path you hope you get that 1 job offer.

 

[bigt1mer]

I'm a 3rd year med student who was pretty set on doing pathology but this forum has me terrified. I guess I'm going to have to focus on another field like radiology now. I don't want to take a shot of having to do two fellowships and then be 34 with 300k in debt and unable to find a job.

 

[gbwillner]

I'm a 3rd year med student who was pretty set on doing pathology but this forum has me terrified. I guess I'm going to have to focus on another field like radiology now. I don't want to take a shot of having to do two fellowships and then be 34 with 300k in debt and unable to find a job.

I believe all the anecdotes posted here are true, but they are only that- anecdotes. MOST path residents do only 1 fellowship. Virtually all get jobs. Could the market be better? Sure. Might you have to relocate for a job? Probably. That reflects not only the market, but also a niche (small) field. Even in optimal market conditions you will probably need to relocate for a job.

Do what you like. If you go into another field because this forum scared you off, and then don't like your job, you may regret it.

 

[TGF beta1]

I am a recent graduate as well. Last year (while still in fellowship) I had 5 strong leads for jobs, most of them through the word of mouth. Had 2 interviews and got a job with which I am very happy. Now we are hiring for expansion position and I can see the process from the different perspective. Since the position is expansion, we can wait for the perfect candidate. That is why interviews are very selective and we can wait for the candidate that fits us best.

 

[Unty]

I believe all the anecdotes posted here are true, but they are only that- anecdotes. MOST path residents do only 1 fellowship. Virtually all get jobs. Could the market be better? Sure. Might you have to relocate for a job? Probably. That reflects not only the market, but also a niche (small) field. Even in optimal market conditions you will probably need to relocate for a job.

Do what you like. If you go into another field because this forum scared you off, and then don't like your job, you may regret it.

Most residents I know have done two. The only ones who have done one are forensic pppl and hemepath.

 

[Unty]

I am a recent graduate as well. Last year (while still in fellowship) I had 5 strong leads for jobs, most of them through the word of mouth. Had 2 interviews and got a job with which I am very happy. Now we are hiring for expansion position and I can see the process from the different perspective. Since the position is expansion, we can wait for the perfect candidate. That is why interviews are very selective and we can wait for the candidate that fits us best.

The key word here is “word of mouth”. There’s weak, mediocre, good and great candidates out there. With an oversupply, jobs are by word of mouth so you don’t get burned as a group from the mediocre and weak candidates. If you aren’t in the loop, then youre left to resort to Pathologyoutlines and compete with the other 60 applicants applying for a job.

why put out a job ad and get flooded by a bunch of applicants when you canfind someone by word of mouth?

that's why I recommend everyone to train where you want to work so you increase your chances of being in the loop.

I wonder how many jobs across the country are via word of mouth. That may be whythe jobs you see online arent representative of the job market across the country.

 

[Iceman24]

MOST path residents do only 1 fellowship.

With all respect to you this is not a correct statement. According to ASCP surveys MOST of the residents do 2 or more fellowships and this data is quite stable over the last few years.

 

[ElementMD]

Hello all,

Wanted to update you in regards to my job search.

I have been looking for a position since last October 2019. I applied broadly across the country to whatever job fits my fellowship training, just to see what I could get. I know I wouldn’t be happy living in the places I applied to but I just applied to see what type of response I would get.

I received several phone interviews and have been on very few interviews. From my 3-4 month job search, I realized that there ARE jobs but they are scattered across the country. Some areas are tighter than others in regards to jobs. If you are geographically flexible, there are jobs.

However, from my experience, it seems that employers are more willing to interview those who are local or who have family ties to the area. This is not surprising as you don’t want a pathologist to leave in a year or two. Also, they would have to pay the cost of the flight and accommodations if they were to fly you in for an interview, if you were out of state.

Why would you fly someone in to interview when they have no connections/ties to the area? So what I am trying to say is that although there are jobs across the country, I feel like I haven’t been invited to interview at some places because I had NO ties to the area and I was just applying to get a job. I mentioned to the recruiter that I was “geographically flexible” but I still haven’t heard back.

Most of these recruiters will ask you if you have any ties to the area. I think saying “I have a friend living there” or “I visited there once” would NOT be a good answer.

Based on my online search for jobs, there are jobs with partnership positions out there. So, that’s a positive. There are a bunch of academic positions, which I have no interest in. There are several VA jobs in cities I would not be happy living in. There are jobs at Quest and big corporations scattered across the country. I’d rather not work for Quest, but if I have to, I will take it.


I called a practice near my hometown and one of the practice managers mentioned they never advertised their jobs online and hire based on personal referral from nearby institutions (call some attending who was their mentor during training). Ive also heard this as a means of recruiting from this forum and others I talked to online.

Since everyone gets a job, I think it’s an ok job market. I don’t think it’s a good one however. You can only have so many pathologists in a group or hospital. If there is no one retiring, then you are out of luck.

I also talked to pathologists who are working in cities which have been considered a “tight job market” on here and they said that everyone seems to find a job in the area, another positive note.

I have friends who are attendings now that mentioned to me finding your first job without signout experience is difficult. I had a friend who applied to 20-25 jobs 5 years ago and only got 3 interviews. I talked to the president of a group who told me 10-15 years ago, the number of jobs online was much less than what we are seeing now. So I think the job market may have improved compared to previous years.

In summary, although there are jobs, you may not even be considered if you are not from the area or don’t have any ties to the area. So what I would recommend to everyone is to do your training in the area you want to work. That is the best way to get a job (personal referral from an attending in your fellowship program to the employer).

Make as many friends as possible and don't be that crazy/difficult person in residency that no one wants to work with. Don’t be that jerk who badmouths others. Don’t be that fellow who yells at junior residents. Don’t be that resident who doesn’t talk to anyone in the department.

If you go to a lesser known institution for residency, make sure you go to a top tier place for fellowship. When you are getting interviewed, people will look at the places you trained. A reputable, well known institution will set you apart from others and can help you land a good job. Please do not go to a lesser known place for fellowship. Training pedigree is important.

Thank you for this detailed, insightful post. Best of luck to you and please update us when you accept an offer.

 

[Unty]

I am a recent graduate as well. Last year (while still in fellowship) I had 5 strong leads for jobs, most of them through the word of mouth. Had 2 interviews and got a job with which I am very happy. Now we are hiring for expansion position and I can see the process from the different perspective. Since the position is expansion, we can wait for the perfect candidate. That is why interviews are very selective and we can wait for the candidate that fits us best.

Yup my impression is that bigger groups with partnership potential can be picky. Especially if they are near a desirable oversaturated city.

They don’t need to advertise by word of mouth unless they absolutely have to.

I talked with a recruiter just yesterday who mentioned that if you need to hire a recruiter for a job in a more desirable city there is something wrong with the job.

Those groups with partnership potential in less desirable cities although not completely rural may have to.

Medical students, if you go into this field, do your training where you want to work so you Have a better chance of being in this word of mouth loop.

 

[CellularTherapist]

I can share my anecdotal experience as well as a current fellow.
Was between academics and private and started looking. Shared my CV with a few people I had made connections with in my area of fellowship (which I choose because I wanted to stay in the area). My fellowship department offered me a position and I got an invite to interview from one of the connections. I decided to stay on in my department. It is not the highest pay but right for me currently.

Other than me, the one coresident I talk to the most is staying on at their fellowship institution, and of my cofellows, one has a position and the other is still looking but getting interviews.

So if you just looked at my situation, you could think the market is great, I never officially "applied" to jobs but got two invites to interview and a position quickly. But my experience is only one of many. On the whole things seem to be getting better but geographic and practice environment flexibility seem to be needed at the moment.

Just my 2 cents

 

[Unty]

I can share my anecdotal experience as well as a current fellow.
Was between academics and private and started looking. Shared my CV with a few people I had made connections with in my area of fellowship (which I choose because I wanted to stay in the area). My fellowship department offered me a position and I got an invite to interview from one of the connections. I decided to stay on in my department. It is not the highest pay but right for me currently.

Other than me, the one coresident I talk to the most is staying on at their fellowship institution, and of my cofellows, one has a position and the other is still looking but getting interviews.

So if you just looked at my situation, you could think the market is great, I never officially "applied" to jobs but got two invites to interview and a position quickly. But my experience is only one of many. On the whole things seem to be getting better but geographic and practice environment flexibility seem to be needed at the moment.

Just my 2 cents

Based on your name CellularTherapist, sounds like you are an academic/research type. If so, academic jobs in my opinion are easier to find and get, especially if your department likes you. There are a bunch of academic jobs out there (more than half of academic jobs are based at AHCs) and if any medical student was interested in academic Pathology I would definitely recommend him or her to do Pathology.

Private jobs are out there as well. Plentiful? I don’t think so but they are out there across the country and some (how many, I don’t know) of them are via word of mouth. Do I think there are more jobs than in the past? Yes I do. Do I think some of these private jobs are getting a bunch of CVs from candidates across the country still? Yes I do. Just because there are jobs scattered across the country, how many of those you apply for will interview you?

I think if you wanted to do academics you shouldn’t have a hard time finding a job in Pathology.

Just because you and all your academic friends found jobs does not make the job market strong.

 

[CellularTherapist]

Based on your name CellularTherapist, sounds like you are an academic/research type. If so, academic jobs in my opinion are easier to find and get, especially if your department likes you. There are a bunch of academic jobs out there (more than half of academic jobs are based at AHCs) and if any medical student was interested in academic Pathology I would definitely recommend him or her to do Pathology.

Private jobs are out there as well. Plentiful? I don’t think so but they are out there across the country and some (how many, I don’t know) of them are via word of mouth. Do I think there are more jobs than in the past? Yes I do. Do I think some of these private jobs are getting a bunch of CVs from candidates across the country still? Yes I do. Just because there are jobs scattered across the country, how many of those you apply for will interview you?

I think if you wanted to do academics you shouldn’t have a hard time finding a job in Pathology.

Just because you and all your academic friends found jobs does not make the job market strong.

Well thank you for making assumptions based on the name I picked for a forum... I actually am not particularly an academic type but I guess there is no way to prove that to anyone.

I am not of the mind that the market is "strong" or there are "plentiful" jobs, just sharing my experience. Sorry to stray from your narrative or experience.

 

[Unty]

Well thank you for making assumptions based on the name I picked for a forum... I actually am not particularly an academic type but I guess there is no way to prove that to anyone.

I am not of the mind that the market is "strong" or there are "plentiful" jobs, just sharing my experience. Sorry to stray from your narrative or experience.

My narrative is that the job market is not strong and jobs are not plentiful, which you agree with, so you aren’t straying from my narrative at all. Therefore no apologies needed.